Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023

[Powello]

Just now, skyline72 said:

My profile is showing that I preferring defensive soccer. 

So? that doesn't matter lol

[skyline72]

3 minutes ago, Powello said:

So? that doesn't matter lol

It doesn't make sense.

We are all using about the same TI, same role, etc.

But the difference is so huge.

[crusadertsar]

42 minutes ago, Powello said:

Never seen any team have that many passes against me on any save

I think you can create a thread about this on bugs forum and upload your pmk there. It might be a bug.

[skyline72]

4 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I think you can create a thread about this on bugs forum and upload your pmk there. It might be a bug.

Weird thing is, I used other tactics that I used to form my team doesn't have this issue.

It works perfectly.

[crusadertsar]

@skyline72 It's seems like a very save specific issue. Could be related to league you play in. But then Portugal is even more prone to parked buses. I'm at work right now so can't upload more screens. But I had a game yesterday where I had something like 65% possession and scored 5 goals. Could be that your libero is not doing what he is supposed to. Why don't you try playing him as DLP on Defend in DM strata? See if that makes the passing better.

Edited May 15, 2020 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

49 minutes ago, Powello said:

So? that doesn't matter lol

Yeah I never pay much attention to what game thinks of my style as long as we are winning.

[skyline72]

3 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

@skyline72 It's seems like a very save specific issue. Could be related to league you play in. But then Portugal is even more prone to parked buses. I'm at work right now so can't upload more screens. But I had a game yesterday where I had something like 65% possession and scored 5 goals. Could be that your libero is not doing what he is supposed to. Why don't you try playing him as DLP on Defend? See if that makes the passing better.

Hmm, Im using Man Utd, almost certainly face parked bus against smaller teams.

My Libero usually has the highest key passes in my team.

[OJ]

Guys I don’t think it’s a bug or anything save-specific.

Skyline, I face the same issue a lot of the time now with Arsenal, and it’s always the case of extremely defensive tactics, but then a lot of managers who like to control posession so they park the bus but also play out of defense, and since they’re so defensive they just pass it around with my front guys trying to press.

watch on full match and I think you’ll notice the same.

So it’s not a bug, but the issue is with the match engine where it’s way too easy for even very average teams with cb’s etc not that great on the ball, however they’re still magically able to play around the back under extreme press as they’re all prime-barca under Pep.

In real life, as you see with City esp in Pep’s first year, and under Emery at Arsenal, is that the teams would get murdered. And we’re talking about top teams with still top players.

In my game even Stoke, sitting on 14th place can come to the Emirates and grab 60% posession unless I go super-agressive on them.

Check my post on last page, it was exactly about countering this kinda of stuff, and something SI really need to fix with the match engine, it’s not realistic at all.

 

[skyline72]

22 minutes ago, OJ said:

Guys I don’t think it’s a bug or anything save-specific.

Skyline, I face the same issue a lot of the time now with Arsenal, and it’s always the case of extremely defensive tactics, but then a lot of managers who like to control posession so they park the bus but also play out of defense, and since they’re so defensive they just pass it around with my front guys trying to press.

watch on full match and I think you’ll notice the same.

So it’s not a bug, but the issue is with the match engine where it’s way too easy for even very average teams with cb’s etc not that great on the ball, however they’re still magically able to play around the back under extreme press as they’re all prime-barca under Pep.

In real life, as you see with City esp in Pep’s first year, and under Emery at Arsenal, is that the teams would get murdered. And we’re talking about top teams with still top players.

In my game even Stoke, sitting on 14th place can come to the Emirates and grab 60% posession unless I go super-agressive on them.

Check my post on last page, it was exactly about countering this kinda of stuff, and something SI really need to fix with the match engine, it’s not realistic at all.

 

The thing is, I tried other tactics(attacking, possessive) but never see any ridiculous amount of possession, opponent passes like this.

[crusadertsar]

26 minutes ago, OJ said:

Guys I don’t think it’s a bug or anything save-specific.

Skyline, I face the same issue a lot of the time now with Arsenal, and it’s always the case of extremely defensive tactics, but then a lot of managers who like to control posession so they park the bus but also play out of defense, and since they’re so defensive they just pass it around with my front guys trying to press.

watch on full match and I think you’ll notice the same.

So it’s not a bug, but the issue is with the match engine where it’s way too easy for even very average teams with cb’s etc not that great on the ball, however they’re still magically able to play around the back under extreme press as they’re all prime-barca under Pep.

In real life, as you see with City esp in Pep’s first year, and under Emery at Arsenal, is that the teams would get murdered. And we’re talking about top teams with still top players.

In my game even Stoke, sitting on 14th place can come to the Emirates and grab 60% posession unless I go super-agressive on them.

Check my post on last page, it was exactly about countering this kinda of stuff, and something SI really need to fix with the match engine, it’s not realistic at all.

 

Yup @ferrarinseb discovered this same issue awhile ago too. I think it's definitely ME related but I don't want to start pointing fingers as SI already mentioned that they won't be updating their match engine until FM21. I guess we just have to sit back and wait and enjoy our current saves as much as we can. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by crusadertsar

[skyline72]

12 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Yup @ferrarinseb discovered this same issue awhile ago too. I think it's definitely ME related but I don't want to start pointing fingers as SI already mentioned that they won't be updating their match engine until FM21. I guess we just have to sit back and wait and enjoy our current saves as much as we can. 

Well, nothing we can do now then.

[Vico Vito Pep]

On 13/05/2020 at 10:00, crusadertsar said:

The main difference in the 2nd formation was in the roles. I changed them to reflect their actual defensive positioning and not their "future" attacking positioning. Again, I cannot stress how important careful role selection is in Football Manager. Whereas pre-FM2014 the game was all about sliders, it is now ALL about the roles. Your attacking formation's movement is completely dictated by your players' roles, their duties, personal traits and attributes. So to create a successful tactic you must look at your tactic screen (as it shows the defensive formation) and try to predict how the players will move and position themselves during attack. This is dependent on the combination of all of the above factors. And even then what we see on the virtual pitch might not completely mirror what you visualized in your mind. That is the beauty of the game.

So I found this pretty interesting....this is the tactical direction Quique Setien has been going since taking over at Barca: BTP does a great outline of this in a recent article compiling  the buildup strategies of the 7 best teams in Europe. https://betweentheposts.net/what-possession-shapes-do-europes-top-teams-use/ 

Definitely think you were on to something in your tactic evolution is @crusadertsar 

 

 

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, Vico Vito Pep said:

So I found this pretty interesting....this is the tactical direction Quique Setien has been going since taking over at Barca: BTP does a great outline of this in a recent article compiling  the buildup strategies of the 7 best teams in Europe. https://betweentheposts.net/what-possession-shapes-do-europes-top-teams-use/ 

Definitely think you were on to something in your tactic evolution is @crusadertsar 

 

 

Thank you for suggesting this wonderful article. Its given me more ideas to work off. 

[skyline72]

Is it true that the players who played longer together, the tactic will work better?

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, skyline72 said:

Is it true that the players who played longer together, the tactic will work better?

Yup. When you develop those nice green lines of chemistry should help. Like on my left wing have really nice interplay between Grimaldo and Rafa.

[skyline72]

9 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Yup. When you develop those nice green lines of chemistry should help. Like on my left wing have really nice interplay between Grimaldo and Rafa.

Ahhh.

I am whacking everyone now.

 

 

Is it possible for the Wingers and the SS to have the lines?

Edited May 17, 2020 by skyline72

[crusadertsar]

30 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

Ahhh.

I am whacking everyone now.

 

 

Is it possible for the Wingers and the SS to have the lines?

No unfortunately not between wingers and SS

[Hovis Dexter]

I’m probably not looking carefully enough but can somebody point me to the post(s) that explain the logic of having IWBs overlapping Wingers and WBs underlapping IFs

[Djuicer]

6 hours ago, Hovis Dexter said:

I’m probably not looking carefully enough but can somebody point me to the post(s) that explain the logic of having IWBs overlapping Wingers and WBs underlapping IFs

The same reason for why many of use like regular wingers whom cuts inside, it creates variation. Mixes the best from two worlds.

The underlap for WB and overlap for IWB. Why they do it on the "wrong" attacking players I do not know. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Djuicer

[Hovis Dexter]

33 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

The same reason for why many of use like regular wingers whom cuts inside, it creates variation. Mixes the best from two worlds.

The underlap for WB and overlap for IWB. Why they do it on the "wrong" attacking players I do not know. 

That what I was really asking. Why do they do it for the "wrong" players?

[takeballpassball]

I can't for the life of me get a possession based tactic to work. I see lots of the ball but it isn't penetrative. And then I get hit on the counter... 

I find it easier to win (at least initially) playing a high pressing, more direct game where my teams don't see as much as the ball as I'd like. Strangely, I'll often find that I'll win games by 3-4 goals but the opposition will have more possession than me. Why is this? 

But anyway, I don't like that style and don't want to play that way. I prefer the more controlled possession game. But so far it hasn't worked out. Maybe it's because I've been away from fm for years, who knows.  

I'm going to have to clear some time, sit down and read this thread thoroughly in an attempt to build a tactic I want and have my team play the way I want. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Experienced Defender
inappropriate word

[skyline72]

Interesting video. 

[OJ]

18 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

Interesting video. 

Very! Haven't seen this before. Cruijff and Neeskens switching positions makes me wanna try something crazy like try my F9 switching with my BBM in midfield and see what happens

[skyline72]

Modern version of 343.

 

[Mutumba]

On 15/05/2020 at 12:27, Powello said:

So I have been running some tests. For these tests Iwas using a legends database and a team I created on it. I went on holiday for the season just instructing the assistant to use the tactic no set team selection.

 

If anyone wants to give it a try let me know and I will post it up, although as I said there's barely any PIs so it's easy to quickly copy.

I'm going to keep working on it and see if I can get the passing up

I'd like to know the PIs please, and also if theres any more TI than the picture shows. Looks great!

[Powello]

8 hours ago, OJ said:

Very! Haven't seen this before. Cruijff and Neeskens switching positions makes me wanna try something crazy like try my F9 switching with my BBM in midfield and see what happens

ALready have many players switching like that in mine, works great

[skyline72]

2 hours ago, Powello said:

ALready have many players switching like that in mine, works great

Hows your tweaking coming?

[Powello]

Just now, skyline72 said:

Hows your tweaking coming?

Not had a chance to play properly in over a week. 

[Powello]

2 hours ago, Mutumba said:

I'd like to know the PIs please, and also if theres any more TI than the picture shows. Looks great!

When I get a chance to get on I'll post them up.

I was messing about in a friendly testing a new version last night and won 12-0 but friendlies mean nothing so will be a while before I know if it's any good

[crusadertsar]

For those interested here is a little preview of my next Total Football Journeyman Article I just started writing. As I mentioned to some on here, maybe it is good time to go back to Old Trafford 

 

 

In a series about Total Football, you might wonder why I am writing about Sir Ferguson's Manchester United? While Ferguson's Man United achieved amazing success between 2006-2009, they were not known for playing Possession-style, associated with Total Football. Or for that matter one cannot really pin point a specific style of play or formation to the legendary team. However, one constant that contributed to Ferguson's success was his masterful management of his players. Sir Alex Ferguson was a people manager like no other, who perfected the concept of player rotation. He instinctively knew how to match personalities and individual playing styles and get the most out of his players. So what can we learn from him in FM20?

 

Unlike other historic sides, Manchester United did not use one specific formation between 2006-2009. Instead Sir Alex used a variety of formations, from 4-3-3 to 4-4-2, and too many others to recount. His overall strategy fluctuated markedly depending on whether it was a home or away match, domestic or European. Yet they always played beautiful fluid football with a lot of attacking intent and flair, not seen in Europe since Ajax and Dutch National sides of 1970s. So in that sense, Fergie's Manchester United of early 2000s was a Total Football team through and through.

One must keep in mind that Total Football, is not only about tactics and styles. On a bigger scale, it is a philosophy and a way of viewing football as more than just a game. In this sense, we cannot look at players as simply numbers or interchangeable cogs in a machine. Much of both Sir Ferguson's and Johan Cruyff's success can be attributed to how they treated their players. Both managers viewed their players as unique individuals with specific playing styles. And they were able to bring these individuals together for greater effect by matching them like jigsaw puzzle pieces.

There is a common misconception that neither Cruyff nor Ferguson were great tacticians. That their success was really only due to teams stacked with world-class talent. It is true that Cruyff had his Total Football Dream Team. And Ferguson was fortunatw to manage some of the best players of the generation like Ronaldo, Rooney, Giggs, and Carrick. But this view does not take the importance of personnel management into account. And both Cruyff and Ferguson were magicians at this. Or otherwise, wouldn't PSG win 10 Champion Leagues by now?

Breaking Records

In the short time-span of 3 years, Fergie's United won a grand total of 10 domestic and continental trophies. That included 3 Domestic Titles, 3 Cups and 2 Shields. On the World Stage they had 1 UEFA Champions League and 1 Fifa Cup World Cup.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Djuicer]

Exited to see what you will do with the Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo roles! Also the midfield.. darn I will try this (again).

[skyline72]

43 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Exited to see what you will do with the Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo roles! Also the midfield.. darn I will try this (again).

I did before on FM16 iirc.

I did a asynmetric 442/433

 

                     DLF(S)

IF(A)                                 AM(A)

 

                        CM(D)        DLP(S)        WM(S)

                       

WB(A)             CD(S)           CD(C)          FB(S)

                                   Gk

 

Champions League with Hargreaves

Edited May 19, 2020 by skyline72

[crusadertsar]

59 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Exited to see what you will do with the Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo roles! Also the midfield.. darn I will try this (again).

Those three roles are exactly what got me excited about this 

[Djuicer]

11 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Those three roles are exactly what got me excited about this 

On top of my head it looked something like this. 

Spoiler

 

F9-DLFs

Tevez-Rooney

WMs/DFW-APs-CMd/BWM-IWa/Wa or moved up a notch as IFa/IWa/Wa

Park/Giggs-Scholes-Carrick/Hargreaves-Ronaldo

WBa-CDd-BPDd-FBs

Evra-Vidic-Ferdinand-Brown
SKs/d.

van der Sar

 

A bit adjusted for the ME and Ronaldo on the right, the position he still played most at that time. Although he played to the left too (ie the CL final for example)

Edited May 19, 2020 by Djuicer

[crusadertsar]

I'm going for a looser interpretation. Trying to capture the fact that United played Strikerless without a real frontman. The front three's movement and position swapping captured my imagination. There was more than a hint of Total Football about how Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo played.

Also it was more about the players available to Ferguson. It's hard to recapture with any team at start of FM20. But a few years into my save I have a likely candidate. The weirdness that happens in FM sometimes when save goes on for a few years.

Edited May 19, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Powello]

7 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

I'm going for a looser interpretation. Trying to capture the fact that United played Strikerless without a real frontman. The front three's movement and position swapping captured my imagination. There was more than a hint of Total Football about how Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo played.

Also it was more about the players available to Ferguson. It's hard to recapture with any team at start of FM20. But a few years into my save I have a likely candidate. The weirdness that happens in FM sometimes when save goes on for a few years.

I have been working on recreating the style of United during those times, one of the many real life tactical recreations I have been working on, and with this legends database I have that front 3  to play with

This is a video worth watching 

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Powello

[skyline72]

https://timhi.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/ajax-1995/

[Powello]

11 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

I'm going for a looser interpretation. Trying to capture the fact that United played Strikerless without a real frontman. The front three's movement and position swapping captured my imagination. There was more than a hint of Total Football about how Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo played.

Also it was more about the players available to Ferguson. It's hard to recapture with any team at start of FM20. But a few years into my save I have a likely candidate. The weirdness that happens in FM sometimes when save goes on for a few years.

This is what I am working with at the moment, but it's still a work in progress. Front 3 are set to roam and Rooney to swap with Tevez

Edited May 20, 2020 by Powello

[skyline72]

After tweaking here and there, I went back to 3331. 

Scored this beauty.

 

[Manutd1999]

I think there are a few key things to remember when trying to recreate United 07-09:

- The team that played in the 2008 champions league final was NOT representative of the way United typically played. It was a team put together for that specific game
- The starting 11 and formation was rotated almost constantly, making it hard to define a particular version to try and re-create
- The tactics changed markedly depending on the opposition. At home in premier league, the team usually dominated possession and always looked to attack. Away in Europe, the team was actually quite defensive, mainly playing on the counter 

There wasn't really a "first-choice" 11 or even a consistent formation, but this is probably the closest you can get?

As for the roles and duties, maybe something like this? Trying to get the front 3 to roam freely and swap positions like Rooney/Ronaldo/Tevez did so frequently could be very difficult to re-create.

                      DLF-S          PF-A

                                                               IF-A

WM-S                              RPM-S

                               DM-S

CWB-S         CD-X           CD-C            FB-S

                               GK-D

 

One other aspect of that United team which would be fun to try is Ji-Sung Park's role in big games. Essentially have a 'free' player who's only job is to tightly mark and press the oppositions key man. to do this though you would have to sacrifice one of the front-3 from the formation above (for United it was was often Tevez, with Rooney moving to wide left and Giggs/Anderson/Hargreaves playing more centrally)

 

[takeballpassball]

On 19/03/2020 at 20:11, crusadertsar said:

It's a good base to work with. Although you might need to cut down some of the TIs as you watch more matches. You are aiming for possession style I can see. But sometimes you have to be careful not to overdo it or you will get possession for the sake of possession with little threat in final third. For example when you instruct your players to play short passes it already makes the team naturally narrow. So when you add to that "very narrow" instruction it narrows your formation needlessly. Playing very narrow will make it harder to open up space in opposition defence and overload their flanks.

I think this is something I struggle with. Understanding and knowing what else changes when you alter certain settings and instructions. 

[Powello]

@crusadertsar You should watch this video if you haven't already, interesting total football style, although not totally haha

 

[Experienced Defender]

@Tcufrog Sorry, but I had to remove your post. If you want an opinion or advice on your own tactic, you'll have to start your own separate thread. That's a rule.

Of course, if you want to hear an opinion from @crusadertsar and @Djuicer specifically, you can tag them in that new thread.

[crusadertsar]

5 hours ago, Powello said:

@crusadertsar You should watch this video if you haven't already, interesting total football style, although not totally haha

 

Awesome! Thanks friend. Can't wait to check it out tonight after work.

[OJ]

12 hours ago, Powello said:

@crusadertsar You should watch this video if you haven't already, interesting total football style, although not totally haha

 

Nice watch! Yeah, I watched them against my Arsenal this season in the FA Cup, and in the 1st half they were truly excellent, completely playing Arsenal off the park. It was pissing me off, obviously, but also great to watch. 2nd half Arsenal took over and won the match with Arteta throwing water bottles at half time and the player quality difference starting to shine, but assuming and hoping they're in the Prem next year, they're going to  be a ton of fun to watch and will surprise a lot of teams and dominate them.

Btw about the role switching, with which have you had the most success with?

[Powello]

6 hours ago, OJ said:

Nice watch! Yeah, I watched them against my Arsenal this season in the FA Cup, and in the 1st half they were truly excellent, completely playing Arsenal off the park. It was pissing me off, obviously, but also great to watch. 2nd half Arsenal took over and won the match with Arteta throwing water bottles at half time and the player quality difference starting to shine, but assuming and hoping they're in the Prem next year, they're going to  be a ton of fun to watch and will surprise a lot of teams and dominate them.

Btw about the role switching, with which have you had the most success with?

What do you mean with which?

[dom.march]

Le 03/03/2020 à 11:29, chief_lucas a dit :

@crusadertsar this is incredible work. I've taken on your principles of play and created a tactic with my Leeds team and the results are unreal. We're playing some genuinely excellent football.

and would you mind to share it with us please ?

[g-sandhu]

@crusadertsar tried the latest download for a few end of season games, namely Liverpool twice and Lazio in a final. Build up play was great to see and scored some beauties. (even with my Man Utd first season squad).

If you had to do a best 11 of each position what would it be. I hear you mention Zaniolo for SS and I am currently trying to do a deal for him.
Also i hear people mention Savic has the Libero.

Great work.

[Powello]

1 minute ago, g-sandhu said:

@crusadertsar tried the latest download for a few end of season games, namely Liverpool twice and Lazio in a final. Build up play was great to see and scored some beauties. (even with my Man Utd first season squad).

If you had to do a best 11 of each position what would it be. I hear you mention Zaniolo for SS and I am currently trying to do a deal for him.
Also i hear people mention Savic has the Libero.

Great work.

If youre United, Bruno is awesome as the Libero, Pogba does ok but needs time.

[skyline72]

18 minutes ago, Powello said:

If youre United, Bruno is awesome as the Libero, Pogba does ok but needs time.

Im thinking of putting in Regista instead of DLP.