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Hi so I've posted on here over the last couple of days about all the problems I've had in Spain with my Marbella side and it's been fantastic all the help I have received so many thanks for that.

Now I should be really happy because I was reading someone's take on Porto side from around the 04/05 season and implemented that into my side and it has worked wonders and we have pulled away from the relegation zone.

Now I'm not enjoying the save as I'm feeling that I'm cheating by using someone's else's ideas so the question is should I stay true to my beliefs and probably get relegated or should I stick with the fact that I've found a formula even though it's not my ideas so what would you do stick or twist and has anyone else been in this situation?

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I would say that if you look at almost all top manager, they have been inspired by someone else's tactical ideas, and they have used them to benefit their own tactics. So I definitely wouldn't call it cheating

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Pep ripped off Bielsa and Cruyff. Should he feel bad?

Imo, if you just implemented ideas you've seen, that's fine.

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As long as you understand why it's working, I think it's fine. 

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Thanks for the comments it's just the first time I've ever used someone's else tactical thoughts although I'm still using the basic principles I look for in my players 

If I survived this season I'll probably go back to my way of playing just nice to get people's thoughts 

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I was heavily inspired by Tifo's analysis of Porto's tactic in my own recreation. I think as someone else mentioned all managers borrow ideas from somewhere. You shouldn't feel guilty about it. It's great that it works for you :)

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It's worked really well in my Dynamo Kyiv, Valencia and Porto test saves. No Champions League trophies yet but got 2 Cups.

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You are only doing what every other coach in the world does. As mentioned, Pep is a product of working under Cruyff and Bielsa influences. 

Cruyff was a product of the coaches and Ajax as he was developing and playing.

My tactical approach comes from 40 odd years of playing, watching, refereeing IRL as well as ten years of FMing. I watch the TIFO videos a bit, read threads on here, even occasionally download a tactic that might suit my players and pull it apart to see how it works.

So, enjoy your game.

 

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If you've literally just copied somebody else's tactic, then for me I'd class that as cheating (though others wouldn't, and that's fine). If however you've listened to their reasoning behind the tactic, understood it and implemented similar ideas, then no that's not cheating at all as everybody else has said.

But what matters most is what you think. If you're now not enjoying it, there's no point in doing it is there? Playing any game is all about the enjoyment.

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15 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

Hi so I've posted on here over the last couple of days about all the problems I've had...<snip>

Now I'm not enjoying the save as I'm feeling that I'm cheating by using someone's else's ideas

The wisest of people know their limits and will listen to other's ideas :).

The vast majority of people who post in this forum looking for help (you included) aren't looking for help because they don't understand football.  They're not even looking for tactical help (again, you included).  They post because they don't fully understand how to translate their ideas into FM's tactical language.  They're looking for help translating their ideas into the technicalities of the tactical creator.  That's a language/translation issue, not a footballing or tactical issue.

So no, you're not cheating - you're doing nothing more than trying to understand how the jigsaw fits together.

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Thanks Herne I think you're right as I've played football at a good level but trying to implement what you know into the match engine is completely different 

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Agree with everyone else really..

I often come on here to look for assistance/inspiration. If I need to copy a tactic whilst I get my head around the game, I will do - and will often tweak it to suit me and my players when I’ve seen it in action.

I don’t think there are any overpowered plug and play tactics in this game anymore, so I don’t see a problem with finding inspiration elsewhere... especially with a game that can seem so complex and frustrating! 

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On 16/06/2019 at 19:52, Ciderarmy said:

Hi so I've posted on here over the last couple of days about all the problems I've had in Spain with my Marbella side and it's been fantastic all the help I have received so many thanks for that.

Now I should be really happy because I was reading someone's take on Porto side from around the 04/05 season and implemented that into my side and it has worked wonders and we have pulled away from the relegation zone.

Now I'm not enjoying the save as I'm feeling that I'm cheating by using someone's else's ideas so the question is should I stay true to my beliefs and probably get relegated or should I stick with the fact that I've found a formula even though it's not my ideas so what would you do stick or twist and has anyone else been in this situation?

This is how I learnt to play the game. I would come here, read around, try things out. I would often replicate tactics people posted about. To see how they worked, if I could see what the original poster saw, to see how changes affected things. I think it is a very normal part of the FM experience. If you want to transition towards making things on your own (I guess so, since you asked the question) then try to learn from the tactic you replicate. Why does it work? How can you change or adapt it to different situations? What happens when you change roles? Duties? Mentality? What about PPMs and different players with different attributes? I think there are all much easier to understand when you are working from a solid base that you can understand because someone has explained it to you before. Once you understand, you can translate that understanding into your own creations.

This is what I ended up doing. I am sure whenever I post a tactic people can recognize elements that have been posted on these forums over the years.

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On ‎16‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 18:52, Ciderarmy said:

Hi so I've posted on here over the last couple of days about all the problems I've had in Spain with my Marbella side and it's been fantastic all the help I have received so many thanks for that.

Now I should be really happy because I was reading someone's take on Porto side from around the 04/05 season and implemented that into my side and it has worked wonders and we have pulled away from the relegation zone.

Now I'm not enjoying the save as I'm feeling that I'm cheating by using someone's else's ideas so the question is should I stay true to my beliefs and probably get relegated or should I stick with the fact that I've found a formula even though it's not my ideas so what would you do stick or twist and has anyone else been in this situation?

Def not cheating in my opinion.

I had a good longball save as Wealdstone where I got them into the football league and although I had an idea in my head, using the guide to hoofball series helped translate my ideas into FM language.

I think everyone takes inspiration for other's ideas that are working and think could that fit into my own philosophy or not, and is it worth trying? I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

Look how many managers are now favouring the 4-2-3-1 formation, it had to start somewhere. Likewise, Alf Ramsey pioneered the 442 and there is some of his influence in all the 442s at all levels.

Cheating would be akin to picking a tactic like the exploits

 

 

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Posted (edited)

@Ciderarmy Such a strange coincidence that you have posted this thread now lol, I feel the exact same way as you.

I have taken a few ideas from @Experienced Defender based on a 4231 and implemented some of it in my 4231. Mainly the poacher, winger on attack and IF on support. I really like the idea of the winger on attack and IF on support and prefer it to the more often used winger on support and IF on attack, it makes more sense in my head.

I've now convinced myself that I'm copying him so therefore I can't start the save as it feels like I'm cheating :(

It's based on his recommendation for a 4231 here: 

 

His recommended roles and duties were: 

PO

IFsu             APsu            Wat

CMde     BBM

 

FBat     CDde    CDde     IWBde

SKde/su 

 

Here's my version: 

PO

IF (S) AM (S) W (A) 

DLP (D) BBM (S) 

WB (S) CD (D) BPD (D) FB (S) 

SK (S)

 

I had already picked BBM (S), I didn't take that role from ED. Quite a few of the TI's are the same, and the mentality is either Positive (the same) or Balanced. I really want to use it (my version) but I'm not sure if I should? I feel like because not all of it is my original idea, that I would be taking the easy route. It does have a total of 5 different roles compared to ED's though, and all I want is a 4231 that focuses on making the striker the main goalscorer. My version is the best I can come up with that makes sense to me, but also takes some of the logical roles from ED to make it a coherent tactic.

Any thoughts? 

Edited by Gee_Simpson

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1 hour ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I have taken a few ideas from @Experienced Defender based on a 4231 and implemented some of it in my 4231. Mainly the poacher, winger on attack and IF on support. I really like the idea of the winger on attack and IF on support and prefer it to the more often used winger on support and IF on attack, it makes more sense in my head.

I've now convinced myself that I'm copying him so therefore I can't start the save as it feels like I'm cheating :(

Relax mate, what you did has nothing to do with "cheating". You just used an example of a tactic that I offered as one possibility of how to set up a 4231. And you did not copy-pasted it, but just used it as an inspiration for your own tactic, which is pretty much different from the one I offered as an example. After all, you can compare the two tactical setups yourself and you'll clearly see the difference: 

 

1 hour ago, Gee_Simpson said:

His recommended roles and duties were: 

PO

IFsu             APsu            Wat

CMde     BBM

 

FBat     CDde    CDde     IWBde

SKde/su 

 

Here's my version: 

PO

IF (S) AM (S) W (A) 

DLP (D) BBM (S) 

WB (S) CD (D) BPD (D) FB (S) 

SK (S)

 

1 hour ago, Gee_Simpson said:

It does have a total of 5 different roles compared to ED's though

Btw, if that was "cheating", then I myself should be counted among the biggest "cheaters" for taking a lot of tactical ideas from our mods - Rashidi, Cleon, Herne - for creating my own tactics.

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Posted (edited)

You chose to use those ideas, @Ciderarmy, because you liked them and thought they might work so you have been involved and made a conscious decision. You should commend yourself and feel good about that.

Likewise if you’d read ideas you didn’t like, or didn’t think would work, then you’d have simply disregarded them and not given them another thought.

You used the idea with no guarantee of success. You made the decision. YOU DID. Nothing to feel bad about. Definitely not cheating.

Edited by Stuniverse

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2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Relax mate, what you did has nothing to do with "cheating". You just used an example of a tactic that I offered as one possibility of how to set up a 4231. And you did not copy-pasted it, but just used it as an inspiration for your own tactic, which is pretty much different from the one I offered as an example. After all, you can compare the two tactical setups yourself and you'll clearly see the difference

I have OCD you see, so the latest 'obsession' I've had is me being worried about copying people's tactics on Football Manager. It sounds like a silly minor thing but obviously it affects me much more than someone without OCD, it then gets to the point where I have to seek reassurance from people to move past it. It's a very annoying thing to live with and can (and does) attach itself to any subject really. 

 

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Btw, if that was "cheating", then I myself should be counted among the biggest "cheaters" for taking a lot of tactical ideas from our mods - Rashidi, Cleon, Herne - for creating my own tactics.

Yeah I suppose so :) I do agree with some of the points made by people in this thread too, managers like Guardiola etc have taken very similar ideas and then used them but with small refinements. I agree with what @Stuniverse has said above too.

Thanks for replying :thup:

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I believe there is no manager - both in FM and RL football - who was not inspired by some other manager/tactician. So don't worry, be happy :brock:

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FM19 is difficult. If someone else's ideas are working well for you, there's a good chance that you are contributing in a lot in terms of making those ideas work in your save and also in other facets of the game

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Just enjoy the game, if someone takes my ideas and runs with them and makes them his own I'd be proud of my contribution to the community's growth at large.

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The reason people look for advice is not because they dont know what theyre doing, i believe its because they cant get their ideas into football manager language which is badly written and not intuitive.

If they had a person in front of them and said play there and do this this and that, theyd have an easier time than trying to work out which role to pick with bizarre abritary names they never hear on tv, in the stadium or with their team mates if they play like Carrilero or Segundo Volante. And theyd also have an easier time than working out whether a players PPMs contradict their team instructions, which contradict their player instructions, which contradict the way they think the role works in their head, which contradicts the way the person who programmed the game thinks the role works, which contradicts the way they say a certain player playing the role in real life, which contradicts popularly held beliefs on the forums that x and y cannot accompany each other and that you shouldnt partner x with y etc etc.

 

A lot of people, myself included, come to the forum with an idea theyve thought of that works pretty well, but they just need advice on refining it. Or they apply football logic from the real world that doesnt seem to work in the game i believe.

 

None of which i would consider cheating, its just sharing thoughts.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

The reason people look for advice is not because they dont know what theyre doing, i believe its because they cant get their ideas into football manager language which is badly written and not intuitive.

Oh yeah, there's definitely an issue with that. It was worse a decade ago, btw. Translating Things into FM probably isn't as straight Forward as it appears from the inside (both longer term Play testers for SI, as well as SI staff). 

However, there's also an element of having bad ideas, and / or never asking the Right Questions. There's even Players that express that Football is a sandbox (which is naturally nonsense). F'r instance, realistically, what tacitcs would do in simple Terms is a) shaping a play style, perhaps suited to the squad at Hand b) influencing the odds a few. Yet there's so many people who have the perception that just because they lost a couple matches in a row in a low scoring sim as this, it must have been anything tactical being the sole root cause of this.

Similar, look how many (for various reasons) aren't looking for anything "tactical", but some Kind of super Formula that guarantees consistent overperformance in the tables. Heck, look at the amount of threads that start with: "Here's my super Formula tactic, what's wrong with it?" with no Notion of actually match Management to be seen. Plus, from my experience, there's more than enough players that if you would enquire them how teams in Football -- in General Terms -- increase the likelyhood of scoring / decrease the likelyhood of conceding in various Scenarios, they couldn't answer much. Which is probably the reason that at ist core, the game actually rewards Team Sports Basics. Anything on top of that always tends to be added Bonus Points over the AI (which is why I've stopped following tactical debates about FM Pretty much entirelly).

Edited by Svenc

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I have ideas on how I want a team to play (ie fast flowing attacking formations) but sometimes you can't do what you want and so have to look to adapt if this means using other people's ideas then so be it. Even the greatest managers have used other managers ideas.  You don't become a top manager in real life without looking at others and using their ideas.  It's not cheating using something that works, however, the tactic used (even those of your own making) will need to be adapted/tweeked over time. Anyone who has played FM over the years will tell you that the days of the perfect tactic are no longer as clear cut as in the early days when a plug and play tactic will have even the smallest club gaining top honours in a short time.  Don't look on using the ideas of someone else as cheating but view it as a mentoring process towards building a tactic that not only is yours but works. 

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