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crusadertsar

Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff, False 9s, 4-3-3, to Guardiola's Overloads) - updated July 6, 2020

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8 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Fantastic work @crusadertsar :thup:

Thanks mate! Appreciate it. Hopefully we can make it into a trend on the forum, all the discussions about Total Football and Possession :D

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Posted (edited)

Fantastic read and very interested to see how this turns out. Love anything to do with people's take on total and possession football. In my experience at trying to create it FM i have found it to be the most frustrating to really get it working to a constant trophy winning standard. But it's also the most fun style to try and implement and when it does work, it's brilliant.

Edited by smithy20

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Posted (edited)

omg exactly what i have been waiting for im going of to compose myself and the have a good read of this later when the kids are in bed but from first glance this looks special crusadertsar.

Edited by latrell

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That Ajax 3-4-3 Diamond is one of the hardest tactics to get just right on any version of FM. I remember one Tactic Thread from FM16 that looked more like 3-5-1-1 on the Tactics Screen but at times did look like that famous diamond in midfield...But the Carrilero role wasn't created yet.  Cant' wait to see how this looks & how you solve the Kluivert striker role...esp for my Giallorossi 

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Seriously great work that was a fantastic read you should think about going into some kind of written journalism work:thup:  i have been trying and testing for the past week trying out different things to get this style working in fm.

Biggest problem i found was the back 3 i found making the De Boer and Reiziger role as full backs works but im still tinkering with the setting and roles of the full backs. will be interested how you get your back 3 to work though.

  

 

 

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Also i believe the best teams to test it with from the get go just due to the type of players you have are Bayern Roma Ajax Barcelona Juventus.

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Brilliant as ever.....are you using the training schedules you made before for this and am I right in thinking you said you use the same schedules for youth as you do for adults or did I read that wrong?

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, latrell said:

Also i believe the best teams to test it with from the get go just due to the type of players you have are Bayern Roma Ajax Barcelona Juventus.

Also Benfica are not too shabby for this style too :brock: been testing with them and Roma. 

Edited by crusadertsar

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6 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Also Benfica are not too shabby for this style too :brock: been testing with them and Roma. 

i agree a great league and team to get your players confident and winning week in week out. and benfica have a lot of technical players suited to the system. 

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39 minutes ago, latrell said:

Seriously great work that was a fantastic read you should think about going into some kind of written journalism work:thup:  i have been trying and testing for the past week trying out different things to get this style working in fm.

Biggest problem i found was the back 3 i found making the De Boer and Reiziger role as full backs works but im still tinkering with the setting and roles of the full backs. will be interested how you get your back 3 to work though.

  

 

 

Thanks! I would love to write more professionally but it would probably interfere with my day job haha and also wouldn't be able to do what i love, post updates of my saves on here. 

Also that's another hard aspect of recreating this tactic. Deciding how to set-up the back three. Whether to go with 3 CBs with the outside two going wider or as two inverted wingbacks on defend told stay narrow. I went with the former as I wasn't sure whether the inverted wingbacks and single CB would work in current ME. Wasn't sure if I would get ripped apart on counter :lol:. So went with safer options.

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49 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Brilliant as ever.....are you using the training schedules you made before for this and am I right in thinking you said you use the same schedules for youth as you do for adults or did I read that wrong?

Thank you for reading friend. You are right I use my schedule from previous article. And my youth teams train the same with exactly the same tactics. Trying to emulate Ajax approach in everything. Total Football starts from early age. 

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9 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Thanks! I would love to write more professionally but it would probably interfere with my day job haha and also wouldn't be able to do what i love, post updates of my saves on here. 

Also that's another hard aspect of recreating this tactic. Deciding how to set-up the back three. Whether to go with 3 CBs with the outside two going wider or as two inverted wingbacks on defend told stay narrow. I went with the former as I wasn't sure whether the inverted wingbacks and single CB would work in current ME. Wasn't sure if I would get ripped apart on counter :lol:. So went with safer options.

must be some day job you have :) i have been reading a lot about this topic and i put your write up better than anything i have seen about this subject.

I have holidayed and tested with top teams and also with my current save and the results have been really good but no major success in Europe but i think with me actually going through game by game i can see where the system needs tweaking. ill try and upload it soon. 

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5 hours ago, Vico Vito Pep said:

That Ajax 3-4-3 Diamond is one of the hardest tactics to get just right on any version of FM. I remember one Tactic Thread from FM16 that looked more like 3-5-1-1 on the Tactics Screen but at times did look like that famous diamond in midfield...But the Carrilero role wasn't created yet.  Cant' wait to see how this looks & how you solve the Kluivert striker role...esp for my Giallorossi 

Yeah i believe that thread from FM16 was by the @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!. Awesome series and one of the main reasons why I got into recreating Total Football tactics in FM. 

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nice job m8. The 3-4-3 as Cruyff said in this well known video, was used to accomodate a very good center forward like Van Basten. At Barca they had Romario at the top. I stay very close to that idea that switching a 4-3-3 to 3-4-3 is only to accomodate a cf while maintaining the diamond.

The way Guardiola used the 3-4-3 was very interesting and probably not able to recreate in FM, with Pedro going to the striker role, Alves moving at right wing and the defense trio generated by abidal tucking in together with Pique and Puyol.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DimitrisLar said:

nice job m8. The 3-4-3 as Cruyff said in this well known video, was used to accomodate a very good center forward like Van Basten. At Barca they had Romario at the top. I stay very close to that idea that switching a 4-3-3 to 3-4-3 is only to accomodate a cf while maintaining the diamond.

The way Guardiola used the 3-4-3 was very interesting and probably not able to recreate in FM, with Pedro going to the striker role, Alves moving at right wing and the defense trio generated by abidal tucking in together with Pique and Puyol.

 

That's a really interesting insight! Its true I never thought about it. With the old 4-3-3 at Ajax in 70s there was no world-class traditional striker. But then Rinus needed no striker. It worked almost like strikerless formation with Cruyff dropping so deep. So makes me see 3-4-3 in a different light.

Edited by crusadertsar

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4 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

That's a really interesting insight! Its true I never thought about it. With the old 4-3-3 at Ajax in 70s there was no world-class traditional striker. But then Rinus needed no striker. It worked almost like strikerless formation with Cruyff dropping so deep. So makes me see 3-4-3 in a different light.

that's exactly why you can't use players like xavi and iniesta in a 3-4-3, cause to keep the diamond you have to defend with the carrileros (seedorf,davids). Got it m8? while in a 4-3-3 you defend with the wingbacks and this allows the midfield three to be more creative!

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

that's exactly why you can't use players like xavi and iniesta in a 3-4-3, cause to keep the diamond you have to defend with the carrileros (seedorf,davids). Got it m8? while in a 4-3-3 you defend with the wingbacks and this allows the midfield three to be more creative!

Yeah, I'm starting to realize that my carrileros have to be a different breed in 3-4-3 from the type of midfielders I used in my previous 4-3-3. Much more mean and defensively oriented.  But still creative and good passers. If thats even possible. Its pretty rare breed of player but still possible. At Roma I found Diawara and Veretout to fit there well. At Benfica, Alex Grimaldo and Gedson Fernandes are also perfect. I guess kind of like putting a more tough roaming playmaker in carrilero role. But yeah, definately not like Iniesta. He was great playmaker but a bit of a glass cannon who (even in his prime) couldn't chase down and tackle a winger like Seedorf or Davids could.

Actually thats what I love about van Gaal's version. The grit that he put into his midfield. Davids and Seedorf were one of the kind. 

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Yeah, I'm starting to realize that my carrileros have to be a different breed in 3-4-3 from the type of midfielders I used in my previous 4-3-3. Much more mean and defensively oriented.  But still creative and good passers. If thats even possible. Its pretty rare player but doable. At Roma I found Diawara and Veretout to fit there well. At Benfica, Alex Grimaldo and Gedson Fernandes are also perfect. I guess kind of like putting a more tough roaming playmaker in carrilero role. But yeah, definately not like Iniesta. He was great playmaker but a bit of a glass cannon who (even in his prime) couldn't chase down and tackle a winger like Seedorf or Davids could.

yeap, these pairs seem fine for the job! And all of this fuss is for what? The diamond! Mourinho in chelsea didn't use the diamond so he didn't utilise these patterns and had a makelele kind of player always. If you care for the diamond and move away from 4-3-3 its always the defensive state of mind that is gonna define what players are paired in midfield. See at Milan of 2006, the same story. Ancelotti might had two strikers front and not wingers (or one striker and a shadow) but he had to deal with the defensive aspect when picking up the midfield who paired with Pirlo otherwise he might fielded rivaldo and rui costa there too xD

EDIT: just imagine a 4-3-3 at milan with these players

                      Dida

Bonera-Nesta-Maldini-Jankulowski

                    Pirlo

      Rui Costa     Rivaldo

Inzaghi       Kaka       Shevchenko

Guess the player who doesn't fit that well !

Edited by DimitrisLar

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3 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

 

                      Dida

Bonera-Nesta-Maldini-Jankulowski

                    Pirlo

      Rui Costa     Rivaldo

Inzaghi       Kaka       Shevchenko

Guess the player who doesn't fit that well !

Well, jump in time. Remove the average bonera. Welcome Cafu.

Rivaldo as cm is a stretch too I suppose.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Thanks mate! Appreciate it. Hopefully we can make it into a trend on the forum, all the discussions about Total Football and Possession :D

Yeah, that would be nice! :thup:

 

regarding Litmanen he winded down (~35 yo) in Sweden and Malmö. Almost always injuried but simply  one step above the rest when he played. You could see the player he once was, smartness, touch, passing, movement etc. Even if hes legs where long gone.

Insane numbers of odd injuries though, missed months if I remember correctly cause he was hit in the eye  by a cap from the head of a bottle. Reminds me of Canizares and the aftershave bottle. Good for spain and Casillas, worse for Canizares.

Edited by Djuicer

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51 minutes ago, g-sandhu said:

Is there a download to the latest file?

@crusadertsar will have to answer this to be sure. But I think this is not a plug-n-play tactic. I think you must look at what players and qualites your team have and select aspects from this that you want to implement. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, g-sandhu said:

Is there a download to the latest file?

No, there's no download yet. There are still a few aspects of the tactic that I'm trying to figure out by testing with at least one or possibly two clubs. The purpose of this article was to get people thinking criticalally about the kinds of roles that might work in Van Gaal's formation. And as @Djuicer it is not meant to be a plug-in-tactic. You will definitely need very specific player types for it, especially in the midfield.

But don't worry, the moment there is a download I'll let you know 🙂

Edited by crusadertsar

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4 hours ago, Djuicer said:

Well, jump in time. Remove the average bonera. Welcome Cafu.

Rivaldo as cm is a stretch too I suppose.

i thought Cafu had retired by then. I was referring to 37yo Inzaghi on the flanks xD

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

No, there's no download yet. There are still a few aspects of the tactic that I'm trying to figure out by testing with at least one or possibly two clubs. The purpose of this article was to get people thinking criticalally about the kinds of roles that might work in Van Gaal's formation. And as @Djuicer it is not meant to be a plug-in-tactic. You will definitely need very specific player types for it, especially in the midfield.

Yeh thats fine, just that reading back through the pages I read of some people downloading it.
The false 9 is probably my favourite way of playing the 4-3-3, had endless hours of fun using it on past FIFA games, destroying opponents with calm, penetrating possession.

I might start a save with Barcelona to test some of this. Currently halfway throught first season with Man Utd i don't possess the best technical players.
Appreciate the info.

Edited by g-sandhu

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6 minutes ago, g-sandhu said:

Yeh thats fine, just that reading back through the pages I read of some people downloading it.
The false 9 is probably my favourite way of playing the 4-3-3, had endless hours of fun using it on past FIFA games, destroying opponents with calm, penetrating possession.

I might start a save with Barcelona to test some of this. Currently halfway throught first season with Man Utd i don't possess the best technical players.
Appreciate the info.

There is a download for my 4-3-3 tactic however if you go back through the posts. Yeah, Man United are not ideal for this, would need a major reconstruction. I was trying to do that in my Young Devils series but the task proved too monumental so I decided to restart with a team that already has a good core for this style of football. And Barca is probably the best for it.

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@crusadertsar I noticed that you changed from a IWB, MEZ and RPM to a WBs, CMa and CMs using Real Sociedad. What PI do you use for those positions? I've started a save myself using them and implemented your tactic.  Also, even though you have 'shorter passing' set in the team instructions, the player instructions are still set to standard passing. Is that correct?

I somehow managed to sign Rodri on loan from Man City and he is fantastic in the DM role. He literally never gives the ball away and keeps possession brilliantly.

We are playing some very nice football indeed but the match engine is so frustrating and ruining any enjoyment at the moment. The players have numerous chances to play a through ball for example but they just turn around and pass it backwards. Plus, I'm sick of my team missing golden chances and then the cpu scores some wonder volley from 35 yards. It happens far too often but that is another matter...

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4 hours ago, GJF82 said:

@crusadertsar I noticed that you changed from a IWB, MEZ and RPM to a WBs, CMa and CMs using Real Sociedad. What PI do you use for those positions? I've started a save myself using them and implemented your tactic.  Also, even though you have 'shorter passing' set in the team instructions, the player instructions are still set to standard passing. Is that correct?

I somehow managed to sign Rodri on loan from Man City and he is fantastic in the DM role. He literally never gives the ball away and keeps possession brilliantly.

We are playing some very nice football indeed but the match engine is so frustrating and ruining any enjoyment at the moment. The players have numerous chances to play a through ball for example but they just turn around and pass it backwards. Plus, I'm sick of my team missing golden chances and then the cpu scores some wonder volley from 35 yards. It happens far too often but that is another matter...

Yeah I was trying a more early 2000s Pep Barca approach. You could get a download on the previous page I think. I can't remember all the PIs off the top of head but I think the important ones where for CM(a) to dribble more and go forward as a type of Iniesta/ Needle Player.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

i thought Cafu had retired by then. I was referring to 37yo Inzaghi on the flanks xD

You might be correct about Cafu :).

 

Inzaghi would not have ever been a success there. In the dictonary under poacher there is a picture of Pippo.

Edited by Djuicer

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Just scored this 2 goals against Liverpool. 

 

 

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@skyline72 Awesome goals, how did you get that shape and passing combinations, some excellent one touch football at times

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

@skyline72 Awesome goals, how did you get that shape and passing combinations, some excellent one touch football at times

You definitely need players who are intelligent, have the technique to do so.

manutd.jpg

 

The roles and shape is what I got it from @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! from his fantastic 343 Diamond thread.

After that, I watched the Ajax video from the same thread and tinker with the TIs.

Edited by skyline72

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3 hours ago, skyline72 said:

You definitely need players who are intelligent, have the technique to do so.

manutd.jpg

 

The roles and shape is what I got it from @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! from his fantastic 343 Diamond thread.

After that, I watched the Ajax video from the same thread and tinker with the TIs.

That's a great thread 👍 the best resource for anyone trying to recreate 3-4-3 Diamond.

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2 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

That's a great thread 👍 the best resource for anyone trying to recreate 3-4-3 Diamond.

Definitely.

I wasn't planning to buy FM20 but I chanced upon this thread and @Djuicer's world domination thread as I was bored during this stay home period.

After that, I couldn't control my fingers with the fact that it was on sale(30%?).....

It was few years ago since I last played FM, so I came back to this forum and refresh my memory. Reading thread after thread, pages and pages of wonderful insight of veterans here.

From setting up scouting network from this legendary guide to develop youngster by the late @SFraser (anyone who wants to play a long save should take a look at this) to @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s fantastic 343 Diamond and the Heroes of the future: Ajax attack style video within that thread.

I feel that this is the way to play football........

Attack is the best of defense...... Sorry Mourinho and Greece 2004. :herman:

 

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Posted (edited)

@skyline72 With all due respect to the Greeks but them beating Czech Republic in 2004 was a travesty and worst kind of anti-football I've ever had the displeasure of watching live. This is especially sad considering how beautifully that Czech Dream team played during that whole tournament :(

Edited by crusadertsar

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Just now, crusadertsar said:

@skyline72 With all due respect to the Greeks in 2004 but them beating Czech Republic in 2004 was a travesty and worst kind of anti-football I've ever had the displeasure of watching live. This is especially sad considering how beautifully that Czech Dream team played during that whole tournament :(

Yea.....

That heart break moment.....

Just like how Lucas Moura scored THAT goal which knocked out Ajax in the Champions League.... At least Spurs played football. :onmehead:

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9 hours ago, skyline72 said:

You definitely need players who are intelligent, have the technique to do so.

manutd.jpg

 

The roles and shape is what I got it from @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! from his fantastic 343 Diamond thread.

After that, I watched the Ajax video from the same thread and tinker with the TIs.

Excellent thread, that formation looks interesting, but do you not find you get hammered down the flanks? or does the combination of carrilero and the wingers do enough to cover?

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4 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

Excellent thread, that formation looks interesting, but do you not find you get hammered down the flanks? or does the combination of carrilero and the wingers do enough to cover?

I had both Carrilero the mark the AMR/AML positions of the opponent.

And put your fastest CB and the LCB and RCB. :lol:

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5 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

I had both Carrilero the mark the AMR/AML positions of the opponent.

And put your fastest CB and the LCB and RCB. :lol:

Makes sense, I guess. Looks like it plays some sweet football. How were you're results overall?

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4 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

Makes sense, I guess. Looks like it plays some sweet football. How were you're results overall?

Steamrolling through.

Though sometimes, my team decide to not score and have that odd loss..... Well, it happens right? :rolleyes:

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3 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

Steamrolling through.

Though sometimes, my team decide to not score and have that odd loss..... Well, it happens right? :rolleyes:

Unfortunately it does  :lol:  Do you use many Pi's?

 

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1 minute ago, daveb653 said:

Unfortunately it does  :lol:  Do you use many Pi's?

 

False 9 - Roam from position, Close down more.

One of the Carrilero to act like a box to box.

The other 1 to act like a anchor man.

 

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4 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

False 9 - Roam from position, Close down more.

One of the Carrilero to act like a box to box.

The other 1 to act like a anchor man.

 

How do you get you're carr to act like an anchorman? I've tried before but there's no option to hold position, just make him less risky?

Close down more in opposition instructions? F9 doesn't have an option for more pressing, when in an extreme press already, in fact i don't think any players do :lol: 

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2 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

How do you get you're carr to act like an anchorman? I've tried before but there's no option to hold position, just make him less risky?

Close down more in opposition instructions? F9 doesn't have an option for more pressing, when in an extreme press already, in fact i don't think any players do :lol: 

Oops.

I forgotten about it.

For the F9 its just Roam from position.

 

For the "anchorman" - Tackle harder, Shorter passing, Take fewer risk. You can teach him PPM(Stay back at all times).

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3 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

For the "anchorman" - Tackle harder, Shorter passing, Take fewer risk. You can teach him PPM(Stay back at all times).

Thought as much, I really like the Carr role in FM20, seems to be the best middle ground midfielder, good solid support for both defence and attack, not overly biased one way or the other. 

Just a good solid CM

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