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crusadertsar

Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff, False 9s, 4-3-3, to Guardiola's Overloads) - updated July 6, 2020

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Posted (edited)

Having a first go at this after going over the thread and implementing some ideas I liked and getting rid of some things I was doing that were rather silly.

It's not perfect but when it works I am rather pleased:

e832ce359bd6a590673f16a274e4a674.gif

Edited by witticism

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, witticism said:

Having a first go at this after going over the thread and implementing some ideas I liked and getting rid of some things I was doing that were rather silly.

It's not perfect but when it works I am rather pleased:

e832ce359bd6a590673f16a274e4a674.gif

Nice! That's what I like to see. Show that the tactic works, at least sometimes haha.

I had something similar happen to me last night with Real Sociedad. Except it was my young IWB, Ander Barrenetxea, finishing with the tap in. Ended up being the key goal as we beat Sevilla 2-1. What a tremendous player he will be one day.

I also need to learn how make these near gifs. More useful for demonstration than a video.

Edited by crusadertsar

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1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

gifs

I use gyazo, which comes with software that helps with the selection, creation, and upload of the gifs themselves.

Making it all fit into the 7 second limit is a bit of a challenge tho, as is the limited upload capacity their free service plan allows. Other than that it's great.

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6 minutes ago, witticism said:

I use gyazo, which comes with software that helps with the selection, creation, and upload of the gifs themselves.

Making it all fit into the 7 second limit is a bit of a challenge tho, as is the limited upload capacity their free service plan allows. Other than that it's great.

Thanks! I'll be sure to check it out for my next article.

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@crusadertsarhaving a go at this with an Arsenal save, pre-season seems promising.  Quick question - do you play around with mentality during the game adjusting to what you are seeing, or is it just left on attack for the full 90?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, jdubsnz said:

@crusadertsarhaving a go at this with an Arsenal save, pre-season seems promising.  Quick question - do you play around with mentality during the game adjusting to what you are seeing, or is it just left on attack for the full 90?

Arsenal are a perfect side for this style :applause:Especially playing Ozil in False9 role. I was actually considering a go with them. Trying to do something similar to Wengerball. Great choice.

Regarding your question, no not really. I prefer to keep same intensity throughout to continuously control the game in the opposition half. The only times i drop it a notch would be if you get a player sent out.

Edited by crusadertsar

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40 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Arsenal are a perfect side for this style :applause:Especially playing Ozil in False9 role. I was actually considering a go with them. Trying to do something similar to Wengerball. Great choice.

Regarding your question, no not really. I prefer to keep same intensity throughout to continuously control the game in the opposition half. The only times i drop it a notch would be if you get a player sent out.

Ozil in the false 9?  hadnt thought of that but it makes sense!  was playing with Martinelli

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21 minutes ago, jdubsnz said:

Ozil in the false 9?  hadnt thought of that but it makes sense!  was playing with Martinelli

His attributes went down somewhat in the last update, but he is still the closest player to Messi at least attribute-wise.

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The one first team signing I made is Everton - he could potentially play in the False9 role too:

 

2020-03-06.thumb.png.c67de2b01fd223f77a4bde601ba0685c.png

Playing Emile Smith-Rowe in the RPM role and he seems to be liking it.  Most of my goals are coming from Pepe on the right - does that make sense? Pre-season finished now, about to start this custom season so will let you know how I get on:  

 

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1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

His attributes went down somewhat in the last update, but he is still the closest player to Messi at least attribute-wise.

agreed!

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2 minutes ago, jdubsnz said:

agreed!

Everton is also great choice. You could also you Lacazzette as a False 9 with the Ozil as the mezzala "Needle player" to bring the ball up with his superior dribbling. Pepe is a great attacking inside forward so it makes sense. 

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Posted (edited)

Update coming tomorrow :)

4-3-3 Roles and PPM Guide

Edited by crusadertsar

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great, I'm looking forward to it.
tested the tactics with Leeds with a few minor changes. F9 = DLF, AML - space interpreter at, pass into space.
I played a very successful second half of the season.

 

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7 minutes ago, Saargamer said:

 

great, I'm looking forward to it.
tested the tactics with Leeds with a few minor changes. F9 = DLF, AML - space interpreter at, pass into space.
I played a very successful second half of the season.

 

Good to hear! Me too. Tested for about half a season with Real Sociedad. And despite an early dip in form when we were still learning the tactic, recovered now and pushing top half. Had some recent good performances, such as beating Real Madrid 2-0 and tiying Barca 1-1. I'm excited to report more about it.

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anybody has tested a strikerless system with a Trequartista instead of a F9? in the actual match engine, it seems much better for me

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3 minutes ago, h3nrique_SEP said:

anybody has tested a strikerless system with a Trequartista instead of a F9? in the actual match engine, it seems much better for me

That's interesting! Would love to see results for such an experiment too.

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Thanks for this - really interesting and superbly written. 

Cant seem to get the download to work - just hangs there.....

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Fieldsy said:

Thanks for this - really interesting and superbly written. 

Cant seem to get the download to work - just hangs there.....

Thank you! It's weird about the download. I think it's something on your end. I just tried it on both my phone and computer and it works. I'll see if can just upload the file straight here as an attachment. Here you go it's below! Hopefully this will work

4-3-3-total-football.fmf

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)

Long time Pep follower and current coach.. I think this is the first FM version I've come this close to being able to recreate Pep tactics.  Although this feels like a cross between Pep and Klopp it creates some really attractive football.  Kudos for getting me down the right road.   Check out the midfield as I think it works a little better than yours.

ScreenClip.thumb.png.e73d7dbe67a97d234321f996a8f772de.png

 

PF (S) changes to a F9 (S) depending on player in the role.

Close Down More and Mark Tighter on IW-A, IW-S, MEZ-A, and DLP-S

If the team we are playing against plays with an attacking RB we Man Mark the IW-A on it (so Mark Specific Player PI)

F9-S - Close Down More

PF (S) - None

MEZ-A - More Direct Passes

DLP-S - Dribble Less

IWB-S - Pass it Shorter

CD-D - Pass it Shorter, Stay Wider

CWB-S - Pass it Shorter, Shoot Less Often

 

Adjust things based on what the game gives me but that is the starting point.  Really enjoying FM 20 and have had success with the above in the Prem AND 3 division Portugal side Lusitania Lourosa

Edited by Kharza_FM

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Posted (edited)

@Kharza_FM With all due respect, I like the way my midfield works more. There is a reason why I didn't use two static roles like DLP and Anchorman, because with Roaming Playmaker and DM(S) i have more dynamic movement and fluidity. I am looking to recreate a Total Football type system remember. Also I'm not quite sure how early crosses, higher tempo and attacking mentality work together to create possession. Could you explain that one? But it could be a nice tactic, don't get me wrong. Just not exactly what I'm looking for.

Edited by crusadertsar

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3 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

@Kharza_FM With all due respect, I like the way my midfield works more. There is a reason why I didn't use two static roles like DLP and Anchorman, because with Roaming Playmaker and DM(S) i have more dynamic movement and fluidity. I am looking to recreate a Total Football type system remember. Also I'm not quite sure how early crosses, higher tempo and attacking mentality work together to create possession. Could you explain that one? But it could be a nice tactic, don't get me wrong. Just not exactly what I'm looking for.

Did you try it?  Based on exactly how you described you want Busquets to play the A (D) role fits it better.  Also there is the added benefit of him sitting deeper for recycling possession and preventing balls into strikers so defensively it's more solid too.  I mean you recommended Plays Simple Passess and Runs with Ball Rarely PPMs.. I know what you are trying to create I've been working on trying to create variations of Pep since FM 2016.  This year is the closest I've ever gotten.  And remember it's possession with a PURPOSE.  The Hit Early Crosses is in there as a default starting spot because I want the ball swung in early before teams have had a chance to reorganize.  I alter this, WBIB, and Pass Into Space depending on what I see in the game.. this is just the starting point.  I've used this at top teams, middle Prem teams, and now a 3rd league team in Portugal and they all produce the same attractive football with a PURPOSE.  The Be More Expressive TI gives you the fluidity you want (look at the mentality btw.. FLUID).  Just trying to add to the conversation.. to each their own.

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4 minutes ago, Kharza_FM said:

Did you try it?  Based on exactly how you described you want Busquets to play the A (D) role fits it better.  Also there is the added benefit of him sitting deeper for recycling possession and preventing balls into strikers so defensively it's more solid too.  I mean you recommended Plays Simple Passess and Runs with Ball Rarely PPMs.. I know what you are trying to create I've been working on trying to create variations of Pep since FM 2016.  This year is the closest I've ever gotten.  And remember it's possession with a PURPOSE.  The Hit Early Crosses is in there as a default starting spot because I want the ball swung in early before teams have had a chance to reorganize.  I alter this, WBIB, and Pass Into Space depending on what I see in the game.. this is just the starting point.  I've used this at top teams, middle Prem teams, and now a 3rd league team in Portugal and they all produce the same attractive football with a PURPOSE.  The Be More Expressive TI gives you the fluidity you want (look at the mentality btw.. FLUID).  Just trying to add to the conversation.. to each their own.

Thanks for clearing it up. I didn't say your system didn't work. I just meant I don't think it would create the kind of possession build up that i would like. Especially having early crosses with attacking mentality and fast temp would get the ball up to strikers too fast in my opinion to really resemble possession style football. It might be very effective vertical attacking tactic for sure. So might try this idea with a different team in my non total football save. Thanks for the food for thought :)

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Posted (edited)

So be careful.. tempo is how fast you move the ball, i.e. make a decision.  It doesn't mean you play more direct passes and depending on the risk level AND decisions attribute (yep with you here big time) it will be where they go with the ball.  Passing instructions both at a TI and PI level control the directness of passes.  Lots of Pass it shorter instructions for most of the players, especially those in the back (all 4 in the back have pass it shorter and the A (D) role does take less risks so a solid 5 keeping the ball and circulating it.  Do they go "direct" to a wing if they are open.. of course but there is nothing wrong with that.  They still move the ball in the middle of the pitch to move the defense with short intricate passes and then free up a wing and create a 2v1.  The thing I see the most that I hadn't seen before with this setup is the up back and through patterns emerge.  Remember the key to finding the "right" tempo is moving the ball right before you get closed down by a defender.. mentality is all about risk not about direct or not.  Sure at times this system can engage the engine counter attack mechanism (this is different than the instruction counter btw) and go to goal quickly.. but it isn't like you don't see Pep's teams do that.  Most of the time though if it isn't on they keep the ball and cycle it and look to move it to the DLP (S) or the MEZ (A) who are responsible for taking more risks (think DeBruyne, Silva, Xavi, Iniesta). 

 

The thing I noticed about this engine is that when you get counter pressed the BEST way to respond is to have your instructions set to hold shape and the pass goes backwards to then go forwards.  What do you mean about going to the striker to quickly?  The point of using an F9 is to have them join the build up and if they drop into a pocket of space you play it in to their feet and they bounce it back to a supporting midfielder and they play through or cycle.  This happens with Aguero all the time at City and we saw it with Messi at Barca.  I will concede that the wide players are probably a bit more direct but if you look at Pep's teams he has always put the dribblers out there.. I like a little more Brazilian dribbling flair especially in the final third.  Dribblers break teams down in FM and real life.  Still messing around with the role for the AML.. my gut is telling me it should be a Winger and more like Pep's evolution @ Bayern.

Edited by Kharza_FM

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Il 13/3/2020 in 19:03 , crusadertsar ha scritto:

Tactic Update: https://ufile.io/2tdh74zf (Counter instruction should be removed as per latest version).

 

What do you mean?

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2 minutes ago, sejo said:

What do you mean?

In the older version I was using both counter and counter-press as TIs for transition. But i wasn't sure whether the file I uploaded still had both. It should only be counter-press.

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Posted (edited)
On 02/03/2020 at 13:15, crusadertsar said:
 

The Perfect Team, Perfect Roles

So to summarize, in order to play by Guardiola's Rules of Positional Play, you will need:

  1. Control the Half-Spaces (or channels if you will)
  2. Overload the midfield through numerical superiority
  3. Use inverted wingbacks to help in the midfield control and overload
  4. At the same time free up space on at least one flank and have your most dangerous attackers exploit it.
  5. Keep the ball as much as possible and if you lose it win it back immediately. Thus high defensive line and aggressive pressing are needed.
  6. Start attacks from the back, getting the centrebacks involved in the buildup.
4-3-3.jpg

These should give you the rough idea on the team instructions that we will need. The next part is making sure that each player performs a specific role on the field. Again, like cogs in the machine. You will need a perfect player for each role. By this I do not mean the absolutely best, world-class player. But one that is perfectly suited to play that role due to his key attribute distribution. I will go into more detail on this in the next article where I will present the final tactic. For now these are the player roles you will need. I am using the legendary 2010-2011 Barcelona team as an example of the basic archetypes.

5-768x432-1.jpg
  • Valdes was the classic sweeper keeper. His role was essential when playing with a high defensive line. He also acted as an extra player to help in maintaining possession and building attacks up from the back.
  • Piqué and Mascherano were the ball-playing central defenders who were comfortable carrying the ball closer to midfielders or fullbacks to gain better passing angles. They were also mobile enough to drop back and cover. So you typical slow and strong defender who can only hoof the ball cannot apply.
  • Alves - was the complete wingback with freedom to roam forward. Especially when both Xavi and Iniesta joined the attack. At the same time Abidal was his more conservative partner on the left. He acted like a third centerback at times. Thus defensive balance was kept.
  • Busquets - Pivot - the only real specialist role in the whole formation. He was the all-important defensive midfield pivot. Busquets fit into Barcelona’s system perfectly and was the key defensive foil to Messi's free "Cruyff" role. His timely interceptions coupled with exquisite composure and positioning contributed greatly to maintaining possession and shielding the defence.
  • Xavi - Controller- also an important role in the midfield. He was basically a classic #10 who dictated the team's tempo. He was also key in recycling possession towards areas that opened up after the opposition would overload his side of the field. It helped greatly that he was always able to control the ball even in the face of the most intense opposition pressure.
  • Iniesta - Needle Player - who will thread the whole between your midfield and opponent's defence. As a #8 Iniesta acted like an attacking midfielder who carried the ball forward into dangerous areas. In this he was helped by his unrivaled dribbling skill and low stature (and centre of gravity).
  • Pedro - was the versatile winger who hugged the touchline and provided width on the side Guardiola wished to overload. It also allowed Alves cut inside from his fullback position. Sometimes he would cut inside to support Messi and leave room for overlapping Alves on the wing.
  • Villa - Shadow Striker - would also stay wide on the left, seemingly harmless as the second winger. But the moment that there was an overload created on the right, his more dangerous side would emerge. Then he would drift inside in a difficult-to-mark curved run toward the penalty box. His reputation for finishing attacks made him into one the best strikers in Spanish history.
  • Messi- "Cruyff" Role - Catalyst. Those who read my previous article on Total Football, are probably familiar with Cruyff's all-important role to Dutch 4-3-3. Best player on the team and the brain of the formation. Guardiola gave him the full freedom to drop deep, drift to the wings or just roam around. The opposition defenders had no choice but follow him. By his mere movement, Leo created space for his teammates. What a real False9 must be.
Barca-1.png?fit=662%2C714&ssl=1 You can find the download for the preliminary version of this tactic at the end of the article. Mind you, it is bound to change as I test and report on in future articles.

Again these roles are not meant to be exact replication of 2010 Barca but rather an inspiration for my Total Football 4-3-3 Tactic's Roles. It's more of a general amalgam of styles from three of Guardiola-led clubs. For instance, while Alves did a lot of roaming, he did not really act like an inverted wingback. Guardiola did not start using inverted wingback until his Bayern days. What all his tactics between 2010 and 2020 have in common is that 4-3-3 shape (4-1-4-1DM wide if you will). As well as his constant drive to create overloads. That is something that he learned from his great mentors, Cruyff and Bielsa. And is also something that I myself too cannot stop doing. Once you seeing Total Football everywhere, it is hard to go back to playing football any other way.

 

 

 

 

@crusadertsar Do IWBs with overlap instruction making arcing runs from the half-spaces in midfield back outside to the channels?

Edited by malemute kid

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@malemute kid the main effect of overlap on IWB is to make them play more like a hybrid between a regular wingback and inverted wingback. With overlap they will advance further up the field before cutting inside. Also I often see my left IWB overlapping the inside forward to deliver cutback and crosses. I find they are much more deadly than without this instruction. It is important that your left one is much more defensively responsible with great positioning and tackling however.

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Posted (edited)

crusadertsar, I am glad I found this thread. I have been playing FM, started with the original CM, on & off ; & Cruyff is my hero. Also I am a Football Coach IRL ; so I tried replicating the great Ajax Team of 1970-73 on [ don`t laugh ] Fifa 20, obviously to no avail. So I came back to FM20, I had FM17. So I have had a stab at a Tactic using Cruyff ( who no-one can replace! ), Neeskens, Krol & Haan etc.

An interesting point about the Ajax vs Bayern match, was last 2 goals headers & play was lobbing the ball into the box, picking up the headed out loose ball = the Tactic evolved, based on `the players`.

But playing as Bolton, I [ cheated ] did download 2 other Tactics to help me win a few matches, getting into The Championship ; as you say firstly you have to keep your Job. I will persevere though, maybe just staying in The Championship / surviving in The Prem.

I can post my Tactics - on my laptop , later maybe. I take it I can download your Tactic above instead?.

GL to you.

Edited by nextqprmanager

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@nextqprmanager Yeah totally, Ajax was a very adaptive team based on the opposition. It wasn't just always short sideways passes. It was the first real vertical progressive possession side. 

For sure I would love to see your tactic in this thread. And the download above should work if you are interested :)

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18 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

@nextqprmanager Yeah totally, Ajax was a very adaptive team based on the opposition. It wasn't just always short sideways passes. It was the first real vertical progressive possession side. 

For sure I would love to see your tactic in this thread. And the download above should work if you are interested :)

Below is my Team which beat West Ham 2-1 [ 2nd in Championship ]. As you will notice, even with the wrong players`, it works. I had fitness / injuries issues. Also I have only used this Tactic I think 3 matches, so there is hope.

You will probably disagree with most of the instructions?, but it will evolve I think. As said before, it often depends on players` available.

Ajax_70_73.png

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, nextqprmanager said:

Below is my Team which beat West Ham 2-1 [ 2nd in Championship ]. As you will notice, even with the wrong players`, it works. I had fitness / injuries issues. Also I have only used this Tactic I think 3 matches, so there is hope.

You will probably disagree with most of the instructions?, but it will evolve I think. As said before, it often depends on players` available.

Ajax_70_73.png

It's a good base to work with. Although you might need to cut down some of the TIs as you watch more matches. You are aiming for possession style I can see. But sometimes you have to be careful not to overdo it or you will get possession for the sake of possession with little threat in final third. For example when you instruct your players to play short passes it already makes the team naturally narrow. So when you add to that "very narrow" instruction it narrows your formation needlessly. Playing very narrow will make it harder to open up space in opposition defence and overload their flanks.

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)

Why more direct passing on the RPM? I use it when Im having a hard time entering the final third tho.

Edited by Razor940

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38 minutes ago, Razor940 said:

Why more direct passing on the RPM? I use it when Im having a hard time entering the final third tho.

To encourage him to switch the ball from the overloaded right side to the left flank where my inside forward can get 1v1s.

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13 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

It's a good base to work with. Although you might need to cut down some of the TIs as you watch more matches. You are aiming for possession style I can see. But sometimes you have to be careful not to overdo it or you will get possession for the sake of possession with little threat in final third. For example when you instruct your players to play short passes it already makes the team naturally narrow. So when you add to that "very narrow" instruction it narrows your formation needlessly. Playing very narrow will make it harder to open up space in opposition defence and overload their flanks.

Won a few more matches last night. I did change the very narrow to narrow in 1 match then standard vs weaker Team & worked slightly better when we seem to be banging our head against a brick wall ; but what worked better was changing to attacking [ like my other 2 Tactics both attacking ], we then scored more freely. I will give updates if you like?.

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I was trying for centuries something like this, I think everyone ends up on something similar. The thing Im finding is that everyone, including me, was thinking about the IF(A) on the wrong position. I think we all learned to have a playmaker on one side and someone pushing forward on the other side, the problem I think is that people with the years going on dropped the AP role but still think about Mezz, CM(a) as a playmaker, wich is not true. They can call plays, but they dont take the ball home like a true playmaker, so the other role next to him normally is a true playmaker, and he's the one that diagnolize plays most of the time, wich not happen much when he's on the same side as the IF(A). Also, from re watching 2010 Barcelona it's true that Villa and Iniesta are on the same side, but my mind always cheated me because I mainly remember that final against United where Villa played on the right.

Another thing, I don't think Mezzala is the best role for Iniesta, yes he occupied the left half space, but at the same time the Mezzala doesn't roam at all because of the move into channels shout, wich is funny because he has roaming by default, but I challenge anyone to say the opposite because the role is an half space merchant, nothing less nothing more, he doesn't go anywhere near another channel. And if you have two half space players, you will probably cancell 2 players at the same time if you're not cautious. So I tried a CM(A) with stay wide and I see a lot more roaming and what Iniesta really did on the field. Plus, they don't occupy the half space at the same time 100% of the time as the IF+Mezz would do.

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17 minutes ago, Razor940 said:

unknown.png

Omg!!!! Could you share your tactic? I'm trying to recreate pep barca style but i'm really struggling in %possession  and in goals scored

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1 minuto atrás, gennamitico disse:

Omg!!!! Could you share your tactic? I'm trying to recreate pep barca style but i'm really struggling in %possession  and in goals scored

Can't, because you would not learn nothing from it. And what is good for me might not be good for you. Plug and play is dead since 2013 or 2014. 

But I can assure you the shape is particularly identical to what Crusader created, because like I said, there isn't much to differ. You see a lot of people using it too and fail, because they don't think about space, or they overkill in the TI department, or they don't have the players, or even they can't understand that you won't have high %s every game because there are other teams that play like you (this happens a lot in this FM) or for any other reason. 

Try to understand the concept of mentality, and everything involved, and how you wanna play. For example, there are a lot of people that talk about overloads in this forum, but I assure you they don't know **** about what they are talking. Guardiola does a lot of overloads and you still don't see everything to the mount and faith in god, you see people in different channels.

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2 ore fa, Razor940 ha scritto:

Another thing, I don't think Mezzala is the best role for Iniesta, yes he occupied the left half space, but at the same time the Mezzala doesn't roam at all because of the move into channels shout, wich is funny because he has roaming by default, but I challenge anyone to say the opposite because the role is an half space merchant, nothing less nothing more, he doesn't go anywhere near another channel. And if you have two half space players, you will probably cancell 2 players at the same time if you're not cautious. So I tried a CM(A) with stay wide and I see a lot more roaming and what Iniesta really did on the field. Plus, they don't occupy the half space at the same time 100% of the time as the IF+Mezz would do.

Do you mean you play CMa instead of MEZa? With the RPM beside him?

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2 horas atrás, sejo disse:

Do you mean you play CMa instead of MEZa? With the RPM beside him?

Yes, but I might change things on the role and PIs depending on what I see.

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7 minuti fa, Razor940 ha scritto:

Yes, but I might change things on the role and PIs depending on what I see.

Ok thanks. Can I see which roles and shape do you use?

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On 19/03/2020 at 21:19, Razor940 said:

Why more direct passing on the RPM? I use it when Im having a hard time entering the final third tho.

 

On 19/03/2020 at 22:01, crusadertsar said:

To encourage him to switch the ball from the overloaded right side to the left flank where my inside forward can get 1v1s.

Doesn't this conflict with you're preferred PPM of Plays One Twos for the midfielders and attackers?

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Hovis Dexter said:

 

Doesn't this conflict with you're preferred PPM of Plays One Twos for the midfielders and attackers?

By using the PI it doesn't mean he will do it all the time. Same with PPM , it's not constantly on. I like to see him using his decision making to judge when through ball is appropriate versus short pass. That's the reason he needs Dictate the play trait too.

Edited by crusadertsar

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Just now, crusadertsar said:

By using the PI it doesn't mean he will do it all the time. Same with PPM , it's not constantly on. I like to see him using his decision making to judging when through ball is appropriate versus short pass. That's the reason he needs Dictate the play trait too.

That's interesting because my best AMR has PPMs of Runs with Ball Down Right and Hugs Line which seemingly conflicts with the Cut Inside with Ball PI for the Inverted Winger. So does mean that he's likely to play as a cross between a winger and inverted winger?

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