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Marko1989

Most annoying thing in FM for me

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Posted (edited)

Does anybody else think that attributes decline when it comes to young players is really annoying?

For example: I am playing with Lyon. And I spent all my money on Vinicius Junior. He had a great first season, I was really excited to develop him as best as I can. He had Acceleration 17 and Dribling 17.  

That was when he was 20 years old. And now he is 21, and after a very good season he have Acceleration 16 and Dribling 16. And instead of increasing those attributes to 18 after a great season, now I have to spend another year waiting for him to increase those attributes back to 17. I know that 16 and 17 is not a big difference but I think 16 and 18 it is.

I had to sell my best young striker Gouri because almost the same was happening to him. He had 15 finishing, then 14. Then after one year again he had 15 and then again 14. I had to give up and sell him.  I know that this is not a problem with my training, this is happening randomly to players. ( and not only in fm 2019 ) I play FM mainly to buy young players and develop them and this is really ruining game for me. I lose all motivation when I see some youngster developing great and then randomly declining. That random attribute declining when it comes to young players is almost completely destroying point of developing. You can spend one year making/training some player to be faster, and when you finally for example achieve 15 acceleration you will lose that randomly and all your work will be for nothing.

Edited by Marko1989

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Are you using staff with the right stats and abilitys to help improve them along using the mentoring groups is useful if you know how to use it properly.

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50 minutes ago, gaz&Sacha7 said:

Are you using staff with the right stats and abilitys to help improve them along using the mentoring groups is useful if you know how to use it properly.

I have almost 5 stars staff for every training section. And I play fm for about 20 years so I know basics of training at least. And my team is crushing, if something is wrong with the training I would not be able to play like this: https://prnt.sc/nzca1s

This is something I noticed in maybe last 3-4 iterations of fm. I think randomly about 3 players in squad get attributes decline no matter of age. ( when you cllick on a player and every attribute has that orange arrow pointing down ). 

In previous versions you say to those players "I think your developing is not good enough in past few months" ( something like that ) and if he is really in period of attributes decline he accept the criticism and after a couple of weeks his attributes start growing again.

In this version, if I see that player is in decline period, for example some important attributes went from 15 to 14 I criticize his training and he never accepts. In most of the time he replies with "Who, me? You must be thinking of somebody else". Even if you can clearly see that orange arrow down is on all attributes and his main attributes went from 15 to 14!! 

I've found an example in my save with Dortmund. I've just won CL in second season and bundesliga, here is the young left back who had 11 assists and 7.49 average at the end of the season. He had 15 dribling when I bouth him and he never had 15 again. He did not had any major injuries and he is my first left back.




 

Screenshot_6.jpg

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Could be he's near his PA, so there's limited scope for his attributes to develop.

I do tend to find that Coaches/Scouts struggle to identify those young players who've hit their ceiling already (which is fair enough, since this happens IRL as well)

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Yeah think about in real life a player can have a fabulous season but every season is different. Not everyone has the ability to prefrom and get better like a messi or Ronaldo performance and perfection is rarely found no matter how much you train. Some have it some dont...

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33 minutes ago, turnip said:

Could be he's near his PA, so there's limited scope for his attributes to develop.

I do tend to find that Coaches/Scouts struggle to identify those young players who've hit their ceiling already (which is fair enough, since this happens IRL as well)

This player is just one example. It happens to players with huge potential such as Aourar and Vinicius Junior.

14 minutes ago, gaz&Sacha7 said:

Yeah think about in real life a player can have a fabulous season but every season is different. Not everyone has the ability to prefrom and get better like a messi or Ronaldo performance and perfection is rarely found no matter how much you train. Some have it some dont...

Yes, every season is different. But for example some youngster is playing better with every year, I don't understand how his attributes can get worse. What can happen for example in my case. I'm playing so good with Lyon that I think I will win Champions League easy. And Vinicius Junior could be CL best player and League 1 best player. Even Ballon D'or contender. He is playing better than past year but he has worse dribling and acceleration attributes. 

He had 17 dribling and Acceleration when he was 20 years old but he had 16 dribling and acceleration 22 years old when he won ballon d'or. Makes no sense. This makes sense only when it comes to older players.

There is something in the game that randomly select players to go through short attributes decline period but I just think that people were not paying attention to it.

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8 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

I know that this is not a problem with my training

What exactly are you doing?  You take control of both General and Individual Training or leave some/all to your assistant?

You give Vinicius as an example, what precisely did you do with his training during the season?  How much match time did he have?  Did he have any injuries?

1 hour ago, Marko1989 said:

There is something in the game that randomly select players to go through short attributes decline period but I just think that people were not paying attention to it.

Three things can typically happen to cause this:

1) A player is at or near to his full potential but he keeps developing.  When this happens, some of his attributes can increase but if they do other attributes must decrease in order to not exceed his potential ability.

2) It can (bizarrely) mean he's actually developing very well.  Current Ability cannot grow by more than a certain amount during any given period and is checked at the end of that period.  However attribute growth takes place immediately - every day - and drives current ability.  So if attribute growth (and thus CA) has a major spurt it can actually exceed the maximum allowed CA growth for that given period.  When this happens the game will drive back down attributes until the maximum CA level for that period is reached.  It does that by taking very small attribute values (0.1 or 0.2) away from most/all attributes rather than larger values from just a few.  This can explain why periodically we notice lots of orange down arrows such as in your screenshot above.  It may also have a noticeable effect - attributes are actually measured to the 10th degree but are rounded up or down to the nearest whole integer.  So where a player is at, say, 15.6 (we see 16) and he loses 0.2 to reduce down to 15.4 (we see 15), because of the rounding effect all we actually see is a reduction from 16 to 15, which appears larger than it actually is.

3)  Player development can quite easily show peaks and troughs over time.  So a striker for example may see his Finishing attribute move each month as 14,14,15,14,13,13,14,15,15,16.  The rounding effect mentioned above can also play a part here.  Look at the long term trend rather than the short term numbers.

So, rather than focussing on the down arrows, how are the long term development graphs of your players?  Over a long period I'd expect to see: a general upward trend for attribute development where players still have the potential or ability to develop; overall roughly static lines where players have reached their potential or won't develop further (although some attributes may show an increase whilst others show a decline as described above); and an overall downward decline in ageing players or players with serious injury concerns.

Edit - it's also worth mentioning the difference between orange and red downward arrows.  Red arrows point straight down (vertical) and signify a large and immediate attribute reduction (-1 or more) such as when a player is injured and he loses 1 or 2 points in Bravery.  Orange arrows (as seen in your screenshot above) point diagonally down and show small attribute reductions (0.1 or 0.2 for example) such as you may expect to see in relation to my second point above.

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Posted (edited)

In this version, I leave general training to Assistant and I have no problems with that, players are developing good in every save, I have problems just with that short period of attributes decline. I manage individual training by myself. I think assistant is not a problem, I remember having this in FM 2015, where I did all training by myself.

I really appreciate your detailed answer, but I think I don't know English well enough to undestand fully all that CA thing :) 

He did not had any serious injuries. I've just checked his development over past 12 months. So, he is better player this season but has worse First Touch, Decisions, Off the Ball, Vision, Acceleration, Pace and he is weaker than when he was younger.  ( Dribling is back to 17 )

So, he had better vision and off the ball when he sat on R Madrid bench for 2 seasons than in my team where he is really great.  Isn't it that more match expirience gives you better off the ball movement and vision on the field? Even I don't understand that all CA/PA thing, I think all that attributes declining does not make sense at all when it comes to young, huge potential players who have better and better seasons as they get older. I mean now nothing makes sense for me.

If my training is really the problem. How is he then a better player than ever if he is slower, weaker, has worse vision, movement because of my bad training? No matter that all CA/PA calculations this not makes sense in any scenario. I must stop thinking about this haha :D

This is realy bizarre as you said ( but I would rather say annoying )

I've attached his development in past 12 months and this season form screenshots. So 9 goals and 9 assists. ( I don't know why images are this small)
 

Screenshot_8.jpg

Screenshot_9.jpg

Edited by Marko1989

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9 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

I've attached his development in past 12 months and this season form screenshots. So 9 goals and 9 assists. ( I don't know why images are this small)
 

Screenshot_8.jpg

I think what is possibly happening here is that Vinicius has reached his maximum potential.  To explain, I'm afraid I'm going to have to touch on CA/PA again, but I'll try to simplify it.

Current Ability ("CA") is a number between 1-200 which the game calculates primarily from a player's attributes to keep track of how a player is developing.

Potential Ability ("PA") is again a number between 1-200 which the game uses to ensure players don't simply keep developing forever.  It's essentially a cap on the maximum CA that a player can have.  So Messi may have a PA up near 200 whereas a 4th division player may have a PA around 100 - that way we don't get 4th division players as good as Messi.

Specifically with Vinicius I'd suggest that overall he cannot develop any further - his CA has reached it's maximum allowed by his PA.  So you'd imagine that his attributes would no longer be capable of change right?  Wrong.  Rather confusingly, his attributes are still capable of change but - because his CA is at it's maximum - in order for an attribute to increase, a different attribute must decrease to compensate.

So, when you look at the screenshot here, some attributes are showing growth (the green arrows) but others are showing a decline (the orange arrows) to compensate for the growing attributes.

So, how to fix?  I'm sure you don't really want his First Touch and Off the Ball declining while his Marking and Tackling go up right? :D

1)  Review what General Training sessions your assistant has planned.  Make sure it seems sensible based on what you want from your team.  Change it if it looks weird.  Get a new assistant if he's rubbish.

2)  Make sure all players are in the correct training groups.  I assume you want Vinicius in with the forwards for example.  That way he'll focus on attacking related training (and so relevant attribute development) during whatever General Training sessions your assistant plans.

3)  Review your player's Individual Training that you have assigned.  Make sure the roles you have selected look to develop only the relevant attributes you want developed.  Change their role focus if it's not.  Remember - with "role" training you aren't actually developing the role, you are developing the attributes.  So with Vinicius make sure his role selection is focussed on only the attributes you want developed - so if (for example) the attributes associated with "Inside Forward" are better for him than, say "Winger" - change his training to Inside Forward even if you play him as a Winger in your tactic.

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Why they always start sentence with "I play FM 20 years...." (think he know everything) 

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2 hours ago, herne79 said:

I think what is possibly happening here is that Vinicius has reached his maximum potential.  To explain, I'm afraid I'm going to have to touch on CA/PA again, but I'll try to simplify it.

Current Ability ("CA") is a number between 1-200 which the game calculates primarily from a player's attributes to keep track of how a player is developing.

Potential Ability ("PA") is again a number between 1-200 which the game uses to ensure players don't simply keep developing forever.  It's essentially a cap on the maximum CA that a player can have.  So Messi may have a PA up near 200 whereas a 4th division player may have a PA around 100 - that way we don't get 4th division players as good as Messi.

Specifically with Vinicius I'd suggest that overall he cannot develop any further - his CA has reached it's maximum allowed by his PA.  So you'd imagine that his attributes would no longer be capable of change right?  Wrong.  Rather confusingly, his attributes are still capable of change but - because his CA is at it's maximum - in order for an attribute to increase, a different attribute must decrease to compensate.

So, when you look at the screenshot here, some attributes are showing growth (the green arrows) but others are showing a decline (the orange arrows) to compensate for the growing attributes.

So, how to fix?  I'm sure you don't really want his First Touch and Off the Ball declining while his Marking and Tackling go up right? :D

1)  Review what General Training sessions your assistant has planned.  Make sure it seems sensible based on what you want from your team.  Change it if it looks weird.  Get a new assistant if he's rubbish.

2)  Make sure all players are in the correct training groups.  I assume you want Vinicius in with the forwards for example.  That way he'll focus on attacking related training (and so relevant attribute development) during whatever General Training sessions your assistant plans.

3)  Review your player's Individual Training that you have assigned.  Make sure the roles you have selected look to develop only the relevant attributes you want developed.  Change their role focus if it's not.  Remember - with "role" training you aren't actually developing the role, you are developing the attributes.  So with Vinicius make sure his role selection is focussed on only the attributes you want developed - so if (for example) the attributes associated with "Inside Forward" are better for him than, say "Winger" - change his training to Inside Forward even if you play him as a Winger in your tactic.

Thank you very much for your time, I understand it now :) It does makes sense now, but still I don't like it :D I think they should do something else to prevent players developing forever other than attributes compensation.

Anyways, nice explanation. I will also try some of your advices.

 

56 minutes ago, Ivanche12 said:

Why they always start sentence with "I play FM 20 years...." (think he know everything) 

Where did I said that I know everything? I wrote that just to save people time so that they don't have to explain all basics to me. I literally wrote that I know training "basics". Think sometimes before posting.

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9 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

Thank you very much for your time, I understand it now :) It does makes sense now, but still I don't like it :D I think they should do something else to prevent players developing forever other than attributes compensation.

Anyways, nice explanation. I will also try some of your advices.

It's also woorth bearing in mind that the attributes are actually to two decimal places. So that drop from 17 to 16 may only be from 16.51 to 15.48 - very little drop in ability. 

Just make sue that his individual and also some of the team training works on those  attributes regularly - training is as much about maintenance as it is about improving.

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On 08/06/2019 at 09:44, Marko1989 said:

Does anybody else think that attributes decline when it comes to young players is really annoying?

For example: I am playing with Lyon. And I spent all my money on Vinicius Junior. He had a great first season, I was really excited to develop him as best as I can. He had Acceleration 17 and Dribling 17.  

That was when he was 20 years old. And now he is 21, and after a very good season he have Acceleration 16 and Dribling 16. And instead of increasing those attributes to 18 after a great season, now I have to spend another year waiting for him to increase those attributes back to 17. I know that 16 and 17 is not a big difference but I think 16 and 18 it is.

It depends. If the player becomes stronger, then his acceleration may decline naturally. Not necessarily a bad thing, if other attributes are increasing. Body changes, even at a young age.

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