Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023

pedromanuelpinto · December 1, 2020

Thanks

Kharza_FM · December 1, 2020

19 hours ago, yonko said:

@Kharza_FM

FM21 Match Engine is the best one we have had for a long time. It's much better than FM17 or FM18.

@yonko downloaded the demo so we will see.. chopping at the bit to start a proper youth academy save with my beloved Chelsea and they young talent they have!

Not a bad first experience.. holy cow is the match day interface different though! This created some decent looking football..

Edited December 1, 2020 by Kharza_FM

04texag · December 2, 2020

3 hours ago, Kharza_FM said:

@yonko downloaded the demo so we will see.. chopping at the bit to start a proper youth academy save with my beloved Chelsea and they young talent they have!

Not a bad first experience.. holy cow is the match day interface different though! This created some decent looking football..

This looks familiar. Did you use the free 8 inspired roles for Mount and Havertz?

Edited December 2, 2020 by 04texag

Kharza_FM · December 2, 2020

3 minutes ago, 04texag said:

This looks familiar. Did you use the free 8 inspired roles for Mount and Havertz?

I did.. so I guess time to come clean... I've been lurking for awhile since you and I collaborated a bit on positional play. I fell out of favor with FM 2020 and FM altogether until I spent the time reading Ozil's thread from the very beginning and got the urge to play again. I went back to FM 18 and realized just how much better the football looked and worked on that version (by far the most I've invested in any version of the game and had some great success in a couple saves.. Castel di Sangro & Lusitania Lourosa from the bottom of Italian and Portuguese football to Champions League winners).

Here is what I learned trying to recreate the same idea in Germany with Dortmund.. One key thing to remember is that I coach competitive youth so I admit I see the game differently and want certain things. I'm a HUGE Bielsa fan and see the game in a very Dutch way.. fluid Total Football.. and coach that style in the teams and players I work with. My overriding goal was to bring fluid Total Football to Germany (and now I'll bring that same style to my favorite football club Chelsea!). The best way to think of the style of play I'm trying to produce is Brazilian Jogo Bonito meets Klopp's Heavy Metal Football. When do you attack at pace vs. when do you circulate the ball quickly moving the defense and look for openings.. that is the ultimate view of the game to me. I've spent time recreating the Brazilian National team from 1958 and 1970 so I did extensive deep dives in recreating certain players and styles of play (i.e Garrincha and what I've called "The Dribbler"). Think Christian Pulisic in today's game.. someone direct and that can beat that first defender and cause havoc to the opponents defensive shape. Might still start my own thread but for now I really enjoy collaborating with you guys so I'll just pile on until I feel like I have the time to commit to starting my own thread.

So my take on things

Ozil talked about how a highly structured style of play was good for younger players because it helped free them from their decision making prior to their mentals being up to snuff to raise fluidity and while I am onboard to the idea I found that it just didn't create very good looking football.. LOL! So I started working out my own progression from the ground up for the youth teams all the way through senior and what my ultimate goal style was. This is the progression I developed:

Phase 1 - Standard/Balanced Very Fluid - Club DNA attributes under 12
Phase 2 - Control/Positive/Attacking Very Fluid - Club DNA attributes 12-14 by attacking/defending units
Phase 3 - Overload/Very Attacking Very Fluid - Club DNA attributes 15+ across all DNA attributes (will give consideration for bravery and flair if you are a special player in the other areas)

The above boils down to operating at the HIGHEST TEMPO possible where the end result of MOST of your attacks is a shot on goal.

So what is that DNA?

Core Mentals - Teamwork, Anticipation, Decisions, Composure, Vision

Core Defending - Bravery, Concentration, Positioning, Tackling

Core Attacking - Flair, Acceleration, Off the Ball, First Touch, Passing, Technique

Mandatory Club Stat - Work Rate - 10 or under and you don't even see the pitch

Mentals combined with key technical skills allow you to operate at higher and higher tempos without giving up possession of the ball and ultimately resulting in a strike on goal. That is how I measure my systems and players.. you can literally SEE this in game on full match highlights when you have a team of solid older players hitting the key metrics and you drop in a youth player for that first game.. deer in the headlights.. but why? Mentals AND Technicals..

I've messed around with 433, 442, 3412, 343.. you name it. What it always comes down to me is 3 systems of play:

2-3-5 Attacking Shape - against teams playing with 1 striker
3-2-5 Attacking Shape - against teams playing with 2 strikers (remember that Bielsa comment.. his core philosophy is to always have 1 more defender than the other teams attacker)
Counter Attack System (right now for me that is a 4231) - Sometimes we can't boss the game because we run up against someone better than us.. results are what matters (the Jose in me and exactly how he has Tottenham playing right now) and in the immortal words of Stevie Nicols.. you need to learn how to properly DEFEND!

So I loved what @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said about how he designed his club at Benfica.. it was all around giving opportunities to 18 year olds. I structured my club very similar but also added another layer in which I wanted to make sure I influenced as much as possible the development of my young players from when they graduated the academy and hit the field for the first team. So I added a training element to my tactical progression (and by the way this literally is the very definition of what tactical periodization in training is all about) to make sure my players develop the way I want. So if we revisit our phases.. I'll layer this training concept:

Phase 1 - Standard/Balanced Very Fluid - Physical Training in FM 18
Phase 2 - Control/Positive/Attacking Very Fluid - Club DNA attributes 12-14 by attacking/defending units - Tactical training in FM 18
Phase 3 - Overload/Very Attacking Very Fluid - Club DNA attributes 15+ across all DNA attributes - Tactical training in FM 18

Not so easy in FM19+ though.. we will get there. In addition you want to smooth out any gross weakness in players to make them more total footballers. So let's take a look at the FM 21 version of Christian Pulisic:

So back to our club wide DNA..

Core Mentals - Teamwork (15), Anticipation (15), Decisions (14), Composure (12), Vision (14)

Core Defending - Bravery (9), Concentration (10), Positioning (8), Tackling (8)

Core Attacking - Flair (15), Acceleration (17), Off the Ball (15), First Touch (15), Passing (12), Technique (15)

So the bolded attributes are the ones he needs to work on to become a total footballer based on our standard and if he ever wants to get on the field for the big games where we need to play our counter system he better work on those Core Defending stats (even as an Inside Forward!). If you notice I put him on a Ball Winning Midfielder duty training and will focus train "Passing". This is because our squad plan will cover off on the Decision and Composure gap.

In addition to that we have a squad wide training schedule designed to boost the key mental stats that we care about (think about it as my replacement for the old Tactical Training in FM 18). I also made sure this schedule focused on working on core Club stat of Work Rate:

And leveraging this great training schedule spreadsheet we can see it should focus on the following areas:

That is how we go "all in" with our club vision and it drives everything we do and every decision we make. I look for players with high potential and good starting bravery, flair, and teamwork because they are harder to raise through training. I love converting tall midfielders to Ball playing CBs and regularly retrain strikers to IFs and make sure they are both footed (so will value either foot in scouting younger players highly).

Just getting started on my FM 21 Chelsea save (thank @yonko for getting me to take the plunge even though I swore I wouldn't buy it!) so I'll update you as I go.

crusadertsar · December 2, 2020

@Kharza_FM wow nice post! I like your idea of mixing Jogo Bonito with Klopps Heavy Metal Football. I think that's sorta in essence what Dutch Total Football is.

And I'm a huge Bielsa fan too. Looking forward to what you craft with Chelsea. Especially given all your inspirations

Edited December 2, 2020 by crusadertsar

04texag · December 2, 2020

20 minutes ago, Kharza_FM said:

I did.. so I guess time to come clean... I've been lurking for awhile since you and I collaborated a bit on positional play. I fell out of favor with FM 2020 and FM altogether until I spent the time reading Ozil's thread from the very beginning and got the urge to play again. I went back to FM 18 and realized just how much better the football looked and worked on that version (by far the most I've invested in any version of the game and had some great success in a couple saves.. Castel di Sangro & Lusitania Lourosa from the bottom of Italian and Portuguese football to Champions League winners).

Here is what I learned trying to recreate the same idea in Germany with Dortmund.. One key thing to remember is that I coach competitive youth so I admit I see the game differently and want certain things. I'm a HUGE Bielsa fan and see the game in a very Dutch way.. fluid Total Football.. and coach that style in the teams and players I work with. My overriding goal was to bring fluid Total Football to Germany (and now I'll bring that same style to my favorite football club Chelsea!). The best way to think of the style of play I'm trying to produce is Brazilian Jogo Bonito meets Klopp's Heavy Metal Football. When do you attack at pace vs. when do you circulate the ball quickly moving the defense and look for openings.. that is the ultimate view of the game to me. I've spent time recreating the Brazilian National team from 1958 and 1970 so I did extensive deep dives in recreating certain players and styles of play (i.e Garrincha and what I've called "The Dribbler"). Think Christian Pulisic in today's game.. someone direct and that can beat that first defender and cause havoc to the opponents defensive shape. Might still start my own thread but for now I really enjoy collaborating with you guys so I'll just pile on until I feel like I have the time to commit to starting my own thread.

So my take on things

Ozil talked about how a highly structured style of play was good for younger players because it helped free them from their decision making prior to their mentals being up to snuff to raise fluidity and while I am onboard to the idea I found that it just didn't create very good looking football.. LOL! So I started working out my own progression from the ground up for the youth teams all the way through senior and what my ultimate goal style was. This is the progression I developed:

Phase 1 - Standard/Balanced Very Fluid - Club DNA attributes under 12

Phase 2 - Control/Positive/Attacking Very Fluid - Club DNA attributes 12-14 by attacking/defending units

Phase 3 - Overload/Very Attacking Very Fluid - Club DNA attributes 15+ across all DNA attributes (will give consideration for bravery and flair if you are a special player in the other areas)

The above boils down to operating at the HIGHEST TEMPO possible where the end result of MOST of your attacks is a shot on goal.

So what is that DNA?

Core Mentals - Teamwork, Anticipation, Decisions, Composure, Vision

Core Defending - Bravery, Concentration, Positioning, Tackling

Core Attacking - Flair, Acceleration, Off the Ball, First Touch, Passing, Technique

Mandatory Club Stat - Work Rate - 10 or under and you don't even see the pitch

Mentals combined with key technical skills allow you to operate at higher and higher tempos without giving up possession of the ball and ultimately resulting in a strike on goal. That is how I measure my systems and players.. you can literally SEE this in game on full match highlights when you have a team of solid older players hitting the key metrics and you drop in a youth player for that first game.. deer in the headlights.. but why? Mentals AND Technicals..

I've messed around with 433, 442, 3412, 343.. you name it. What it always comes down to me is 3 systems of play:

2-3-5 Attacking Shape - against teams playing with 1 striker

3-2-5 Attacking Shape - against teams playing with 2 strikers (remember that Bielsa comment.. his core philosophy is to always have 1 more defender than the other teams attacker)

Counter Attack System (right now for me that is a 4231) - Sometimes we can't boss the game because we run up against someone better than us.. results are what matters (the Jose in me and exactly how he has Tottenham playing right now) and in the immortal words of Stevie Nicols.. you need to learn how to properly DEFEND!

So I loved what @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said about how he designed his club at Benfica.. it was all around giving opportunities to 18 year olds. I structured my club very similar but also added another layer in which I wanted to make sure I influenced as much as possible the development of my young players from when they graduated the academy and hit the field for the first team. So I added a training element to my tactical progression (and by the way this literally is the very definition of what tactical periodization in training is all about) to make sure my players develop the way I want. So if we revisit our phases.. I'll layer this training concept:

Phase 1 - Standard/Balanced Very Fluid - Physical Training in FM 18

Phase 2 - Control/Positive/Attacking Very Fluid - Club DNA attributes 12-14 by attacking/defending units - Tactical training in FM 18

Phase 3 - Overload/Very Attacking Very Fluid - Club DNA attributes 15+ across all DNA attributes - Tactical training in FM 18

Not so easy in FM19+ though.. we will get there. In addition you want to smooth out any gross weakness in players to make them more total footballers. So let's take a look at the FM 21 version of Christian Pulisic:

So back to our club wide DNA..

Core Mentals - Teamwork (15), Anticipation (15), Decisions (14), Composure (12), Vision (14)

Core Defending - Bravery (9), Concentration (10), Positioning (8), Tackling (8)

Core Attacking - Flair (15), Acceleration (17), Off the Ball (15), First Touch (15), Passing (12), Technique (15)

So the bolded attributes are the ones he needs to work on to become a total footballer based on our standard and if he ever wants to get on the field for the big games where we need to play our counter system he better work on those Core Defending stats (even as an Inside Forward!). If you notice I put him on a Ball Winning Midfielder duty training and will focus train "Passing". This is because our squad plan will cover off on the Decision and Composure gap.

In addition to that we have a squad wide training schedule designed to boost the key mental stats that we care about (think about it as my replacement for the old Tactical Training in FM 18). I also made sure this schedule focused on working on core Club stat of Work Rate:

And leveraging this great training schedule spreadsheet we can see it should focus on the following areas:

That is how we go "all in" with our club vision and it drives everything we do and every decision we make. I look for players with high potential and good starting bravery, flair, and teamwork because they are harder to raise through training. I love converting tall midfielders to Ball playing CBs and regularly retrain strikers to IFs and make sure they are both footed (so will value either foot in scouting younger players highly).

Just getting started on my FM 21 Chelsea save (thank @yonko for getting me to take the plunge even though I swore I wouldn't buy it!) so I'll update you as I go.

Excellent post mate! Really excited to see more of what you do with the Chelsea save. And love that both of you are giving much love to my American Homeboy! I really enjoy this collab we all have going right now. I'm learning from you guys for sure!

Kharza_FM · December 3, 2020

So a quick update on my progression in FM 21 with Chelsea..

Once I spent the 4 hours setting up my save.. which pretty much accounted for selling or releasing all of the dead weight at the club we got down to business with actually hitting the "Continue" button for the first time..

U18 squad

Still looking for a decent GK to add to the squad but these boys are currently sitting top of the table:

I have them playing the second phase of our progression and they get better as they are becoming more fluent in the system... I've been monitoring the team though because even though some of the players tick the mentals box for the system there are still a good number that are off the pace when it comes to Anticipation, Decisions, and Vision. So far so good though!

It actually wasn't that hard to develop a training schedule for the group either since I just wanted to switch the focus from Tactical to Physical attributes for the U18 squad. I did a simple swap our of senior squad main training schedule for physical and created this one for the U18s. Again remember training is the most important part of players under 18 so try to get to only 1 game a week when you can. So far the boys have responded very well and the attributes we are focusing on are definitely being improved quickly with our training schedule. The one thing to note is that due to the higher intensity of our team training we do need to monitor overall injury risk for the squad and I've toned down individual training and individual focus to create no more than a heavy training load and even reducing that for players that are deemed to be at a higher injury risk. Can't develop if you are hurt and can't train or play!

So my challenge at first was figuring out the right fit for the talent that Chelsea has. You see from my above post that my first instinct was to go with Timo Werner at the F9.. yeah that was pretty much a failed strategy and his happiness and performance showed me how poor of a management decision that was.. I should have listened to my own advice and looked at his stats in relation to our club DNA..

Yeah.. 10 Decisions.. 10 Teamwork.. and 12 Vision.. that isn't going to cut it as a F9 for our club! Thank you ESPN FC and Stevie Nicol.. who recently mentioned that he would like to find a way to incorporate all the young attacking talent in the side at one time.. my inspiration was to give Kai a shot at the F9 role and boy was that a revelation! As you can see I have the senior team and the U18 team pretty much playing the same system right now. I've tried out Attacking mentality with the first team and they didn't do bad but I felt they bossed the game a bit more on Positive so I thought I'd give them at least half the season on Positive with hardcore tactical training before we moved to Attacking mentality.

So after a bit of chop and change I moved Kai to the F9.. Timo to the AMR position and Pulisic to the pseudo Mezzala role that Kai used to fill... the result was absolute brilliance and Aston Villa didn't know what hit them!

Timo ended up with a run of play goal, penalty, and assisted on a goal.. but to me the perfect example of the system was the first goal scored by Kai and assisted by Pulisic.. nothing better than attacking the gaps created between the CBs and FBs!

On the academy front.. I've been working to get feeder club links setup with nations that have the highest rated nations for youth regens. The nations that I've prioritized are the following:

Germany
Italy
France
Spain
Brazil
Argentina
Turkey
Mexico
Egypt
Nigeria

Tier 2 nations are:

Portugal
Belgium
Holland
Columbia
Russia
USA
Algeria
Ivory Coast
Japan
South Korea
Serbia

The first list is nations that have high regard when it comes to generating youth regens and I'm hoping to pull a few of them into our youth intake with these feeder relationships.

I'll update when I get this years youth intake to see who might have come from the couple of feeder club links I've been able to setup prior to youth intake date in England.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Experienced Defender
unsanctioned external link

PequenoGenio · December 3, 2020

2 horas atrás, Kharza_FM disse:

Once I spent the 4 hours setting up my save.. which pretty much accounted for selling or releasing all of the dead weight at the club we got down to business with actually hitting the "Continue" button for the first time..

I tought that i was the only one that spent an huge amount of time before hit the continue button for the first time...

Keep on given because i'm learning a lot with all of you.

04texag · December 3, 2020

11 hours ago, Kharza_FM said:

the academy front.

Which type of affiliate do you setup? As in when you ask the board what's the reason? I can never get this working or get them to accept.

Kharza_FM · December 3, 2020

18 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Which type of affiliate do you setup? As in when you ask the board what's the reason? I can never get this working or get them to accept.

I can't make the request to get the exact language but it is the one with regards to "foreign talent/youngsters". You can also negotiate existing affiliate links for this and that was the first thing I did since Chelsea already have a link with Vitesse:

That is what the phrase looks like when you get it setup. At first the board doesn't trust you enough to pick the club but eventually they allow you to pick what club you want to create an affiliate link with and that is when you can start targeting specific clubs to make these links with. Also it's key to get a link setup to the clubs you want at first through normal loan deals and then you can negotiate that up to include youth regens down the road. It is a LONG TERM play though and as O-zil briefly mentioned it takes some time to get everything rolling.. it's why I start it right away at the beginning of a save. I literally check every month to see if the affiliate option has come back up on the board interaction screen and try to time this when we are having success as a club. It's a big reason why I prioritize the nations with the best chance of good youth regens, but early on when I can't choose the club I try and take what options the board gives me in either Tier 1 or Tier 2 list from above.

04texag · December 3, 2020

7 minutes ago, Kharza_FM said:

Also it's key to get a link setup to the clubs you want at first through normal loan deals and then you can negotiate that up to include youth regens down the road.

Can you elaborate this? Sorry not sure exactly what you mean here.

Giacch · December 3, 2020

Very interessant post @Kharza_FM, unpatient for de rest of the season.

I try to play like you with a little team.

Can you detail me your P.I. at any players ? THX

Edited December 3, 2020 by Giacch

Kharza_FM · December 3, 2020

Just now, 04texag said:

Can you elaborate this? Sorry not sure exactly what you mean here.

Sure so this ties in a bit with your Club Vision.. in my case Chelsea have two key Club Vision items:

Develop players using the club's youth system
Sign young players to develop for profit

This means that loaning out players for development is something that you can twist the boards arm to agree to. So in the case where I want to target a specific club for youth regen recruitment AND I wouldn't mind having the option to loan players to that club to develop (think like Spain second division.. Portugal first division.. Germany second division) I will approach setting up the affiliate link by FIRST asking the board to setup that affiliate link to allow me to loan players out and then negiotate that affiliate link at a later time to include getting foreign youth recruits (just like I did with the existing Vitesse link).

Now I'm not sure if this still holds in FM 21.. but previously the "Look for Affiliate Club" and "Negotiate Existing Affiliation" where on separate "internal timers" meaning you could be looking for new clubs at the same time you are trying to negotiate existing ones. This entire system isn't just good for youth regens.. and actually I learned these techniques taking really low sides up the ranks and used this primarily to generate extra revenue through the marketing link option (the "The presence of Chelsea within Netherlands will be a major benefit to all merchandising sales" line). For lower league clubs this is how I would get the affiliate link setup in the first place, because the club was so poor the board was always eager for new revenue links, and then I'd upgrade that to include loans and/or youth recruits.

04texag · December 3, 2020

Ok awesome, this is what I was thinking you meant. I just did this, so I went to a team in Slovenia we had a link with, then negotiated it to add the foreign youngsters bit.

Unfortunately, you don't talk to the board about stuff in FM21 the same as before. So I asked for additional affiliates and it just says the board will get back to you, so you can't plead a case or state why.

Kharza_FM · December 3, 2020

7 minutes ago, Giacch said:

Very interessant post, unpatient for de rest of the season.

I try to play like you with a little team.

Can you detail me your P.I. at any players ? THX

Only one position that really uses any P.I.'s and that is the CM-S positions. They are essentially a poor man's Mezzala designed to attack the half spaces and maintain the central diamond between the F9 dropping and the DLP-D

F9

CM CM

DLP

The only real reason I don't go with a Mezzala in those spots is because of the "Stay Wider" instruction hard coded into that role. I found that they would end up in the same spaces as the IFs sometimes and weren't really in a good supporting position. I might try introducing that role back in but Guido always did great things by tailoring "stock" roles with PIs to make a very specific function and I personally stick to that because with U18 teams or lower league teams you can do a lot of individual player tailoring so that if you have a good CM with decisions, passing, and vision, but poor dribbling you can tailor that individual player in that role to just not "Dribble More" but keep the rest of the PIs.

Here is the PIs for the CM-S (same for both sides):

Just a note on "Shoot Less Often".. you will see me use that PI alot across my front line and more attacking midfielders. It is probably an old habit from the FM 18 days playing lower leagues where raising mentality and tempo caused players to choose to shoot from really bad areas/angles. It's just stuck with me. So that PI is on the CMs, IFs, and F9. Sometimes when I'm playing 3 back systems with WBs I'll also put it on them. But a CM with good Long Shots I might individually take that PI off and let them crack a few from outside the box as it's a good source of goals as I end up with really developed players.

Kharza_FM · December 3, 2020

3 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Ok awesome, this is what I was thinking you meant. I just did this, so I went to a team in Slovenia we had a link with, then negotiated it to add the foreign youngsters bit.

Unfortunately, you don't talk to the board about stuff in FM21 the same as before. So I asked for additional affiliates and it just says the board will get back to you, so you can't plead a case or state why.

Yep but I'm hoping as the saves goes on it will be back to the we will let you recommend an affiliate... it always switched when you got a year or two into a save and the board started to trust you more. We shall see!

04texag · December 3, 2020

1 minute ago, Kharza_FM said:

Yep but I'm hoping as the saves goes on it will be back to the we will let you recommend an affiliate... it always switched when you got a year or two into a save and the board started to trust you more. We shall see!

Ya, they straight up denied me though. So without being able to say any reason why, that it aligns with club vision, can't argue for it. And we are way in the black as we are crushing it. I'll try after the year when the prize money all hits.

Kharza_FM · December 3, 2020

Just now, 04texag said:

Ya, they straight up denied me though. So without being able to say any reason why, that it aligns with club vision, can't argue for it. And we are way in the black as we are crushing it. I'll try after the year when the prize money all hits.

Yeah but did you choose the option to argue? Roman pulled that crap on me when I asked to increase youth recruitment and I chose the option to "discuss" it with him and told him he was being a tool and was measuring me on developing youth talent.. he eventually relented! Look at the bottom right of that denied message and you should see the option to discuss it with them.

04texag · December 3, 2020

2 minutes ago, Kharza_FM said:

Yeah but did you choose the option to argue? Roman pulled that crap on me when I asked to increase youth recruitment and I chose the option to "discuss" it with him and told him he was being a tool and was measuring me on developing youth talent.. he eventually relented! Look at the bottom right of that denied message and you should see the option to discuss it with them.

IN fm 21 there is no option for anything. You click on the button to make a board request, and you just get a pop up that says, the board will get back to you.

I didn't see any options on the rejected email.

Edited December 3, 2020 by 04texag

Kharza_FM · December 3, 2020

1 minute ago, 04texag said:

IN fm 21 there is no option for anything. You click on the button to make a board request, and you just get a pop up that says, the board will get back to you.

Check again.. when you first get that denied message you have the option from within that Inbox notification to discuss it with the board:

You can't see it now because I already discussed it.. but where the blue circle in the above photo was an option for me to discuss it and pretty much make my case on why I disagree with the board. That allows you to get the old dialogue from before where you say we are being left behind by rivals, etc.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Kharza_FM

04texag · December 3, 2020

I must have missed it but now can't go back to it. I'll check that next time it happens. Thanks

kalokalitokalo · December 3, 2020

Hi guys,

This thread is one I've been following the most.

Have you tried the 4-1-4-1 shape (or 2-3-4-1) with 4 AM? In a testing league I have (no injuries and the players above 120CA with a future transfer set) I tried yesterday and in the first 15 games of the season I had good results (like 70% of games won). Now I'm not at home but the roles and shape were something like this:

Team mentality balanced and I honestly can't remember much more than every player with shoot less often and close down more instructions.

In La Liga my possesion stats were 63% and something like 4992 passes in 10 games, with some nice football and goals.

In Champions 16 points out of 18 possible (was an easy group with Atalanta as the strongest opponent).

Team is Atletico de Madrid, which is well suited for squad rotation in this formation IMO. Not many goals compared with Guardiola's teams, something between 1,8 and 2,1 goals per match and like 0,6-0,8 conceded per match (mostly via penalty, I guess that because of the agressive tackling).

The next test would probably putting the forward as F9 instead of PF. The idea is to have the Xavi-Iniesta-Messi combination with the "partnership lines" in tactic screen (sorry I'm Spanish and I don't know how it's called in English...)

Until the youth intake problem is solved I will be working on a total footbal system taking this system as a basis.

Keep the good work as this thread is quite interesting to read!

Kharza_FM · December 3, 2020

1 hour ago, kalokalitokalo said:

Have you tried the 4-1-4-1 shape (or 2-3-4-1) with 4 AM? In a testing league I have (no injuries and the players above 120CA with a future transfer set) I tried yesterday and in the first 15 games of the season I had good results (like 70% of games won). Now I'm not at home but the roles and shape were something like this:

That shape was very similar to the shape I used in FM 20 because players in the CM space weren't behind the correct line of pressure to receive the ball building out of the back. It appears so far that in FM 21 that positioning has been fixed but I'll keep an eye on it. Either way you want those positions attacking the half spaces to create that front 5.

Kharza_FM · December 3, 2020

Alright one more quick update and I'll stop hijacking the thread so much!

We started the campaign off in much better shape than Frank did going the first 8 games without conceding a single goal and looking the part as a title contender.

The first mini hiccup in our season was the away game against Arsenal.. I figured this was a good time to try out my counter system since Arsenal was tied at the top of the table with us at the time and also unbeaten. Yes needless to say I think I got those tactics wrong..

If giving up such an early goal wasn't bad enough.. Cesar went bonkers with a two-footed challenge and got sent off with a straight red card. This really put us in a tight spot and my decision based on the personnel I had on the field and available to me on the bench was to switch to a back 3 with Pulisic and Ziyech as WBs (I know right?!).. well that worked a treat when Ziyech played a great ball over the top that Werner ran on to and calmly chipped the keeper to tie the game 1-1. At that point we shut up shop and saw the game out to steal the point.

The next big challenge we faced was this ridiculous schedule of 3 games in 6 days.. I mean WTF!! And if that wasn't bad enough the second game was home in the Champions League against Real Madrid and then 3 days later AWAY against Man City in the league. I was like what the heck am I going to do here.. well time to see if some of these young pups are ready for the big time.

Lewis Bate from our U18 squad got the start and we brought a bright young CB Nnamdi Collins off the bench to give him his debut as well.

Bate was very tidy on the ball and generated many of the good chances and combined extremely well on the left side with Emerson. As you can see from the above xG as well we totally deserved to run out winners of the match and didn't really live up to our "aggressive, clinical" rating:

Disappointing result but considering the almost full rotation of the squad due to these crazy fixture congestions I can't really complain all that much.. result is a result!

I wasn't really concerned about the Madrid game since it was at the bridge and we put out our first choice side who got a good 1-0 result and probably could have had a few more. In general though the game was a pretty dour affair and just like in real life Madrid had absolutely no threats going forward (even after signing Di Maria from PSG during the transfer window).

That brings us to the big away tie vs. Man City.. the measure of positional play.. against the master himself. I was torn what to do here.. my natural instinct was to play on the counter.. sit deep, work hard, and hit them on the break when they opened up. The problem was that really didn't work so well against Arsenal and the system I have needs much more work before it's ready for prime time. So true to my stated intention I match Klopp Heavy Metal Football with Brazilian Flair!

Minor tweaks to the system sure.. but the tactical genius was the player selection. I prioritized players that could physical challenge for the ball, work hard, but when they won the ball they would keep it and play our intelligent brand of creative fluid soccer and by word did it work! Kante, Kovacic, and Jorginho BOSSED the game and our approach starved Aguero from even being in the game (he ended up with a 6.1 rating!). The only dangerous person on the field for Man City was Sterling and that was just because of his dribbling skill. But if you notice that was the one tactical innovation that I employed from FM 21 locker.. FORCE OPPOSITION OUTSIDE. There was no cutting to the middle and wrecking havoc on our defensive shape.. and every time he did someone in the midfield kicked him in the shins!

It was a tense affair and our momentum was building as the game went on.. and then with the spark of brilliance in the 85th minute.. sub Callum Hudson-Odoi runs on to a beautiful through ball played into the box by Reece James and buries it to give us the 1-0 win and that was all she wrote and sends us to the top of the table!

This game was the glimmer of hope that I was looking for in building our vision for how the club will be playing in the future. Proper defending combined with a fluid possession oriented attack.

0 shots On Target AND we had the ball for 57% of the time.. against Man City and the master no less!

Tactical Insight

Ok so fun story to tell for sure but let's break down what we can learn from this..

So we need to remember that Football Manager at the end of the day is a simulation engine and it is the numbers that drive most of what we see out on the pitch. I have built the above view that I should lovingly call the "Jose Guide to Counter Attacking". If you want to be wicked hard to breakdown defensively.. get a view like that with as much "blue numbers" as possible. 7 rock solid defenders with 1 technical hold up striker + 2 fast creative wingers.. this has always been the typical makeup I use to create that heavy metal counter attack system. For me the evolution/revolution was the fact that this group could ALSO keep the ball..

Just as many "blue numbers" under our key attacking DNA as well (8 players with flair over 11 too with just our keeper and CBs not there). Solid technicals and really strong off the ball movement. Work Rate + Acceleration + Off the Ball = brilliant fluid attack.. Bravery + Concentration + Positioning + Work Rate = solid tough to breakdown defense! Consider WHO you are playing in your system not just what your system is designed to do from player roles and duties.

04texag · December 3, 2020

28 minutes ago, Kharza_FM said:

Alright one more quick update and I'll stop hijacking the thread so much!

We started the campaign off in much better shape than Frank did going the first 8 games without conceding a single goal and looking the part as a title contender.

The first mini hiccup in our season was the away game against Arsenal.. I figured this was a good time to try out my counter system since Arsenal was tied at the top of the table with us at the time and also unbeaten. Yes needless to say I think I got those tactics wrong..

If giving up such an early goal wasn't bad enough.. Cesar went bonkers with a two-footed challenge and got sent off with a straight red card. This really put us in a tight spot and my decision based on the personnel I had on the field and available to me on the bench was to switch to a back 3 with Pulisic and Ziyech as WBs (I know right?!).. well that worked a treat when Ziyech played a great ball over the top that Werner ran on to and calmly chipped the keeper to tie the game 1-1. At that point we shut up shop and saw the game out to steal the point.

The next big challenge we faced was this ridiculous schedule of 3 games in 6 days.. I mean WTF!! And if that wasn't bad enough the second game was home in the Champions League against Real Madrid and then 3 days later AWAY against Man City in the league. I was like what the heck am I going to do here.. well time to see if some of these young pups are ready for the big time.

Lewis Bate from our U18 squad got the start and we brought a bright young CB Nnamdi Collins off the bench to give him his debut as well.

Bate was very tidy on the ball and generated many of the good chances and combined extremely well on the left side with Emerson. As you can see from the above xG as well we totally deserved to run out winners of the match and didn't really live up to our "aggressive, clinical" rating:

Disappointing result but considering the almost full rotation of the squad due to these crazy fixture congestions I can't really complain all that much.. result is a result!

I wasn't really concerned about the Madrid game since it was at the bridge and we put out our first choice side who got a good 1-0 result and probably could have had a few more. In general though the game was a pretty dour affair and just like in real life Madrid had absolutely no threats going forward (even after signing Di Maria from PSG during the transfer window).

That brings us to the big away tie vs. Man City.. the measure of positional play.. against the master himself. I was torn what to do here.. my natural instinct was to play on the counter.. sit deep, work hard, and hit them on the break when they opened up. The problem was that really didn't work so well against Arsenal and the system I have needs much more work before it's ready for prime time. So true to my stated intention I match Klopp Heavy Metal Football with Brazilian Flair!

Minor tweaks to the system sure.. but the tactical genius was the player selection. I prioritized players that could physical challenge for the ball, work hard, but when they won the ball they would keep it and play our intelligent brand of creative fluid soccer and by word did it work! Kante, Kovacic, and Jorginho BOSSED the game and our approach starved Aguero from even being in the game (he ended up with a 6.1 rating!). The only dangerous person on the field for Man City was Sterling and that was just because of his dribbling skill. But if you notice that was the one tactical innovation that I employed from FM 21 locker.. FORCE OPPOSITION OUTSIDE. There was no cutting to the middle and wrecking havoc on our defensive shape.. and every time he did someone in the midfield kicked him in the shins!

It was a tense affair and our momentum was building as the game went on.. and then with the spark of brilliance in the 85th minute.. sub Callum Hudson-Odoi runs on to a beautiful through ball played into the box by Reece James and buries it to give us the 1-0 win and that was all she wrote and sends us to the top of the table!

This game was the glimmer of hope that I was looking for in building our vision for how the club will be playing in the future. Proper defending combined with a fluid possession oriented attack.

0 shots On Target AND we had the ball for 57% of the time.. against Man City and the master no less!

Tactical Insight

Ok so fun story to tell for sure but let's break down what we can learn from this..

So we need to remember that Football Manager at the end of the day is a simulation engine and it is the numbers that drive most of what we see out on the pitch. I have built the above view that I should lovingly call the "Jose Guide to Counter Attacking". If you want to be wicked hard to breakdown defensively.. get a view like that with as much "blue numbers" as possible. 7 rock solid defenders with 1 technical hold up striker + 2 fast creative wingers.. this has always been the typical makeup I use to create that heavy metal counter attack system. For me the evolution/revolution was the fact that this group could ALSO keep the ball..

Just as many "blue numbers" under our key attacking DNA as well (8 players with flair over 11 too with just our keeper and CBs not there). Solid technicals and really strong off the ball movement. Work Rate + Acceleration + Off the Ball = brilliant fluid attack.. Bravery + Concentration + Positioning + Work Rate = solid tough to breakdown defense! Consider WHO you are playing in your system not just what your system is designed to do from player roles and duties.

I've really been enjoying your work so far, top drawer stuff! That was a great win, and I love how you walked us through your thought process with the midfield changes, and it paid off!

PequenoGenio · December 3, 2020

Giving this a go...

First - The CM (s) role is so underrated.... He could be turned into many diferent things....

Second:

In the defense use only one BPD just to play a little safer from the back because in this year version the BPD is way more attaking minded abd take more riscky passes then last year.

On the right in the begining i have an Mezzala on suport but he and the IW end up using the same space. So when i see what @Kharza_FM do with the CM i do the same with my RCM and add the PI "more direct pass" to make it somekind of a hybrid mezzala+ap. In order to not lose the defensive help that the IW has in the support duty and also to take advantage of the PI's that I gave to the RCM, I added to the IF the PI to "get further foward".

The LCM is more "static" in order to not compromise the team's solidity, as the WB on that side attacks a little more than the one on the right (mainly because the IF comes inside earlier than the IW). Also my intention is not to have such a one-dimensional team, using the principles of the great manual "Pairs and Combinations" .

The front 4 have the "press more" active in order to do the Rashidi's split-block.

My only doubt is among the "lower tempo", "dribble less" since I don't want a passive possession or waste time and lose an opportunity where a more risky pass or a dribble can make a difference. At the same time, I don't want the team to be too free to "do whatever they want".

Any advise from you masters?

Edited December 3, 2020 by PequenoGenio

Kharza_FM · December 3, 2020

35 minutes ago, PequenoGenio said:

My only doubt is among the "lower tempo", "dribble less" since I don't want a passive possession or waste time and lose an opportunity where a more risky pass or a dribble can make a difference. At the same time, I don't want the team to be too free to "do whatever they want".

Ok great time to have this conversation.. Tempo Tempo Tempo.. to me it is the key to the game but on a match by match basis. So what do I mean by that.. I look at the game in terms of two aspects.. speed of decision making and risk in decisions. So let's see if I can explain this without video!

Tempo

Tempo is the speed in which you ask players to make decisions. The spectrum is take more time on the ball to make a decision when the slide is to the left.. take less time to make a decision when the slider is to the right..

Take the middle of the road amount of time to make a decision

So I included the in game text of this tempo level.. this means make a decision on "what is next really f'ing fast!"

Ok so I know everyone is saying yes that's great we understand that.. the real question you have is what is the IDEAL tempo for a given game! The answer to that question is simple..

"The ideal tempo for a game is when your players release the ball right before they are closed down" - So.. they either pass, shot, dribble RIGHT when the defender closes them down. That is your ideal tempo and it changes every game based on how the OTHER team is playing. If they aren't closing you down.. keep your tempo low (players have more time to make good decisions). When a team is high pressing you.. you need to make quicker decisions hence play with a higher tempo. You figure this out by watching the first 15 minutes of a match on "Full Match" settings. And you watch as the ball is passed around.. are my players getting closed down.. are they releasing the ball prior to getting closed down or holding it (and sometimes losing it when they are under pressure.. i.e. low composure attribute). Move tempo up or down based on what you see in the match.

READ WHAT I JUST POSTED AGAIN.. ONE MORE TIME..

Tempo is about moving the defense to create gaps that you can exploit... but you must have players with the mentals to actual execute at that level. This is why one of the foundations of my approach is playing at the highest tempo possible that allows the MAJORITY of our attacks to end up with a strike on goal.

Risk

Risk = Mentality.. BUT at an individual level! This is the single greatest reason why O-zil (and others) have a problem with FM19+.. they REMOVED the ability to finely control individual mentality. What is individual mentality you ask?

Prior to FM 19 this used to be represented in blocks of 20 "values".. so you could work up to having players operate at similar individual mentalities. This ultimately controls the spacing between players on the field. Have attacking players with high mentality ("Very Attacking" in FM 19+) and players with lower mentality ("Balanced") and this creates a GAP between them positioned on the field. So if I have an IF on the right side with a Very Attacking mentality and a fullback on the right side with a Balanced mentality there will be a HUGE space between these players on the field (the IF could be by the corner flag and the FB is sitting at midfield.. it can be that drastic). This is why you will see a lot of old school guys use the mentality calculators created here: https://theresonlyoneball.com/2020/05/22/an-individual-player-mentality-calculator-for-football-manager-2020/

The reason is that to really create a "fluid" Total Football system you need to make sure that there isn't a large gap between the individual mentalities of the players.. so I want my IF and my FB to BOTH be at the "Attacking" mentality.. this will keep them closely positioned on the pitch and available to support each other. It also prevents spaces and gaps from opening in your team shape defensively that a team can exploit during transitions (we win the ball.. we lose the ball).

So let's bring this home with a very tangible example.. My system employs IF-S on the right and left side with WB-S on either side as well. If I just go with a stock mentality of Positive and those roles and duties this is the individual mentalities of my wide positions:

Very Attacking for the IFs and Positive for the Fullbacks. This will create a situation where it's very unlikely that the fullbacks will overlap our IFs all that often and if they do it will only be when we have consolidated possession in the opponents half. So how can we change this behavior? We add the overlap instruction.. what this does is REDUCES the individual mentality of the IF and RAISES the individual mentality of our FB. So to give you the example I will go with ONLY overlapping on the right side.. this gives us the following individual mentalities:

Now my AMR and DR are both at attacking mentality and the chance of an overlap happening and essential the space between these two players will be more compact and how they are positioned in our shape.. where we will see more of a gap on the left side (seriously TRY this in game and watch on full highlights and you will see the gap difference on the right and left sides of your formation).

So why does this matter? It matters for spacing of your shape.. so what your attacking AND defending/transition shape will look like and more importantly.. Mentality = RISK TAKING. The higher the individual mentality the more risk that player will take.. meaning the more chance they will try a risky pass or the way I think about it.. a risky DECISION. Could be a dribble, shot, or pass. Back to my comment about really bad long shots in lower leagues on higher mentalities and the need for the PI and sometimes PPM of reducing long shots. The challenge is balancing this across your tactic AND at the individual level. I saw a great post about the BPD in FM 21.. that player will naturally take more risks when playing passes.. but a No Nonsense CB will regularly clear the ball long.. why? It's not as risky as trying to thread a ball into the midfielder who is dropping deep and marked. Risk vs. Reward.. but at the INDIVIDUAL level. This is also where player attributes play a HUGE role.. you have to have really good mentals AND technicals to play a Very Fluid Overload system at higher tempos because it forces the players to make really risky decisions QUICKLY. So the moral of the story is to play at the highest tempo with the most amount of risk in key positions that the attributes of your players can support.. easy right?

Edited December 3, 2020 by Kharza_FM

04texag · December 3, 2020

11 minutes ago, Kharza_FM said:

Ok great time to have this conversation.. Tempo Tempo Tempo.. to me it is the key to the game but on a match by match basis. So what do I mean by that.. I look at the game in terms of two aspects.. speed of decision making and risk in decisions. So let's see if I can explain this without video!

Tempo

Tempo is the speed in which you ask players to make decisions. The spectrum is take more time on the ball to make a decision when the slide is to the left.. take less time to make a decision when the slider is to the right..

Take the middle of the road amount of time to make a decision

So I included the in game text of this tempo level.. this means make a decision on "what is next really f'ing fast!"

Ok so I know everyone is saying yes that's great we understand that.. the real question you have is what is the IDEAL tempo for a given game! The answer to that question is simple..

"The ideal tempo for a game is when your players release the ball right before they are closed down" - So.. they either pass, shot, dribble RIGHT when the defender closes them down. That is your ideal tempo and it changes every game based on how the OTHER team is playing. If they aren't closing you down.. keep your tempo low (players have more time to make good decisions). When a team is high pressing you.. you need to make quicker decisions hence play with a higher tempo. You figure this out by watching the first 15 minutes of a match on "Full Match" settings. And you watch as the ball is passed around.. are my players getting closed down.. are they releasing the ball prior to getting closed down or holding it (and sometimes losing it when they are under pressure.. i.e. low composure attribute). Move tempo up or down based on what you see in the match.

READ WHAT I JUST POSTED AGAIN.. ONE MORE TIME..

Tempo is about moving the defense to create gaps that you can exploit... but you must have players with the mentals to actual execute at that level. This is why one of the foundations of my approach is playing at the highest tempo possible that allows the MAJORITY of our attacks to end up with a strike on goal.

Risk

Risk = Mentality.. BUT at an individual level! This is the single greatest reason why O-zil (and others) have a problem with FM19+.. they REMOVED the ability to finely control individual mentality. What is individual mentality you ask?

Prior to FM 19 this used to be represented in blocks of 20 "values".. so you could work up to having players operate at similar individual mentalities. This ultimately controls the spacing between players on the field. Have attacking players with high mentality ("Very Attacking" in FM 19+) and players with lower mentality ("Balanced") and this creates a GAP between them positioned on the field. So if I have an IF on the right side with a Very Attacking mentality and a fullback on the right side with a Balanced mentality there will be a HUGE space between these players on the field (the IF could be by the corner flag and the FB is sitting at midfield.. it can be that drastic). This is why you will see a lot of old school guys use the mentality calculators created here: https://theresonlyoneball.com/2020/05/22/an-individual-player-mentality-calculator-for-football-manager-2020/

The reason is that to really create a "fluid" Total Football system you need to make sure that there isn't a large gap between the individual mentalities of the players.. so I want my IF and my FB to BOTH be at the "Attacking" mentality.. this will keep them closely positioned on the pitch and available to support each other. It also prevents spaces and gaps from opening in your team shape defensively that a team can exploit during transitions (we win the ball.. we lose the ball).

So let's bring this home with a very tangible example.. My system employs IF-S on the right and left side with WB-S on either side as well. If I just go with a stock mentality of Positive and those roles and duties this is the individual mentalities of my wide positions:

Very Attacking for the IFs and Positive for the Fullbacks. This will create a situation where it's very unlikely that the fullbacks will overlap our IFs all that often and if they do it will only be when we have consolidated possession in the opponents half. So how can we change this behavior? We add the overlap instruction.. what this does is REDUCES the individual mentality of the IF and RAISES the individual mentality of our FB. So to give you the example I will go with ONLY overlapping on the right side.. this gives us the following individual mentalities:

Now my AMR and DR are both at attacking mentality and the chance of an overlap happening and essential the space between these two players will be more compact and how they are positioned in our shape.. where we will see more of a gap on the left side (seriously TRY this in game and watch on full highlights and you will see the gap difference on the right and left sides of your formation).

So why does this matter? It matters for spacing of your shape.. so what your attacking AND defending/transition shape will look like and more importantly.. Mentality = RISK TAKING. The higher the individual mentality the more risk that player will take.. meaning the more chance they will try a risky pass or the way I think about it.. a risky DECISION. Could be a dribble, shot, or pass. Back to my comment about really bad long shots in lower leagues on higher mentalities and the need for the PI and sometimes PPM of reducing long shots. The challenge is balancing this across your tactic AND at the individual level. I saw a great post about the BPD in FM 21.. that player will naturally take more risks when playing passes.. but a No Nonsense CB will regularly clear the ball long.. why? It's not as risky as trying to thread a ball into the midfielder who is dropping deep and marked. Risk vs. Reward.. but at the INDIVIDUAL level. This is also where player attributes play a HUGE role.. you have to have really good mentals AND technicals to play a Very Fluid Overload system at higher tempos because it forces the players to make really risky decisions QUICKLY. So the moral of the story is to play at the highest tempo with the most amount of risk in key positions that the attributes of your players can support.. easy right?

I've seen lots of people messing with the new overlaps, and I seem to be doing one thing different which is based on this example of individual mentality. When I'm doing an overlap, I will focus play down one side, say the right, and then overlap that SAME side. That way, the overload side has more players tighter together, combining play, before the switch occurs to the opposite flanks attacking mid who, on VA mentality will exploit the space and attack it.

Now, @crusadertsar to his credit, he's trying to get the opposite flank's wingback to attack the space, so makes sense to overlap the opposite flank, but I think you can argue then you need to overlap both.

crusadertsar · December 3, 2020

13 minutes ago, 04texag said:

I've seen lots of people messing with the new overlaps, and I seem to be doing one thing different which is based on this example of individual mentality. When I'm doing an overlap, I will focus play down one side, say the right, and then overlap that SAME side. That way, the overload side has more players tighter together, combining play, before the switch occurs to the opposite flanks attacking mid who, on VA mentality will exploit the space and attack it.

Now, @crusadertsar to his credit, he's trying to get the opposite flank's wingback to attack the space, so makes sense to overlap the opposite flank, but I think you can argue then you need to overlap both.

Yup. In my system im overlapping the exploiting flank. And never the overloaded one. I'm playing on low mentality and need that extra boost in individual mentality to make my CWB more adventurous. On the overloades side i tend to play more safely with the individual mentalities EXCEPT my playmakers or players with switch side trait. I try to give them positive mentality when possible. They become the tactic's sparkplug players.

Edited December 3, 2020 by crusadertsar

crusadertsar · December 3, 2020

Actually my next update will be focusing on just this, the interplay of team and individual mentalities. How it can be used to "channel" the ball where you want.

Edited December 3, 2020 by crusadertsar

robterrace · December 3, 2020

12 minutes ago, 04texag said:

I've seen lots of people messing with the new overlaps, and I seem to be doing one thing different which is based on this example of individual mentality. When I'm doing an overlap, I will focus play down one side, say the right, and then overlap that SAME side. That way, the overload side has more players tighter together, combining play, before the switch occurs to the opposite flanks attacking mid who, on VA mentality will exploit the space and attack it.

Now, @crusadertsar to his credit, he's trying to get the opposite flank's wingback to attack the space, so makes sense to overlap the opposite flank, but I think you can argue then you need to overlap both.

I've done some work with overlaps (as well as a bit on the total football side of stuff)..

Thats when this happens./

Mr__Freak · December 3, 2020

8 minutes ago, robterrace said:

I've done some work with overlaps (as well as a bit on the total football side of stuff)..

Thats when this happens./

Not often i see Chesterfield on this forum and i've been a lurker for 15 years. with various accounts.

Really enjoying this thread by the way, @Kharza_FM i've learned a lot from you, even as a (very seasoned) veteran of the game

Edited December 3, 2020 by Mr__Freak

PequenoGenio · December 3, 2020

Let see if i understand and aplly this to my tactic

- tempo in standart an then change it accordingly what happend on the field.

- It's better for the balance of the team, players on the flanks be in the same "mentality strata", so in my case overlap left to reduce the gap and balance the risk taking

(that explanation about mentalities ..wow. never see it that way)

Edited December 3, 2020 by PequenoGenio

Kharza_FM · December 4, 2020

37 minutes ago, PequenoGenio said:

Let see if i understand and aplly this to my tactic

- tempo in standart an then change it accordingly what happend on the field.

- It's better for the balance of the team, players on the flanks be in the same "mentality strata", so in my case overlap left to reduce the gap and balance the risk taking

(that explanation about mentalities ..wow. never see it that way)

So you seem to be grasping the idea but let's go one more step to see if we can really raise the bar.. So you mention players on the flanks having a similar mentality and that makes sense.. but it also applies to the midfield and defense as well..

So I totally removed the wide positions and we are just going to focus on the center of the pitch now..

So Positive mentality without any TIs.. gives me this nice little Cautious diamond with my SK-D, CD-D, CD,D, CM-D all on Cautious.. meaning they will keep this diamond spacing on the field and it's a great shape for building out of the back. ST is on support as well so I look at this and see two diamonds..

ST

CM CM

CM(D)

CD(D) CD(D)

SK(D)

I look at this and the intersection of these 2 diamonds is the CM(D) who I've chosen to play as DLP-D. I like to think of him as the connection between the defense playing out and the attack trying to score goals. Now the challenge these mentalities pose are twofold. One is that there is a decent gap between the CM(D) and CM(S) in which it could be possible they advance further up the field and leave the CM(D) behind.. BUT the real problem here is the individual mentality of the CM(D) PLAYING the DLP-D role. The problem with having a playmaker on lower mentalities is that they end up passing the ball sideways and backwards and don't look to spray riskier passes to help unlock defenses. So how do we solve this problem?

In the case of playing on a positive mentality.. we add the Focus the Play "through the middle"..

and boom we now raise the individual mentality of our GK, CBs, and CMs (now because of the changes in FM19+ we only see a change in the CM(D) position.. but behind the scenes the CMR and CML both received a small mentality bump as well). One way to solve the problem.. but there is another..

Simply changing our mentality to Attacking also has the same affect.. raising the individual mentality. BUT the difference is that behind the scenes this raised the mentality of our striker (even though you can't "see" it in the tactics creator) and changed the mentality and risk profiles of our wide players. In my case I only wanted to raise the individual mentalities of the CMs and lower in my shape so I went Positive with Focus play through the middle TI.

So putting this all together we want to focus on the distribution of mentalities across ALL of our players (notice I included my GK in this assessment as well).

I see the above as potential diamond shapes..

Edited December 4, 2020 by Kharza_FM

PequenoGenio · December 4, 2020

That last image is an high risk tactic, right?... (in the TC the balanced mentality is only visible on the STC)

And this could work?

Notes:

due to the right WB being in a higher mentality

Kharza_FM · December 4, 2020

Just now, PequenoGenio said:

That last image is an high risk tactic, right?... (in the TC the balanced mentality is only visible on the STC)

And this could work?

Notes:

due to the right WB being in a higher mentality

Yep that is a nice looking team shape and distribution of mentalities. So now all you need to do is make sure you fit the right players into each of the roles you have and you should be in business!

PequenoGenio · December 4, 2020

3 minutos atrás, Kharza_FM disse:

Yep that is a nice looking team shape and distribution of mentalities. So now all you need to do is make sure you fit the right players into each of the roles you have and you should be in business!

I'm Sporting CP (in terms of type of team/players/vision i'm like a poor Chelsea side from Portugal.. ahaha) but don't have the players to go very fluid with overlape on both flack.

In my mind the right side of the team act like a cautions creation side and the left taking more risks.

Edited December 4, 2020 by PequenoGenio

Kharza_FM · December 4, 2020

Just now, PequenoGenio said:

I'm Sporting CP (in terms of players i'm like a poor Chelsea from Portugal.. ahaha) but don't have the players to go very fluid with overlape on both flack.

In my mind the right side of the team act like a cautions creation side and the left taking more risks.

Trust me I know.. I've played like tier 5 of Portugal! So it is where you just balance out risk... so let's take a look at a lower mentality version of the above concept because this really does apply at all levels of the game.

So this was one of my favorite systems when I was playing lower league in Portugal..

So now we need to introduce more attacking roles to our system in order to raise individual mentalities since our overall team mentality has now dropped to Cautious. We can use Overlap to control the mentality of our Wingbacks (yes even though there is nobody to really overlap LOL!) and we raise the mentality a bit of our central players. So yes I'm playing 2 CM-S in the center of the park.. but I always use hold position on them to create the double pivot I want but keep their mentality a little higher.. Now I left off the Overlap Right instruction to show the mentality difference but in practice and a real system I would overlap left and right to get my wingbacks on a Positive mentality. Creates a nice 3-2-5 shape in attack. So the lower your team mentality is the more you need to incorporate individual attacking roles to boost the mentality of those positions. Those are also the roles that you want your better players (i.e. higher mentals and technicals).

PequenoGenio · December 4, 2020

21 minutos atrás, Kharza_FM disse:

So now we need to introduce more attacking roles to our system in order to raise individual mentalities since our overall team mentality has now dropped to Cautious. We can use Overlap to control the mentality of our Wingbacks (yes even though there is nobody to really overlap LOL!) and we raise the mentality a bit of our central players. So yes I'm playing 2 CM-S in the center of the park.. but I always use hold position on them to create the double pivot I want but keep their mentality a little higher.. Now I left off the Overlap Right instruction to show the mentality difference but in practice and a real system I would overlap left and right to get my wingbacks on a Positive mentality. Creates a nice 3-2-5 shape in attack. So the lower your team mentality is the more you need to incorporate individual attacking roles to boost the mentality of those positions. Those are also the roles that you want your better players (i.e. higher mentals and technicals).

If i'm not mistaken an if my english is good this goes against what they said today (low team mentality needs more attacking roles to our system in order to raise individual mentalities)

@Kharza_FM do have any place were i can see that save that you talk about (Lusitânia and Castel Di Sangro)

Edited December 4, 2020 by PequenoGenio

Kharza_FM · December 4, 2020

4 minutes ago, PequenoGenio said:

do have any place were i can see that save that you talk about (Lusitânia and the other that i don't rebember the team)

Unfortunately no.. as you can see by my post count I was never all that active on these forums outside of lurking a ton. Most of the records of those saves are on Discord servers.. the most memorable save I had was taking Castel di Sangro from the very bottom Italian leagues to Seria A and eventually winning the Champions league. Longest I've ever stuck with a save and was a ton of work. I found some old screenshots of that save though..

I remember this particular year because I was on pace to complete my first undefeated season and ended up with the 1 lose due to giving up a goal on a corner kick because I never changed out the default corner defending routines even though I knew it was an issue.. I've never ever left the default set pieces in since then :brock:

This was our primary system and focused a ton on pressing traps and countering. I literally pulled a Bielsa and man marked almost over the entire field and left their right CB free to play a pass.. as soon as he passed it we would press, win the ball, and counter quickly.

This save was also very important for me understanding what attributes really do on the pitch. When you are in lower leagues you really have to find gems like this player to work into your squad:

Dribbling, Finishing, Composure, Decisions, Off the Ball, Acceleration <-- look familiar?

This particular gem of a footballer was when I learned how to CREATE a dribbler in the game.. this guy would absolutely destroy defenses and either score himself or cause so much havoc he would find a teammate who would tap it into the back of the net. The 65 in his name was his potential ability! He lasted 8 years with the squad before we had to part ways because he just couldn't compete at the levels we had. Most of the time he didn't even play as a striker.. he played outside on the right and would come inside and play a lot of 1-2s with the attacking fullback. I really encourage everyone to give lower league football a go because it really does help you grasp tactics and more importantly player selection. See his 1 in Bravery? Yeah that is why he didn't play striker (even though that was what I recruited him for in the first place).. the reason was he would literally RUN AWAY from a 50/50 ball and let the other team have it. He was much better outside on the wing.

04texag · December 4, 2020

2 minutes ago, Kharza_FM said:

This was our primary system and focused a ton on pressing traps and countering. I literally pulled a Bielsa and man marked almost over the entire field and left their right CB free to play a pass.. as soon as he passed it we would press, win the ball, and counter quickly.

I've always wanted to try this but haven't had courage yet.

PequenoGenio · December 4, 2020

4 minutos atrás, Kharza_FM disse:

Unfortunately no.. as you can see by my post count I was never all that active on these forums outside of lurking a ton. Most of the records of those saves are on Discord servers.. the most memorable save I had was taking Castel di Sangro from the very bottom Italian leagues to Seria A and eventually winning the Champions league. Longest I've ever stuck with a save and was a ton of work. I found some old screenshots of that save though..

I remember this particular year because I was on pace to complete my first undefeated season and ended up with the 1 lose due to giving up a goal on a corner kick because I never changed out the default corner defending routines even though I knew it was an issue.. I've never ever left the default set pieces in since then

This was our primary system and focused a ton on pressing traps and countering. I literally pulled a Bielsa and man marked almost over the entire field and left their right CB free to play a pass.. as soon as he passed it we would press, win the ball, and counter quickly.

This save was also very important for me understanding what attributes really do on the pitch. When you are in lower leagues you really have to find gems like this player to work into your squad:

Dribbling, Finishing, Composure, Decisions, Off the Ball, Acceleration <-- look familiar?

This particular gem of a footballer was when I learned how to CREATE a dribbler in the game.. this guy would absolutely destroy defenses and either score himself or cause so much havoc he would find a teammate who would tap it into the back of the net. The 65 in his name was his potential ability! He lasted 8 years with the squad before we had to part ways because he just couldn't compete at the levels we had. Most of the time he didn't even play as a striker.. he played outside on the right and would come inside and play a lot of 1-2s with the attacking fullback. I really encourage everyone to give lower league football a go because it really does help you grasp tactics and more importantly player selection. See his 1 in Bravery? Yeah that is why he didn't play striker (even though that was what I recruited him for in the first place).. the reason was he would literally RUN AWAY from a 50/50 ball and let the other team have it. He was much better outside on the wing.

It's to bad you are just lurking.. hehe

As a portuguese i would enjoy give that Lourosa save a read... Love that kind of saves. Pick a lower league clube and develop them. I do that with NAC Breda last year and i hop that soon enough (as soon as the regens/newgens bug thing are 100% solved) start a new one in Serie C in Italy.

Kharza_FM · December 4, 2020

1 minute ago, 04texag said:

I've always wanted to try this but haven't had courage yet.

@04texag Just for you..

So every player except the backline got individual player marking instructions. We left the DCR position free to have them focus distributing the ball to him. But as you can see as soon as he received it we put him under pressure and forced him to essentially kick it long.. well we would either intercept it or win the header and counter attack when they were out of position. You know how we don't see players truly press correctly? By this I mean curving their pressing runs to take away the passing lane? Well the above system totally solved that problem because since they were tightly marking the player who was the DCRs option and as soon as he got the ball everyone pressed.. the pressing motion naturally put the player they were marking in their cover shadow and did exactly what you want from your pressers.

Maybe one game I'll see if I can't recreate that system..

andre62 · December 4, 2020

@PequenoGenio your tactic is very good

PequenoGenio · December 4, 2020

4 minutos atrás, Kharza_FM disse:

@04texag Just for you..

So every player except the backline got individual player marking instructions. We left the DCR position free to have them focus distributing the ball to him. But as you can see as soon as he received it we put him under pressure and forced him to essentially kick it long.. well we would either intercept it or win the header and counter attack when they were out of position. You know how we don't see players truly press correctly? By this I mean curving their pressing runs to take away the passing lane? Well the above system totally solved that problem because since they were tightly marking the player who was the DCRs option and as soon as he got the ball everyone pressed.. the pressing motion naturally put the player they were marking in their cover shadow and did exactly what you want from your pressers.

Maybe one game I'll see if I can't recreate that system..

Talking about OI's and also about training.

What is your approach to both?

PequenoGenio · December 4, 2020

14 hours ago, andre62 said:

@PequenoGenio your tactic is very good

Now that i'm looking ate her it seems so unbalaced.. But glad to hear that you have success.. Maybe this one is better lets see. hehe

Kharza_FM · December 4, 2020

1 minute ago, PequenoGenio said:

Talking about OI's and also about training.

What is your approach to both?

I generally do not us OI's outside of that above example when it was core to my tactical plan. I will use OIs to close down certain players and I've found myself actually implementing many of the OI suggestions that my assistant coach recommends prior to the start of the match in FM 21. The problem with OI's is that they can change the behavior of your system.. sometimes for the good.. sometimes for the bad so you need to make sure you know exactly what the instruction will do to your team shape.. especially on the defensive side. Closing down instructions and tightly marking can create space and gaps in your defensive lines that aren't the best.

Training is simple for me.. the training schedules I use directly tie to my club DNA. I do train the U18s differently than the senior squad though and right now I have my U18s focused more on physical attribute development with a small dose of mentals while the senior squad is focused more on mentals with a bit of physical attributes like work rate, stamina, acceleration.

Senior Squad

U18 Squad

During heavy fixture congestion and busy times I will go with a lighter version of the schedule as well to reduce injuries.. but I usually tweak individual training to reduce training load as opposed to doing it at the team level.. but here is my "light" training schedule:

PequenoGenio · December 4, 2020

Thanks @Kharza_FM for this session... I learn more with this that wiht many other reading that i've done

retrodude09 · December 4, 2020

27 minutes ago, Kharza_FM said:

I generally do not us OI's outside of that above example when it was core to my tactical plan. I will use OIs to close down certain players and I've found myself actually implementing many of the OI suggestions that my assistant coach recommends prior to the start of the match in FM 21. The problem with OI's is that they can change the behavior of your system.. sometimes for the good.. sometimes for the bad so you need to make sure you know exactly what the instruction will do to your team shape.. especially on the defensive side. Closing down instructions and tightly marking can create space and gaps in your defensive lines that aren't the best.

Training is simple for me.. the training schedules I use directly tie to my club DNA. I do train the U18s differently than the senior squad though and right now I have my U18s focused more on physical attribute development with a small dose of mentals while the senior squad is focused more on mentals with a bit of physical attributes like work rate, stamina, acceleration.

Senior Squad

U18 Squad

During heavy fixture congestion and busy times I will go with a lighter version of the schedule as well to reduce injuries.. but I usually tweak individual training to reduce training load as opposed to doing it at the team level.. but here is my "light" training schedule:

What does your schedule look like for those weeks when your first team has more than 1 game?

Kharza_FM · December 4, 2020

4 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

What does your schedule look like for those weeks when your first team has more than 1 game?

You mean for months that look like this:

I mean seriously? We are playing 9 games in the month of December.. my training schedule looks like this LOL.. I couldn't find the training option to pray for no injuries.. so I figured triple recovery sessions was the best I could do:

Being serious though I'd mix in some set piece sessions.. so attacking/defending corners, set piece deliveries.. stuff that gives you next match boosts.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Kharza_FM

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