Are These Defenders Good

[Ciderarmy]

So after escaping the drop in the top divison in Spain on the last day after not winning any of my last 18 games and conceding 88 goals I need your advice on my defenders.

Im confused if its my tactic which needs looking at or should I have a clear out and start again with my defenders what do people think of my defenders?

[Ciderarmy]

[robot_skeleton]

Atienza is not really good, the others are fine, but show us your tactics rather than defenders.

[Ciderarmy]

[Ciderarmy]

Thanks for the reply 

This is the tactic I ended up with as before I played with a dm the opposition were just walking through us and this was another reason why I played with a high line as I tried lower def line and lower engagement and the opposition were pinging balls all over the place and strangely with the higher line we look more compact.

Im still not convinced by the tactic as I've tried various 4-4-2 but I've totally ran out of ideas this was a kind of last throw of the dice.

My first 2 seasons I played 4-3-3 and got 2 promotions but felt defensively it wouldn't be strong enough in the top division so thought I would try and do a Burnley play with 2 banks of 4 lower defensive line but nothing really worked 

Player wise we are not fantastic and expected to struggle so staying up was a massive achievement.

Attacking wise is our strongest area with both our strikers attracting interest from PSG and Barcelona but it's just the defensive side I can't get right.

Any advice would be appreciated.

I know trying to be cautious but with a high line doesn't fit but when I played with a lower line the opposition were playing right through us it was ridiculous.

[herne79]

I'm a broken record when it comes to this - you're only giving us half the story .  You're not showing the coach reports which are every bit as important as the attributes.  What are all the pros and cons of the players?  What do the coach reports say about things such as consistency, injury proneness, pressure, professionalism, big matches, dirtiness and so on?

A player could have the best looking attributes ever, but if he's inconsistent, can't handle pressure, doesn't like big matches, is injury prone, unprofessional and will get sent off every other match he'll be less than useless.

Never draw conclusions based on just the attributes - always look at the coach (or scout) reports as well .

[Ciderarmy]

Hi Herne thanks for your advice the coach reports are pretty good nothing major to worry about.

After gaining more experience playing fm I make sure I read the reports first sometimes you have to gamble for example when I got promoted I only had 3 million to play with so for defenders I made sure they could tackle good mentals etc but it's tricky trying to get good players for most positions when you only have 3 million to spend 

[robot_skeleton]

could you show me your "off the ball" positionings, where you're players are when you loose the ball or when you're defending deep? btw you're playing on cautious mentality, why use such conservative fullbacks?

[Ciderarmy]

Hi where would I find that information is it in the analysis screen?

[robot_skeleton]

In-match, pause the game and make screenshots.

[summatsupeer]

12 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

so for defenders I made sure they could tackle good mentals etc

What they need depends how your defending.  If sitting deep+narrow with FBs and DM then really a CB doesnt need to tackle, he just needs to be in a good position and command it to head it or block.

I would suggest looking at the analysis screen to get a better idea of sources of opponents goals (cross, through ball etc) and location (one flank worse than other) but if your changing tactics all the time it will be hard to interpret if it was the tactic or players.

[Experienced Defender]

These players (defenders) look decent on average (though none of them is especially good), but I am not sure about the tactic. Your playing style doesn't look like being clearly defined.

[axelmuller]

of course, coach reports are important. But lets face it, the only good player of that bunch is Tomas Kalas. Ivan Rodriguez is also semi ok, others are lacking some key attributes so bad that a coach report alone wont save them.

I'd chose Kalas with poor coach report over them other ones all day everyday. but then again I suppose it just depends which way you look at it

[Ciderarmy]

Hi thanks for your reply I agree with your assessment of my players I was thinking it was my tactic but I'm resigned to the fact with only 2 million to spend I just haven't got the resources to improve the squad and even Kalas isn't that good.

No matter what I've tried 4-4-1-1 4-5-1 or 4-4-2 just can't stop conceding goals over 100 last season and almost 2 per game this season.

PThis is my luck last game 2-1 up with ten minutes to play conceded in the 92 and conceded a 95th min pen

I have taken everyone's advice but after playing fm since 05 this is the first time I've struggled this bad 1 win in 25 and this will be my first ever relegation unless someone has a miracle tactic 

[Ciderarmy]

hi experienced defender what do you mean my playing style isn't defined?

[Ciderarmy]

So not to start a conspiracy theory but this is ridiculous 

One win in 25 just playing a friendly against a team in the same league with the same players same tactics and you guess it 3-0 up at half time when for the last 25 games my team didn't even know where the goal was 

[Experienced Defender]

43 minutes ago, Ciderarmy said:

hi experienced defender what do you mean my playing style isn't defined?

Instructions such as more direct passing, counter, cautious mentality and to some extent regroup suggest you want to play defensively solid counter-attacking football. But then other TIs like higher LOE (and higher DL), take short kicks and distribute to CBs and FBs are more suited to possession-based styles. All this means that you are on a sort of no man's land with your tactic - neither really counter-attacking nor possession-oriented. 

If you want to play defensively solid counter-attacking football, you don't have to play on a low-risk mentality such as cautious (or defensive), especially as your team - including defenders - is not so good. On the other hand, you can play sort of possession football on a lower mentality, but that's so-called defensive possession football, which is usually employed only when you want to preserve a result you are satisfied with (e.g. a draw or a narrow lead against a stronger opponent). Otherwise, it makes little sense.

[Ciderarmy]

Hi Experienced Defender I tried to play a lower line of engagement with 2 solid banks of 4 and standard pressing but the opposition were pigging the ball all over the park and were walking right through my midfield.

I played short passing as even on standard the amount of passes we gave away were ridiculous and as we were conceding to many goals I didn't want to just give away possession 

I know trying to be defensive with a high defensive line is counter productive but funny enough we looked more compact 

[Experienced Defender]

10 minutes ago, Ciderarmy said:

I tried to play a lower line of engagement with 2 solid banks of 4 and standard pressing but the opposition were pigging the ball all over the park and were walking right through my midfield.

Well, I fear it's precisely your midfield that is the primary source of your defensive issues. All 4 midfield roles (not counting the DM) are pretty much attack-minded. Having a DM is not enough to protect the back line, especially if your team is relatively weak overall. Changing the DM to anchorman could help a bit, since anchor is the most defensive of all DM roles, but even then your defense would be rather exposed. To be more precise, it's the mezzala that needs to be changed to a more conservative role, because it's primarily an attack-minded role (regardless of support duty) and your other CM is already on attack duty. Alternatively, you may keep the mezzala and switch his duty to attack, but then the CM on attack should be changed to something more conservative. 

 

19 minutes ago, Ciderarmy said:

I know trying to be defensive with a high defensive line is counter productive but funny enough we looked more compact 

You can be defensive even with a higher d-line, but the question is if your team is good enough to play that way. And it's not just the d-line, but also LOE. Rather than playing on cautious mentality with higher DL and higher LOE, I would consider balanced mentality with standard DL and either also standard or lower LOE. That would also allow you to employ tighter marking (and possibly even harder tackling a.k.a. get stuck in) more safely.

And then there remain the attacking (in-possession) instructions that need to be sorted out. For a more direct counter-attacking style, instructions that would make sense include higher tempo, direct passing, hit early crosses and optionally/occasionally pass into space. 

In transition, I would use just the Counter TI (and sometimes regroup), while leaving the decision on the type of distribution to the keeper (if you ask him to distribute to defenders and the opposition is using the Prevent short GK distribution, you could end up in trouble given that your defenders are not so good with the ball).

[NabsKebabs]

Your defenders have very low jumping reach for a deep system such as the 4141. Do you concede a lot from crosses?

[Ciderarmy]

Hi to be fair I'm conceding goals all over the pitch as I conceded 100 in our first season in the top flight and it's a real suprise as I've always done quite well over the years and never been relegated and I always start with Bristol City and lower league sides.

No matter what I try and I've taken lots of advice I still can't find a way to stop the goals.

I think it is the players rather than the tactic as on my team report comparison page were bottom on everything 

[pheelf]

Defending is not just the preserve of your defenders and in some sense, the quality of your defenders can be made irrelevant if the system isn't well designed around them.

I'd like to expand on something you stated earlier when you said: " Attacking-wise is our strongest area with both our strikers attracting interest from PSG and Barcelona".

If that is the case then why are you playing with only one forward?

I think the reason why you could be conceding so many goals is that you spend the majority of your games looking to soak up pressure. Sometimes the best defence is a good offence. Having a more positive approach and putting some more players in advanced positions can help with that and actually help you defend as you push back the opposition.

As it stands, you don't really give much for the opposition to worry about, all they have to do is take care of your DLF(A) and your attacking threat is severely blunted especially since he is so isolated. You are considered an underdog in the league which means that teams are going to attack you so instead of hoping to soak it all up and fail why not look to take advantage of all that lovely space they will leave as they overcommit men forward and hit them where it hurts.

Best Regards

[Ciderarmy]

[Ciderarmy]

Hi to be fair I'm conceding goals all over the pitch as I conceded 100 in our first season in the top flight and it's a real suprise as I've always done quite well over the years and never been relegated and I always start with Bristol City and lower league sides.

No matter what I try and I've taken lots of advice I still can't find a way to stop the goals.

I think it is the players rather than the tactic as on my team report comparison page were bottom on everything 

[Ciderarmy]

Hi 

18 minutes ago, pheelf said:

Defending is not just the preserve of your defenders and in some sense, the quality of your defenders can be made irrelevant if the system isn't well designed around them.

I'd like to expand on something you stated earlier when you said: " Attacking-wise is our strongest area with both our strikers attracting interest from PSG and Barcelona".

If that is the case then why are you playing with only one forward?

I think the reason why you could be conceding so many goals is that you spend the majority of your games looking to soak up pressure. Sometimes the best defence is a good offence. Having a more positive approach and putting some more players in advanced positions can help with that and actually help you defend as you push back the opposition.

As it stands, you don't really give much for the opposition to worry about, all they have to do is take care of your DLF(A) and your attacking threat is severely blunted especially since he is so isolated. You are considered an underdog in the league which means that teams are going to attack you so instead of hoping to soak it all up and fail why not look to take advantage of all that lovely space they will leave as they overcommit men forward and hit them where it hurts.

Best Regards

I tried going 4-4-2 as I thought when I got promoted it would be safer playing with with 2 banks of 4 hitting teams on the break knowing our strikers would score enough just to keep us up.

first 2 games went really well won 2-0 and lost 3-2 against Barcelona but then lost the next 2 4-0 and 6-0 so we're getting outplayed all over the park so went more defensive with one up top and 1 dm but nothing is working and now I'm trying all sort of things with no real reason just hoping something sticks.

On a side note just played 3 friendlys against teams in the same division with the same tactics and same players and just won 3-0,3-1 and drew 0-0 sometimes just don't get the game 

[Chief232]

I'll offer a slightly different perspective here and say straight up that I think it's mostly your players.

I'm not brilliant on the tactical side of the game, much stronger at buying/picking the right players, but I don't see anything extremely flawed about your tactic defensively. It's a 4-1-4-1, so you can afford to be a bit more adventurous generally speaking with the midfield 4, particularly with a cautious mentality. I'd maybe switch the right cm to a BBM or even a cm-s personally, depending on the players and how games go. It's ok to push your defensive line higher if you feel like you're giving the opposition too much respect so I wouldn't be too worried about that. I'm sure there's other tweaks that could be made watching the games, but it's not a setup that screams flawed to me.

Your defenders, on the other hand, I would be a bit worried to use in La Liga particularly looking at their mental and physical stats. Kalas isn't bad at all, but lacking in the air, so defending too deep might see him struggle. Atienza really lacks in physicality, has a 2 for determination, and I don't think the rest of his mental stats make up for it. Andujar is ok, but also has low anticipation, composure, decisions, and positioning. Perez hopefully could become a good player and is a decent one right now,  but I see he's only on loan. Garcia could be good too, but the 5 determination worries me, he's lacking in physicality(although still young) and his positioning could do with a bit of work too. Kalas, Perez, and Garcia is an ok three to have, but I think you could do with a CB who is strong in the air, decently determined, and with fairly good mental stats to partner Kalas, especially if you're losing Perez and Garcia.

Not a fan of De Los Reyes - 5 determination and just an average second division LB IMO. Serviceable backup I suppose but I think this is the position I'd address first. I'd be looking for someone with much higher determination primarily, but I think you can also find a player here who is just better in most areas, or significantly better in one area, as he doesn't stand out anywhere. Rodriguez is a good backup but I feel a player with better all around physical stats here is necessary at this level, although he's not a bad player otherwise.

[Ciderarmy]

Thanks Chief I'm tending to agree with you as I've used 4-1-4-1 before when I've won promotion to the top flight and never struggled like this 

The problem I have is the board is being really tight with the money and all though we have 34 million in the bank they have only given me 3 million to spend on transfers and secondly we don't have a great reputation to attract better players 

[Chief232]

I think you could find some quality upgrades in the 500k range. It really depends on how many leagues you have loaded however, and obviously you're a few years into the future so it's a bit harder to give names. I tend to load a ton of leagues and players personally, so your mileage may very, but I find the Scandinavian leagues and Portuguese leagues a good place to find some real bargains, and you can usually find some serious gems on free transfers/expiring contracts. Since you've stayed up while conceding a fair amount of goals, I would think your attack is doing it's job to some degree, so would look at putting that money into a LB and a CB in particular.

[Ciderarmy]

Thanks for the tip I will definitely look into that I'm normally use players on loan from the premiership in England and have got some good loans from Ajax but usually wages are quite high