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edien1993

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD GIVE ME A LOGICAL ANWSER

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Ever since the fm 17 this game is dead to me and all because of one simple mechanic in the game that should be thrown out ... none of my mates that play fm like it and i have no clue why it should be in fm and now i want a good anwser ... 

the mechanic is the team personality(or the team leaders personality) effecting the youth players and players under a certain age ... this mechanic literally destroys the option of making your own choices in the game ... let me explain ... ronaldo is a perfecionist with 20 in all the important personality stats like determination ambition and professionalism ... if you dont buy him to your club a player like that cannot exist anymore cause even if you find a youth player with those kind of personality stats he will get downgraded with time cause of the overall team personality(or team leader personality) ... and that feels at least to me as totally restricting ... this mechanic makes no sense ... for instance one of my team leaders is hazard i love hazard but if i want my wonderkids personality stats to improve in need to sell hazard and get a player like ronaldo or phil jones(who the hell wants phil jones in his or her team) ... conclusion: if you want a good personality team in the future(keep in mind i only do long term saves) you need to sell everybody you like and get in the same boring players every year which means i have no choices to make cause of course in a long term save i need to do whats best for the future ... 

so my questions are ... 

whats the point of this mechanic ? if its for realism? cause that definetly is not the case cause with this mechanic if ronaldo was 18 instead of 34 in fm 19 he would lose the personality traits that make him the world beater that he is today(in real life and in the game)  ... so this isn't fun or realistic its just tedious and unimaginitive 

will this mechanic be in fm 20? 

this is a dead end mechanic that from my point of view should be taken out immidietly no questions asked! Now i want a good counter argument to prove me wrong cause i play this game for the fantasy of it and you destroy any chance i have of building a squad im dreaming of when i play this game ... 

SOLUTION: this mechanic should have an on/off button before you start the game like attribute masking so everyone can be happy to do what he or she wants ... (wonder if anyone would leave this on to be honest) 

 

 

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ok you are anwsering my question what happens ... but you are not anwsering how that is realistic ... ? as i pointed out if ronaldo with the same personality and potential ability was 16 year old in fm he would never be able to keep his personality in fm ... yet in real life he did ... why because he had the kind of personality from a young age and nobody could change that ... i ask myself how many of you that are anwsering my questions know anything about psychology ? ... like seriously ... has seb wassell or you hunter simulated the game 100 years in advance ? ... i did ... nobody when checked every 10 years had half the personality that ronaldo has on the game ... if having a team of all 20 in personality(important ones) traits is unrealistic not having any is aswell therefore the game with this mechanic is flawed ... simple as that this isn't spaming but i just want my questions and solution seen and i what my questions anwsered directly no sidelining ... last time i gave him all the pictures that he needed and he wanted a save so i sent a save to fm support and what happened ? nothing ?!!!! ....this mechanic is flawed ... as i explained with the ronaldo example and the 100 year test ... you get perfectionists sometimes but unless you buy ronaldo  himself you will never get a 20 in all stats and i mean never ... not one in 1000 years of fm19 ... how is that realistic ? ... i understand that you made the tutoring worse fine by me ... but this mechanic is destroying every godlike personality wonderkid(even if hes born 20 in all personality stats he will not be able to keep them no matter what ... so no good tutour will be born for the future only average ones that arent even on the level of phil jones professional 18 in all important stats personality let alone ronaldo)  ...  NOW I WANT YOU TO ANWSER THIS QUESTION ... how can i get good tutors on the level of phil jones(not ronaldo) in the future(lets say if i started a save 100 years in the future) if every teams personality will destory every single potential tutor that will be born... please anwser only this last question ... you dont need any saves or anything for this to be anwsered prove me wrong please???? ... 

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You probably will dislike this answer, but the fault is on your poor team building. If you have a squad full of players who are not going to have a positive impact on young players, then you are not going to see these players improving. The choice of players you sign is entirely down to you. You are clearly aware of the mechanic, so you know how to avoid it.

I generally get very positive responses from my young players, usually seeing their determination increase. Why? I have a squad full of players who will have a positive impact on the squad. I do not even consider signing players who have less than 13 for determination. I aim for positive personalities. Professional, drive, model citizen etc. These are the guys who will have a positive impact on my squad. I do not follow this religiously, because some players are too good to turn down even if they have an undesirable personality and/or lower than preferred determination. So I do sometimes see sharp drops in determination for young players due to this. However, since I have a generally positive squad personality, I generally see positive effects on my younger players. And I will note that  I have never signed Ronaldo, or any other very high CA player.

So if you want to avoid the things you describe, build your squad better. Or live with the consequences.

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2 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

You probably will dislike this answer, but the fault is on your poor team building. If you have a squad full of players who are not going to have a positive impact on young players, then you are not going to see these players improving. The choice of players you sign is entirely down to you. You are clearly aware of the mechanic, so you know how to avoid it.

I generally get very positive responses from my young players, usually seeing their determination increase. Why? I have a squad full of players who will have a positive impact on the squad. I do not even consider signing players who have less than 13 for determination. I aim for positive personalities. Professional, drive, model citizen etc. These are the guys who will have a positive impact on my squad. I do not follow this religiously, because some players are too good to turn down even if they have an undesirable personality and/or lower than preferred determination. So I do sometimes see sharp drops in determination for young players due to this. However, since I have a generally positive squad personality, I generally see positive effects on my younger players. And I will note that  I have never signed Ronaldo, or any other very high CA player.

So if you want to avoid the things you describe, build your squad better. Or live with the consequences.

seems that you don't get my point or you never checked your saves with fm genie scout ... go check your youth players and first team players with genie scouts and tell me how many out of them have 18 in all det amb and prof ... i would say not many ... i can get my personalities to a good level with no real problem but thats not my problem with the game and if you paid any attention to what i was writing about you would understand that thats not my problem with the game ... look this mechanic is terrible due to the fact that if you fast forward a save for lets say 30 50 years there will be no great tutors ... not even on phil joneses level let alone ronaldos ... it has nothing to do with bad team management ... im saying that even if you get super lucky and get a godlike 199 pa player with proff amb and det at 20 in a long term save you will have no chance in hell of keeping it that way cause no tutor will exist to help him keep his personality stats ... cause if you dont pass on the god personality of ronaldo to another player and then another theres no chance of a player of the same personality to ever exist which in term effectivly limits the potential of the game itself  ... if you for instance put tutoring out of the game and put out this mechanic aswell i would have no problem with it cause then theres at least a chance of getting a player similar to ronaldo in personality and potencial ability but with this mechanic there is none ... cause your youth players will if ofcourse spawned with an extreme personality lose their personality cause there will be noone on their level(in terms of personality) ..................................................... you get my point now ? ... 

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How many youth players with exceptional talent and promise stay at a club where their potential far exceeds that of their fellow youth and senior players?

They move to a better club with better players with better skills and with better attitudes better training facilities and better mentoring so they have a better chance of improving and fulfilling their potential

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1 hour ago, MrPompey said:

How many youth players with exceptional talent and promise stay at a club where their potential far exceeds that of their fellow youth and senior players?

They move to a better club with better players with better skills and with better attitudes better training facilities and better mentoring so they have a better chance of improving and fulfilling their potential

guess you like to go off topic mate ... look my post is about the simple fact that this squad dynamics personality mechanic is flawed by default ... lets say you simulate the game 30 years in advance and you take over whichever club you want and that same year 3 20 in all prof ambition and determination players spawn ... tell me how you as you seem to have a lot of posts(most likely not helpful ones) would make at least one of these players keep these personality stats ... let me enlighten you ... you cant ... cause the game completely destroys the chance of a godlike personality player existing even a great one for that matter ... therefore a player personality wise like phil jones cannot exist let alone messi and ronaldo ... how is that acceptable to you or anyone for that matter is beyond me ... look i dont need my team to be all 20 in every personality attribute ... but if i ever find that 199 pa player with ronaldos 20 in det prof and amb i damn sure want to keep it that way ... of course you will probably always have perfectionists in the game but never to a level close to ronaldos level ... and that to me is unacceptable cause i want to at least have a chance of finding one player like that without him losing any of his stats because of this broken mechanic ... 

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3 ore fa, MrPompey ha scritto:

How many youth players with exceptional talent and promise stay at a club where their potential far exceeds that of their fellow youth and senior players?

They move to a better club with better players with better skills and with better attitudes better training facilities and better mentoring so they have a better chance of improving and fulfilling their potential

But this is not about talent!

I can have an average League Two player with decent mentality who'll get "ruined" by the "let's get drunk at the local pub after every training session" gang led by locker-room "leaders"!

Heck, the lower you go down the pyramid, the more important a couple of extra points in Determination, Ambition and Professionalism are! And if you can't really move a lot of players around on the transfer market, you MUST rely on youth intakes, free transfer etc, meaning even a single point in those key mental aspects can go a long way and win (or lose) you many games.

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OP is on point but still if we have tutoring you could create team full of ronaldo's which isnt real too.

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16 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

But this is not about talent!

I can have an average League Two player with decent mentality who'll get "ruined" by the "let's get drunk at the local pub after every training session" gang led by locker-room "leaders"!

Heck, the lower you go down the pyramid, the more important a couple of extra points in Determination, Ambition and Professionalism are! And if you can't really move a lot of players around on the transfer market, you MUST rely on youth intakes, free transfer etc, meaning even a single point in those key mental aspects can go a long way and win (or lose) you many games.

Do you not think there is any correlation between mental attributes and player attribute improvement?

Do you not think think being at a more successful club and learning with, learning from, being mentored by, being coached by people with higher mental attributes would have a more positive effort on mental attributes and playing attributes?

I'd say at the lower leagues you have a greater chance of moving players around as they are on shorter contracts of lower wages and more senior players will get released. Additionally I think you under estimate the professionalism of league 2 clubs assuming you mean EFL

The problem with the OP is that he is unwilling to have a debate or to look for any alternative reasons or explanations. Instead follows the I am right so everyone else is wrong approach. It appears he is asking the same questions again that SI themselves have directly answered for him. If he isn't prepared to help himself by uploading saves to prove his point then there will be no surprise that no one will be interested in trying to help.

Indeed insulting those that try will only result in one outcome even if there may be a discussion worth having here ;) 

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8 minutes ago, MrPompey said:

The problem with the OP is that he is unwilling to have a debate or to look for any alternative reasons or explanations. Instead follows the I am right so everyone else is wrong approach. It appears he is asking the same questions again that SI themselves have directly answered for him. If he isn't prepared to help himself by uploading saves to prove his point then there will be no surprise that no one will be interested in trying to help.

Missing the point there

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3 minutes ago, autohoratio said:

Missing the point there

If  you have a look at the 2nd post in this thread..........

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16 minutes ago, MrPompey said:

If  you have a look at the 2nd post in this thread..........

second post is that i have been anwsered by SI which told me to move the conversation to bugs i did didnt get any reply or any true anwser ... so whats your point exactly ? ... 

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There is no snark from my side as you well know so please dont try to incite a situation when you know there isn't one there.

The reference to post 2 was because it contains valuable information and request that the OP chooses to ignore. Asking the same question multiple times is unlikely to be the way to go In my opinion

 

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46 minutes ago, Snorks said:

But...there is only one player like that in real life isn't there? Love him or hate him, of all the professional players in the world today, from 16yrs old to 40, there are none with the personality/ability of CR7? How unrealistic is it to have a similar situation in the game? The chances of you being able to load all playable leagues and players and run the biggest possible database AND find that one player are pretty slim at best.

Even simming for the next 30 years, if you are LUCKY there would only be one or two generated into the database.

I would argue that it is more realistic to have a young, ambitious 16 year old determined to make the first team and international success  lose an edge after a couple of years. Many real life examples of top potential going off the rails and not achieving what people thought they might. Neymar was once a hungry and ambitious 16 yr old, Balotelli etc etc.

I don't disagree that the Dynamics thing could be improved, but try and see it with some perspective rather than GenieScout.

had to create a second acc due to the post limit ... edien1993 here ... look i agree its unrealistic but even more so that you can sim a million years into the future and noone will ever reach the age of 24 with a personality like ronaldo simply cause of this squad dynamic personality change mechanic ... i just want to have a chance no matter how slim to find a player like that but due to this mechanic its simply impossible ... and if you are a fan of football at all you know that that is unacceptable ... on the second part of the post i agree completely but this is a game man and psychology is a 70% accurate science at best so i can understand that its hard to create a accurate representation of real life ... but i still think that this mechanic is too limiting first of all you need to build a good personality team to make good personality wonderkids which is tedious and unoriginal when it comes to your choices on who to buy(also means that you need to most likely sell your favorite players unless you like players like phil jones that much heh) ... its makes the game work instead of fun to be honest and that's why i want this mechanic to simply be an option that you can turn on or off at the start or the save and i think this is the solution that will suit everyone :) in this case i would be happy and people that like this kind of game would be aswell ... 

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1 hour ago, MrPompey said:

Do you not think there is any correlation between mental attributes and player attribute improvement?

Do you not think think being at a more successful club and learning with, learning from, being mentored by, being coached by people with higher mental attributes would have a more positive effort on mental attributes and playing attributes?

I'd say at the lower leagues you have a greater chance of moving players around as they are on shorter contracts of lower wages and more senior players will get released. Additionally I think you under estimate the professionalism of league 2 clubs assuming you mean EFL

The problem with the OP is that he is unwilling to have a debate or to look for any alternative reasons or explanations. Instead follows the I am right so everyone else is wrong approach. It appears he is asking the same questions again that SI themselves have directly answered for him. If he isn't prepared to help himself by uploading saves to prove his point then there will be no surprise that no one will be interested in trying to help.

Indeed insulting those that try will only result in one outcome even if there may be a discussion worth having here ;) 

ok im just gonna paste this to you and you can check my solution and tell me if its okey with you its a simple solution to a problem the annoys me and makes you happy for some reason ... i respect everyones opinion and agree with some of your points but this mechanic simply restricts the game tooo much ... everything explanied in the lower text ... anwser on that if you will please espacially the part where a player like ronaldo cant exist with this mechanic in play ... nomatter is 30 years in the future or a billion ...

had to create a second acc due to the post limit ... edien1993 here ... look i agree its unrealistic but even more so that you can sim a million years into the future and noone will ever reach the age of 24 with a personality like ronaldo simply cause of this squad dynamic personality change mechanic ... i just want to have a chance no matter how slim to find a player like that but due to this mechanic its simply impossible ... and if you are a fan of football at all you know that that is unacceptable ... on the second part of the post i agree completely but this is a game man and psychology is a 70% accurate science at best so i can understand that its hard to create a accurate representation of real life ... but i still think that this mechanic is too limiting first of all you need to build a good personality team to make good personality wonderkids which is tedious and unoriginal when it comes to your choices on who to buy(also means that you need to most likely sell your favorite players unless you like players like phil jones that much heh) ... its makes the game work instead of fun to be honest and that's why i want this mechanic to simply be an option that you can turn on or off at the start or the save and i think this is the solution that will suit everyone :) in this case i would be happy and people that like this kind of game would be aswell ... 

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1 ora fa, MrPompey ha scritto:

Do you not think there is any correlation between mental attributes and player attribute improvement?

Of course there is!

And it's exactly why I think this current "osmosis" thing is dangerous at both ends of the spectrum. Only we're now getting more of the bad influence compared to the "mentoring = success" from older editions.

1 ora fa, MrPompey ha scritto:

Do you not think think being at a more successful club and learning with, learning from, being mentored by, being coached by people with higher mental attributes would have a more positive effort on mental attributes and playing attributes?

Yes, but again, if you're a level-headed semi-pro player with no ability to take a step further, why should your career be doomed if you end up at the "wrong" club, ie one with a couple of influential slackers or unprofessional morons?

 

1 ora fa, MrPompey ha scritto:

I'd say at the lower leagues you have a greater chance of moving players around as they are on shorter contracts of lower wages and more senior players will get released. Additionally I think you under estimate the professionalism of league 2 clubs assuming you mean EFL

A lot of turnover, maybe, but how much quality is there in that?

Semi-pro and amateur clubs are affected a lot by the "X has been affected by the squad's less desirable traits" dynamics. Much more than a Top-flight club where everyone is likely at least Fairly Professional.

E.g. I'm currently managing in North Korea, semi-pro club, and I have THREE players with Det >10, which means every new Determinated player I'll bring in will inevitably suffer unless he's really really strong mentally. Which isn't easy, considering the average quality of the players.
So I'm now stuck in a loop with players not progressing enough or even declining mentally because the squad just can't be improved in that aspect.

1 ora fa, MrPompey ha scritto:

The problem with the OP is that he is unwilling to have a debate or to look for any alternative reasons or explanations.

Indeed insulting those that try will only result in one outcome even if there may be a discussion worth having here ;) 

Can't we move on from the OP's rant and just focus on WHAT he brought up instead of HOW he did it?

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36 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

Yes, but again, if you're a level-headed semi-pro player with no ability to take a step further, why should your career be doomed if you end up at the "wrong" club, ie one with a couple of influential slackers or unprofessional morons?

This just gave me an idea for a feature request - if a player has very high determination or teamwork, but the rest of the squad have very low determination or teamwork, perhaps the player could ask the manager to leave the club due to getting frustrated with their teammates lack of effort/laziness

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5 hours ago, edien93 said:

had to create a second acc due to the post limit ... edien1993 here ...

Alias accounts aren't allowed, so I will need to ban the 2nd account.

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6 hours ago, RBKalle said:

So I'm now stuck in a loop with players not progressing enough or even declining mentally because the squad just can't be improved in that aspect.

 

6 hours ago, edien93 said:

but i still think that this mechanic is too limiting first of all you need to build a good personality team to make good personality wonderkids

Did either of you try Mentoring the affected youngsters? How did that turn out, because although they're affected by either the squad or influential players, you can try and at least counter it by getting them Mentored?

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12 hours ago, edien1993 said:

look this mechanic is terrible due to the fact that if you fast forward a save for lets say 30 50 years there will be no great tutors ... not even on phil joneses level let alone ronaldos

Have you done a simulation like this? What did you find? If you are finding issues and you have a save - that's exactly what SI need to investigate a potential issue. :thup:

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8 hours ago, autohoratio said:

This just gave me an idea for a feature request - if a player has very high determination or teamwork, but the rest of the squad have very low determination or teamwork, perhaps the player could ask the manager to leave the club due to getting frustrated with their teammates lack of effort/laziness

Lack of teamwork does not necessarily mean lack of effort or laziness, it means he is likely more selfish. This could be a valuable trait in a striker. A player with a high work rate can still be effective even with a low team work attribute

I would personally recommend that you read up on the player attributes to help you understand these better, try this:

https://www.guidetofm.com/players/attributes

Also please understand that a rating of 10 is not bad, its actually average

Hunter makes a valuable point. Why not take a save and then experiment with players being mentored by different players with different attributes then save each and examine the results. This is the feedback that will strengthen your point with evidence that SI will also have to investigate. The foundation to any any argument, proving of a point, identification of an issue  etc requires tangible evidence to support it.

People will then listen if the point is well made and exampled

In terms of your feature request  players can already ask to leave a club if they dont get on with a player, manager etc. They may refuse to be mentored by a specific senior player. Players with high ambition may also choose to move on. I think there are many factors which can influence players decisions, attribute growth etc

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I didn't even know Determination will decrease. I thought that's one of the attribute that doesn't shift (upward or downward) once it's set to a player.

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Personally, I think this is probably correct behaviour. How many players IRL have ever had the drive, determination and professionalism of Ronaldo? The guy is a machine and no one has ever matched that sort of intensity and focus in a match and I don't think anyone will. 20 in all three atts is unique to him and probably him alone.

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I agree. In this very rare instances it would be an exceedingly high expectation for FM to be able to replicate this in a likewise one in a million (?) chance

This is why the FM researchers have the opportunity to amend data to reflect real life. I

In this instance as I mentioned I personally think we need exampled facts to demonstrate the issue to gain clarity

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5 hours ago, MrPompey said:

Lack of teamwork does not necessarily mean lack of effort or laziness, it means he is likely more selfish. This could be a valuable trait in a striker. A player with a high work rate can still be effective even with a low team work attribute

Indeed, I meant workrate rather than teamwork (I get them mixed up sometimes). If what I have suggested is already in the game, then I must be lucky enough not to have experienced it.

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8 minutes ago, autohoratio said:

Indeed, I meant workrate rather than teamwork (I get them mixed up sometimes). If what I have suggested is already in the game, then I must be lucky enough not to have experienced it.

Work rate - This could be your flair player who could have a low workrate but comes alive a few times during the game to create the defence splitting passes or some magic where he dribbles past 5 players and scores a screamer then goes back to sleep. Or a player given freedom of the pitch to make things happen who never tracks back to defend...the team could carry a player like this

Players reactions, in particular like the one you mention, will be subject to FM AI. I've been playing FM since the start as CM and to be honest I've not seen this particular reason. Additionally in real life I have never heard of player openly saying he is fed up with lazy teammates and becoming unhappy.. He would become very unpopular with players, managers, fans etc if he expressed this in the real world!

I have heard of players wanting to leave as their ambition exceeds that of the team or the teams ability e.g. players wanting to join a more successful club or a club with better prospects or a club in a higher league etc. THIS IS included in the game. A managers promise may be to sell him at the end of the season or promise to buy better players etc

You can raise your issue as a feature enhancement but have a think if its already covered in what i detail above?

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I've noticed this too and find it frustrating. I've spent 10 seasons building a professional squad all with at least 14 determination. It hasn't prevented every youth player with very high DET from dropping down to around 14-15. To me it's ridiculous. Of course people rub off on one another, but to the extent that they're altering their fundamental characteristics? I don't believe it. At a younger age sure, but not at 18-22. 

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5 hours ago, puffascruffowitz said:

I've noticed this too and find it frustrating. I've spent 10 seasons building a professional squad all with at least 14 determination. It hasn't prevented every youth player with very high DET from dropping down to around 14-15. To me it's ridiculous. Of course people rub off on one another, but to the extent that they're altering their fundamental characteristics? I don't believe it. At a younger age sure, but not at 18-22. 

You mention one Attribute though. If your squad is Professional, it should also increase the youth players' Professionalism. The effects of this wouldn't be just negative.

And as asked earlier, have you tried Mentoring to keep some of the best Personalities as they are?

 

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It happened to me that I bought model citizen regen at age of 22 and my team didnt affect him a bit. He stayed that way and became leader of my team. It was in Milan save btw.

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1 hour ago, Andrew James said:

If Ronaldo's career path was remodelled in FM it would be possible for him to reach 20/20/20, yes. This would also be dependent upon his CA developing quickly enough for him to become a team leader himself, as it did in real life. Essentially, to recreate a "new Ronaldo" in FM, you would need a *perfect* series of events relating to, player potential, player mentality, squad mentality and of course, luck. 

Thanks Andrew.

So to clarify, you're saying it is currently possible for players to develop Det/Amb/Pro beyond the maximum levels of their teammates?

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44 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

Hi guys, and thanks @herne79 for the @

There have definitely been some good points raised in this thread, so I'll try and clear a few things up and explain why things work as they do.

Yes - we do regular soak checks and are able to analyse all the data for average attribute ratings throughout the database and how they increase or decrease as the game progresses. These tests display and acceptably constant average for Det/Pro/Amb attributes.

At this point it is worth mentioning that this thread is very focused on the absolute extreme end of the scale of a system designed to maintain realism across the board. As has been mentioned a few times above, players like Ronaldo are very much the exception in real life, as they should be in game.

I think it's very presumptive to say "nobody could change that", just because nobody did. Ronaldo joined a Man Utd squad in 2003 that contained Gary Neville, Phil Neville, Nicky Butt, Rio Ferdinand, Ryan Giggs, Roy Keane and Paul Scholes, as well as being managed by one of the most successful (and Determined) managers of all time in Sir Alex Ferguson. I don't think it's a massive stretch to say that joining such a professional squad in his formative years played a massive role in him becoming the player he is today. 

If Ronaldo's career path was remodelled in FM it would be possible for him to reach 20/20/20, yes. This would also be dependent upon his CA developing quickly enough for him to become a team leader himself, as it did in real life. Essentially, to recreate a "new Ronaldo" in FM, you would need a *perfect* series of events relating to, player potential, player mentality, squad mentality and of course, luck. 

It is my opinion that the way this is modelled in game is realistic - but that doesn't mean it is completely bug-free. So if you do have specific examples of player's mental stats decreasing (or increasing) in an unrealistic manner, please upload a save from just before the change takes place, and we'll investigate. Instructions on how to upload saves can be found via the link below.

Cheers,

Andrew

I must say i agree with your statements if only to some extent ... look first of all let me adress the main problem you have with what i wrote which will in turn make my arguement even stronger ... ronaldo is an extreme as you said and i agree completely and i don't want there to be a 1000 people like him running around the game personality wise that's not the point that im trying to make ... but ronaldo is an extreme even compared to the people you've mentioned and in a documentary when some of those players talked about him they also say they have never seen professionalism and workrate as high as his in their life ... so it would be safe to assume that ronaldo when he came to the club was already a higher player then most of these people in terms of his personality attributes(ambition determination and professionalism) and he definetly wasn't a team leader in his early years at the club as most do say he was considered a show pony of the primier league in his early years ... therefore if we translate this situation into football manager with this certrain squad dynamics personality change mechanic in place he would join the club at 18 years of age where he would would be influenced by the 3 top dogs at the club which were(i dont really know who were the top 3 so you can choose the names giggs,neville whoever) and lets say these guys are at best in the 18s maybe some 19s when it comes to their personality stats(amb det prof) ... in this case in the corse of 2 years he would with your mechanic keep in mind never be able to keep his stats ... and yes he would not lose his perfectionist perosnality as a result but he would lose the personality stats that make him who he is ... instead of 60 in all stats he would have 58 ... therefore this mechanic simply does not work well on the high end of the personality ladder but simply aims to keep things at a constistent statistical average level ... 

and i competely agree that this is an extreme as everybody is well aware but lets take this back a notch and talk about how this mechanic afects or rather influeces that youth players in a normal team ... my team is chelsea my leaders are hazard kovacic and kepa arrizabaga ... which dont have bad personality stats but dont have great ones ... which in turn forces me to sell them in order to give my wonderkids the best personality possible for them and the next generation that they will mentor ... so this is the big problem for me if i want to make my club into a high level personality one i need to sell the players i like the most simply because the squad personality change mechanic doesn't give me much choice which to me feels booring and gives no room for imagination and creativity of squad building ... i simply need to buy the same tutor all the time like phil jones and ronaldo ... this is my whole point ... and for this i dont really need to send any saves even doe i can cause you already mentioned how this mechanic works ... the main fact of the matter is that with this mechanic in place the game has a tedious feel to it always having to upkeep the main team leaders personality to the highest in order to give your wonderkid the best chance of prosphering ... its just not fun no matter how realistic or unrealistic it is ... 

take fm 2016 as an example when this mechanic was not yet in place ... you didn't need to watch who you buy all the time you could just buy whoever you want and it didnt really afect anybody else so my team was full of varied personality types which feels natural to me and i could just have fun with the game instead of always watching in fear which of my youth prospects are gonna get killed by this mechanic ... 

the most natural solution to this would be to simply put this mechanic out of the game and maybe even taking the mentoring aspect out it aswell and letting the gods of fm decide what kind of high potencial players will inhabit the great virtual pitch with you being the person to decide if its worth it to give lower personality players the game time that they need to reach their potencial(this way a ronaldo could spawn naturaly but would be a rare thing to behold yet there will at least be a chance of it happening where in this current state i don't belive it can) 

i am also willing to send any and all saves that i have to you without any problems if you really want them even doe i doubt it will really fix the issue that i have with the game cause i feel that you are well aware of how the game mechanics work ... this is not a bug simply a limitation of the game experience ... 

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1 hour ago, herne79 said:

So to clarify, you're saying it is currently possible for players to develop Det/Amb/Pro beyond the maximum levels of their teammates?

Yes - these mental attributes can change independently from the level of the rest of the squad, and there is no cap based on teammates' level.

42 minutes ago, edien1993 said:

taking the mentoring aspect out it aswell and letting the gods of fm decide

As I mentioned before, there is still a degree of random chance in the mental progression of players - but leaving it completely down to this would be far less realistic and remove the user's ability to have any affect on progression, which I'm sure would lead to a lot more frustration and anger. Imagine a wonderkid with strong mental stats in a professional squad becoming less and less determined just because the "fm gods" have decided so, with nothing the user could do to stop it :mad:

Just to emphasise - it is absolutely possible to replicate Ronaldo's 20/20/20 without directly using him as a mentor. I'm actually slightly reassured that it feels impossible, as that would imply it's a realistically difficult feat to achieve ;)

Cheers,

Andrew

 

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1 hour ago, edien1993 said:

i am also willing to send any and all saves that i have to you without any problems if you really want them

If you have a save from just before a change to a mental attribute that you think is inappropriate, we will absolutely look into it. Player progression is a very complex balancing act and any specific examples that don't look right can always help us to improve the way it works :thup:

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On 18/06/2019 at 15:06, edien1993 said:

ok you are anwsering my question what happens ... but you are not anwsering how that is realistic ... ? as i pointed out if ronaldo with the same personality and potential ability was 16 year old in fm he would never be able to keep his personality in fm ... yet in real life he did ... why because he had the kind of personality from a young age and nobody could change that ... i ask myself how many of you that are anwsering my questions know anything about psychology ? ... like seriously ... has seb wassell or you hunter simulated the game 100 years in advance ? ... i did ... nobody when checked every 10 years had half the personality that ronaldo has on the game ... if having a team of all 20 in personality(important ones) traits is unrealistic not having any is aswell therefore the game with this mechanic is flawed ... simple as that this isn't spaming but i just want my questions and solution seen and i what my questions anwsered directly no sidelining ... last time i gave him all the pictures that he needed and he wanted a save so i sent a save to fm support and what happened ? nothing ?!!!! ....this mechanic is flawed ... as i explained with the ronaldo example and the 100 year test ... you get perfectionists sometimes but unless you buy ronaldo  himself you will never get a 20 in all stats and i mean never ... not one in 1000 years of fm19 ... how is that realistic ? ... i understand that you made the tutoring worse fine by me ... but this mechanic is destroying every godlike personality wonderkid(even if hes born 20 in all personality stats he will not be able to keep them no matter what ... so no good tutour will be born for the future only average ones that arent even on the level of phil jones professional 18 in all important stats personality let alone ronaldo)  ...  NOW I WANT YOU TO ANWSER THIS QUESTION ... how can i get good tutors on the level of phil jones(not ronaldo) in the future(lets say if i started a save 100 years in the future) if every teams personality will destory every single potential tutor that will be born... please anwser only this last question ... you dont need any saves or anything for this to be anwsered prove me wrong please???? ... 

You need to chill out man, it's a game not real life! 

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43 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

Yes - these mental attributes can change independently from the level of the rest of the squad, and there is no cap based on teammates' level.

As I mentioned before, there is still a degree of random chance in the mental progression of players - but leaving it completely down to this would be far less realistic and remove the user's ability to have any affect on progression, which I'm sure would lead to a lot more frustration and anger. Imagine a wonderkid with strong mental stats in a professional squad becoming less and less determined just because the "fm gods" have decided so, with nothing the user could do to stop it :mad:

Just to emphasise - it is absolutely possible to replicate Ronaldo's 20/20/20 without directly using him as a mentor. I'm actually slightly reassured that it feels impossible, as that would imply it's a realistically difficult feat to achieve ;)

Cheers,

Andrew

 

i didnt say that fm gods should even touch the stats you misread that one ... i want them to remain static but i want the fm gods to create high potential players(and low) with varied stats in personality and have us decide who to and no to buy ... like it was in fm 16 ... as i said i didn't use any tutoring and the personalities were very high in my team because there where so many high potencial players with different personalities that i could simply choose who to bring in ... fm 16 felt natural to because of this cause the players that reached their potencial where either high level personality wise or had to make up it with alot of game time ... that's fair isn't it ? 

yet this squad dynamic personality change mechanic makes everything feel like a choir ... like i have to upkeep the high personality team leaders just for my wonderkids to have a chance of being close to the same level of personality of a phil jones(no ronaldo a damn phil jones) ... manufacturing personalites from my player is not the reason i play this game and simply takes away from the football part of it ... 

 

as i wrote in my save that i manage chelsea i have hazard kepa and kovacic as my team leaders how do i keep my youth players from losing their 19 20  determination for instance without selling them ? its simply not possible which is my main reason for hating this mechanic as it is to limiting personality wise ... you need to get rid of even the decent personality players just so you dont destroy your youth ... with this mechanic in place the game doesnt feel realistic at all ... you make players look like good little stupid soliders that become or al least come very close to what their leader is and this is literally the most correct description of this mechanic ... if this is realistic to you i would like to have a good long talk with the sports interactive psychologist that developed this mechanic as i am a psychologist myself and i completly disagree with how you portray personalites in this game and their changes ...

people develop their personalities of who they are through genetics and from their environment till the age of 16 or 18 after that they become less susceptible to changing their personality just cause they work with certain different personalites of people and im not saying they can't change but they usually dont ... the only real thing that causes notable or high personality changes in life are traumatic events ... as i know this is hard or impossible to replicate in a game i wont flame this mechanic but simply propose a solution to solve my problems with you keeping this mechanic in the game so those who feel that it works can enjoy it ... i personally dont ... SOLUTION : Simply put an option button at the start of every save if you want this mechanic to be in the game or not like you did with attribute masking .... PROBLEM SOLVED ... and till you make this mechanic better i can simply untick the option and have fun my way ...  is that not a reasonable fix ? 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, YouReds said:

You need to chill out man, it's a game not real life! 

my point exactly ... this mechanic is making a game a choir for me not something i wanna do for fun :)

Edited by edien1993

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Il 19/6/2019 in 07:24 , HUNT3R ha scritto:

 

Did either of you try Mentoring the affected youngsters? How did that turn out, because although they're affected by either the squad or influential players, you can try and at least counter it by getting them Mentored?

It's not just youngsters though...

I've tried to set up a Mentoring group, but is there even a pont if the only player with a decent personality and ok Determination is the newcomer in the lowest-ranked social group?

Basically, I'm asking a bunch of unprofessional, unambitious, lazy but somewhat influential players to mentor a player with BETTER traits, whose only "limit" is being new to the team or not high enough on the social totem pole...

It's like being the new intern guy in The Office... No matter how good you are, you can't fight against the sheer insanity of the working place, from the boss to the less important employees.

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4 hours ago, Andrew James said:

If you have a save from just before a change to a mental attribute that you think is inappropriate, we will absolutely look into it. Player progression is a very complex balancing act and any specific examples that don't look right can always help us to improve the way it works :thup:

oh and sorry i forgot to write on this part ... i already sent the save but i sent it to fm support is that okay or do i need to do it how you mentioned aswell  ... in 2045 as i made my check of the save there where only 2 tutors that have 18 in all 3 major personality stats  and could tutor in a club like chelsea without them being to low in ca to have an effect ... as for the other 2 they are from countries like denmark and argentina which mosty if not always spawn 18 year olds which means that when they spawn they are already top tier(because of the age they get a boost in ca from the very start opposed to the 16 year olds that spawn in top level countries) players at their club and therefore not as affected by this mechanic ... 

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Interesting read. I had a look at my 18+ in det, amb, prof in my savegame in 2039 and I got 6 players in total. 2 of them have a CA over 150 so the rest would probably not be transferred to Chelsea... ever.

I'll keep my eye on this guy to see how he develops over time. He's not at my club and in an inactive league so I don't know how much this affects him.

20-20-20.thumb.JPG.3dee5c60d2c5d83e6d0e06b115f63872.JPG

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3 hours ago, fmonit said:

Interesting read. I had a look at my 18+ in det, amb, prof in my savegame in 2039 and I got 6 players in total. 2 of them have a CA over 150 so the rest would probably not be transferred to Chelsea... ever.

I'll keep my eye on this guy to see how he develops over time. He's not at my club and in an inactive league so I don't know how much this affects him.

20-20-20.thumb.JPG.3dee5c60d2c5d83e6d0e06b115f63872.JPG

if they are under 150 they can still come to chelsea if they are young enough and have a high enough potencial ability ... but yeah as in my save you only have to useful tutors existing therefore i can see a trend here that the personalities are slowly but surely getting worse through time ... which kind of proves my point in this topic again ... but it would still be interesting to see what you find out as i have most of the countries set to active at least the top and mid tier european ones and south american ones such as the brazillian and argentinian leagues ... would love to hear what happens in your save ... 

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A few observations

First, it absolutely is possible to fix Determination, even in a place like Peru where the average player personality is awful. Unfortunately, that's via a mechanism of officially warning players about their poor performances which feels quite game-y (especially since it has no downside even if they don't agree). You're absolutely guaranteed to be able to warn your youngsters into being more determined faster than they lose determination if you pay attention to them. Not sure if this is how the game is intended to be played, but not convinced all my players' determination reverting to the mean is either...

Secondly, player personalities probably are too malleable (especially at the professionalism-freak end of the spectrum) and too randomly distributed,but the current system is probably better than the old perfect personality transplant mentoring system. The thing with mentoring groups is that mostly invisible changes of random numbers to other hidden numbers isn't going to please anyone even if it's working as intended. Especially not with assman recommendations generally being terrible and personality descriptions being intentionally terrible

Thirdly, let's be honest, the entire player personality module is a load of random-attributes spawns random results bollocks that has minimal connection with any of the actual personalities of any of the actual players in the database. Which is one of the reasons it's hidden...

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This is just a copy from what i wrote last on the fm support ticket so they have everything in this topic ... 

I have made this second thread on the forum cause the first time i got anwsered i was told to move it to bugs topics and didn't an anwser there so this is my main topic now ... look this mechanic simply doesn't work due to every high level personality getting downgraded ... ever since fm 16 this makes the game unplayable for me ... so im going to write what this mechanic does from the players point of view: 1.it kills all your wonderkids great personalities(if you dont find the squad leaders with better ones which is in most cases impossible in the saves that last longer then 4 or 5 years) 2. Second thing it does is forces you to buy the same good tutor players all the time if you dont want the wonderkid personality stats to go down which simply makes the game unfun and tedious plus it really isn't all that realistic no matter how you look at it ... 3. Ok now 3 is the example ... i play with chelsea i have lets say 10 new wonderkids(all great personalities lets say model professional or something) that i just bought from other clubs so now what i need to do to let them keep those personalities is to sell half my team(for example hazard kovacic arizzabalaga and others) and then if this isn't stupid enough i need to buy players like phil jones and somehow make him a team leader and same goes for other like him ... without that the stats of the wonderkids simply downgrade to get closer to the teamleaders personality stats which is just no sustainable long term or is but it completely takes the fun out of the game ... as i said in fm 16 this mechanic wasnt implemented yet and i had variety of personalities in my squad plus different players in every save that is fun ... this right now is just a choir to play at least for me ... so im hoping this mechanic gets taken out as soon as possible to give the player his choice back not limit him completely ... this is football manager not manifacture personalities if you want to keep them in the game manager ... thank you in advance ... 

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