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Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff, False 9s, 4-3-3, to Guardiola's Overloads) - updated July 6, 2020

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Posted (edited)

@crusadertsar In the tactic you've put up for download (LeftRaumdeuter) the AML is in a IF on support duty, while in the screenshot in your main post Villa is a IF on attack duty. Which one would you recommend? In theory, that position should be one of your main goal scorers, so attack duty should make sense. Could you elaborate on why he's on support duty in the download version?

Why do you use the 'Run At Defense' TI? Aren't Guardiola's teams known for passing rather than dribbling? In theory that TI tells all players to dribble more. Wouldn't it make more sense to leave it unticked and tell the AML/AMR and the Mezzala to dribble more on an individual basis (via PI)?

Don't get me wrong - I love what you're doing. Just trying to understand the reasoning behind it.

Edited by burnum

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, burnum said:

@crusadertsar In the tactic you've put up for download (LeftRaumdeuter) the AML is in a IF on support duty, while in the screenshot in your main post Villa is a IF on attack duty. Which one would you recommend? In theory, that position should be one of your main goal scorers, so attack duty should make sense. Could you elaborate on why he's on support duty in the download version?

Why do you use the 'Run At Defense' TI? Aren't Guardiola's teams known for passing rather than dribbling? In theory that TI tells all player to dribble more. Wouldn't it make more sense to leave it unticked and tell the AML/AMR and the Mezzala to dribble more on an individual basis?

Don't get me wrong - I love what you're doing. Just trying to understand the reasoning behind it.

Initially the reasoning was to alter the behaviour of my deeper players who might not dribble that much or make penetrating runs due to their default role coding. Even with individual instructions it didn't seem like enough. For instance i want my right inverted wingback to go so far in advance so as to frequently bypass the roaming playmaker and be a serious goal threat. That's is why I play a natural inside forward like Quincy Promes on that role.

Same with mezzala, he is my "Needle" player so will need to get up very close to my attackers to support them and flood the penalty area. For this you will also need a special player with great dribbling, passing and balance.

Overall it's still very much a work in progress and some things are bound to change as I test the tactic for the full season. It's meant to be a long-term project sort of like my Young Devils, except fully focused on one formation, 4-3-3 or 4-1-4-1 DM wide. What i might do is remove dribble more for the whole team, keep it for specifuc players and just increase overall mentality from attacking to very attacking. It actually worked very well for me in FM19, playing on very attacking very fluid system. In that case I would use Inside Forward on support and then rely on his PPMs such as cut inside and get into opposition area to make him more attacking.

Hopefully this helps to clear it up. But it's not super clear to me yet also. I think we will be testing and learning all together haha. So any input and advise is welcome from all :)

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)

The idea is to play like 1970s Ajax. Thus very aggressive possession system. Control the ball in opposition half, win it back right away when you lose it and keep pushing up. Always move the ball up the field never down. German Gegenpress has nothing on Dutch in the 70s :cool:

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)

2 more ideas:

- What do you think about changing the DM-s to Halfback on defend duty?

- What about instructing the keeper to distribute to Centre Backs and Full Backs to encourage building up from the back instead of playing the long ball? This should also increase possession numbers.

Edited by burnum

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Just applied your most recent setup for my squad after repeated attempts at creating something on my own without much success. I've struggled really hard with tactics this year as I'm lacking the necessary understanding on how the different instructions manifest in the ME. First off; results have been amazing. 5 straight wins after being on a 6 game loss streak - against top teams, too! Rock solid defensively and some really luxurious attacking play. 

Most importantly, though, I finally have a well thought out starting point that allows me to learn by deconstructing instead of constructing - ie., I can finally delve deeper into the tactics aspect without getting fired! :)

Keep up the good work, bud. 

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It's working very good for me with amazing possession football but my strikers (f9, iW and IF) are struggling. I don't know why, maybe for the PPMs?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, sejo said:

It's working very good for me with amazing possession football but my strikers (f9, iW and IF) are struggling. I don't know why, maybe for the PPMs?

By struggling do you mean they are not scoring or low ratings? If it's working well then Im assume that you are winning. And if you are getting attractive possession football, isn't that good? Besides False 9 and IW are supporting roles in this tactic. Your best most dangerous attackers should be placed in IF, Mez and IWB(S) slots. If you have players with good off the ball, composure and acceleration in those roles then there should be good goal output from them. 

Edited by crusadertsar

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On 02/03/2020 at 18:15, crusadertsar said:
 
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Bit of a delayed respone so sorry for that, but great article mate, can't wait to see how this develops especially considering how good your Red Devils stuff is!

Have you played with this system yet, or is it a "plan a" of sorts? If you have then great, if not less great but still not awful as I believe in your Red Devils 4-3-3 (I think the enganche article) you used dual IWBs so my questions still relevant. Although I can't recall the duties in that particular system.

Is the IWB-s offering much as an attacking threat or his he simply sitting alongside the central midfielders? Or is he arriving in the box and making aggressive threatening runs? In my system (I made a thread discussing it a few weeks back and its drifted down the forums abit in the last week, although I intend to resurrect imminently. Its about a defence 4-4-2 in defence and a narrow diamond in attack, if you've not seen it) I'm currently using dual IWBs like you but whilst you've got a defend and support, mine are support and attack. However, I'm being exploited on the counter incredibly easily due to them being out of position by default of their positioning with the ball. Logically I could drop each of them by one duty in line with yours, however I'm concerned about their attacking output in this instance. Hence my question, do yours provide much, if any, attacking threat? Anyone whos got experience with these issues is also more than welcome to respond too, this question isn't exclusivey for @crusadertsar

Great post mate

Cheers

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Posted (edited)

@OJ403 Thanks mate :) and to answer your question I tested it until about September with Fiorentina and had some great results in some ten games. I'm away from my computer so cannot post screens but I think we had a really good preseason and stand undefeated after like 5 or 6 games in League. Then I made one change in the role of my left attacker ( I was using Chiesa as Raumdeuter) so now I started testing it with Ajax, primarily because I think they have great players to fit this system. So far in friendlies it looks as good if not better. But will have to see how we fare in the league. Again with Ajax shouldn't be hard to win, but it's more about how we win and who scores. So I'll be sure to watch the games to let you guys know.

So far I can tell you that my inverted wingbacks differ greatly from the ones in my Man United save. As there I had nobody really amazing in that role. And for it to shine you need someone really good. Basically at Ajax I'll be using an inside forward and a young attacking wingback who I can really mold into this role. The PPMs are also very important here and my inside forward has a perfect set, to hopefully pass on to the youngster Serginho Dest. I'll try to post some screens here later when I get home to show you what I really mean.

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, burnum said:

2 more ideas:

- What do you think about changing the DM-s to Halfback on defend duty?

- What about instructing the keeper to distribute to Centre Backs and Full Backs to encourage building up from the back instead of playing the long ball? This should also increase possession numbers.

1) About halfback. It's a good role. Just not what I need. He will drop between the defenders when wingbacks move up. Which is not ideal as then the midfield will get more isolated from the backline. To help my build up from the back I need him to mostly maintain his position or even to go up in support sometimes. Remember the name of the game is winning the midfield battle and overloading the opponent in midfield. And three midfielders are always better than two.

2) I played around with distribution instructions before and honestly don't see much difference. A good sweeper keeper will know to pass it to closest defender when playing out the back. That will often be your Ballplaying defender. A sweeper and BPDs work especially well together. Also when played on attack duty a sweeper keeper will drible out aggressively and leave his area to make passes to the BPD. It's actually the case of the opposites when it comes to keeper logic. The more careful you tell your keeper to be the more likely the longball hoofing becomes. If you think about it, it makes sense. The safest option is to kick it long away from danger not to pass it short to BPD. So just get a great sweeper and give him full freedom.

Edited by crusadertsar

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@crusadertsar

Sounds good mate, really appreciated.

For context I'm using Max Lowe on the left and Jayden Bogle on the right, who are both young enough to develop (to an extent obviously, although Bogle could stay in the 11 indefinitely). I'm looking at maybe pushing Bogle on into the MR slot as a W-S moving forward though as both of them would be wasted in a defend duty IWB in my eyes. So I could indeed sign the ideal IWB-D in the imminent summer window. What sort of runs do they both make? And where do they sit when your in possession, at least in the highlights you see?

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Posted (edited)

@OJ403

So here is my star Right IWB at Ajax. As you can see he is a natural inside forward with PPMs of one. But has a really interesting attribute distribution. Basically good values in some key IWB attributes.

Things like Dribbling, First Touch, Passing, Anticipation, Off the Ball, Work Rate, Acceleration, Pace and Stamina. Great physical specimen. 

ACBA43AAC3B9491860953BC5BDB4F8C16C58669C (1600×900)

I really like his PPMs which all encourage him to make tricky runs into the final third. But in case you are wondering you do not need amazing player or even very fast one to play this role well. Like your Jayden Bogle does not have the best Acceleration but has potential for great mental attributes, which is even more important. For example, in my other test save with Real Madrid, my Right IWB is Portu which is a different kind of player, almost more like a Raumdeuter:

11620A9D12334724019FAB57443FEBDBBBAB5F43 (1600×900)

Here you can see that while his dribbling is not as good as Promes', his mental attributes are much better and he has two very fitting PPMs of "Gets Forward" and "Arrives Late in Area". In the clip below you can actually see an example of interplay between these two PPMs as well as what a good IWB is capable of in my system. Its only from a friendly and the tactic is still far from fluent. Yet we can already see the kind of nice one-two touch passing it can be capable of. We ended up beating Swansea 3-0 with three beautiful goals, none of which came from set pieces. And we managed to get the Left Winger and False 9 on the scoresheet. While Portu did not actually score, and only came away with one assist and a pretty low rating of 6.7, his contribution was actually pretty big as a substitute. 

You can see how my Sweeper Keeper(A) passes calmly to my Ball-Playing Centreback. The chemistry between the two is great. I often see plays started this way. Sweeper will usually seek out the BPD especially with Play Out of Defence selected. Also while playing on higher mentality you will see less of the conservative hoofs from your sweeper keeper and more passing to the defenders (especially if you are using one good BPD). Provided your SK has good mental attributes. BPD has to have good passing, first touch and vision of course (and often dribbling).

So then my BPD Aritz Elustondo makes a beautiful long pass to the Right Inverted Winger Odegaard. Showing that short-passing possession style cannot be without a bit directness. Odegaard in turns makes a very nice move of holding up the ball, letting Portu, the IWB, run past him and then pass to him once he is already ahead and unmarked. Portu then proceeds to dribble infield, bringing the ball close to my RPM and Mezzala pair of Mikel Merino and Oyarzabal. Two passes later and the ball ends up with our Left Inside Forward Roberto Lopez. He is unmarked because of the overload happening on the right side. Goal!

Overall, a very nice move which showcases both the power of Inverted Wingbacks and creating tactical overloads to free up attackers on the opposite side.

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)

And if people are interested, here is some statistical analysis from the above game. 

Here you can see the Heat map for both our Right Inverted Wingbacks (S) and Left Inverted Wingback (D). As you can with all the green and red areas, our right IWBs spent alot of time in opposition half, as was to be expected. 

7BCEA756FC2A94AE0848022CC558FC53AB970158 (1600×900)

And here is another analysis, of the amount of possession Touches that both the primary and sub IWB (S) had during the match. Their combined numbers were actually some of the best for the whole team.

ADC479BA1A3FDCA9CEAAE713B013CD16CFCB46AF (1600×900)

And finally below is the map of Average positioning for the Right IWB (above) and the Left IWB (below) during the match. Again its interesting to see that Portu was camped out alot in the opponent's half, especially without the ball (outlined in red). Again his Arrive Late in the Area PPM probably had a play in this as he made his late runs, looking for space to open up in front of him. 

E3F4E7DCDF86F3EC622E90B34B32FD79DA60250D (1600×900)

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)
6 ore fa, crusadertsar ha scritto:

So here is my star Right IWB at Ajax. As you can see he is a natural inside forward with PPMs of one. But has a really interesting attribute distribution. Basically good values in some key IWB attributes.

Things like Dribbling, First Touch, Passing, Anticipation, Off the Ball, Work Rate, Acceleration, Pace and Stamina. Great physical specimen. 

 

So basically for IWB you use very offensive players not caring about defensive stats? Did I understand well? Is it the same for the IWB on defensive duty?

Thanks mate!

Edited by sejo

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, sejo said:

So basically for IWB you use very offensive players not caring about defensive stats? Did I understand well? Is it the same for the IWB on defensive duty?

Thanks mate!

No! Not at all. Like I said in the article my IWB(d) is acting like a third centreback almost. You need a very good defensive player there with great positioning and tackling. Sort of like Nicolas Tagliafico at Ajax or Nacho Monreal at Real Sociedad. 

Edited by crusadertsar

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11 minuti fa, crusadertsar ha scritto:

No! Not at all. Like I said in the article my IWB(d) is acting like a third centreback almost. You a very good defensive player there with great positioning and tackling. Sort of like Nicolas Tagliafico at Ajax or Nacho Monreal at Real Sociedad. 

Ok now I got it: IWBs very good offensive, IWBd very good defensive! Thank you!

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Reading this has given me some ideas about how to create overloads to get my left-sided IF(a) into space in a 4-2-3-1.

My current thoughts are:

Right back: FB(a)

Right-CM: DLP(s)

Right-AM: W(s)

Central-AM: AM(s) - move into channels, roaming

The idea being that these players would work together to create an overload on the right, drawing defenders to them, and the Inside Forward on the left would be left in space, either for a long ball from the DLP, a through ball from the AMC or a cross.  Does this seem sensible?

I also have questions about how to set up the left-back and left-sided CM. Presumably I’d want the midfielder to stay deep? Would the full back be best overlapping or staying deeper too? If they overlap I’d worry it would reduce space for the Inside Forward, but if they stay deep I’d worry about the Inside Forward getting isolated.

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Posted (edited)

Following up on this, I've noticed something interesting that I've noticed across FM20 as a whole: 

Passes in behind the channels to an Inside Forward simply do not happen. 

I can count on one hand the amount of times I've seen a wide player be played into space in between a central defender and a fullback in the past 4 months. This goes for my own team and AI. 
It just simply does not happen, regardless of how much space there is. Granted, the runs into this space happens rarely too, and often when they do it's at the completely wrong time. 
My IF is scoring goals, but they are almost exclusively from crosses. It seems to me the role isn't tuned to do what it says on the tin, at all. 

I can't be the only one to have noticed this, surely? It applies both when in possession in opposing half and on the counter. Players rather go for 50 yard dribbles than pass to the obvious man. 
What is your take on this @crusadertsar?

Edited by Christopher S

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Just to follow up on my own gripe: 
https://gyazo.com/be402792996735459a939ee5e3515de1

Look at how my IF (a) (#9) just stands there. There is ample space to run into to at least generate a threat behind the enemy defense. And why is he even positioned that narrowly in the first place? 
This is the default for how the IF acts on the pitch, and it's not specific to this tactic/setup - it's the guideline for both me and the AI. 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

Just to follow up on my own gripe: 
https://gyazo.com/be402792996735459a939ee5e3515de1

Look at how my IF (a) (#9) just stands there. There is ample space to run into to at least generate a threat behind the enemy defense. And why is he even positioned that narrowly in the first place? 
This is the default for how the IF acts on the pitch, and it's not specific to this tactic/setup - it's the guideline for both me and the AI. 

I think the problem is that sometimes the game is very rigid in its interpretation of roles. It's like we have an idea on paper of how we think our tactic will work with roles which seem perfect. But often little things like a difference between attack or support duty makes a big difference in the simulation. The problem with a system that relies on one sided overloads is timing. To unlock the side with your inside forward you need to make sure that he has adequate support still on his side and also more importantly that he doesn't rush the gun too much. With Attack duty he might be arriving into penalty area too soon. Leaving your winger no choice but to cross to him. Especially when playing on attacking mentality. That's one of the reasons I use a supporting inside forward there, to stay a back a little longer to allow support and others runners to get up there and occupy opposition markers. A Raumdeuter role might also be good idea. In fact originally this tactic project started with that role in mind. Anyway the best idea is to try to mess around with different roles and duties and see which suits your team best.

Edited by crusadertsar

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I'm obviously going to try and see if I can get it to work, but allow me to rephrase: 

I've yet to see any team and/or player consistently make plays like that. Not my own, not the AI. It's not about roles or the AM R/L position. 
I'm referring to the fact that runs and passes are almost never made into channels by anyone. 80% of goals for and against, across 11 seasons, have been through crosses or balls over top. 15% set pieces. 5% long shots. 
I've seen others complain about the same thing recently, but it hasn't struck me until now how non-existant these types of runs and passes are. 

Is it possible that this is what the "Underlap" instruction is meant to generate? Combined with "Pass Into Space" or something? 
Maybe @Rashidi can chime in here - what's your take on this?

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Posted (edited)

@Christopher S Like you see in the video clip I posted, my inside forward scores a nice goal that definitely was not from a cross. In fact it was a pretty intricate build up that resulted from at least 6 touches before making it in the back of the net. This game is definitely capable of some beautiful football, you just need to be patient and careful to unlock it 

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

@Cristopher S Like you see in the video clip I posted, my inside forward scores a nice goal that definitely was not from a cross. In fact it was a pretty intricate build up that resulted from at least 6 touches before making it in the back of the net. This game is definitely capable of some beautiful football, you just need to be patient and careful to unlock it 

It's a good goal, but it's not remotely close to what I described and what I'm looking for. It's 5 passes leading into your IF taking an unpressed long shot from 17 yards. 

Edited by Christopher S

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Just now, Christopher S said:

It's a good goal, but it's not remotely close to what I described. It's 5 passes leading into your IF taking an unpressed long shot from 17 yards. 

Okay i miscounted lol but what I meant is that there can be a good variety of goals it just depends on what system you use. If you are really looking for more cutback type passes and runs into space then use more runners from midfield and low crosses combined with underlaps maybe.

It's not exactly what I'm aiming with this tactic. I don't really care what kind of goals we score as long as I can make them happen consistently because of the overload system. And for my left inside forward to be the primary scorer. 

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Another: 
cc588f004bc39bd39d5688bac626db8a.jpg

What is my IF doing here (#7)? He's positioning himself as if he were a W(s). He should be much further up. 
Fast forward 5 seconds: 
e796a0fcec62f8130f324f99082e48ee.jpg

He's barely moved 1 yard further up the pitch. Like what? The whole point of an Inside Forward is to exploit the channels between CB and FB, yet the role consistently puts the players nowhere near that.  

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1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

Okay i miscounted lol but what I meant is that there can be a good variety of goals it just depends on what system you use. If you are really looking for more cutback type passes and runs into space then use more runners from midfield and low crosses combined with underlaps maybe.

It's not exactly what I'm aiming with this tactic. I don't really care what kind of goals we score as long as I can make them happen consistently because of the overload system. And for my left inside forward to be the primary scorer. 

I can respect that. I'm just trying to explore on a concept here. I'm not looking for cutbacks or midfielders running into channels. 

I want my Inside Forward to be played into space behind the enemy defence and/or between the CB and FB. 

From what I've seen so far in FM20, that simply does not happen with the AI nor with my team. In other words, it appears to me that the Match Engine is struggling to generate that sort of attacking. 

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That is kind of weird for him to stay back that deep. I wonder if there are some PPMs or custom instructions affecting his behaviour. 

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2 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

That is kind of weird for him to stay back that deep. I wonder if there are some PPMs or custom instructions affecting his behaviour. 

No custom instructions and no PPMs that should make that happen. Also happens regardless of who I put in the role, sadly. 

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Posted (edited)

But from what remember Inside Forward does not even have move into channels hard coded in or selectable. If you are looking for a wide attacker to move into channels you might need to either try Raumdeuter or Wide Targetman or get creative with a role where you can customize it with that instructions like wide Trequartista maybe?

But yeah I think it would be great for someone like @Rashidi or @Experienced Defender to chime in as i find that my own knowledge of the inner workings of the ME is somewhat limited.

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

It's not selectable, nor is it for any roles in the AM L/R positions for some ungodly reason. If it's not hard coded into the IF role, then I don't know what the **** SI are doing. It's literally the key component of the role. 

Only three roles have it I think, Raumdeuter, Wide Targetman and Trequartista. And one is a ball magnet and two are roaming, space investigators. So not sure if it would be any help. I am intrigued by Wide Trequartista as it's a role that doesn't necessarily need to be exclusive playmaker role. It can be modified quite heavily to act as a creative wide attacker, with the right kind of player of course.

I think I might even look at this in my next article if people are interested. Developing a hybrid role sort of between Trequartista and Raumdeuter that drifts more aggressively on the wing before making a final curving run towards goal when time is right. Sort of how Villa was supposed to act.

Edited by crusadertsar

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@crusadertsar

Really appreciate the incredibly detailed response mate, really good food for thought. Hopefully Ill be able to get on in an hour or so and have a dabble with the support and defend duties.

Cheers for the insight mate and I'll eagerly await the next update!

Cheers

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2 hours ago, Christopher S said:

It's not selectable. If it's not hard coded into the IF role, then I don't know what the **** SI are doing. It's literally the key component of the role. 

Mind the language! I removed your post for that reason.

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14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Mind the language! I removed your post for that reason.

Aight.

Mind chiming in, while you're here? Someone as experienced as you surely has some insight on why the Inside Forward does not play like an Inside Forward should.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, howard moon said:

Reading this has given me some ideas about how to create overloads to get my left-sided IF(a) into space in a 4-2-3-1.

My current thoughts are:

Right back: FB(a)

Right-CM: DLP(s)

Right-AM: W(s)

Central-AM: AM(s) - move into channels, roaming

The idea being that these players would work together to create an overload on the right, drawing defenders to them, and the Inside Forward on the left would be left in space, either for a long ball from the DLP, a through ball from the AMC or a cross.  Does this seem sensible?

I also have questions about how to set up the left-back and left-sided CM. Presumably I’d want the midfielder to stay deep? Would the full back be best overlapping or staying deeper too? If they overlap I’d worry it would reduce space for the Inside Forward, but if they stay deep I’d worry about the Inside Forward getting isolated.

Sorry for the late response. I think that your right side's overload should work very well. It's mostly how I would do it, except for one role. I would switch your FB to an IWB on support. Especially seeing how you have a winger in front to provide width and crosses. Inverted wingbacks are perfect for creating overloads. In fact that is why they were created by Bielsa. Basically you want a midfielder or even strong attacking midfielder type in that role. By coming inside he draws more bodies to the midfield, freeing more space on the wings not only for the right winger but more importantly for the left inside forward you want to unlock. 

Regarding the fullback on the left, I would play him as a wingback on defence. This way he will mostly protect that flank as your inside forward attacks. But a nice thing is that being a wingback he will still make an occasional overlapping run when opportunity presents itself.

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)

@howard moon

Also for the left sided CM role, I will be a devils advocate and suggest a mezzala on support or even on attack. The first instinct here might be to play a conservative role like carrilero but you need to think in terms of support. When in possession how are you going to get balls reliably to your inside forward? You cannot just rely on crosses from winger or through balls from DLP. All those are high risk cross field passes. Most of the passes to your left attacker will probably come from a player closer to him.  Thus mezzala. Also you can afford a more offensive role because you are already operating with a safer DM and wingback on defend (if you apply my advice).

Some might say that mezzala and inside forward operate in the same halfspaces but I wouldn't worry about this. I never seen them get in each other's way. If anything some of the best partnerships Ive had in the game have been between a mezzala and inside forward. So try it out and most importantly have fun :)

Edited by crusadertsar

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5 hours ago, Christopher S said:

Mind chiming in, while you're here? Someone as experienced as you surely has some insight on why the Inside Forward does not play like an Inside Forward should

Well, I don't remember that I have ever said that "IF does not play like it should". Things like player traits or your overall tactical setup or circumstances on the pitch in a given situation (including the opposition players' behavior) can cause a player/role to occasionally do what you normally would not expect, but it does not mean that it generally does not behave the way it should. 

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I never claimed you saying that. It's my claim; there few to no runs in between FB and CB from either me nor AI, and even when there are, no passes are ever attempted into the space - it's as if the Match Engine does not recognize it as a viable passing option.
It's an observation based on the past 1200 hours of FM20. I'm not categorically saying it can't happen, only that it essentially doesn't happen at all, one way or the other. Regardless of role, PPMs and systems.

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Posted (edited)

@Christopher S Have you tried starting a thread over at the bugs forum and reporting this issue there? It sounds serious enough to merit its own thread and I'm not sure if it's productive to discuss here specifically. 

Edited by crusadertsar

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Just now, crusadertsar said:

@Christopher S Have you tried starting a thread over at the bugs forum and reporting this issue there. It sounds serious enough to merit its own thread and I'm not sure if it's productive to discuss here specifically. 

I've been considering it. I didn't want to report it as a bug if I'm the only one experiencing this, which is why I brought it up here. Maybe, by chance, I'm doing something tactically that means neither my side nor any side I verse is able to produce these types of chances. Maybe I'm a statistical anomaly. Didn't want to be the one to scream "BUG! BUG!" as soon as I'm not getting what I want, you know.
Plus, knowing that the overall level of knowledge on tactics in here is some steps above mine, so maybe someone who'd have a solution or whatever.

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5 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

I've been considering it. I didn't want to report it as a bug if I'm the only one experiencing this, which is why I brought it up here. Maybe, by chance, I'm doing something tactically that means neither my side nor any side I verse is able to produce these types of chances. Maybe I'm a statistical anomaly. Didn't want to be the one to scream "BUG! BUG!" as soon as I'm not getting what I want, you know.
Plus, knowing that the overall level of knowledge on tactics in here is some steps above mine, so maybe someone who'd have a solution or whatever.

I think your problem might be the positioning of your inside forward. What you are asking it to do is not exactly how it behaves on its vanilla instructions, eithrr on attack or support duty.

You are looking for penetrating runs between fullback and CB no? Well without any personalized instructions inside forward won't really do that actually. Remember it has no move into channels instruction. It's not a space investigator role like Raumdeuter. The main task of inside forward is to receive the ball wide and move inside with it, dribbling. And look for a long shot or pass to forward.

The attack or support duty will mostly change the positioning of IF. So on support it will start deeper and will have more time to accelerate but will act essentially the same when it gets close to penalty area.

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Posted (edited)

@Christopher S the kind of behaviour you are looking for might be possible with a PI though. For example by telling your inside forward to stay wider, he will receive the ball at touchline and then try to bring it in diagonally between the lines. This would probably cause difficulty for fullbacks and CBs to stop him in this channel. So it's all question of starting positioning.

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)

I appreciate the tips, but I've tried all of it. And while some of these instructions improve the positioning aspect, it still never produces runs into the channel from the wide player. Mezzala (a) do sometimes make the runs, but then the other half of the issue plays in - no one ever passes into the space.

I think I'll just try to compile some examples and write a detailed post as a bug report, or something. Might not be an actual bug, but I'm fairly confident that runs and especiall passes into the channels between CB and FB is severely undertuned in the ME. A big component of this is that I never see it done by the AI against me, either.

Edited by Christopher S

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I still think you are looking for behaviour that's not part of the role. It's like asking a regista to run into channels. Honestly this behaviour from inside forwards was never seen in any previous FM games. But I agree a detailed report and pmk on bug forum is probably your best option at this point. Like I said before I don't know enough about inner workings of the engine to help you more.

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13 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Honestly this behaviour from inside forwards was never seen in any previous FM games

Absolutely :thup:

(unless the player himself has the "move into channels" trait)

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I still think you are looking for behaviour that's not part of the role. It's like asking a regista to run into channels. Honestly this behaviour from inside forwards was never seen in any previous FM games. But I agree a detailed report and pmk on bug forum is probably your best option at this point. Like I said before I don't know enough about inner workings of the engine to help you more.

I'm saying it should be a part of the role, but even ignoring that, my point is that no players are doing it regardless of role and position. Not on my team, nor on the enemy team - across 11 seasons.
I don't know how many times I have to say this. I've specified repeatedly that my experience applies to the game as a whole. I don't mean to be harsh here, but it's a bit frustrating to have to repeat one self. :/

Edited by Christopher S

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

I'm saying it should be a part of the role. Furthermore, I'm saying that no players are doing it regardless of role and position. I don't know how many times I have to say this. I've specified repeatedly that my experience applies to the game as a whole. I don't mean to be harsh here, but it's a bit frustrating to have to repeat one self. :/

Im just a little confused by what the issue is now. Why do you think it should be part of the role? When you read the in-game description, it is very clear on what inside forward should and should not do. Behaviour that you are describing is not actually part of this role. Like i said IF repertoire is pretty limited to cutting inside, dribbling and shooting and passing inside. As @Experienced Defender mentioned their specific PPMs could change this sometimes. As indeed if he has move into channels trait then he will probably act more as you wish.

But to me it sounds like you are looking more for Raumdeuter or even Wide Trequartista role.

And I'm sorry if it's frustrating, but I think I'm just trying to find the best way to help you. As is Experienced Defender. But I think so as not to detail this thread we might need to continue this in its own thread in a more technical part of the forum. 

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

 Why do you think it should be part of the role?

Because that's what an Inside Forward does in reality. Cuts inside, both off and on the ball. He plays like a striker with a wide starting position. That's what Villa and Henry did for Barca, that's what Ronaldo did for Real (until moved in central), that's what Messi has done for most of his Barca career. Robben. Rashford. Milito in Mourinhos Inter. But even disregarding that, my point is not about the IF label/role - it's about the game/match engine as a whole. 
 

50 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

But to me it sounds like you are looking more for Raumdeuter or even Wide Trequartista role.

And I'll say again - I've tried that. No role in the AM L/R position produces it. I've yet to see a role from Striker position do it. I see it rarely from CM (though only Mezzala), but even then the passes never come. I've not seen it from AMC. My entire point for the past posts has been that I can't get ANYONE to make those runs or hit the passes, regardless of role or position. Likewise, it categorically NEVER happens against me. 

I'll make a separate thread or report it to technical, not gonna drag this on. I don't mean to hijack the thread, just thought it'd be relevant as a key part of this thread was to emulate David Villa in Barca. 

Edited by Christopher S

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It could be the case that game's inside forward role never acted how real life forwards are supposed to then. In that case I think I'll continue trying to see if I can achieve something more realistic with a modified wide Trequartista role.

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Just now, crusadertsar said:

It could be the case that game's inside forward role never acted how real life forwards are supposed to then. In that case I think I'll continue trying to see if I can achieve something more realistic with a modified wide Trequartista role.

All power to you! If you can make it happen somehow, I'd love to see it. Wide players exploiting the channels is some of the best football I see. :)

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