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Awesome idea for a thread, you have inspired me to give it a shot even though I am more focused on developing youngsters than the tactical side of things. This might be fun, I will give it a shot with Leipzig in the Bundesliga.

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Posted (edited)

Something a little different this, given every other thread is focussed on imposing our own ideas onto the opponent. Lyon are a great team to manage this year too, Caqueret is an absolute gem and for a guy with attributes in all the right places I think Lucas Tousart is one of the best DMs around.

Edited by zlatanera

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Posted (edited)

Other Formation Matchups

A good match to hold up vs the PSG game as a mistake to learn from is the 0-0 with R Madrid. 

They played the same formation as PSG and virtually the same roles. Yet I attempted a mirror match. Again, the space for my playmaker is in DM, and the exploit is their WBs so Clarke got another outing as Winger (a) and Terrier played as IF(s). 

The key difference here, looking retrospectively having seen the success vs PSG, is that I don't threaten the #10 space. I'm using a BWM(d) focussed on breaking up Kroos and Modric and a fairly lame BBM (no ppms or attribute set inclined to really exploit forward runs). So whilst my playmaker has time and space on the ball the options were limited - and we wont have been pulling Casemiro out of position enough. 

A boring 0-0 where we did have more possession and shots but essentially not enough guile. 

1983988210_vsmadrid41221.thumb.PNG.11cef321a612f4db65be434857298abb.PNG

175251388_madridmatchstats.thumb.PNG.66f423115da87f8d1546aa903735280b.PNG

Some other formation matchups from early games 

Here's where the UI is awful, the CMs appear so deep! But both teams are playing 4231, using an AP in AMC because they have no DM. A CM(d) to break their AM and a BBM to get up and down. Same vs Dijon and Marseille - a draw and a win... Dijon had a lower mentality and my double IF probably didn't stretch them enough. 

2039325998_vsdijon4231.thumb.PNG.e2ed4153972deaf06dfcee8dccdf8649.PNG

1501033239_vsmarseille4231.thumb.PNG.6cee19ed5d14871b13230f0595977fc5.PNG

Here my opponent had good defensive width so I chose to make it a battle of midfield and outnumber them centrally. They were deep which allowed me to use WB for attacking width. This worked nicely. DLP at the base as they had no AMC. 

1038780809_vsnice4-2dm-1-2-1.thumb.PNG.6d9be8ee2f636c176a5825218e65604a.PNG

Again poor UI - they are playing standard 4231, I went with 2DMs - RPM and SV with an AMC to link play. 

702034578_vsreims4-2dm-3-1.thumb.PNG.ce6856999ebbf20fa24576c693fc720f.PNG

Edited by westy8chimp

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quick question, didn't the SV + RMP combo leave you too exposed in the middle? especially since they had an AMC. Or did you manage to lay siege to their box and set camp in their half? was it a matter of using defensive midfielders with good Anticipation/positioning in more creative roles?

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2 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

quick question, didn't the SV + RMP combo leave you too exposed in the middle? especially since they had an AMC. Or did you manage to lay siege to their box and set camp in their half? was it a matter of using defensive midfielders with good Anticipation/positioning in more creative roles?

Keeping the fbs on support kept things stable... Meant worst case was often going to be equal numbers. But SV and RPM are quite good in the DM position... They stay back when the opponent builds but get forward adequately when you attack... Only really going to get caught out by a more attacking side. This was at away to Reims we had 58% possession but got hurt on set pieces. Fekir bagged a brace from amc... Just looking now I think my mistake was using Dembele as an AF... He played poorly so was possibly isolated.. Or the build up too slow to utilise an AF. I've hit that problem a couple of times so in the last match vs Psg using a CF has helped. And in most other games I'm using dlf or f9... Learning as we go what works and what doesn't against types of team and formation. 

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 I love this thread. it just makes total sense and is making me look at the game in a different way all together now. I was never a good tactics creator and always wanted to look for the mythical tactic that would smack everyone unrealistically.

From your thread, im taking the following basic points, would this be a fair summary?

1) Using playmakers in areas the opposition are giving up space to you, to give them the maximum room to operate in.

2) Isolate the areas of weakness you think they have and combat this with attack duties, or with players who can individually dominate their opponent with specific attributes

3) When facing a low block defence, the ability to get runners from deep is an essential (id normally start going aerial to a target man, i now wont)

4) Place more emphasis on building a versatile squad that can perform different roles effectively.

 

Does this thread also demonstrate tactical familiarity isnt as important as we thought it might be?

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

) Using playmakers in areas the opposition are giving up space to you, to give them the maximum room to operate in.

Yes absolutely. 

2) Isolate the areas of weakness you think they have and combat this with attack duties, or with players who can individually dominate their opponent with specific attributes

Yes... Doesnt need to be attack duty player... But some way either role, duty or combination of positions to try and exploit a weak area

 

Quote

4) Place more emphasis on building a versatile squad that can perform different roles effectively

Yes... Previously I've written about creating a style proactively and then buying the perfect player for the role/s... Here it's not about the players... They have to perform roles outside their comfort zone for the benefit of formation/tactical advantages

 

57 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

) When facing a low block defence, the ability to get runners from deep is an essential (id normally start going aerial to a target man, i now wont)

This one not so cut and dry... I don't like rules/absolutes... Or statements that make anything seem like it's the solution. I'm sure in my leverkusen series I wrote one season about constantly facing low block so I basically played 6 in the am/ST strata to bombard them. However, yes I've certainly approached this season with fresh eyes and when looking for specific space.. Against a low block... That space is a lot deeper and makes sense to use it. I think it's something to try out in different ways and see how you get on. 

 

Edited by westy8chimp

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So my first matches of the pre-season were horrible. two 1-1 draws against weaker opposition where we didn't really with a game plan because I am bad at making tactics.

then we had to face CSKA Moscow in a friendly game. Not the hardest challenge but still a tough encounter for us.

1748057715_CSKAMoscow.thumb.png.39d6b913ad291b7287b11160d3cefc33.png

Their tactical setup intrigued me, on principle they were parking the bus with three central defenders a defensive midfielder and a ball winning midfielder to really fortify the centre. However their mentality was attacking so I couldn't be sure they would just sit on their own half.

My initial tactic looked like this:

1146071563_Tactic1.thumb.png.81d7e33b8e88be468c7c19d6e1111b10.png

I was meant to use what I thought would be their deep defensive positions against them by giving Havertz the space and time on the ball to lay out a pass to Almirón, Bruma, Sambitzer or Cunha. The possession heavy instructions were meant to be countered by our mentality.

Because of our tactic or by complete accident Sabitzer scored two goals in the first 14 minutes so I decide to tone things down considerably:

1555837927_Tactic2.thumb.png.c46930c2b346e6dabd5ad5016213efd7.png

I didn't choose any on the ball instructions because I did not know how I wanted my team to play when on the ball.

After the 60 minutes mark we were winning 3-0 so I decided to make a double substitution to seal the game:

1711170456_Tactic3.thumb.png.bb6890f8aafccf58ea20791391059fd8.png

Even with this clearly defensive set up we managed to score a fourth goal.

4-0.thumb.png.49b1086a831309e8c60d3bf065f93156.png

 

SO my question here is, was this a legitimate good reading of the game from my part where my tactics make at least a modicum of sense or was this just a gigantic fluke, I am really not used to winning like this with a tactic of my own.

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@Ouroboros I like what you went with... Good roles for the fbs to get forward with your wingers and attack their weak flanks. Regista in plenty of space... And good to see you dive straight into the theme by playing Havertz deep... Not frightened of the 'red circle' :)

You can't read too much into one game... But when you win 4-0 it can't be bad. 

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3 minutes ago, matiz96 said:

It would be useful for an opponent 4-4-2.

I've pretty much reached mid season and not faced a single 442 yet! 

Hopefully I will as that should be the easiest to exploit... I'd be playing between their lines with DM and am for sure

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Great thread as always Westy. I think the most interesting aspect is keeping playing style the same... I think most people when trying to adapt to the opposition mainly alter their style, to either take advantage of space in behind or limit their own, but this is a very different way and I’m liking it :thup:

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

I've pretty much reached mid season and not faced a single 442 yet! 

Hopefully I will as that should be the easiest to exploit... I'd be playing between their lines with DM and am for sure

I tried your solutions and against the spurs I won 4-1 at their stadium.I played "foxes"..I am just missing solutions against 4-4-2 or 5-2-2-1

Edited by matiz96

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Great thread this - it's the way I've done it for years. I have my two 'stock' tactics saved - one positive one cautious - plus a balanced 'vanilla' framework. 

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9 hours ago, jc577 said:

Great thread as always Westy. I think the most interesting aspect is keeping playing style the same... I think most people when trying to adapt to the opposition mainly alter their style, to either take advantage of space in behind or limit their own, but this is a very different way and I’m liking it :thup:

Yes I'll do a bit on this later... Its hindered me vs a couple of teams where a more direct route was necessary... Adds to the challenge... One team played 4 players in AM strata in a striker less 424 and we couldn't play out from the back at all they kept swarming us... Got a lucky 0-0 but was one of the first games I was completely outplayed. 

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Really good westy :thup:.

Would be interesting to turn this into another tactical challenge for others to learn from and learn more about analysing and adapting to the opposition.

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Midseason

Unbeaten in all comps - although that hasn't helped me in the CL - 5 clean sheets out of the 6 games and 0 defeats but still knocked out, with a measly 8pts from 5 draws and a win! 

My two toughest opponents so far have been Dortmund and Madrid. Two 0-0 with Madrid but in games I was on the backfoot. 

They dominated me with a 424 strikerless - made it very difficult to play out from the back

2138998313_vsmadridp2scoutreport.thumb.PNG.4696924f909f227760cfb4a30d65d403.PNG699156415_vsmadridp2tactic.thumb.PNG.322e3b61f278f9725c58083497eeb986.PNG1748309211_vsmadridp2424strikerless.thumb.PNG.3cd70da8db0792b3320b7f7b02ea17c2.PNG

 

Gaps in the central midfield - so playmaker in the middle looking now I probably should have gone for a box defence with a second defensive minded DM .. instead I focussed more on dominating midfield with a flat 4 in all the space. F9 to link. 4141 had been working excellently for me. 

The issue I had was they pressed very high and closed down urgently - my cbs were caught on the ball and my DM often had to play long and concede possession to avoid the press. 

At HT I changed DM to HB to try and make it easier to keep the ball at the back... I also changed the AP to a DLP to come deeper to pick up possession. I changed my IW to support whilst giving Ndombele the more attacking responsibility. The changes were to no avail and we were dominated throughout and got a lucky 0-0. This is one example where in normal gameplay with no self imposed restrictions - you would kill them by going a little more direct

260754371_vsmadridp2htchanges.thumb.PNG.dece7d04a5894307a87fb93061a7815e.PNG1747923514_vsmadridp2ftstats.thumb.PNG.10005990eed2013048c5321760d18b5e.PNG

 

Dortmund were also a problem. They played a 4231 wide with very good choice of roles. I think when I wrote about my Leverkusen 4231 I suggested it was the formation that I believed gave best coverage of the whole pitch. And that's still how I feel when I see a scout report and try to find holes in it. 

250575921_dortmundscoutreport.thumb.PNG.d14ee96a94c08c30921ca55c354105e2.PNG

They don't have a DM so I was going to use playmaker in AMC. The trouble is how to get the ball past 2 solid CMs and the high press from front 4. So I went double playmaker with a DLP. 

The threats are central and wide... they have a DLP to build out from the back … there is nothing weak about this setup... however, BWM is a role I often avoid using, especially in a midfield duo... and the wing back alongside made that side of the pitch more appealing than the other. So for lack of any bright ideas I thought Id go assymetrical and overload the bwm/wb in the hope I could get past them or draw them into getting booked. 

In overloading the left I was torn between a right adjusted SS or the RMD. I went with RMD (he didn't get a kick so I changed to SS at HT!) 

657454701_tacticvsdortmund.thumb.PNG.1281e228594c89976b977ae8f0129545.PNG

We didn't really dominate the left hand side, altho my goals did come from traore and aouar… it was another game in which we were lucky to come away with a point. 

819842493_vsdortmundft.thumb.PNG.1b8d6dd68b495238e7192442aa2df2fe.PNG

The Aouar goal was quite nice and shows the overload working a bit, with the BWM pulled out of position early in the move by DLP/AP combo. Then the space on the right hand side was for the FB (by this stage the RMD is now a right adjusted SS). 

964221243_clgroup.thumb.PNG.a8266bd3f4e2d3595b06a2faa1ec8c0d.PNG

Never mind Europa might be more fun!

Here's the schedule for first half of the season - plenty of clean sheets - shows perhaps nullifying the opponent is easier than exploiting them?! 

205586956_midseasonresults.thumb.PNG.3f76450919c9d7dbba6f7a451da8c655.PNG

No major surprise we dominate the possession and defending stats. 

1033362610_midseasonteamstats.thumb.PNG.c4bcc66b9498e6fc3fa4c97281819540.PNG

 

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10 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Really good westy :thup:.

Would be interesting to turn this into another tactical challenge for others to learn from and learn more about analysing and adapting to the opposition.

I'm facing a lot of 4141 and 4231 which I think are really hard to pick holes in... so would be good to get several different perspectives on approach to those formations. I've found my preferred solution:

Spoiler

(4-2(dm)-3-1) using Anchor Man and RPM with all 4 attackers on support IFx2, AM, DLF/F9

 

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False 9 - 4141

Not overly relevant to the thread, but I had some unfinished business with the False 9 role from my FM18 efforts. One of three things is happening here; 

1) 4141 is a really good formation to use with a False 9 (when building out from the back) 

2) the False 9 role has been improved in FM19? 

3) The ME has improved to allow the False 9 to thrive? 

Maybe it's just me... the False 9 seems pretty damn good for me this time round... coming much deeper and linking up more than I've seen before. In this clip he is the player linking everything together - it's Depay. Away to Montpellier 4-0

1611880180_vsmontpellier42dm21.thumb.PNG.7f46e6b1f4a2ba216b2f7e1121a33559.PNG333789723_vsmontpellier4141.thumb.PNG.12717e06841aa4623369c16067b11210.PNG441596861_vsmontpellier.thumb.PNG.95a07e48b2345467a08894370ec61d58.PNG

Same tactic i'd used previously against the 42dm211 - but this time they are using an IW on the right, so I've put my DLP and winger on that side with IW and CM on the other. 

The F9 starts to drop deep each time we advance near the half way line.. he collects the ball on the edge of semi circle and then for the rest of the move acts like a proper support player, staying close to the ball carriers and offering himself, and it's lovely to see 3 of the midfield 4 move beyond him at one point of the move. 

 

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Posted (edited)

This way and bringing players only base on their stats gave me the most enjoyable time in fm. Hope you don't mind if I'm joining the show.:D

You may also take a look at the opponent last game positional heat map. I'm playing with FC Cartagena; took them from 3rd league to La Liga and here is my recent game against Getafe.

 

getafe2.thumb.png.15cce952cdd62de0748639ccf8a72521.png

Getafe1.thumb.png.d980a00c44f65b802f03b8b816514c39.png Getafe1a.thumb.png.a6e15e71bc4bbb933323a06f32309d35.png

Here is Getafe's 3-2 win heat map against Valencia. From the beginning we saw that they have 4 major gaps that we can exploit and also we must be aware of their very attacking left flank, a destroyer may be employed there (I opted for a simple CM(d)).

 

2114259870_cartastart.thumb.png.c006806d787a03365905f11a3639936b.png

I started with a pretty aggressive 4231 knowing also that is theirs most vulnerable tactic to face: 

  • I opted for an AP(s) to roam around in that gap between their defense and their middle;
  • I opted for an IF(a) to attack that gap on the left;
  • I opted for a W(a) to put pressure on that right attacking fullback and to create chaos when he will try to overlap that flank;
  • I opted for an AF to put pressure on their CDs. I had in mind their nr.6, that from the heat map may look like a stopper. Also, the AF's "move into channels" is a most here and my striker PM "like to try to beat offside trap", mean that he will put a lot of pressure on theirs CDs.

 

They played in the same manner as against Valencia and after the first goal I changed to a 41221. Theirs huge gap on the left is like bagging for a MEZ(a) - IF(s) and WB(s) to create chaos there.

carta2.thumb.png.366906b28ab277da3c0f7b208a27f377.png

 

The final stats: total domination:D

555094636_getafestats.thumb.png.5fd85cb547d0b4d36cdc28daa5d3db49.png

Edited by IL Luce

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Paris Part 2

They haven't learned and history repeats itself. The only difference from the first game is that this time their right side looks weaker so I've flipped my tactic from the first meeting, putting the Regista and winger to my left. 

1077838623_parisp2scoutreport.thumb.PNG.30299a573fa6d600bd447d2f2ee3aec3.PNG1575770734_vspsgtactic.thumb.PNG.f20dad010e032b6651a398ed0b2d11f6.PNG1600359926_vsparismatchup.thumb.PNG.c0d8ec2d54e77a9633a351377f3ef63c.PNG

 

1796682783_parisht.thumb.PNG.bbee81f9849517eea9f4bd00fb72c53c.PNG1421694170_parisft.thumb.PNG.d7367fa2e4d6967cfb14f4d333c1064d.PNG

Restricted them again, though they did score off a set piece this time. We opened them up like a tin of beans with 9 shots coming from inside the area. The goals show how useful we are in the turnover, and the solid base formation you see in these clips is why they struggle to get into attack. 

 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, naufal husain said:

Great stuff mate, as always. Just one question.

 

How about training?

Sorry, i do nothing with training... Limited playing time and my fav part of FM is tactics and transfers, so I just leave training to the coaches. 

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3 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

Sorry, i do nothing with training... Limited playing time and my fav part of FM is tactics and transfers, so I just leave training to the coaches. 

Oh that's great. I've also had limited times playing fm this year. Feels so sad. Thanks for the reply

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@duesouth thanks for joining in and good effort vs the 442.

I'll also add, I've completely fallen in love with fb-s again... Such a good role. Think for a long while previous to my current save I've gone with wb-s or fb-a... And it's trying to force things too much. The fb-s does brilliant in recycling possession... But will drive forward with the ball or off the ball at the right time. Its definitely a role key to my success so far with lyon. 

I faced my first 442 eventually vs RBL in the Europa League. Away in Norway for work at the moment but when I get back I was going to show my plan and the outcome (spoiler... I did win but not really how the game plan was intended! My plan completely failed and I don't know why) 

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Posted (edited)

Very interesting! This inspired me to give it a go myself.

So here we go:

Scouting report:

image.thumb.png.dc61c25a11c1beda3b2648179cac0090.png

Game plan:

So they are going with a balanced 4-2-3-1. There is space between the central defenders and the midfielders and between the wide players.

I will play my playmaker in the AM position.

Their right wing back, Janko, seems a bit more advanced than the rest of their defence so I guess he will be more attacking. Checking his profile and see PPM's like "Gets forward whenever possible" and "Runs with ball down right" confirms this. On the same side, there is a BMW which tend to press aggressively, which again will open for space behind him.

I will play an attacking winger on my left side to exploit this.

They seem to want to crowd the middle of the final third with their inside forwards, advanced playmaker and B2B midfielder. I have to be wary of this. Especially on my left side where their attacking wing back will also be going up and down.

A CM(D) and a FB(S) is appointed to try to shut this down. I changed my mind with the CM(D), seeing they also got a pressing forward I decided to move my left midfielder down to DM position and give him the DM(D) role to really help out my defense.

My plan of attack is to exploit the space on their right side by using as mentioned a W(A) on my left side. To emphasize this I want to try to drag the defenders away from that area as well.

My striker will have a DLF(S) role. Hoping that he will drag the central defenders out of position before passing either directly to my attacking winger or to my playmaker who then will make the next pass. The winger will then go for goal himself or make a cross to the other side where there hopefully will be space for my inside forward to exploit.

My formation ends up like this:

image.thumb.png.6cbcdf20dcedb2777b1cf2171195ef75.png

 

Result:

image.thumb.png.45cc49f0b61e2441e3e19784413ea5f2.png

 

A bit disappointing draw. We were leading 2-1 and I changed my B2B to a CM(S) to help out the midfield more.
Late in the match, they changed to a 4-2-4. I tried to counter with moving my playmaker to the DM position with the DLP(D) role which now had a lot of space. Moved the AMC down to CM with a CM(S) role and changed the other CM(S) back to a B2B. But in the 89th minute, they managed to score and the match dragged out until the final whistle.

Summary:

We had a lot of long shots which indicates that my players did not have enough support or passing options. Here are the match stats:

image.thumb.png.5f8d288aac420a1b6b2de4ebc02b409b.png

But I'm not giving up. I want to learn from this and keep going. So any input is helpful.

Was my analysis of their formation and weaknesses/strengths correct?

Did I come up with a good game plan?

Did I choose the right formation for the task?

Was my choice of roles reasonable?

Should I have reacted differently when they changed their formation?

Edited by Continum

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9 hours ago, Continum said:

Very interesting! This inspired me to give it a go myself.

So here we go:

Scouting report:

image.thumb.png.dc61c25a11c1beda3b2648179cac0090.png

Game plan:

So they are going with a balanced 4-2-3-1. There is space between the central defenders and the midfielders and between the wide players.

I will play my playmaker in the AM position.

Their right wing back, Janko, seems a bit more advanced than the rest of their defence so I guess he will be more attacking. Checking his profile and see PPM's like "Gets forward whenever possible" and "Runs with ball down right" confirms this. On the same side, there is a BMW which tend to press aggressively, which again will open for space behind him.

I will play an attacking winger on my left side to exploit this.

They seem to want to crowd the middle of the final third with their inside forwards, advanced playmaker and B2B midfielder. I have to be wary of this. Especially on my left side where their attacking wing back will also be going up and down.

A CM(D) and a FB(S) is appointed to try to shut this down. I changed my mind with the CM(D), seeing they also got a pressing forward I decided to move my left midfielder down to DM position and give him the DM(D) role to really help out my defense.

My plan of attack is to exploit the space on their right side by using as mentioned a W(A) on my left side. To emphasize this I want to try to drag the defenders away from that area as well.

My striker will have a DLF(S) role. Hoping that he will drag the central defenders out of position before passing either directly to my attacking winger or to my playmaker who then will make the next pass. The winger will then go for goal himself or make a cross to the other side where there hopefully will be space for my inside forward to exploit.

My formation ends up like this:

image.thumb.png.6cbcdf20dcedb2777b1cf2171195ef75.png

 

Result:

image.thumb.png.45cc49f0b61e2441e3e19784413ea5f2.png

 

A bit disappointing draw. We were leading 2-1 and I changed my B2B to a CM(S) to help out the midfield more.
Late in the match, they changed to a 4-2-4. I tried to counter with moving my playmaker to the DM position with the DLP(D) role which now had a lot of space. Moved the AMC down to CM with a CM(S) role and changed the other CM(S) back to a B2B. But in the 89th minute, they managed to score and the match dragged out until the final whistle.

Summary:

We had a lot of long shots which indicates that my players did not have enough support or passing options. Here are the match stats:

image.thumb.png.5f8d288aac420a1b6b2de4ebc02b409b.png

But I'm not giving up. I want to learn from this and keep going. So any input is helpful.

Was my analysis of their formation and weaknesses/strengths correct?

Did I come up with a good game plan?

Did I choose the right formation for the task?

Was my choice of roles reasonable?

Should I have reacted differently when they changed their formation?

I think you isolated your winger way too much there, with that DM on defense. You created a huge gap there. Your BTB or at least a DM on support should be there and in this way your aggressive winger would have had another passing option in case your playmaker would have been marked. Also a CM or DM on defense on the right would have had protected you much better against their AML that seems to be on attack duty and also you had their BTB there that tried to constant be in or around your box. Basically you gave them what they looked for: a huge gap in your right flank so that theirs aggressive AML to exploit.

image.png.7b6403c084582510add92962b3eba8c4.thumb.png.b8564a73d70cad03911bf27eebd8a70c.png

 

Against 424: Against a 424, especially if they play with 2xIF you need to understand that you will have 4 constant players in your box and every mistake or any lazy fullback that can’t track back well will cost you. You need to protect your flanks.

 

I actually played against a 424. I preferred a 42(DM)31, with a DM(d) and a REG in the middle, this way I had 2 DMs that helped much better my defense but also I could exploited theirs fragile midfield with my AMC and REG, especially REG(Massengo in this game) with his default “take more risk” PI, that can spray some long passes and create some beautiful counter opportunities when they attack you with 4 or more players.

424.thumb.png.e86afae976ca94eba71ab4a4a5e06977.png

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A bit curious. Now you have your possession based mentality, but do you think your analysis part would differ if you played a counter attack based style?

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@Continum thanks for your input and giving it a go. I think your analysis was excellent, and the plan on how to defend and exploit was well thought out. I agree with @IL Luce that you isolated your winger too much in the execution. I've never been a huge fan of a lopsided dm/cm partnership either, I think it allows the opponent to double up on them one at a time. Imagine two armies, one has 50 men the other has 100 … but the army with a 100 men decides to split into 10 groups of 10 and defend separate areas.. the 50 men will overwhelm each in turn! 

4231 is definitely the hardest formation to both attack and defend at the same time... the space is definitely in AM position but you need to defend the DM position - so you could go for a narrow 442 diamond... but they also have attacking threat outwide… so very difficult to approach the match. I've gone for some strikerless solutions so I can have the dm and ap and width. An alternative is a 4411 with the 2 cms more defensive minded i.e. bbm and cmd or bbm and dlpd … this allows you to hold width and use your AP in space. 

keep giving it a go

 

@afleiding interesting point - I think some of those goals show how capable the team is of countering whilst on a balanced mentality. But for the majority of the rest of the match we are controlling play. I think that would be the main difference... on positive perhaps we would look forward too much and in a lot of my formations i'm bottom heavy so could lead to isolating the attack and losing possession. On cautious it would be too passive and the players may not advance enough when we do have possession. I think balanced mentality is working perfectly for the style of football i'm playing. I would use other mentality to create completely different 'DNA' 

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Patience can be key

Additional challenge or way of thinking when you are in a match.

In my opening gambit I spoke about using balanced mentality to let roles and duty, and in this save - the formation positions, take centre stage (think of it as a key value on a mission statement).

There's many games where I will go in at HT 0-0 dominating possession but with not enough cutting edge. The temptation and a go-to tool is the mentality - to increase to positive or attacking. Having patience in the game plan... and changing a role or duty, or adapting to a positional weakness is paying dividends. 

It would be good to try out in your own saves avoiding a change of mentality during games. If things aren't going to plan think about what you can do with a role change or formation change to turn the tide. 

Here is an example where I got it wrong tactically and just had to observe, tweak and be patient. 

The scout report shows Montpellier playing quite a solid 4123 wide - however, they are doubling up with width using CWB and wingers on both sides. Meaning I  can control the centre of the pitch and allow them to overcommit down the flanks where i'll trust my FB-S to do a job. On their left they have a bwm which I always think is a role that can be gotten at and tempted out of position. 

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I've gone mirror match - 4123 wide, using an IF-A to take advantage of the CWB/BWM combo, thinking that as the bwm can be pulled out of position by my dlp/fb/bbm trio on support...the space will open up on that flank. 

Using a F9 to pull out the centre backs (here is where I have gone wrong.. with no AP to disrupt their DM, my striker is going straight in his pocket)

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HT we are dominating possession and attack - but you can see the shots vs shots on target conversion is poor. this is because the F9 is getting taken out the game so my IF/BBM are shooting from range unsuccessfully. 

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Having already used a sub due to injury however, I didn't rush into changes at HT. 

It was in the 65th minute, following another injury to Pepe that I made the final change. The F9 never got in the game so I've added width with a winger, and changed the F9 to AF … this should give them a bit more push-and-pull 

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Eventually it opened the space for my IF(a) who drove inside and picked out Fekir (Mezalla) who scored the deserved winner. 

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Posted (edited)

@IL Luce @westy8chimp

Thank you for your feedback. What you said totally makes sense and I can't believe I didn't sense that gap I was making and how their IF would exploit that. I guess I was too focused on finding gaps in their formation that I kinda forgot my own. 

But this is food for thoughts which I will bring with me into future game plans.

I'll probably make another post later on when I give it another go.

Edited by Continum

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My 3rd season in La Liga is over and the lucky number 7 will give us EL games next season.

797832972_LaLigaSantander_OverviewStages.thumb.png.46fabfc86f7904ebff3daf2e071c12c7.png

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Real Madrid:

real2.thumb.png.2badab5ee7e04bf3b166173df00ae873.png  real3.thumb.png.e79e8cb16c8a71c9f58d56ce3c20eb33.png

Theirs last game heat map and theirs manager Ancelotti who prefers a 442 approach confused me and I was prepared for a 442. He played the 4231 instead and I immediately changed my tactic at the beginning of the game.

I preferred a 41221 with a DM on defense to stick more close to theirs AMC and I tried to exploit theirs more fragile right flank with a MEZ(s)-IF(a) combo while I was protecting my right flank with a WB(d)-CAR

 

1186111581_RealMadridvCartagena_StatsMatchStats.thumb.png.5e730b05bc6618327211c940d62bf227.png

One shot on target, one goal, one point is enough for me here:lol:. A little bit unlucky though because we couldn't kept our 1-0 advantage.

 

Barcelona:

757457419_barca1.thumb.png.562a52e994cb2832a14953063334be88.png  1791329011_barca2.thumb.png.1c8c98aec7cc18bbd896d3f2cf0a39d3.png

I made a lot of mistakes in this game.

I definitely wanted to exploit theirs flanks and be more aggressive down the flanks but also not to let my middle too exposed.

  • Mistake nr1: I opted for 2 IF while I should have played with wingers. This way I played exactly in theirs congested mid with no roam for my IFs;
  • Mistake nr2: I kept the narrow attacking width while I should have gone for wide;
  • Mistake nr3:  With so much roam on the flanks maybe I should have ticked the “focus play down the right and left” TI.

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More possesion, 2 CCC...not enough.

Lesson learned, but of course I can’t compete with this kind of teams yet, so any draw for me is an amazing result. As a comparison: Barca spent 298M last year (and finished 6 :lol:) while I spent 26.5M and that because I sold players for 21M:lol:.

 

For the next season I want to challenge myself a bit and go with different variation of tactics with 3 at the back. Of course the real challenge will be protecting my flanks. 

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@IL Luce very nice. it's not a cheat code to win every game... a 1-1 with Madrid is a great result. You are correct about the Barca analysis - I would have used at least one winger to drag them out wide - it's all about unsettling their formation meaning you can control the game. Your DLP was up against 2 AMs also... usually bigger teams play a high press so this could have caused you some issue. A wide playmaker on one side and a winger on the other would probably have caused some real problems for Barca. 

I haven't faced enough different formations to make the thread really interesting so examples like this are great. Thank you. 

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Posted (edited)

End of Season - Europa League 

Having knocked out PAOK with ease - we faced RBL. And my first opportunity to come up against a 442

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Was looking forward to this - holes between the lines, and on top they chose a CM pairing that should have been easy to navigate... a raging bull BWM and a more static DLP, a chance to pull them apart and pass around them. 

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Looking now... their left flank would have been quite exposed with an IW and WB - I probably should have played a winger or an attack duty player.. perhaps even Rafael on attack!! 

I opted for double playmaker between the lines - this was overkill and hindered our possession.. along with the bbm in the middle - I questioned this as I made the tactic - 3 in a line.. whilst they do roam around, will not make use of the best natural triangles. I made a real mess of this tactic! Having waited all season to face 442! 

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We had more chances in the first half but we were letting them dictate the game with more possession. The main positive I could see was that both their midfielders were booked and theyd made 17 fouls. This is not sustainable!! So I left things as they were. 

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The inevitable happened, they got a red card - changed to a central formation 432 - so I moved my playmaker out wide and finally exposed their LB with an attacking IF. The WP was successful

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and ended the game with both of their midfielders taking an early bath. This has been a significant theme of the season... playing playmakers in the hole definitely drags the opponent out of shape - and in many cases leads to them committing fouls as they chase the ball. 

Second leg I went with a more solid formation to see the tie out - and I did use Rafael in a more attacking duty - he was motm. 

 

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Next up Chelsea

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No AMC but an otherwise compact formation. Doubled up width but also a sound central trio. No glaring weakness - so I put defence first... kill the Hazard threat

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Anchor man FBs and IW s to try and tighten my right side vs Hazard. Regista to add some vertical movement and link with the attack. This was definitely a defence first formation. 

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We controlled the ball, stopped their attack and got our important goal. 

They went on to get a red card but despite changing tactic I couldn't kill the tie off 

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Second leg was going to plan but this time it was us who got a red card - CF making tackles in his own half never a good idea! 

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I changed to a back 6 but left a front three to try and either make them leave players back, or catch them on counter if they did overcommit. We faced an onslaught and came away with a lucky win on away goals

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Schalke in the semis 

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The formation I found most difficult to play against all season - they have no DM so my playmaker went in AMC slot, which is a lot harder to play to and keep the space than playing out from the back through a playmaker vs a team with no AMC. Theres no real weakness.. as i'd said in other matchups the only weakness really is a BWM who can either break up your attack on a good day, or be exposed on a bad day

They had a very central attacking thread with AM and 2 IF. 

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Their central threat allowed me to use more expansive FB roles, whilst sticking an Anchorman infront to protect the middle. Also SV - will act as DM when they attack, so further protection in the middle, but will get forward like a BBM when we attack (especially as we build up slow and short, plenty of time to get up wth the AP)

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It was a common sight at HT … nullifying their attack and dominating possession. Our SV with the goal. 

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No dramatics, they never got in the game and we didn't need to push things. 

Always a little disappointing that the AI don't try to adapt.. in all double legs the opponent played the same way. 

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So the same thing happened, except we couldn't score. I think that was the HT stats, FT was 0-0 with much the same story. 

The final vs Frankfurt

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Nice balanced 4123 to come up against, if theyd maybe used BBM instead of BWM or the AP... and a winger … could have been a winner. 

765682427_frankfurtmytac.thumb.PNG.191b5ec1fe6e810997af625cbb3a5ae6.PNG

Rafael was injured and Dubois doesn't have the same skillset, otherwise id have probably used a more attacking role but it meant I could allow Pepe to attack. Mendy on the other side had power to get forward (I should have put my AN on that side) 

860047401_frankfurtht.thumb.PNG.befa530b1dff764bb816ef38ebac3ad6.PNG

HT things were not going well - poor shot conversion and possession very even. 

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So I changed my 2 attack duty to support to start controlling the ball more, changed REG to RPM as I think RPM slightly better at following the ball to all areas as a passing option. Also changed my AN(D) to DM(s) - to encourage a closer unit with my attack (see the team fluidity now very fluid) 

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It seemed to work with a quick goal in second half.. we then had many more attacks and slightly more possession.. but still poor shot conversion and that turncoat Cornet took advantage of our less tight defence. 

I didn't change things tho as we did have more of the ball and more shots. 

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eventually they crumbled - individual brilliance for the game winning goal! And another case of balanced mentality working just fine for counter attacking football. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by westy8chimp

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End of Season - Cup Final

Marseille are Lyons second biggest rival (after St Etienne) so facing them in a cup final was always going to be a big game. To make it bigger - theyd handed me my only league defeat of the season just a few matches prior. That meant they were already ahead in the mental warfare. 

the league game

Yet another solid 4231 attacking both centrally and out wide. I used a 42(dm)31 that had served me well on a number of occasions. 

We dominated the ball but were toothless in attack and eventually paid the price. Wretched to lose our unbeaten streak to our rivals with just 3 games remaining

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The Cup game

So going into the cup final I made a tactical change and lined up strikerless - using a TQ as my playmaker to try and be a bit more creative in attack, but remain solid at the back. Using AN(d) to keep Payet quiet 

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But this just created a mess of a match - bookings a plenty but no attacks or spells of possession. 

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I went back to AP - and changed to a MEZ in CM to open up yet another channel of attack. To allow for the gap left behind by the MEZ I changed my anchor to DM on support (try and keep less of a gap between attack and defence). I lowered the mentality of my FB to sure up the defence who now had less protection. 

We started to get more of the ball but still couldn't penetrate.. so I made one last drastic change of plan... swapped to a 4411 and bought on a CF 

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Having made the change in the 83rd minute... Terrier produced a game winning goal a couple of minutes after coming on. Happy days

321285952_marseilleft.thumb.PNG.dfe211a6e131c5fad60d6048ea456d02.PNG

 

 

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55 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

 

1933500302_schalkeleg1scoutreport.thumb.PNG.3b600a325a2182bae3053d17426b8d49.PNG

The formation I found most difficult to play against all season

I play in Serie A and everybody play 4-2-3-1 against me.  :) In like 80% of the time with occasional 5-2-1-2.

I never try to adopt my tactics to opponent, but this was very intresting thread that I actually read from start to finish. I will probably never play a game like this, but as you said, it could be useful in some games. Maybe in future, I'll try to find a hole for my creative player in a game he struggles. I do notice sometimes he doesn't have space but i never try to move him, I just gave him PI to roam from position and hope that he will find it himself. I did try in one match to move him from AMC to MC inspired by this thread and liked what I saw. I didn't pay attention to formation I was facing, just that he didn't have space and after I moved him to MC he had space in front of him to run to and played direct balls to my IF and W. So that's another tool in toolbox for me. 

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Always enjoy reading your threads and this is another solid thread. :thup:

I always tend to jump to positive mentality when building a tactic, or in previous versions, control. Might try playing my current tactic on balanced for a few games and see what happens. Interesting that you don't use many TIs either, as well as seeing the thread that @herne79 put up yesterday, it's definitely food for thought. You see a lot of users lump on 10 different TIs and then wonder why things aren't working and whilst I don't use that many, typically no more than 7, perhaps less is more as the saying goes? 

Anyway, good stuff once again @westy8chimp

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31 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

You see a lot of users lump on 10 different TIs and then wonder why things aren't working and whilst I don't use that many, typically no more than 7, perhaps less is more as the saying goes? 

As @HUNT3R said in my thread, start with nothing and build from there.  That way you have more chance of seeing what each thing does, whereas chucking a dozen TIs up front tends to lead to a lot of help requests.

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Posted (edited)

Great thread westy! This might even change how I play FM from now on, so thank you!

 

I decided to accept this "challenge" and try it out in the swedish premier division. This is perhaps not ideal, although my oppositions will be weaker (and therefore easier to face) - my own players will be weaker, less capable of handling different roles and the squads wont perhaps have the depth needed and with swedish clubs generally on a tight budget and low reputations - expanding squads is a bit more difficult.

Another obstacle I faced immediatley was the lack of scouts in the swedish clubs. The scouts are quite poor, and not all clubs have scouts. This limited my options severly since I bascially was only left with choosing IFK Göteborg, a mid table/lower half team with a very thin squad.

I started of in the preseason, and was thrown in straight away into a competitive game (swedish cup) despite my squad still not fully match fit.

 

First game

First game was against Värnamo in the swedish cup, a mid table team in the league below us. So as we can see below, theres space right in the centre of the pitch for my playmaker. So i opted for a playmaker in the cm strata. I also wanted to nullify their AMC by using a DM. Using a CM Attack, IW and F9 for penetrating their DM-block

ikfvarnamo2.thumb.jpg.c2b6d39ed5540bb69aef942d46c7c3e0.jpg

ifkvarnamo.thumb.jpg.44d3aedbfd73587740fb4da3791eb547.jpg

Decent result, dont know why the game had three red cards tho.

 

 

Second game

Another cup game - this time against a top team in the premier division: IFK Norrköping. As a matter of fact, one of the teams I first wanted to try this challenge with due to their squad depth and gifted players. Dont think any of my players would get into their starting XI. 

Their formation also proved a real challenge. Obviously theres space both in the AMC and DMC strata but with two IFs, which basically turned their tactic into a 343, I didnt know how to approach this as they had three man in defence and up front. I decided to offer some cover for my CBs by using an anchor and neext to him a RPM, so they could face the threat from wide and from the cm.

ifkpeking.thumb.jpg.ff2f7a54821f36b3e7b8d47b18a4dfce.jpg

ifkpeking2.thumb.jpg.e3e706aefab3d872374c726c046c99d1.jpg

Im quite pleased. They did get perhaps too many shots on goal, and my keeper kept us in the game, but they only scored on a penalty and we generated shos and chances. 

 

 

Third game

Last game in the group stages against a mid table rivaly in the league. I decided to nullify their excellent CM playmaker Rasmus Elm by using players in the CM strata and my playmaker as a DLP s. In retrospect, I could probably have used a DM playmaker.

An AMC,with PI run wide w ball, to find space between the blocks and place him to the left as their RB was more attacking, thus overloading. I also decided to go with a W attack to really put their RB under pressure.'

 

ifkkalmar2.thumb.jpg.a8d5fb7ddd09cb8294ddf37262b5bf7b.jpg

 

ifkkalmar.thumb.jpg.126c91bfac7742ed5dbe1cbb10081d2b.jpg

Really good result, my playmaker got the MOM and my AMC also did some good bits. 

 

 

Question: 

How much attention should we tend to the oppositions mentality? Could you give us some pointers, Westy? Postive and above = consider using a DM/Anchor?

 

 

Quarter final

So im through to the quarter final against Falkenberg, a team in the league below. They actually set up a 442 just like Kalmar but insetad their LB is more attacking. So I decided to just mirror my tactic from my last game, moving my AMC to the right instead. I didnt really work...

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Down to 2-0 I change my tactic. Going for a 442 narrow diamond but it only cost me another goal. Poor game, but the goals did come from a couple of individual misstakes. The first one was a failure from my DLP s to win a tackle, leaving their striker with a good opportunity. Second goal is their striker picking up a lose ball after one of my midfielders tried to head the ball back to the back line. And third was a header from a cross

fffifk2.thumb.jpg.678cf12ead054c4794afde18c7a190a7.jpg

Edited by Mutumba

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1 hour ago, Mutumba said:

 

How much attention should we tend to the oppositions mentality? Could you give us some pointers, Westy? Postive and above = consider using a DM/Anchor?

Thanks for getting involved - I like your approach. The 1-0 defeat was only a defeat in scoreline.. you had more attacks and more possession so shows perhaps an unlucky defeat. 

RE opposition mentality - I cant say there is a black and white answer. First and foremost I was matching player positions vs player positions... but you can perhaps get a better idea of their threats and weaknesses based on mentality … for instance a team on positive or higher and using riskier roles like WB instead of FB, BWM instead of BBM/CM, this would be areas I look to attack. 

A more defensive mentality and I will assume they are happy to drop off - so I might use a winger on support to cross from deeper before being engaged or pick my runners to come from midfield and use a striker that will come deep for the ball to evade the deep backline. 

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23 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

Best thread ever as far as im concerned.

seconded. this is how i've always wished to play FM 

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