Help me complete my 433

[TheJanitor]

Hello. I'm currently playing with Valencia. Starting without the first window, I want to get the best of the existing squad and I like the idea of playing Rodrigo and Guedes out wide. Both are very pacy, with solid dribbling and off the ball movement.

I opted to play 433 with two inside forwards:

I like the roles selection here, but I'm not sure about instructions and need a bit inspiration. Like I mentioned, I want to exploit Rodrigo and Guedes as my key attackers and I think about playing more directly and on the break, but I'm still not sure about how the approach the instructions.

[Experienced Defender]

Regarding the selection of roles and duties, I would only swap around the mezzala and BBM, for the sake of balance. 

13 minutes ago, TheJanitor said:

I'm not sure about instructions and need a bit inspiration. Like I mentioned, I want to exploit Rodrigo and Guedes as my key attackers and I think about playing more directly and on the break, but I'm still not sure about how the approach the instructions.

This selection of roles and duties generally suits a  counter-attacking approach, which you want to play. So regarding the instructions, those I would definitely use include higher tempo, counter and lower LOE. Others (including the mentality) would depend on a number of factors. But given that you are Valencia, a potential problem is that you may often not be in a position to play on counter-attacks because most sides will look to play defensively against you. So it's quite possible that you will have to find some middle ground between counter-attacking and control/possession football.

[TheJanitor]

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Regarding the selection of roles and duties, I would only swap around the mezzala and BBM, for the sake of balance. 

This selection of roles and duties generally suits a  counter-attacking approach, which you want to play. So regarding the instructions, those I would definitely use include higher tempo, counter and lower LOE. Others (including the mentality) would depend on a number of factors. But given that you are Valencia, a potential problem is that you may often not be in a position to play on counter-attacks because most sides will look to play defensively against you. So it's quite possible that you will have to find some middle ground between counter-attacking and control/possession football.

Thanks for the response. The Mezzala - BBM swap, is this because I have an IF/a on the same side as a Mez?

How would you find this middle ground? Playing a general possession game + counter and counter-pressing?

[Experienced Defender]

On 08/06/2019 at 10:21, TheJanitor said:

The Mezzala - BBM swap, is this because I have an IF/a on the same side as a Mez?

Yes. Because mezzala is more attack-minded role than BBM, so playing on the same side as the attack-duty IF can leave the flank a bit more vulnerable than it would be advisable. An alternative would be to give the RB more conservative role (FBsu or (I)WBde for example).

 

On 08/06/2019 at 10:21, TheJanitor said:

How would you find this middle ground? Playing a general possession game + counter and counter-pressing?

That's the style I like to call "progressive possession" (as opposed to slow, patient and somewhat boring possession football), which I prefer to use when managing good teams. It contains elements of possession football such as play out of defence, work ball into box (and sometimes shorter passing), but also those of a rather counter-attacking style, such as higher tempo, counter, a couple more attack duties (and sometimes be more expressive, pass into space...). Counter-pressing is not necessary for this style (basically depends on your formation and players' overall abilities).

An example of slow patient possession tactic:

DLFsu

APsu                                       IFsu

CMat     DLPsu

DMde

FBsu     CDde     CDde     WBsu

GKde

Positive / shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box / hold shape, distribute to CBs and FBs, counter-press / higher DL, (much) higher LOE, prevent short GKD, use offside trap

An example of progressive possession tactic:

F9

IFsu                                       Wat

MEZat     DLPsu

HB

IWBsu     BPDde   CDde     WBsu

SKsu

Positive / play out of defence, higher tempo, work ball into box, be more expressive, overlap right (and sometimes pass into space)/ counter, counter-press / higher DL, standard LOE, use offside trap

[summatsupeer]

On 07/06/2019 at 23:06, TheJanitor said:

Hello. I'm currently playing with Valencia. Starting without the first window, I want to get the best of the existing squad and I like the idea of playing Rodrigo and Guedes out wide. Both are very pacy, with solid dribbling and off the ball movement.

I opted to play 433 with two inside forwards:

I like the roles selection here, but I'm not sure about instructions and need a bit inspiration. Like I mentioned, I want to exploit Rodrigo and Guedes as my key attackers and I think about playing more directly and on the break, but I'm still not sure about how the approach the instructions.

In that CM pair, i'd prefer to have the better defensive player of the two on the side behind the IF-A, since he will do less defending whilst the IF-S will drop more into line with the MCL and help him more.

If you aren't sure what instructions to use, i'd keep things simple and see if they do what you want without adding anything.  I'd probably add Counter Attack since that will use the pace of your forwards when its available and create more direct attacks without forcing it when its not available.

Against most team i'd probably start on Positive then its a question of seeing if each phase (attacking, transition, defensive) do what you want.  Consider if the players are good at what your asking them, for example Play Out Of Defence with CBs who are bad with the ball is risky.  Always remember the mentality your on, a Slower Tempo on Positive is probably still quicker than on Balanced, don't get mislead by terminology, judge it on what you see.

Against the biggest clubs you might want to be a bit safer and rely on those counter attacks more, lowering mentality and playing more of a Counter Fluid style.

[TheJanitor]

@Experienced Defender

In your progressive posseion tactic, wouldn't you feel it will be more beneficial to overlap the left side? I'm asking because the high winger on the right would probably leave less room to overlap than the IF/s, and it can create nice variety with the IWB.

Other than this, thanks. I like this combination of instructions and I think I will use it as a basis for my tactic.

Also, about the HB/d, doesn't it only works with wingbacks in the WB starta? Or is it fine this year?

@summatsupeer

Do you not feel like swapping the midfielders can make my team a bit disjointed in attack? No one near that IF/a who can offer support and runs to create space for him.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

In your progressive posseion tactic, wouldn't you feel it will be more beneficial to overlap the left side?

The reason why I would not use the overlap on the left is the attacking mezzala, so I don't want the LB to be more attack-minded and thus leave the flank overly exposed. It would be more beneficial only from the attacking perspective, but would leave the left flank overly exposed. With a mezzala on attack and IF, I already have enough attacking force on that side, so the LB needs to be more conservative (IMHO). 

 

4 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

I'm asking because the high winger on the right would probably leave less room to overlap than the IF/s, and it can create nice variety with the IWB.

Precisely because the RW is on attack and RB on support - plus a holding midfielder (DLP) is also on that side - I opted for the overlap right. I generally do not use an overlap TI primarily in order to create actual overlaps - although they will occasionally happen - but rather in order to reduce the difference between the individual mentalities of a support or defend-duty  fullback/wing-back and his attack-duty wide forward/wide midfielder, so that I could get more dynamic interplay on that flank. 

 

4 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

Also, about the HB/d, doesn't it only works with wingbacks in the WB starta? Or is it fine this year?

@summatsupeer

For me personally HB works in any configuration. In my Southampton save, I play Romeu as HB and Lemina as volante in a system without either fullbacks or wing-backs (my only wide players are wide midfielders). 

[summatsupeer]

14 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

Do you not feel like swapping the midfielders can make my team a bit disjointed in attack? No one near that IF/a who can offer support and runs to create space for him

He has a WB-S overlapping already and wants to carry the ball forward where there's a DLF-A.  I think having a player not looking to run forward as often should help balance that side.

Giving him some space inside isnt a bad thing when he wants to run with the ball and cut inside, hopefully he beats his FB and causes havoc.  In final third when a MEZ-S will make most of his runs, is that needed or even space for it between a DLF-A and IF-A?

When there is a counter it won't matter what the roles + duties are. If you want him being more patient and combining with the midfield more when there isnt a counter opportunity I'd make him support duty rather than making the midfield too attacking, unless the front 3 change to create space inside rather than them all attacking similar area.

[wixxi]

On 10/06/2019 at 08:55, summatsupeer said:

He has a WB-S overlapping already and wants to carry the ball forward where there's a DLF-A.  I think having a player not looking to run forward as often should help balance that side.

Giving him some space inside isnt a bad thing when he wants to run with the ball and cut inside, hopefully he beats his FB and causes havoc.  In final third when a MEZ-S will make most of his runs, is that needed or even space for it between a DLF-A and IF-A?

When there is a counter it won't matter what the roles + duties are. If you want him being more patient and combining with the midfield more when there isnt a counter opportunity I'd make him support duty rather than making the midfield too attacking, unless the front 3 change to create space inside rather than them all attacking similar area.

I would have thought the duties would matter in a counter since it's a case of committing players to a transition (so more players on support rather than defend to commit more men to the counter) or am I wrong?

[summatsupeer]

17 minutes ago, wixxi said:

I would have thought the duties would matter in a counter since it's a case of committing players to a transition (so more players on support rather than defend to commit more men to the counter) or am I wrong?

The game has triggers to start an all out counter attack which means the players ignore there roles and duties and basically go full risk+direct+tempo etc.  You need the right formation, roles, duties, instructions ect to create situations that will trigger counter attacks.  Explained better here: https://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/444680-The-Art-of-Counter-Attacking.

Simplest thing to demonstrate my point is look at the games Fluid Counter and Direct Counter.  Both are setup to counter, but when a triggered counter isn't available they move the ball differently.  Then there's "Route One" which is kind of an extreme version of Direct and trying to force counter attacks even when the triggered one isn't available.

 

[wixxi]

23 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

The game has triggers to start an all out counter attack which means the players ignore there roles and duties and basically go full risk+direct+tempo etc.  You need the right formation, roles, duties, instructions ect to create situations that will trigger counter attacks.  Explained better here: https://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/444680-The-Art-of-Counter-Attacking.

Simplest thing to demonstrate my point is look at the games Fluid Counter and Direct Counter.  Both are setup to counter, but when a triggered counter isn't available they move the ball differently.  Then there's "Route One" which is kind of an extreme version of Direct and trying to force counter attacks even when the triggered one isn't available.

 

Ah I see, I was under the impression that Fluid Counter and Direct Counter served to change the way the team counters rather than just being how they play when the counter isn't on. Thanks for clearing that up