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Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 433 to Guardiola's Overloads) - Update coming Nov 30, 2020


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1 hour ago, yonko said:

Ok I'm interested to know more details and reasons why. What was the overall setup? Is the emulated Gaperini tactic a possession tactic? I haven't followed any threads about his tactical style so I'm not familiar.  

I only used this tactic twice....have to train one of my DMs or use Ginter for example as the Libero. Similar idea to what @crusadertsar did in his 3-4-3 TF tactic with his Libero. Like I said I'm not one to ever use Hold Shape...though you can see in this 3-4-1-2 where it's necessary esp if playing in Italy or say in Germany if you would like to that 3412/3421 Nagelsmann did at Hoffenheim.  Maybe for a Mentality standpoint, I'd favor Attacking since it's supposed to emulate Gasperini's Atalanta...or just ramp up the tempo.

TM (Duvan role) & Treq (Ilicic role)  stay wider. TM allowed to roam.  The AP role is Papu playing as the #10.  2 BBMs. WBs on Attack. If I committed to make this work, prob make one of the CM a DLP...

Screen Shot 2020-07-26 at 3.46.43 PM.png

Edited by Vico Vito Pep
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@crusadertsar, I'm sure it was one of your threads where you went into detail about the dna aspect of Total Football, but I can't locate it now to check the for the answer, so I will ask here.

When you decide on attributes such as 'teamwork, work rate and flair', did you relax your minimum stats when looking at your keeper? 

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21 hours ago, Vico Vito Pep said:

I only used this tactic twice....have to train one of my DMs or use Ginter for example as the Libero. Similar idea to what @crusadertsar did in his 3-4-3 TF tactic with his Libero. Like I said I'm not one to ever use Hold Shape...though you can see in this 3-4-1-2 where it's necessary esp if playing in Italy or say in Germany if you would like to that 3412/3421 Nagelsmann did at Hoffenheim.  Maybe for a Mentality standpoint, I'd favor Attacking since it's supposed to emulate Gasperini's Atalanta...or just ramp up the tempo.

TM (Duvan role) & Treq (Ilicic role)  stay wider. TM allowed to roam.  The AP role is Papu playing as the #10.  2 BBMs. WBs on Attack. If I committed to make this work, prob make one of the CM a DLP...

Screen Shot 2020-07-26 at 3.46.43 PM.png

I have no experience with this formation so I can't comment then on the effects of Hold Shape. And I don't think a Gasperini replication requires such instruction as I'm not sure it's a possession tactic per se. 

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2 hours ago, EnigMattic1 said:

@crusadertsar, I'm sure it was one of your threads where you went into detail about the dna aspect of Total Football, but I can't locate it now to check the for the answer, so I will ask here.

When you decide on attributes such as 'teamwork, work rate and flair', did you relax your minimum stats when looking at your keeper? 

My perfect Keeper is unquestionably a Sweeper Keeper. So basically one who is more comfortable playing outside of the penalty area than in it. So basically all the highlighted attributes for that role. But also with additional focus on kicking, passing and decision making as well as jumping reach.  The usual Total Football attributes are not as important. My current top keeper, Geronimo Rulli, has Flair of 1. 

Edited by crusadertsar
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5 hours ago, yonko said:

I have no experience with this formation so I can't comment then on the effects of Hold Shape. And I don't think a Gasperini replication requires such instruction as I'm not sure it's a possession tactic per se. 

Not really a possession tactic yet Atalanta were top 5 Possession team in Serie A the past 3 seasons...I had a better effort emulating their tactic in FM17 & 18. FWIW..

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1 hour ago, Vico Vito Pep said:

Not really a possession tactic yet Atalanta were top 5 Possession team in Serie A the past 3 seasons...I had a better effort emulating their tactic in FM17 & 18. FWIW..

Sorry @crusadertsar, out of topic. 

 

@Vico Vito Pep, wouldnt a CF(s) better suit the Zapata role? Im trying to emulate Gasperini tactic right now as well. 

Im using 2 DW(s) instead of WB, feel that DW press more than WB. 

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2 hours ago, skyline72 said:

@Vico Vito Pep, wouldnt a CF(s) better suit the Zapata role? Im trying to emulate Gasperini tactic right now as well. 

Im using 2 DW(s) instead of WB, feel that DW press more than WB. 

Really quick:

CF/s might be the ticket with Duvan or even DLF/s bc of how often he roams to the flanks & is connected to both Gosens or one of Gomez & a Freuler/Pasalic in their diamond rotational overloads

Robin Gosens has been compared to Marcos Alonso circa 2016/17 so DW can be a good shout. 

For Hans Hateboer: I've used  a CWB/s similar to an old Chelsea Conte tactic @Rashidi used to emulate Moses that winning season & it worked really well with Andrea Conti in FM17. Though I think WB/s would be better

Attached my old FM17 tactical screenshot for kicks....kinda want to something like that or Conte's Chelsea again for FM20...

Screen Shot 2020-07-27 at 10.50.39 PM.png

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I find that using DW(s) works well as well as a WB. It requires as little as 4-5 key attributes( i think) & you don't even need some to operate at max (I've used Mbappe in this role, & he scored as well as assited 20+). The kick back is that it is essentially a "ball winning role", so getting carded, especially giving that very few players can pull off the role (bar, total fullbacks i.e Tierny, Gaya, Grimaldo & Alex Sandro).

Another thing to bear is that the Libero, on support, behaves a lot like a "BPD-co". Difference is the amount of creativity & occasion burst upfront(brings ball out of defense). I find that using a more static role (CM-de) helps offer him protection. I used a BWM-su, initially, too(DeMMe of RBL). Offensively, we were amazing, but when teams counter, phewww. 

The advanced playmaker in narrow formations also works, but there's a tendency to meet regular "blocks" in 2 DM's. I tilt him to the L or R and offer him the "run wide with ball option". He operates as a pseudo-winger when faced with tougher middle situations.

it's an overall interesting tactic, the 3412.

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18 hours ago, Vico Vito Pep said:

Not really a possession tactic yet Atalanta were top 5 Possession team in Serie A the past 3 seasons...I had a better effort emulating their tactic in FM17 & 18. FWIW..

I'm constantly looking to make subtle tweaks to my tactic like removing Hold Shape, but I generally stick to 4141 DM Wide formation (as FM calls it - 433 DM Wide to me) and occasionally experiment with 4231 Wide formation. Also, sometimes I move the FBs to WB strata  when facing defensive shapes or just use the 4231 variation. 

When Hold Shape is removed, I notice my FBs/WBs get forward more quickly into advanced positions. So far I haven't noticed any effects on lower possession numbers though. Actually in my 4231 tactic I often see 65-70% possession achieved. 

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16 hours ago, Vico Vito Pep said:

Really quick:

CF/s might be the ticket with Duvan or even DLF/s bc of how often he roams to the flanks & is connected to both Gosens or one of Gomez & a Freuler/Pasalic in their diamond rotational overloads

Robin Gosens has been compared to Marcos Alonso circa 2016/17 so DW can be a good shout. 

For Hans Hateboer: I've used  a CWB/s similar to an old Chelsea Conte tactic @Rashidi used to emulate Moses that winning season & it worked really well with Andrea Conti in FM17. Though I think WB/s would be better

Attached my old FM17 tactical screenshot for kicks....kinda want to something like that or Conte's Chelsea again for FM20...

Screen Shot 2020-07-27 at 10.50.39 PM.png

Im more or less settled with CF/s on Zapata and Trequartista on Illicic.

Couldnt get the Gomez role right though. 

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On 28/07/2020 at 15:32, skyline72 said:

Im more or less settled with CF/s on Zapata and Trequartista on Illicic.

Couldnt get the Gomez role right though. 

Papu's role now in 3-4-1-2 is  AP/s bc he often drops deep from his advanced position to areas btwn midfield & defense

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5 hours ago, Vico Vito Pep said:

Papu's role now in 3-4-1-2 is  AP/s bc he often drops deep from his advanced position to areas btwn midfield & defense

I set him to AM(s) with lots of PIs, he does drop deep to receive the ball though.

Im not sure if setting it to AP(s) will affect the flow as I will have 2 ball magnets in AP(s) and Trequartista up top. 

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  • 1 month later...

First of all, have to say @crusadertsar - what a thread! Clearly so much effort has gone into it and it is incredibly interesting and well put together so thanks! And thank you to all who have contributed, not often you sit down and just read through a 15 page thread in one go! 

I have been trying to implement an overload system with Arsenal similar to those discussed in the earlier part of the thread but I don't seem to be creating the overloads that other people have reported with their tactics so looking for some help. My tactic is below:

1226224657_Screenshot2020-09-08at08_45_43.thumb.png.0f4a7ab83aaa3fdbedfdf8fa97cff0da.png

 

This is the theory behind the tactic so it would be great if anyone could point out any glaring errors/obvious things to change! With this particular tactic the aim is to overload on the right flank to free up Aubamayang on the left. To this end we have the IF(A) aggressively pushing forward, the M(S) drifting wide to the right, the IWB(S) pushing forward into that area also and the F9(S) moving into channels. The BPD(D) on the right should also help focus play on this side. The DLP(D) acts as the pivot and can switch the play, Xhaka has switch the ball to opposite flank PPM which should help. On the left the CM(A) should get forward and distract the remaining defenders allowing the IF(S) to take advantage of the space. The WB(S) also helps in a distracting role or can be played in on the overlap. 

Team Instructions: I chose positive as I felt it was the best balance of risk and reward, particularly with the fullbacks getting forward at the right moments. Shorter passing, play out of defence and lower tempo are all attempts at keeping possession and drawing the defence out of position. Passing into space to exploit the new found space on the left, wider play just to stretch the opposition even more and focus down the right is fairly obvious. 

In transition, all I have chosen is counter. The idea is to catch the opposition defence out when we win the ball and I wanted to keep things fairly simple outside that. I don't want to close down too much as I want the structure of the team to remain fairly standard so we are in position to exploit the spaces. In defence I just lowered the line of engagement, again to create more space in the attacking third. 

Player Instructions: super simple - the players on the right (F9, IF, M, IWB) have close down more to add a bit of pressure on the opposition while those on the left (IF, CM, WB) have close down less to make sure they are in position to spring the trap.

I feel in theory this all makes sense but it just doesn't seem to translate into the ME. The opposition just completely ignore my overload, don't commit any extra numbers and the players they have on their left just deal with it. Although we have scored goals, the vast majority are from set plays or long shots from my central midfielders and while winning games is all well and good I want to play in a particular way and score goals in style. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

 

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Wow I am glad that you enjoyed the thread so much. It's really gotten long over the years. Here you answered your own question.

2 hours ago, Wesley6 said:

 

I feel in theory this all makes sense but it just doesn't seem to translate into the ME. The opposition just completely ignore my overload, don't commit any extra numbers and the players they have on their left just deal with it. Although we have scored goals, the vast majority are from set plays or long shots from my central midfielders and while winning games is all well and good I want to play in a particular way and score goals in style. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

 

Overloads used to work much better but overtime after a few patches they became nearly impossible to achieve with any degree of consistency. And the opposition instruction gymnastics involved make it into an exercise in frustration. Also let me guess, you are probably facing a lot of very defensive sides who are just happy to stay back and it's very difficult to make them come out to react to your overload.

In theory I know how overloads should work. But there's a major difference in how the game engine works. I have been trying to find a consistent solution to this but it is just not fun any more. Like @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I have since moved to FM18 and I am act seeing some nice overloads there.

Edited by crusadertsar
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6 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Wow I am glad that you enjoyed the thread so much. It's really gotten long over the years. Here you answered your own question.

Overloads used to work much better but overtime after a few patches they became nearly impossible to achieve with any degree of consistency. And the opposition instruction gymnastics involved make it into an exercise in frustration. Also let me guess, you are probably facing a lot of very defensive sides who are just happy to stay back and it's very difficult to make then come out to react to your overload.

In theory I know how overloads should work. But there's a major difference in how the game engine works. I have been trying to find a consistent solution to this but it is just not fun any more. Like @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I have since moved to FM18 and I am act seeing some nice overloads there.

Thanks for your reply. Hmm well it seems like I am barking up the wrong tree then really, I shall have to reconsider my approach. Yes, I have come up against many defensive sides, the worst being a narrow 3421 formation with 3 centre backs, defensive wingbacks and two CMDs. As you say they don't react to the overload and my players on the overload side seem to just run into a cul-de-sac. 

A pity this doesn't seem to be a fruitful tactic anymore, having not played an FM between 14 and 20 it seems like I missed out on what seems like the peak years of 17/18! 

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But don't get me wrong. It's not the fault of the current match engine. It's great at what it does. If anything the game has gotten very good at stopping the human player from exercising their game plan. Maybe overly too good. The challenge is really great now if you are into that kind of thing. And you won't win very beautifully. But isn't that modern football, narrow wins and lots of set pieces?

Edited by crusadertsar
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Il 28/7/2020 in 13:56 , denen123 ha scritto:

I find that using DW(s) works well as well as a WB. It requires as little as 4-5 key attributes( i think) & you don't even need some to operate at max (I've used Mbappe in this role, & he scored as well as assited 20+). The kick back is that it is essentially a "ball winning role", so getting carded, especially giving that very few players can pull off the role (bar, total fullbacks i.e Tierny, Gaya, Grimaldo & Alex Sandro).

Another thing to bear is that the Libero, on support, behaves a lot like a "BPD-co". Difference is the amount of creativity & occasion burst upfront(brings ball out of defense). I find that using a more static role (CM-de) helps offer him protection. I used a BWM-su, initially, too(DeMMe of RBL). Offensively, we were amazing, but when teams counter, phewww. 

The advanced playmaker in narrow formations also works, but there's a tendency to meet regular "blocks" in 2 DM's. I tilt him to the L or R and offer him the "run wide with ball option". He operates as a pseudo-winger when faced with tougher middle situations.

I've setup this shape:

                TM(s) Tq

                         AP(s)

DW (s) CM(d) CM(s)

                                      WB(a)

     CD(d) Libero(s) CD(d)

SK(s)

 

As you notice, the AP is on the right slot. What I'm not sure of is the midfield shape: the CM on defensive duty should be on the left or right slot? Any suggestion?

Thanks!

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4 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

But don't get me wrong. It's not the fault of the current match engine. It's great at what it does. If anything the game has gotten very good at stopping the human player from exercising their game plan. Maybe overly too good. The challenge is really great now if you are into that kind of thing. And you won't win very beautifully. But isn't that modern football, narrow wins and lots of set pieces?

Its just that we got little margin or error. A bit a bit thread got closed or whatever. 

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6 hours ago, sejo said:

I've setup this shape:

                TM(s) Tq

                         AP(s)

DW (s) CM(d) CM(s)

                                      WB(a)

     CD(d) Libero(s) CD(d)

SK(s)

 

As you notice, the AP is on the right slot. What I'm not sure of is the midfield shape: the CM on defensive duty should be on the left or right slot? Any suggestion?

Thanks!

1. I did not include that this tactic was extremely successful for me in FM19(so it was much more an FM19 designed tactic). Particularly, because the CB's split very wide during transitions. I've not seen the same split, at least, not to that extent in FM20.

2. If you need successful shape variants of it that works well with the present ME, check out bustthenet "implications of ME" videos.

3. I like your shape because you're willing to take risks, so:

Keep the TI's simple.

You can switch CM(s) & CM(d).

CD's as  BPD with dribble more & shorter passing PI's(CD's are way too static & that "pass with themselves" ish is an issue).

 

Lastly, tweak. Tweak. & tweak till you have enough balance of roles instructions. It feels more like your own tactic, that way.

 

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12 ore fa, denen123 ha scritto:

CD's as  BPD with dribble more & shorter passing PI's(CD's are way too static & that "pass with themselves" ish is an issue).

Would you suggest also "stay wider"? And what about PI for the 2 CM?

Thank you mate!

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19 minutes ago, sejo said:

Would you suggest also "stay wider"? And what about PI for the 2 CM?

Thank you mate!

The two CM's? Nothing. 

Stay wider?  Try it and see. 

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  • 2 months later...

Working on the FM21 Update to my Overloads tactic to release on Monday :D

Really loving the new and improved Focus Play team instruction. I feel like the ME got much improved to accommodate more the sort of plays we were trying to create in FM20 with so much difficulty. Makes me very happy. So I am looking forward to sharing my experiments with you guys again in the coming weeks.

Anyone else has given Guardiola-style Possession tactics a try in FM21? 

Edited by crusadertsar
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  • crusadertsar changed the title to Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 433 to Guardiola's Overloads) - Update coming Nov 30, 2020
25 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Guardiola-style Possession tactics a try in FM21

My whole thread is pretty much dedicated to similar approaches, as I work to figure out good representations of positional play, especially now that Pep has Juanma Lillo and more of a 4231 shape.

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7 minutes ago, 04texag said:

My whole thread is pretty much dedicated to similar approaches, as I work to figure out good representations of positional play, especially now that Pep has Juanma Lillo and more of a 4231 shape.

Yeah I saw mate! You are doing great work there. I'm excited to see what you come up with. Incidentally, I switched to 4-2-3-1 for FM21 Overloads too. Unlike your project, I am not really going for a pure Pep recreation per se. Just took some inspiration from him as always. And find that 4-2-3-1 now works really well for Total Football-style tactics. 

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26 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Yeah I saw mate! You are doing great work there. I'm excited to see what you come up with. Incidentally, I switched to 4-2-3-1 for FM21 Overloads too. Unlike your project, I am not really going for a pure Pep recreation per se. Just took some inspiration from him as always. And find that 4-2-3-1 now works really well for Total Football-style tactics. 

Thanks! I intend soon to do some work on a 433, as this has always been my go to. Last year's FM was so stale for possession tactics that I got turned off of the game for a few months before going back for a final pre fm21 save. I'll likely do a lower league save with a simple 433 that develops as the team gets promoted. 

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15 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Thanks! I intend soon to do some work on a 433, as this has always been my go to. Last year's FM was so stale for possession tactics that I got turned off of the game for a few months before going back for a final pre fm21 save. I'll likely do a lower league save with a simple 433 that develops as the team gets promoted. 

Awesome! 4-3-3 will always be my fave formation so looking forward to that. Hopefully it will be something I would be able to use in my Notts County save :brock:

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2 hours ago, 04texag said:

Thanks! I intend soon to do some work on a 433, as this has always been my go to. Last year's FM was so stale for possession tactics that I got turned off of the game for a few months before going back for a final pre fm21 save. I'll likely do a lower league save with a simple 433 that develops as the team gets promoted. 

 

2 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Awesome! 4-3-3 will always be my fave formation so looking forward to that. Hopefully it will be something I would be able to use in my Notts County save :brock:

This is exactly what I have going on at the moment. I’m currently attempting a total (football) rebuild of Palermo, implementing a Guardiola inspired 4-3-3 which will hopefully become more fluid and free-scoring as we move up the leagues. 
 

It’s working really well so far, happy to share some updates here if you guys are interested!
 

I’m quite new to the forum, or at least to being active, and I must say I’ve taken a lot of inspiration from the two of you and your Overloads/Juego De Posicion threads. It’s a style I’ve always tried to take inspiration from so I’m pleased this ME has made it easier to achieve. 

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