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crusadertsar

Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff, False 9s, 4-3-3, to Guardiola's Overloads) - updated July 6, 2020

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2 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

Did you win the Roses Derby?

Yeah 1-0 Pogba Penalty. They played 3-4-3 with wingbacks and 2 dms with a defensive mentality, 2 shots, 1 on target in 90 minutes for them

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4 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

Yeah I meant cm(s) and bbm together.

Playmaker without the playmaker role :) 

Jus played Leeds in the cup, so put the libero on attack, acts more like a HB really, sits infront of the other 2 cds, doesnt seem to surge forwards to much like I thought. May have to give it a few more games there.

I'm away from my laptop but could you add any pi's to make him go forwards? Didn't look at that before

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3 minutes ago, Powello said:

I'm away from my laptop but could you add any pi's to make him go forwards? Didn't look at that before

For the Libero on attack, no its hardcoded in.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

For the Libero on attack, no its hardcoded in.

What about support to make him more attack minded? If not traits it is, but they will take time unless you find a good attack minded playmaking midfielder with the right traits.

I am considering playing pogba or Bruno there for a couple of games lol

Oh and one of the other tweaks I've done is attacking instead of positive, does make the libero go a bit more adventurous. Technically with a ss and CMS deep it might stop the libero advancing, just a thought

Edited by Powello

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here is a screen shot of libero on attack over 90 mins, no 5 is the libero.

Little bit concerned how close the wingers are to my WB's though.

 

20200511181307_1.thumb.jpg.2dbbd40debd712ce31551a5e4479b995.jpg

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10 minutes ago, Powello said:

What about support to make him more attack minded? If not traits it is, but they will take time unless you find a good attack minded playmaking midfielder with the right traits.

I am considering playing pogba or Bruno there for a couple of games lol

Oh and one of the other tweaks I've done is attacking instead of positive, does make the libero go a bit more adventurous. Technically with a ss and CMS deep it might stop the libero advancing, just a thought

I thought about it too, but they do still need to defend and for me there both just not upto the defensive part. The screen shot of mine has a DLF(a) instead of SS as well

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Posted (edited)

This is one of those things that you have to test out for yourself to see if it works. I just used a 5-2-1-2 WB formation with libero and saw him do very little. The game finished in a 2-2 draw, with my MEZ(s) and CWB(s) assisting on the goals (one was a corner). The passing breakdown was:

  • Two CD(d) players had 53 and 61 pass attempts - 95% each
  • BBM(s) had 53 pass attempts - 77%
  • MEZ(s) had 38 pass attempts - 78%
  • AM(a) had 11 pass attempts - 72%
  • Two strikers had 21 and 15 pass attempts - 80%
  • Two wingbacks had 51 and 46 pass attempts - 80%
  • GK(d) had 42 pass attempts - 95%
  • L(a) had 27 pass attempts - 85%

Positionally, he was in the right spots, but what was my libero doing all game? The central defenders alongside him were far more active on the ball. Even the goalkeeper had more passes.

Defensively, my two central defenders had 4 tackles each, while my libero had none. The libero did attempt two headers, though he lost one of them.

I'd love to see others show their success stories with a libero because I want it to work.

Edited by Overmars

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4 minutes ago, Overmars said:

This is one of those things that you have to test out for yourself to see if it works. I just used a 5-2-1-2 WB formation with libero and saw him do very little. The game finished in a 2-2 draw, with my MEZ(s) and CWB(s) assisting on the goals (one was a corner). The passing breakdown was:

  • Two CD(d) players had 53 and 61 passes completed - 95% each
  • BBM(s) had 53 passes completed - 77%
  • MEZ(s) had 38 passes completed - 78%
  • AM(a) had 11 passes completed - 72%
  • Two strikers had 21 and 15 passes completed - 80%
  • Two wingbacks had 51 and 46 passes completed - 80%
  • GK(d) had 42 passes completed - 95%
  • L(a) had 27 passes completed - 85%

Positionally, he was in the right spots, but what was my libero doing all game? The central defenders alongside him were far more active on the ball. Even the goalkeeper had more passes.

Defensively, my two central defenders had 4 tackles each, while my libero had none. The libero did attempt two headers, though he lost one of them.

I'd love to see others show their success stories with a libero because I want it to work.

I'm back at my laptop soon, I'll see the stats on mine and post them up

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11 minutes ago, Overmars said:

This is one of those things that you have to test out for yourself to see if it works. I just used a 5-2-1-2 WB formation with libero and saw him do very little. The game finished in a 2-2 draw, with my MEZ(s) and CWB(s) assisting on the goals (one was a corner). The passing breakdown was:

  • Two CD(d) players had 53 and 61 pass attempts - 95% each
  • BBM(s) had 53 pass attempts - 77%
  • MEZ(s) had 38 pass attempts - 78%
  • AM(a) had 11 pass attempts - 72%
  • Two strikers had 21 and 15 pass attempts - 80%
  • Two wingbacks had 51 and 46 pass attempts - 80%
  • GK(d) had 42 pass attempts - 95%
  • L(a) had 27 pass attempts - 85%

Positionally, he was in the right spots, but what was my libero doing all game? The central defenders alongside him were far more active on the ball. Even the goalkeeper had more passes.

Defensively, my two central defenders had 4 tackles each, while my libero had none. The libero did attempt two headers, though he lost one of them.

I'd love to see others show their success stories with a libero because I want it to work.

I've just checked my analysis of my 3-0 win against Arsenal, pretty much the same.

Passes Completed.

2 Defs -35 and 38 

Libero - 22

Tackles.

2 defs - 2 and 1

Libero - 0

However, it seems with his advanced positioning he doesn't need to tackle:

Headers.

 2 Defs - 4 and 1

Libero - 6

Interceptions.

2 Defs - 1 and 1

Libero - 4.

 So maybe we need to think about how he operates, maybe we could play more of a playmaker there.

All these were taken with the Libero on support. I'll keep him on attack for a couple of games and see how he gets on. The leeds game wouldn't be a fair comparison as were totally different standards and I played youths in defence.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Really loving how this discussion is turning out.

A lot of great advice and general good food for thought here. Thanks everyone for your input :applause:. This is why I love this forum so much :hammer:

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)

So I just played Pogba there and all that changed was he played more passes, he has the trait get into the opposition area and he still didn't advance much... plus I changed to cms instead of the APS... hmm I thought that trait might have changed something but no, only one game though so not much of a test lol

Edited by Powello

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1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

Yeah actually I saw someone on Reddit claim that they had an amazing tactic with Savic as libero. 

 

If you can get past the foul language :lol: it's actually a pretty good read. And gives us more hope that that great success can be had with libero role. The role is really an unsung hero in FM20. 

I read that a while ago. Can you lure Savic to La Real? :D

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31 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

I read that a while ago. Can you lure Savic to La Real? :D

I wish, I don't think i have the money bargaining power to get him. Don't think 15 mil will lure him from Lazio

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I asked the Man Utd board to help me buy him in summer, he wasn't a realistic target so turned me down :lol: 

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2 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

I asked the Man Utd board to help me buy him in summer, he wasn't a realistic target so turned me down :lol: 

I always feel asking the board to buy a player for you is like kid asking something for Christmas :lol: when it works it's such a good feeling. Especially when player is way over your budget.

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3 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I always feel asking the board to buy a player for you is like kid asking something for Christmas :lol: when it works it's such a good feeling. Especially when player is way over your budget.

On an old save I got them to buy me sancho :D

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3 minutes ago, Powello said:

On an old save I got them to buy me sancho :D

Yeah the got me Sancho this year as Id bought Tonali and a bunch of youngsters, might try again in January, otherwise I think liverpool will get him.

 

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Posted (edited)

So I have been tinkering around trying to get the libero role working and tried a few different players. Now just tried Bruno there and heres some interesting stats

bruno-libero.jpg

He bossed it, putting in a MOM performance, getting up and having a few shots aswell, something to go on anyway

Not sure why the quality of that screenshot is so poor

Edited by Powello

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Powello said:

So I have been tinkering around trying to get the libero role working and tried a few different players. Now just tried Bruno there and heres some interesting stats

bruno-libero.jpg

He bossed it, putting in a MOM performance, getting up and having a few shots aswell, something to go on anyway

Great stuff! It really pays off to play a traditional playmaker there.

Edited by crusadertsar

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1 minute ago, Powello said:

So I have been tinkering around trying to get the libero role working and tried a few different players. Now just tried Bruno there and heres some interesting stats

bruno-libero.jpg

He bossed it, putting in a MOM performance, getting up and having a few shots aswell, something to go on anyway

Not sure why the quality of that screenshot is so poor

Are we sure those weren't from set pieces?

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Just now, crusadertsar said:

It really pays off to play a traditional playmaker there.

it does.

I have been watching some videos about the libero role, seeing others tactics using one, saw that one you were on about with SMS owning it. So I incorparated some of what I saw on theirs into this one. But they were using different formations, although I did find one on fmscout that is the same formation as the one you did just had a striker not an AMC

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Overmars said:

Are we sure those weren't from set pieces?

Yes I watched the match

and next game I won't have himon any set pieces just to make sure :D 

I am thinking about signing Camavinga for this role, just needs a little development and he will be perfect

Edited by Powello

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You guys can look at Dominik Szoboszlai.

Got him for about 30m at the start of the game.

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2 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

You guys can look at Dominik Szoboszlai.

Got him for about 30m at the start of the game.

Already scouted and on my shortlist :D 

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5 minutes ago, Powello said:

Yes I watched the match

What formation and instructions? Curious as to how it played so differently.

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2 minutes ago, Overmars said:

What formation and instructions? Curious as to how it played so differently.

3-4-3, I'm just in amatch, I'll post it up after

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I just played a youngster there, only Player trait was bring the ball out of defence, didn't see much difference. I did notice that he pretty much ran upto the CM then stopped. Also I wonder if having BPD'S next to him, takes away the emphasis of giving it to him. Going to try 2 normal CBs next match.

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On another note, my striker still isn't really performing, i took out the SS in case he was preventing forward movement and replaced it with a dlf(a) but still not getting much from them. wingers are more of a threat, he actually heads out wide a little to much for my liking, hes in there to tie up defenders, be a focal point and create space for the wingers........

 

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Part of what seems to be inhibiting my libero's involvement is the opposition striker. When testing against a 4-2-3-1 opponent who presses up the pitch, the opposition striker is all over the libero while my other two central defenders are left unmarked.

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Posted (edited)

This is the current setup but it's still a wip, few things to iron out

current-setup.jpg

And here you can see pogba playing there, not as good as Bruno's but he still did well

pogba-libero.jpg

Got Liverpool next so that will be a big test

Edited by Powello

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Posted (edited)

I think you need a lot of PPMs for the libero to advance much.

 

bring ball out of defence

runs with ball trough the centre 

get further forward

get into op area

run with ball often

If you have all them, I think it will advance a LOT.

 

and no playmaker roles in the team 

Edited by Djuicer

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24 minutes ago, Powello said:

And here you can see pogba playing there, not as good as Bruno's but he still did well

Bruno is always likely to do better (more consistently) when your team has the ball due to his superior decision making and not having the "dwells on the ball" ppm, the only thing holding Bruno back would be his poor anticipation and lower ability ceiling.  If you could get Pogba's decision making up and unlearn the "dwells on the ball" ppm he'd probably be better.  Possibly also adding the "tries long range passes" or "tries killer balls" to complement his passing ability and vision.

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2 minutes ago, blackdevil said:

Bruno is always likely to do better (more consistently) when your team has the ball due to his superior decision making and not having the "dwells on the ball" ppm, the only thing holding Bruno back would be his poor anticipation and lower ability ceiling.  If you could get Pogba's decision making up and unlearn the "dwells on the ball" ppm he'd probably be better.  Possibly also adding the "tries long range passes" or "tries killer balls" to complement his passing ability and vision.

Yeah pretty much what I am planning

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5 minutes ago, Powello said:

Yeah pretty much what I am planning

Or throw money at it and buy someone like Saul from A. Madrid.  (£86mil release clause)

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2 minutes ago, blackdevil said:

Or throw money at it and buy someone like Saul from A. Madrid.  (£86mil release clause)

Don't have the money at the moment, plus I want to develop Garner to play that role long term

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What PIs do you guys have?

I got few easy games coming up....

Can try and see whats need to be tweaked. 

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Well, I did 2 things this last game.

 

1) Turned the 2 outer defenders into normal CB(d).

2) Changed to an attacking mentality.

Granted, the team we were playing were inferior, but it was still away in the Europa league. My Libero had more passes than all but my 2 Cm's, so he either needs no BPD's to get more passes or he needs an aggressive mentality.

Next match will be back at positive so I will leave the rest, see if we get similar results. 

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Posted (edited)

Screenshot of the passing Analysis of the Europa League game, Libero is a fair way in front of the other 2 CBs

20200511221539_1.thumb.jpg.28c86f501551eb3fefdcbddc7fe46676.jpg

Not liking the average position of the striker still, I'd like him further forward thats for sure.

20200511181307_1.thumb.jpg.6e57ddce48f2f5f9e6e6eb5bbeabcddf.jpg

 

Second is as a comparsion, CB's were BPD in this one, but on positive mentality (first Screenshot is attacking)

 

I'm not well versed in analysis, maybe you guys can make more of this.

Edited by daveb653

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12 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

This is my recent set up in my test save with Benfica. The original faithful recreation of 3-4-3 with wingers, carrileros and three defenders was a disaster. I faced a ton of parked buses in the division and ended drawing most of the matches and got destroyed in Europe. I thought me a lesson. So I decided to go for more unusual recreation. Technically this is 3-4-3 and I see its starting to play some nice Total Football so I think I will stick with it. Also the results improved immensely.

Image

What have you found that it is about the wing back set up that helps to create more chances than the 3-diamond-3? Are you exploiting certain spaces on the pitch more effectively? Is having extra players in wider areas offering up more space for central creative players?

I'm currently trying to recreate the 343 as well and I'm struggling with chance creation from open play. Current set up, based on what I've read from yourself and O-Zil is:

------------------------- SK (S) -----------------------------
---------- BPD (X) --- BPD (C) --- BPD (X) ----------

------ CAR (S) ------ DLP (S) ------ CAR (S) -----------

W (S) ----------------- AM (S) --------------------- W (S)

------------------------- CF (S) -----------------------------

Unsure on roles for the AM and ST. As you've said in previous posts, the Kluivert role is difficult to define in both real life and in game so I'm seeing what a CF throws up. It's not a role I've used too much in the past to be honest. Is this roughly what you went with? I've tried to keep TIs to a minimum to see what the actual shape itself with those player roles produces. At the moment I think I've just got Play out from Defence, shorter passing, exploit the middle and low crosses.

I'm thinking if I can pin point the advantages that other 'total football' set ups have over the 3-diamond-3 in terms of chance creation, I might be able to tweak what I've already got and create some sort of functional system that keeps the shape I'd like to see.   

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, ElJefe4 said:

What have you found that it is about the wing back set up that helps to create more chances than the 3-diamond-3? Are you exploiting certain spaces on the pitch more effectively? Is having extra players in wider areas offering up more space for central creative players?

I'm currently trying to recreate the 343 as well and I'm struggling with chance creation from open play. Current set up, based on what I've read from yourself and O-Zil is:

------------------------- SK (S) -----------------------------
---------- BPD (X) --- BPD (C) --- BPD (X) ----------

------ CAR (S) ------ DLP (S) ------ CAR (S) -----------

W (S) ----------------- AM (S) --------------------- W (S)

------------------------- CF (S) -----------------------------

Unsure on roles for the AM and ST. As you've said in previous posts, the Kluivert role is difficult to define in both real life and in game so I'm seeing what a CF throws up. It's not a role I've used too much in the past to be honest. Is this roughly what you went with? I've tried to keep TIs to a minimum to see what the actual shape itself with those player roles produces. At the moment I think I've just got Play out from Defence, shorter passing, exploit the middle and low crosses.

I'm thinking if I can pin point the advantages that other 'total football' set ups have over the 3-diamond-3 in terms of chance creation, I might be able to tweak what I've already got and create some sort of functional system that keeps the shape I'd like to see.   

Thats almost exactly what I went with, except for only having one BPD in the centre. All the duties were also the same except I had Pressing forward on Attack in middle (again for the elusive Kluivert role that was supposed to pin the opposition defenders back). It looks great on paper until you test in the game. With  the original 3-4-3 Diamond you have to realize that most teams that Cruyff and van Gaal were facing were 4-4-2 and 3-5-2 maybe. Those are easy to boss around once you control the midfield. On the other hand in the game, you will face a lot of parked buses. Because realistically if you are playing Total Football style, you are not an underdog. You probably have very technical world-class players. So you won't be able to create enough movement against side with multiple DMs and packed midfields. They will basically drop everyone back and play with one striker, like with 4-5-1 or 4-1-4-1

So you have to think more along the lines of how do you break the game down. And its still with total attacking overload. The same as it in FM19. With the traditional 3-4-3 you will maybe have 3-4 players pushing into their opposition area all at once. But with the 3-4-3 Wingback version, I have at least 5, and sometimes all 7 with only my libero and centrebacks staying back. That kind of overload is key. It is what most top sides in Premiership like Liverpool and Man City do these days to break down all the parked buses they face there. Not a lot of teams can withstand 5-7 world class players penetrating their defence all at once. How do you mark everyone? You basically create overload on both sides and have players moving into all channels and stretching the wings. Wingbacks on the very outside and then the inside forwards and at least one of the midfielders occupying the channels. The shadow striker too, if he is a hard working one will put pressure on the defenders. It sounds "exploity" but I really don't think so. Its really how Total Football always operated. 

Edited by crusadertsar

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Can anyone tell me how to upload a highlight so I can put it on here? want to show you an example of bruno in th elibero but I can't through the game anyway.

When I go to preferences, social networks and try to log in to google it say the games not verified or something and won't work. Same happens when I try to upload after the matches. And the file is too big to attach here

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13 minutes ago, Powello said:

Can anyone tell me how to upload a highlight so I can put it on here? want to show you an example of bruno in th elibero but I can't through the game anyway.

When I go to preferences, social networks and try to log in to google it say the games not verified or something and won't work. Same happens when I try to upload after the matches. And the file is too big to attach here

You got to download the video, upload to youtube, and paste the link here.

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1 minute ago, skyline72 said:

You got to download the video, upload to youtube, and paste the link here.

yeah that doesn't work either lol, I try and upload the video to my channel and it says im not logged in LOL even though I am

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7 minutes ago, Powello said:

yeah that doesn't work either lol, I try and upload the video to my channel and it says im not logged in LOL even though I am

That's weird.

I can help to upload for you if you can send it to me.

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10 minutes ago, Powello said:

yeah that doesn't work either lol, I try and upload the video to my channel and it says im not logged in LOL even though I am

I had the same issue. Export the goal which sends it to your uploads folder and then upload it from there 

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So no video showing what I wanted but I'll show you his perfomance in one simple screenshot :D 

but first, the game in question was at home v Newcastle, they are 15th us 3rd/2nd, forgot which one lol. So I edited the tactic to make it more attacking and adventurous, not many changes really but here is what it looked like.

neew.jpg

They were set up in a flat 5-4-1 so I knew breaking them down would be tough, I actually made the mistake of not changing the passing or tempo until I realised too late during the game. It ended up being our most attacking game to date having 42 shots, although we struggled to break them down because I forgot to change a few settings.

We only won 1-0, which doesn't sound amazing I know, but playing against a flat 5-4-1 with a low block and only the striker anywhere near the halfway line, they were tough to get through.

I was trying to workout a way through them then up stepped Bruno.

bossing-it.jpg

He did actually take set pieces as even though I took him off them, I forgot to add anyone who was actually playing to take them instead LOL.

BUt as you can see in the screenshot his goal was nothing to do with a set piece.

As I can't show it, I will describe it. AWB had it down the right hand side by the corner of penalty area, cut back and passed t back to mctominay. at this point, bruno was sat just on the edge of the centre circle alone, Scotty turned round and played it back to Bruno, he ran on, skinned one dude and before another could get near him he fired it into the net from just outside the D.

What was nice is he had so much room and no one really closed him down that much. I can see why that person had a great save with SMS as the Libero

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3 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I had the same issue. Export the goal which sends it to your uploads folder and then upload it from there 

tried that still didn't work lol I think it's because I am using my phones hotspot not wifi

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13 minutes ago, Powello said:

yeah that doesn't work either lol, I try and upload the video to my channel and it says im not logged in LOL even though I am

So you click review and share highlight video, then pick the goal you want,then bottom corner there is a down arrow next to "upload package". Hit that to bring up "export package" hit that and it sends it to your uploads folder.

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Just now, Crazy_Ivan said:

So you click review and share highlight video, then pick the goal you want,then bottom corner there is a down arrow next to "upload package". Hit that to bring up "export package" hit that and it sends it to your uploads folder.

Yeah that was the first thing I did, I have the file, just unable to upload it anywhere and @skyline72 thanks but I can't send it to you on here as the file is too big, and yeah I have exported it using the smallest option

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