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Earnie is God!

To Plug & Play, or not to Plug & Play, that is the question

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Posted (edited)

Well I didn't really use too much DL tactics, but i know how frustrating it can be to create your own tactic especially if you want implement a certain style or philosophy of play.

I can just hand you the properbly best ever written an complete guide to FM.  (suggest to DL the PDF)

Also I can just suggest you to really start from scratch. Sometimes i catch my self starting a new safe or joining a new team, open the tactics editor an click man of the nice buttons without really thinking about the team and players i have. I always had a good time when first thinking of my defensive shape and then opt in the duties and roles to create my offensive style of play. After then watching the test games i make general adjustments as Defensive style and passing.

Edited by CARRERA

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39 minutes ago, Earnie is God! said:

First off, I have a confession to make.
[stands up]: "Hi, my name is Dean and I'm a Plug & Playaholic."

I should say, however, that I'm not suggesting there is a right or wrong way to play your game.
If you want to create/do everything yourself (not just tactics but training, scouting and everything in between) that's fine, and if you prefer to use Plug & Play tactics, using someone else's training schedules, scouting shortlists, etc. that's perfectly OK too.
Instead, I'm going to concentrate on tactics and attempt to show the disparity between creating your own and using Plug & Play, and why I believe this has caused so many problems for people, especially in FM19. It may also go some way to explain why there have been a number of arguments on these forums between people on one side who believe the game to be 'broken' and those on the other who insist it isn't.
I'm not saying this is something I have researched for weeks or months on end, and I'm in no way an expert. This is just my opinion from what I have experienced in FM19.

OK, here goes...

There are essentially two types of tactic:
1) one you create yourself, with or without a little help, using logic with your formation, player roles and instructions, etc., trying to fit everything in neatly in a sensible approach and
2) a plug and play tactic that someone else has created to try and exploit certain weaknesses in the ME

I think now more than ever, due to the ever increasing complexities within the game, more people are opting for the simpler plug and play option and these tactics are easy to find and plentiful in supply. Not only on here but on a number of other websites, with numerous 'testing tables' where someone has tried out all of these tactics over the course of a season, generally using one top team and one underdog.
Now, with just a few clicks, you can see which of these have performed the best, take that tactic (or a few of them if you like) and just stick them into your save.

I've been guilty of doing that on occasion (or most of the time) too but perhaps that's just because I can be very lazy :p

What you will probably find with most of these plug and play style tactics is that, from a logical point of view, they don't actually make much sense.
A lot of them will tell you to do all the things you probably shouldn't but because they end up working, very few people care about the whys and the wherefores.

A perfect example of this is if we look at one of the main issues with this year's version: long shots and the high percentage of goals scored from them, and this thread (to start with at least) is going to concentrate on that.
What you are likely to find is a very different approach between Plug & Play and what you might expect would work.

First, we'll assess the logical approach.
To help cut down on these long shot opportunities, using a DM can be very effective. You can possibly go without one if your CMs are up to the task but it's not easy finding the right ones, especially on a budget.

Part of the problem is the correlation between your defensive line and your line of engagement. If these are too far apart, you will become too stretched and open to exploitation with all the space you are leaving between your midfielders and defenders. This can become disastrous when you consider the strength of long shots in FM19, especially if you don't employ a DM.
Going the other way and bunching up too much (higher defensive line and lower LOE) might put more pressure on your opponents to try and prevent the long shots but this can create different problems, especially if you don't have quick defenders, as not only are you allowing your opponents to move up the pitch with freedom, you are also susceptible to the balls over the top or behind your defence, with little pressure to prevent them.

If you have your fullbacks on attack duty, or even support if they also have PI's of get further forward, etc you are leaving yourself even more exposed.
Add in the Counter-press, which seems very popular this year, and the Prevent GK Distribution, and this can become a nightmare as you will have 6 players high up the pitch, your two fullbacks pushing up too, and a massive gap in the middle of the park for your two CBs to deal with.

To prevent all this mayhem, you are probably looking at going with a more balanced (or positive) approach, with both your defensive line and LOE quite similar, avoiding the extremes, and probably not pushing right up with both either. Perhaps go with a DM or, at worst, a holding CM who doesn't have the 'gets further forward' trait.
Rather than use Counter-press, which would see your midfielders and strikers all pushing forward to try and win the ball back and leave all that space behind them, you might employ a few player instructions instead, but use them sparingly. Being sensible about it, using these PIs only for your most forward players.

But when you look at Plug & Play, I find that the majority go with what the likes of @Rashidi would call a 'Suicide Press'.
Things you are likely to see in a number of Plug & Play tactics:

  • Attacking Mentality
  • Higher or Much Higher Defensive Line
  • Higher or Much Higher LOE
  • Counter-Press
  • Counter
  • Prevent GK Distribution
  • Extremely Urgent Pressing

And a lot of the time, they use a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 formation so there is next to no cover at all at the back.
On the face of it, this looks absolutely nuts but, for whatever reason, a lot of these tactics work and work well.
Some of these tactics also have the throw-in and corner exploits built in to take even more of an advantage.

Using Plug & Play.

When we first buy the game, a lot of us just want to dive right in. We don't want to be spending ages trying to design a tactic to suit our players or our philosophy, we just want to play, right? So what do we do? We take the easy option and go look for a Plug & Play tactic that someone has created because these guys have been around for years and we know they have come up with some unbelievably good tactics before. I'm talking about people like @knap, @Mr U Rosler@Totalfootballfan, @FuSS, etc who have all been there, done that.
We take on their tactics without question, try them out and stick with the ones that work best for us. We don't worry about how or why they work, only that they work.

4-4-2 is very popular with the Plug & Players this year, just like 3-4-3 (no strikers) was in FM17 (I didn't play 18).

But here is the crux of the problem.

(if this does not apply to you, just substitute every 'we' for 'I' as this is how I have often felt in FM19)
The majority of these tactics have the 'suicide press' combination listed above, or at least most of them, but what happens if we want to wean ourselves off these Plug & Play tactics and create our own? Maybe we now have time to do something ourselves, perhaps we have managed to figure out our philosophy, or we just want something a little different.
Where do we start? Well, we'd probably look at what has worked for us so far (i.e. 'suicide press') and try and tweak it. I mean, why wouldn't we? It's worked so far, right?
And this is when the problems really begin. Most of these d/l tactics work as they are, that's the point. Somehow, the combination of things in them makes them work, but changing even the smallest thing can see them fall apart and we become frustrated.

Perhaps the long shot issue comes to the fore, maybe the poor defensive heading is now more prevalent. We don't know, or even sometimes care, why it's happening, we just hate that it is and we fail to understand why.
We might watch some Bustthenet videos and see that what is being explained there is very different to how we have been playing the game so far and to try and understand and implement everything is just too much to take in. We don't get how our team can overachieve one season with Plug & Play and fail the next with our own tactic.

We head to the forums and see that plenty of other people are having similar issues and so we add our own little experience of it there too. There are, of course, a lot of others who have not experienced these problems. We become annoyed when they tell us we are moaning without reason or 'proof' and the conversation descends into a heated exchange.
----------------------------------------
All of this has happened to me this year and I'll add more details shortly but, for the time being...
"My name is Dean and I'm a Plug & Playaholic. Thank you for listening." [sits down]

Jeezo mate, what a read and you pretty much described me there! I had plans to delete all p&p tactics from my save (currently in year 26/27) and build my own from scratch. Needless to say, that never happened. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread, thanks mate.

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At times playing FM19, I have felt stupid and there is nothing I hate more than feeling stupid.

In my first season managing Cardiff, we finished 6th in the EPL. We were expected to finish 20th. We also beat Spurs in the League Cup final and qualified for the Europa League. I used a Plug & Play tactic.
In my second season, we finished 10th. We were expected to finish 16th and the board would have been happy with a mid-table finish so we slightly overachieved. We also had a decent run in the Europa League, winning our group before being knocked out by Freiburg in the 1st knockout stage.
During this 2nd season, I tried tweaking a couple of Plug & Play tactics and ended up in trouble. We scored fewer goals and conceded a hell of a lot more. When things started going wrong, I basically panicked. I tried different tactics, chopping and changing all the time, tweaking this, altering that, and it was just awful.
After watching Ajax and their successes this season, and realising that their attacking style of play was in just about every Plug & Play tactic I've seen this year, and how effective an IW or IF can be in FM19, I tried to implement the way they play into my save and it worked... for four games. Thankfully, one of those games was away at Man U where we won 4-2 (although we were 4-0 up) so it was pleasing to see that but the problem I had (without realising it was a problem) was that I was still partly using the 'suicide press' that these Plug & Play tactics had taught me was successful. We'd get away with it in a few games but get slaughtered in others.

We saw the season out and I decided that enough was enough. Yes, those Plug & Play tactics would be there if I ever felt the need to use them again, and to try not to tweak them next time!, but I wasn't happy with all the long shots and poor defensive heading that I had seen throughout my first two seasons.... and yes, complained about in the feedback thread.

So off to the forums I went, looking for possible reasons and some much needed help and I came across a thread from someone I hadn't really seen before...
@Experienced Defender's 

And suddenly it all made sense.

 

Experienced Defender showed how the 'suicide press' style of play that was used in so many of these Plug & Play tactics can leave you completely exposed (why it wasn't obvious to me, I can only blame on my laziness to not look into how these tactics were fully laid out). If you have so many players pushing forward, there will be next to no cover at the back and so your opponents can fire in all these long shots without a great deal of pressure.
And although the poor defensive heading is still an issue in FM19, where defenders just head the ball back to the opposition even when there is no danger around them, this is made far worse if half your team is caught up the pitch trying to close down your opponents. This means your midfielders have little chance of getting back in time to win these 2nd balls so you are going to notice it a lot more if your defenders just head it straight back to the other team.
Thirdly, using tight marking when both my defensive line and LOE are pushed right up is also asking for trouble.

As I mentioned earlier, I didn't play FM18, so all of these tactical options such as counter-pressing, defensive line, LOE, etc were all new to me. I never really looked into them before. I mean I knew what they were but just didn't really bother to consider the consequences of getting the settings wrong. Reading that thread by Experienced Defender gave me a new understanding of what it was all about and how to combine them successfully.

Right then. Let's scrap everything and start again.

Having already brought in a number of players in my 1st two seasons, I decided that the only addition to the squad this 3rd season would be a GK. I stopped letting my DoF bid for new players which, believe me, was a very tough decision as I do love a bargain player and hate to think I'm missing out on a great addition to the squad.
But yes, our GK situation. Alex Smithies had been decent but we could do with better, especially as my backup GK was average at best. Aston Villa had just been relegated and their GK Lovre Kalinic was available at a knockdown price (yup, still love a bargain!) and after being rebuffed by newly promoted Stoke over Jack Butland, Kalinic seemed the next best available, so in he came.

Apart from that, I was going to work with what we had. So how did I want us to set up? We have two very good IF's who had performed very well so far and I didn't want to change that. This would probably mean selling Andy Carroll (another bargain buy last season). He was actually our top scorer in Europe but hardly played in the league and we were even less likely to use a TM this coming season if we weren't going to employ wingers or (probably) an AM either. Looking at my squad, AFs, CFs or Poachers might not be ideal either so we were probably looking at an F9 or DLF really.

Now I definitely want to work with a DM. If, at a later stage, I find that I can go without one and not suffer badly with long shot opportunities then fine but, for the time being at least, a DM is in. I see that the HB role still isn't working quite as it should, mainly in the transition phase as the CBs remain too spread out, so I will have to think about the right role for the right player I have. For the time being, a basic DM will be fine.
That would probably mean having two CMs ahead of the DM and a back four so it looks like I'm heading for a 4-1-2-3 DM Wide formation.

It's a popular formation so I knew there would be plenty of others who had used it and used it well so I drifted back to the forums to take another look. Stumbled across this one from @sporadicsmiles 

Another excellent read and already a lot of similarities to how I wish to set my team up too. I'm not sure I want the style of play to be the same, partly due to not quite having the players to do it, but will definitely implement some of the ideas in there because they suit the players I have.
I might switch my right sided IF to become a Treq or RMD as I'm a little concerned about having two IFs, especially if the opponents have DMs, not sure the space will be there to move into. Verdi isn't exactly suited to be a winger but he can do that job so that's another option but will leave him as an IF and see how we go.

20190519235825_1_cr.thumb.jpg.686d0492214949a37a5528325461d904.jpg

This is how I've started our 3rd season. Gagliardini is more of a Box to Box midfielder but has been switched to DM, at least for now. Using a DM is a major change for us.
But the biggest changes have come with the TIs. Positive instead of Attacking for starters and only elements of pressing here rather than the 'suicide press' used before.

It's early days using this so far but I have noticed some major changes.
Negatives: We seem to be taking too many shots from outside the box, aren't scoring that many goals overall and have conceded some stupid goals so far. To combat our lack of goals and too many shots from outside the box, I've just changed our B2B midfielder to a CM(A) to try and give more support and options rather than to just blindly shoot. May try a MEZ(A) instead, not quite sure yet. Also having the two IFs might just encourage them to cut inside and shoot too often. I'll tinker with it and see.

Positives: Our possession percentages are up, we create plenty of chances and don't give up many chances to our opponents either.
Also two main positive differences and one of the main reasons for creating this thread in the first place...
1) opposition do not get many opportunities to shoot from distance
2) very few occasions when we see poor defensive heading

Employing a DM certainly seems to help against long shots and not being so gung-ho also appears to vastly reduce the examples of really bad defensive heading.

When we compare that to your typical Plug & Play, it's such a big difference with the two highlighted issues above. Perhaps that is why we have ended up with a lot of people complaining about these two things yet a lot of others stating that it really isn't a problem. Maybe the 'suicide press' that so many Plug & Play tactics have simply accentuates the problem and those that don't use them rarely see these issues.

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@CARRERA, that thread looks familiar. I'm sure I've read it before but probably a long time ago.
I need to get some sleep but will check it out tomorrow. Thanks

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Interesting thread. Its nice to see someone neatly articulate that perspective about the game.

FM can have a lot of layers and sometimes the more deeply you look into things the more rabbit holes you find to fall down.  There are a few things which posters seem to find obligatory to tick every year.  Pressing, work ball into box and possession all coupled this year with high lines and counter-press.  These seem to be tactical staples but then you get the threads about why does the AI counterattack me so effectively or why does the AI park the bus?  The answer of course to both is partly buried in the way nearly everyone looks to play.

My other minor frustration relates to roles.  I think their importance is overplayed out.  Hard to put that into words other than saying too often it seems that FM is like a jigsaw where the pieces only fit exactly right if laid down a certain way.  E.g. that role needs to be a wingback but only on a support role otherwise this and that will or won't happen.  Its a bit much at times.

Anyway good luck with the topic.  It'll be interesting to see what the other responses bring you. 

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11 hours ago, parsdaft1982 said:

And this is when the problems really begin. Most of these d/l tactics work as they are, that's the point. Somehow, the combination of things in them makes them work, but changing even the smallest thing can see them fall apart and we become frustrated.

I think this point illustrates perfectly the differing philosophy in the two ways of playing the game. As a preface I never use downloaded tactics, although I do look through them from time to time to see what the current trends are. I have nothing against people who use downloaded tactics though, people can play the game as they wish. Having covered by backside, let me try to explain by first sentence.

What you describe in the quoted section is called an unstable equilibrium in science language. I am a scientist so this is how I automatically thing when I see something like that. Think of it as a hill. You can rest a ball on top of a hill. It is at rest and in equilibrium. This is the PnP tactic. It works as it is, it is on top of the hill. However, if you move away from the initial settings - move the ball slightly to one side - you roll off the hill. Small changes have dramatic (and usually negative in this metaphor) effects. These tactics are typically exploiting some aspect of the match engine. This year it is hyper aggressive pressing, and IWB paired with BBM to flood the middle. Clearly this works, but it does so because of limitations in the game. If you move away from those limitations, it stops working. Our ball rolls down the hill and we drown in a our own tears of frustration.

Now, you have a totally different scenario when you build a tactic based on football logic rather than match engine issues. My analogy is not going to be perfect here, and it will get clunky, but lets try it. Assume you design a well thought out tactic, which is based around using your common sense (we have lots of excellent examples of that on these forums). The ball now sits in a little valley. If you make small changes, the ball will roll around, but it will always end up close to the bottom of the valley again. That is my imperfect way of saying that small changes will not have a huge effect. A better way would be to imagine that there are a whole bunch of valleys, and you can roll the ball around them, but it will always stay close to a good spot.

Okay, I am going to ditch my terrible metaphor now. If your tactic is initially based around a solid football concept, then it will be robust to small changes. They will affect it, but it is unlikely a minor change will cause all your performances to collapse. It will also be able to be directly used in any FM engine (I have not changed the way I play the game in a long time, bar experimenting with things). This is clearly not true for most PnP tactics, which change year after year. In that respect, it is always worthwhile learning to make your own tactics. In fact, the best argument for creating your own tactics if you can implement your own vision of how football should be played. On the flip side, if you just want to win games, sign players and get trophies, then PnP is definitely the way to go. It entirely depends what you want to get from the game. And that will likely change over time.

30 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

There are a few things which posters seem to find obligatory to tick every year.  Pressing, work ball into box and possession all coupled this year with high lines and counter-press.

I think that is just because these styles are in fashion, and produce attractive football in real life. Nobody really wants to be Tony Pulis, no matter how effective he is.

 

30 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Hard to put that into words other than saying too often it seems that FM is like a jigsaw where the pieces only fit exactly right if laid down a certain way.  E.g. that role needs to be a wingback but only on a support role otherwise this and that will or won't happen.  Its a bit much at times. 

I definitely agree with you on this. As long as you have a good reason for a role, it can work. I play with a FB(A) behind a IF(A), and a FB(A) behind a W(S). Both of these would often be considered a no-no for various reasons to some guides you read. However, I have good reasons for playing like that, and it works. I think people like rules, especially when things are as complicated as FM.

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6 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Nobody really wants to be Tony Pulis, no matter how effective he is

Don't be so sure :D

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Posted (edited)

Story is he's about to nail the Juventus job :) I'd love to play like TP and Big Sam...but to the topic .

I create my tactics based on non-exploits, football logic and my own footballing vision. It's the easiest, least time consuming and effective way to go. My time is limited so I don't want to be tweaking all day like a real football manager and so Plug N Play is the only approach I can take playing this game.

Well my view is that most successful teams nowadays in world football will play with a distinct philosophy and systems designed to press high up the pitch. Counter-pressing especially is also becoming very popular.

Each one of those players in that system would need to fit into it. In order to achieve that, you need to identify attributes of players that suit the roles and system, and further have the funds to assemble the squad necessary. Don't disregard PPMs either, as if a player has something working against your style, it will significantly render the tactic less effective.

If winning trophies is your objective like those teams irl,  then you will need a squad of players of excellent ability and backup players that will be able to do a job filling in the particular roles in your system and philosophy. There is no other way, not if you want to compete consistently anyway. I can't see Leicester City ever happening again.

Probably the best examples for an extended duration of success were SAF and Arsene Wenger. Although the later failed in his later years, that's because instead of having a combative midfielder in Viera, he wanted an Ozil like player to replace that position instead. to go with an Ozil higher up the pitch. Not a smart move at all and I really have no idea what he was thinking.

There's less of a need to tweak playing in this Plug n Play way - and if you have a really strong plan A no need at all. Expect to lose some games during the year because you can't play well every game, but as long as you have the players fitting the system you'll still have successful seasons. I enjoy watching my teams play my style of football achieving decent success and it's what gives me my satisfaction in this game.

Additionally in modern day football, teams expected to lose will park the bus. This means if you're wanting to win trophies you'll need to maximise your possession or recycle possession quickly and well, and have skilled technical creative players to unlock these teams that are happy to take a point all day long. 

The only way to achieve this is with a high pressing tactic and by playing at a higher tempo to unsettle the opposition's defence, or by taking a more patient creative approach trying to open gaps and constantly probe their defensive line.

However if you don't have good enough players to break these teams down - they will simply hoof the ball over your back-line and score on the counter, just like irl. So it's imperative you have enough quality or the game will punish you. If you don't, you have to play a smarter and more reactive style that will require more in-game tweaking to dig out a result. 

And so on the flip-side, you have the TP and Big Sam styles. And with the above, that's probably why you will not find many negative tactics about. The best you'll ever be able to hope for with this style is a mid-table finish, maybe a Euro Spot if you've had an extraordinary year. However a plug and play should work okay in the lower leagues. ED is probably the man there to conjure something up. But more in-game tweaking would be required as you probably won't have a squad capable of playing in one distinct style where it may be more prudent to go more gung-ho in games you fall behind in or more defensive to hold onto a lead.

But yes it does seem the game's getting harder each year if taking a non-exploit and a footballing approach. I'm just about keeping up with it all,..

Edited by BJT

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Agreed.
One of the main reasons for starting this thread is to show how much of a difference there is between P&P and Create Your Own, not just in this year's version but for many years now, and how that can cause such problems for those who want to move away from P&P.

The issues that I, and I'm sure many others have faced, are not just to do with trying to understand how everything works, or at least should work, but the transition from using what we have seen work so well in P&P to the foundation of a solid tactic you create yourself.

As a lazy and rather impatient person, persisting with a tactic I've created has proved to be very difficult if things are not going very well. I'll probably tinker with it here and there to try and combat any issues and, unlike with P&P tactics, that's not necessarily a bad thing as things are less likely to suddenly fall apart.

But the temptation is always there to simply go back to a P&P tactic that I know has worked far better. It's just too easy to do that. I have mainly used these tactics for years and I have seen us, generally an underdog team, beat the best teams in the World. I've taken Ilkeston Town from the depths of non league football to the EPL in successive seasons and seen us qualify for Europe. Our opening game in the CL was a 4-2 win over Real Madrid! Sure, we didn't qualify from the group in the end but so what, this is Ilkeston Town!

Because I've experienced these dizzy heights, it's so difficult to be satisfied with a mid-table finish should I decide to create a tactic of my own, even though mid-table would be a fantastic achievement for a side like Cardiff (who I generally decide to manage). Not only would it be more than just a bit of a disappointment for me to be just mid-table mediocrity, try telling the board that after qualifying for Europe one season, you'll be aiming not to get relegated the next. That wouldn't even be an option they would give you. So the fear factor sets in and once you go down the P&P road, it's so difficult to play any other way. I don't want to be sacked, especially not by the club I have supported for 25+ years.

This has, I'm sad to say, made me go back to P&P this 3rd season with Cardiff. My own tactic had its flaws, and flaws that I couldn't really see. For whatever reason, it just didn't work well enough. We'd have plenty of possession and create numerous chances but not score enough. On top of that, we'd concede daft goals too often. I played about with the defensive line, player roles in midfield and up top but it wasn't working. The fans were turning against me and the board was not happy. My own fault, of course, after our successes in seasons one and two. But I don't want the sack, would seem such a waste of all the hours I've already put into the game and the squad I've built.

So I succumbed and went back to P&P :(

I think the only way I'm going to steer clear of P&P is with a fresh start on a new save, or at a new club, and right now I don't feel I can do that.

My name is Dean and I'm a Plug and Playaholic.

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1 hour ago, Earnie is God! said:

As a lazy and rather impatient person, persisting with a tactic I've created has proved to be very difficult if things are not going very well. I'll probably tinker with it here and there to try and combat any issues and, unlike with P&P tactics, that's not necessarily a bad thing as things are less likely to suddenly fall apart.

But the temptation is always there to simply go back to a P&P tactic that I know has worked far better. It's just too easy to do that. I have mainly used these tactics for years and I have seen us, generally an underdog team, beat the best teams in the World. I've taken Ilkeston Town from the depths of non league football to the EPL in successive seasons and seen us qualify for Europe. Our opening game in the CL was a 4-2 win over Real Madrid! Sure, we didn't qualify from the group in the end but so what, this is Ilkeston Town!

This is 100% me! If I create a tactic, and it works all is good with the world. As soon as I start to under perform, I head straight back PnP tactic and end up staying with it as it is bringing me success. 

In my current save 2025/26, I have just moved to Watford after dominating Scottish football with Aberdeen using a PnP tactic. At the start of the save, I was using my own 442 and 4411, but after patches etc, my tactic started to under perform and I needed a quick fix. Hello PnP. I'm still using the same tactic I been using the last 4 seasons!

My name is Chris, and I'm a Plug and Playaholic

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4 hours ago, Earnie is God! said:

Because I've experienced these dizzy heights, it's so difficult to be satisfied with a mid-table finish should I decide to create a tactic of my own, even though mid-table would be a fantastic achievement for a side like Cardiff (who I generally decide to manage). Not only would it be more than just a bit of a disappointment for me to be just mid-table mediocrity, 

Fortunately for me I've never really been into LLM. I've never liked the idea of using a tactic that exploits the game, and I'll only ever use a tactic I have created from scratch. Otherwise it defeats the object for me and I'd felt like I'd have achieved nothing. But don't get me wrong, if you're struggling to create something it is a good idea to try and download ideally a non-exploited tactic and try to learn from it.

Though as a result, I've never experienced that type of success you have had before and I don't generally have the patience to play such a long game. Although for the first time I  got myself to do that having played with Ayr United and ended up dominating Scottish football winning the CL a few times. I can certainly say too that the game seems geared to a 442 this year.

But point is I guess it's all relative to what you expect and have experienced. I'd be over the moon finishing mid-table with Cardiff within the first few years. That for me is substantially overachieving and at that point as long as you're smart with your transfers you can really start to kick on and then play the type of football that you want to play and compete  with the big clubs.

My advice would be to always be realistic in your goals, especially as the game continues to develop to try and replicate real life football. And then naturally look to progress from here, like any real football club would.

 

 

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1 hour ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

I've learnt more about football from FM than I ever could from even watching loads of games

Me too. And on top of that, thanks to FM I started watching real-life football matches not purely for the sake of entertainment, but also - and perhaps even more - from an analytical perspective. Which in turn has helped me with creating FM tactics.

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9 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

 I urge everyone to go cold turkey with Plug and lay

Oh I want too, and I probably will, at the end of my current season.... 

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Perhaps there isn't that much of a difference this year between P&P and Create Your Own after all.

Rashidi did talk about this 'suicide press' and the problems it can cause in a video he made a month or so ago but then I find out, thanks to knap, Rashidi's favourite and most successful tactic he made this year, Liquid 2.0, has most of those things that he said you shouldn't combine.

  • Very Attacking
  • Counter-Press
  • Higher Defensive Line
  • Higher LOE
  • Prevent Short GK Distribution

OK, so he does use a DM in that one which will help but still. This has just confused me further.

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1 minute ago, Earnie is God! said:

Perhaps there isn't that much of a difference this year between P&P and Create Your Own after all.

Rashidi did talk about this 'suicide press' and the problems it can cause in a video he made a month or so ago but then I find out, thanks to knap, Rashidi's favourite and most successful tactic he made this year, Liquid 2.0, has most of those things that he said you shouldn't combine.

  • Very Attacking
  • Counter-Press
  • Higher Defensive Line
  • Higher LOE
  • Prevent Short GK Distribution

OK, so he does use a DM in that one which will help but still. This has just confused me further.

Rashidi has never said that you should not combine these 5 things you listed above (or at least I cannot remember him saying that, and I am someone who has been watching all his videos since FM18).

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idk, there might be a general thing with pressing going on at FM. havent seen a "low perssing tactic" for quite a while. There are some with a balanced pressing mentality, but most of them do either use a high press or at least counterpress.

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After reading this post,I can tell you that you shouldn't worry to much about P&P, because in real life most managers kinda just use tactics or strategies that are or were effective in football.

One of the problems in FM that can't be fixed is that the manager never do his job alone,he always get a coaching staff that helps him around,tactics included, and this staffs usually have several ideas that together creates a tactic,and most of their ideas came from other managers that originally created them, so they are "copying". Unfortunally for us FM tactic and match engine are too limited, and players can't create anything too original,neither replicate with maestry some of the top tactics in todays tactical trends (guardiola city for exemple), so just P&P what works in the realm of FM is as acceptable as creating your own.

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I really should go back to downloading tactics as my own are useless, but I refuse to go back. Ultimately it looks like I'm going quit FM, as I just don't have the patience for it when it comes to tactics. I'm still stuck in my test save cycle where I play FM Touch and try to come up with a solid tactic that I don't have to tweak much each game but it doesn't seem possible to me. It's a shame as I used to love FM even when using downloaded tactics but now I would feel guilty using them. I love all the other aspects of the game, I just don't like the tactical aspect which is kinda important..lol.

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12 hours ago, CARRERA said:

idk, there might be a general thing with pressing going on at FM. havent seen a "low perssing tactic" for quite a while. There are some with a balanced pressing mentality, but most of them do either use a high press or at least counterpress.

I frequently use a low press medium block tactic when playing against bigger sides, without a counter press. It is based around frustrating the opposition into a mistake and counter attacking. It works pretty well, so these things are possible. Heck, I can even take pleasure from watching it sometimes. There are some serious downsides to pressing that I wish the AI were better able to exploit. When I face a high block and have decent players in defense, I find that it is easy to take out half a team and start a counter if using the correct style of play. Typically to distribute to defenders but let them have freedom to play the ball long as well as short. If the AI was as good at exploiting this, people would press a lot less hard. There is also the fact that pressing football is in vogue right now. Most of the most attractive sides to watch play a high pressing game with a frantic pace. Liverpool being the obvious example of a side playing attractive pressing football. People prefer to emulate this to more defensive approaches.

9 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I really should go back to downloading tactics as my own are useless, but I refuse to go back. Ultimately it looks like I'm going quit FM, as I just don't have the patience for it when it comes to tactics. I'm still stuck in my test save cycle where I play FM Touch and try to come up with a solid tactic that I don't have to tweak much each game but it doesn't seem possible to me. It's a shame as I used to love FM even when using downloaded tactics but now I would feel guilty using them. I love all the other aspects of the game, I just don't like the tactical aspect which is kinda important..lol.

Play however you want, and do not feel guilty about it. If you are more interested in the winning, the signing players and the joy of getting trophies, really do not feel guilty about downloading tactics. Honestly, I think a lot of people tend to look down on this, but there is no point. If you do not enjoy making tactics then you do not enjoy making tactics. So play how you do enjoy. To echo this sentiment

24 minutes ago, masno said:

so just P&P what works in the realm of FM is as acceptable as creating your own. 

I think it depends what you want from the game. If you want to buy players and watch your side win trophies without worrying about the tactical side, PnP is perfect. If you want to get stuck in with creating a tactical style and love that sort of challenge, creating your own tactics is fine. I mean people who create tactics take ideas from others all the time anyway. It is why we have massive threads where we discuss other people's tactical visions. And watch YouTube channels like that of Rashidi to glean some insight. As others discussed above as well, designing my own tactics has changed how I watch football in real life too. I am now also looking at things from a tactical point of view, understanding what the players are doing and why. It gives me a great deal of pleasure.

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Posted (edited)

@sporadicsmiles Yep, I dislike creating tactics but I can't bring myself to download any again as the success then wouldn't feel like my own. I don't think it would be enjoyable either (although it used to be). On the other hand, it's not enjoyable being so inconsistent because of my useless tactics.

Edited by Gee_Simpson

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Thinking about it i think there are two types of Plug and Play tactics and I have different reactions to both:

1) There are the game breakers, the ones that look to work against how the ME interprets the game and exploit its weaknesses. Those tactics with uber levels of pressing and 3 AFs and attacking mentality, that the game simple cannot handle. These tactics make me feel very sad and I don't know how anyone can garner any satisfaction from winning with them. I feel like I could buy a team full of Eric Djemba-Djembas and still win those tactics, so its almost not worth playing. They also prevent me from understanding the game or even paying attention to it. 

2) There are tactical recreations. I'm totally fine with these, they are designed to recreate how teams play in real life and emulate how football looks. They aren't designed purely to win, but they can be a nice base to build your team around. I love these tactics and I really liked the presets in FM19 (even if they don't always work without tweaking). These at least allow me to try and understand how to set up my side and customise them. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

Thinking about it i think there are two types of Plug and Play tactics and I have different reactions to both:

1) There are the game breakers, the ones that look to work against how the ME interprets the game and exploit its weaknesses. Those tactics with uber levels of pressing and 3 AFs and attacking mentality, that the game simple cannot handle. These tactics make me feel very sad and I don't know how anyone can garner any satisfaction from winning with them. I feel like I could buy a team full of Eric Djemba-Djembas and still win those tactics, so its almost not worth playing. They also prevent me from understanding the game or even paying attention to it. 

2) There are tactical recreations. I'm totally fine with these, they are designed to recreate how teams play in real life and emulate how football looks. They aren't designed purely to win, but they can be a nice base to build your team around. I love these tactics and I really liked the presets in FM19 (even if they don't always work without tweaking). These at least allow me to try and understand how to set up my side and customise them. 

I have to say within my post I always considered plug n play to be based on playing a distinct style of football - bit like a Wenger Plan A, where you choose players suited to that style created.

Game breakers are just purely designed for exploiting the game-engine.  That's more like a PnE for me, plug n exploit.

Edited by BJT

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3 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

I feel like I could buy a team full of Eric Djemba-Djembas and still win

Steady on, chap! Let's not get too carried away eh? :D

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Once you take a look at the tactics sharing forum and see the ones that exploit the ME, you get an idea what works best. On FM19, it's extreme pressing and attacking mentalities. Then you decide that's not how you want to play and go create a cautious, counter-attacking tactic. You spend a great deal of time tweaking it, and you even may find something that more or less works with your current team. But it will never work like the seemingly senseless gegenpressing.

Ever since FM19 came out, I've spent most of my playing time designing a defensive tactic whith our goals coming from quick counter attacks. Defensive solidity being the main purpose, my motto: win every game 1-0 if I can't, then take the 0-0. (Obviously you can't have that every match, but you gotta aim for the moon)

Even when I created something that kinda, sorta works, when I reload and play the same matches with something very gegenpress, I find that it's way better than my carefully designed tactic.

Which means that you KNOW that you're not bringing the best out of team, even when you're successful. That it could be better if you used a tactic you don't want to, at all.

It more or less ruins the game for me.

Realism is supposed to be the greatest asset FM has over the other football simulators. And I know Klopp followers are aplenty in football nowadays. But don't tell me that a team like Udinese or Brighton is better of using gegenpressing than something cautious. On FM19, they are.

I even did a Simeone replication with Atletico Madrid. I won the CL my first season. Wanna know how? Beacause of my experiences over the group stage (which I barely survived), for critical European fixtures, I abandoned my (an in this case, Simeone's) usual way of play, took my lines up high and asked my team to press "extremely urgent". Against Huesca and Girona, I went cautious.  Against Manchester City, I pressed much higher and extremely urgent. With Atletico Madrid.

Realistic?

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All of that is true and I can sympathise. Most years it's the same story with FM, at least to an extent. There are usually one or two formations that seem to work best.
FM17 was all about 3 at the back and probably going without strikers, something like 3 CBs, 2 WBs, 2 CMs, 3 AMs.
This year it's mainly 4-4-2 and press press press.
Next year will be something else.

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I think the biggest Problem yet is that its pretty hard to understand what settings actually do or how mechanics generally work in FM. Passing for example is not only related to the actually setting short <-> direct but also to actual compactness and movement of your team. It also quite differs in its mechanic itself while shorter passes are about the actual length are more direct passes only about the direction and not really about the length. So while they are allowed to play lengthier passes with more direct passing enabled they still might always choose a shorter passing option depenting on different settings like vertical compactness, general level of risk and passing options. 

Another important point is to understand that you need penetration to score a goal. To clear this up there are different ways and aspects on how you can penetrate the enemies defense. While passing (obviously) is one, there are also through balls, forward runs with and without the ball, crosses,  as well as shots.

So if you turn on shorter passes, work ball into box, dribble less  combined with a Fluid / very Fluid Team Shape you might not be very likely to score any goal unless you properbly play on a very high mentality or have a super good squad. What you really need to do is to find a good balance and actually think about on HOW you want to penetrate the defense. Also you can say that the more penetration is needed the more defensive the enemy team is. 

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13 hours ago, Earnie is God! said:

All of that is true and I can sympathise. Most years it's the same story with FM, at least to an extent. There are usually one or two formations that seem to work best.
FM17 was all about 3 at the back and probably going without strikers, something like 3 CBs, 2 WBs, 2 CMs, 3 AMs.
This year it's mainly 4-4-2 and press press press.
Next year will be something else.

I agree to an extent it's been the same for years.  However the longest save I ever had was FM17 Touch where I was over 20 years in.  It was the first incarnation that I had used "plug and play" so to speak because I was fed up with having to tinker each time a patch came out so ended up tinkering with tactics for months and only ever really got a few months of good gameplay in with a settled tactic before the new game came out.  I went and and downloaded a 4312 but it conceded too many goals.  Dragged the AM back to the DM position to make it a 4132 and made it a BWM D and went on a trophy spree for years and loved every minute because the football was good and the strikers were scoring.  It was fun to develop because certain players were better than others cohesion wise and getting the right partnerships in the shape was a good challenge.  But it played realistically and because it was narrow teams that played wide could give me a problem which was fine because that's where I left the space.

Missed 2018 and had a go at 19 and must say the tactical options in plug and play seem very similar in what they all try and do no matter what the setup.  I watched a video and tried out a tactic from a very successful tactic builder on all forums and must say it was fun losing 5-4 to Man United after being 3-1 up but again it was very attacking with high pressing which they all seem to be.  I recreated my balanced 4132 for 19 manually as I couldn't transfer it across and I can't even get a shot on goal!!!  No matter what you do you can't get strikers scoring or getting players to cross without hitting the first defender (to me anyway) so it's all about goals from elsewhere and that's just because the strikers miss chances constantly and their movement is poor.

There are too many variables to making a tactic now so I am just lazy and will just keep downloading until I find one I like.  The most successful I have tried are on here but again they are a 451 and a 442 and who really plays 442 these days IRL and if they do it tends to be the strikers that score the goals!!

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On 21/05/2019 at 13:13, Earnie is God! said:

So I succumbed and went back to P&P :(

When you know you can use P&P to (reliably and consistently) get a relegation battler to a comfortable Europa League spot with matches on key highlights, it's rather difficult to go back to your own tactics where you have to think, watch games closely, tweak and tinker only to get your club to a boring mid-table finish (at best).

It really depends on what you want from the game. I can see why people enjoy the tactical journey, but when most of my playing time revolves around weekend nights with an alcoholic beverage on the side and some podcast in the background, the plug and play way is much more desirable and, ultimately, fun.

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1 minute ago, shirajzl said:

When you know you can use P&P to (reliably and consistently) get a relegation battler to a comfortable Europa League spot with matches on key highlights, it's rather difficult to go back to your own tactics where you have to think, watch games closely, tweak and tinker only to get your club to a boring mid-table finish (at best).

It really depends on what you want from the game. I can see why people enjoy the tactical journey, but when most of my playing time revolves around weekend nights with an alcoholic beverage on the side and some podcast in the background, the plug and play way is much more desirable and, ultimately, fun.

I'm interested in what level of interaction you are having with the game on P&P. For me the tactics side is quite major, and so I spend time thinking about it. What is it you actually do during the time you have the game on when you install P&P tactics. I mean if the transfer window is closed you can't buy players, I rarely do much with training.. so when the tactics are not really even a question for me to think about I'm not sure what I would actually be doing during the game other than just racing through games.

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6 minutes ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

I'm interested in what level of interaction you are having with the game on P&P. For me the tactics side is quite major, and so I spend time thinking about it. What is it you actually do during the time you have the game on when you install P&P tactics. I mean if the transfer window is closed you can't buy players, I rarely do much with training.. so when the tactics are not really even a question for me to think about I'm not sure what I would actually be doing during the game other than just racing through games.

Scouting, planning transfers ahead, watching your players develop... When all that is done, there's always browsing the Internet, Youtube, and as I already mentioned, podcasts in the background. I guess it's a different way of playing this particular video game for me. I like not having to be focused 100% of the time on it because otherwise it would tire me. It's one of the reasons I stopped playing FPS games years ago.

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5 minutes ago, shirajzl said:

Scouting, planning transfers ahead, watching your players develop... When all that is done, there's always browsing the Internet, Youtube, and as I already mentioned, podcasts in the background. I guess it's a different way of playing this particular video game for me. I like not having to be focused 100% of the time on it because otherwise it would tire me. It's one of the reasons I stopped playing FPS games years ago.

Ha, yeah I guess I don't really get the appeal. FM can be quite time consuming, but for me that is why I like it, it's so immersive. I can't really get my head around playing using P&P tactics because I don't know where the satisfaction lays. Fair play to others who want to do that, but I think it totally misses the point of the game altogether. I don't see it as any different to putting the game on holiday mode and coming back 3 days later to see what happened. 

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Posted (edited)

I just can't go back to P&P as it feels like the success isn't my own. I used to download tactics every time and tbh I'm not going to lie, it was the most fun I've had in FM ever but then I got older and realised the success felt 'fake' so to speak. I would now feel really guilty if I used a P&P tactic, it would ruin my save.

In saying that, due to me being terrible at creating successful tactics, I have now went from since FM13 without getting past 1 season, I've been stuck in a loop testing tactics on FM Touch for the past few editions, which is quite sad :( I would be happy with a tactic that I don't need to tweak much, but it would have to be created by me. As long as it was created by me, then if it worked like a P&P tactic, I would be ok with it as it would be my creation. So far that hasn't happened so I just restart and test over and over again. Basically I'm too scared of failure so I never start a proper save with a tactic that is inconsistent like the ones I create. 

Edited by Gee_Simpson

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On 28/05/2019 at 06:38, Enzo_Francescoli said:

Realism is supposed to be the greatest asset FM has over the other football simulators. And I know Klopp followers are aplenty in football nowadays. But don't tell me that a team like Udinese or Brighton is better of using gegenpressing than something cautious. On FM19, they are.

I even did a Simeone replication with Atletico Madrid. I won the CL my first season. Wanna know how? Beacause of my experiences over the group stage (which I barely survived), for critical European fixtures, I abandoned my (an in this case, Simeone's) usual way of play, took my lines up high and asked my team to press "extremely urgent". Against Huesca and Girona, I went cautious.  Against Manchester City, I pressed much higher and extremely urgent. With Atletico Madrid.

Realistic?

I think a lot of the success of high pressing tactics is due to long shots being a bit overpowered and (possibly more importantly) one-on-one finishing being pretty poor. I agree it's not that realistic which is a shame as this ME seems pretty decent when it comes to creating more defensive styles of play. 

9 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

Ha, yeah I guess I don't really get the appeal. FM can be quite time consuming, but for me that is why I like it, it's so immersive. I can't really get my head around playing using P&P tactics because I don't know where the satisfaction lays. Fair play to others who want to do that, but I think it totally misses the point of the game altogether. I don't see it as any different to putting the game on holiday mode and coming back 3 days later to see what happened. 

I can relate to both sides, I enjoy making a tactic and seeing it really click or trying a new idea and trying to get it to work. At the same time it can be very frustrating, especially trying to take an idea and then figure out how to translate that into FM. I also really enjoy developing players, it's why in the past I've had super fun saves with Porto and Real Madrid despite winning everything haha. I'd say the satisfaction comes from watching the players you brought in or developed (etc) playing and coming good. Hell in my Porto game in FM17 (which wasn't using a PnP but still) I loved watching the kids play and even started creating chants for them and all sort of silly stuff. 

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Posted (edited)
On 29/05/2019 at 20:58, Gee_Simpson said:

I just can't go back to P&P as it feels like the success isn't my own. I used to download tactics every time and tbh I'm not going to lie, it was the most fun I've had in FM ever but then I got older and realised the success felt 'fake' so to speak. I would now feel really guilty if I used a P&P tactic, it would ruin my save.

In saying that, due to me being terrible at creating successful tactics, I have now went from since FM13 without getting past 1 season, I've been stuck in a loop testing tactics on FM Touch for the past few editions, which is quite sad :( I would be happy with a tactic that I don't need to tweak much, but it would have to be created by me. As long as it was created by me, then if it worked like a P&P tactic, I would be ok with it as it would be my creation. So far that hasn't happened so I just restart and test over and over again. Basically I'm too scared of failure so I never start a proper save with a tactic that is inconsistent like the ones I create. 

See, this is part of the issue for me. @johnnyyakuza78 can ask, and legitimately so, what do we P&Paholics concentrate on if not tactics but there are examples like above where somebody hasn't played more than 1 season with the same club/save for the last seven versions of the game because of their tactics. To me that just seems like a waste of time, not to mention money.
But there is so much more than the tactical side of the game. I've always been a bit of a wheeler and dealer and absolute love a bargain buy. I also get a buzz out of seeing young players develop into 1st teamers, especially those who have come through the youth system. Watching the stature of the club grow; staying with the same team for many years; or moving on to one of the big boys and becoming one the the best managers in the history of the club/league; managing a national side to glory.

I appreciate that last couple wouldn't come without winning most games and so your tactics are very important, I've never denied that, but with so many other aspects to the game to distract you and make the game more complicated and time consuming than ever before, I'd rather not be spending most of my time trying to put together a tactic.

I'm talking about...
1) the mess that is Dynamics
2) the scouting system where you have to waste time searching for a report on a player now they've taken the 'report card only' option away, plus all the mail in your inbox from your scouts that, no matter what you choose in your settings, you can never get rid of properly, and scouting meetings where they tell you all about this fantastic player but, wait, you can't sign him because he doesn't want to move, his club refuses to sell or he wouldn't even get a work permit
3) the new training schedules
4) increased news feed and social media
5) constant clicking to move forward just a couple of hours, especially on match days
6) previews and reviews of every match day of every competition you are in that you cannot switch off
7) player interactions where there are moaning about playing time or have become upset because their special friend in their special social group wants a new contract every five minutes and I've refused

If you want to immerse yourself in the training, love social media, analysing scoutign reports if you can find the needle in the haystack, interacting with players all the time, or enjoy the groups, units, mentoring and everything else that dynamics brings, good luck to you.
With time and practice, I have learned how to trim those down to a degree although they still take much longer than I would like but what I really hate is having to click click click just to get through a few hours of a match day where there are almost always different kick off times and therefore needless pauses in between each one and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it!

OK, this has turned into a rant and for that I apologise. It's not directed at anyone, just the annoyance I feel when playing this game. The last thing I want on top of that is to take even more time to create tactics and inevitably see them relatively fail because I'm not as good as knap and I don't see things and fix them like Rashidi does with ease.

I just don't have time for that.

Edited by Earnie is God!

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On 22/05/2019 at 06:14, parsdaft1982 said:

Oh I want too, and I probably will, at the end of my current season.... 

Yes, just... one... more... season... :D

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20 hours ago, Sussex Hammer said:

I agree to an extent it's been the same for years.  However the longest save I ever had was FM17 Touch where I was over 20 years in.

My longest save was also FM17 and also the longest time I'd spent with one club. Some people complain that the defending in FM17 was very poor and yes, it wasn't great, but the football on show was a delight. I generally play a few seasons with one club and then move on to another or start another save but I stayed with the same club for 9 years and then another 3 with a big club and also managed Italy and, later, Brazil. I only stopped because I bought FM19.

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1 hour ago, Earnie is God! said:

If you want to immerse yourself in the training, love social media, analysing scoutign reports if you can find the needle in the haystack, interacting with players all the time, or enjoy the groups, units, mentoring and everything else that dynamics brings, good luck to you.
With time and practice, I have learned how to trim those down to a degree although they still take much longer than I would like but what I really hate is having to click click click just to get through a few hours of a match day where there are almost always different kick off times and therefore needless pauses in between each one and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it!

That's exactly why I purchased FM Touch this year. I don't have time to be a real life football manager, so at least on here you can choose a generalised training style whilst still being able to identify the particular attributes you want each player to focus on within their individual training and also choose the particular role they are to specialise in. It's a lot less time consuming - or you can simply let the assistant handle it. I believe loading and general game processing time is quicker on Touch.

I dislike that constant clicking too - but you should have an option for all matches to be played on a Saturday and Wednesday. I do this as well as it saves a lot of time.

I have to say the one thing I will spend time on is creating a tactic, but I make sure it's designed to play a particular style. That way you don't need to spend all day watching every minute of a game and tweaking it. You will also know exactly the type of player you'll need for that system, enjoy watching your team play your football style and then do the wheeling and dealing you enjoy :)

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1 hour ago, Earnie is God! said:

My longest save was also FM17 and also the longest time I'd spent with one club. Some people complain that the defending in FM17 was very poor and yes, it wasn't great, but the football on show was a delight. I generally play a few seasons with one club and then move on to another or start another save but I stayed with the same club for 9 years and then another 3 with a big club and also managed Italy and, later, Brazil. I only stopped because I bought FM19.

I thought the defending was pretty decent in FM17.  Too many penalties given away but I didn't concede too many goals throughout the season the season in 20 odd years and the main thing, strikers scored goals with plenty of decent play through the middle.  Crossing and wide play wasn't great but at least forwards scored.  My main issue with 19 is even the top tactic makers seem to create a tactic that makes wide players their top scorers because balls through the middle and strikers scoring seem to be an issue. 

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@Earnie is God! makes a lot of good points. I think that everyone plays the game in a different way and the game is complex enough to allow you to do that. 

As an old school Champ Manager player I generally dislike a lot of the elements they have added onto the game. I know I spend a lot of my time pressing the spacebar to skip through the millions of notifications in my inbox of irrelevant rubbish, just to get to the games. 

So maybe this is a mentality difference here. For me, the matches are the key part of the game. Winning and losing the matches is the most important part, seeing how my team play and thinking about how to improve it. I really enjoy buying players too, but that only really happens in the summer and is often quite frustrating anyway as I play as teams with small budgets and I don't like using spammy tactics to get players.

So when people sort of gloss over what for me is the key element of the game by using P&P (mostly the ME breaking varient) I'm not sure what else there is to do. 

 

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4 hours ago, Earnie is God! said:

Yes, just... one... more... season... :D

Yea into next season, still using P&P tactics :ackter:

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On 30/05/2019 at 09:09, BJT said:

That's exactly why I purchased FM Touch this year. I don't have time to be a real life football manager, so at least on here you can choose a generalised training style whilst still being able to identify the particular attributes you want each player to focus on within their individual training and also choose the particular role they are to specialise in. It's a lot less time consuming - or you can simply let the assistant handle it. I believe loading and general game processing time is quicker on Touch.

I dislike that constant clicking too - but you should have an option for all matches to be played on a Saturday and Wednesday. I do this as well as it saves a lot of time.

I have to say the one thing I will spend time on is creating a tactic, but I make sure it's designed to play a particular style. That way you don't need to spend all day watching every minute of a game and tweaking it. You will also know exactly the type of player you'll need for that system, enjoy watching your team play your football style and then do the wheeling and dealing you enjoy :)

I must admit that when I was typing out that post you replied to, I thought someone would mention Touch, and it is indeed a valid point.
I have played Touch versions in the past but felt them to be somewhat lacking in depth. Admittedly, it's been a while since I've played Touch so that may well be an option.

I don't recall seeing an option to have all games played on a Saturday or Wednesday but I do remember seeing an option to not have 'matches moved for TV.'
That may be the same thing you are talking about and could well solve the issue I currently have with the stalling process currently in the game where it stops after the early kick off to give you the result (which I really do not see the point of) then you play all the 3pm games before another pause, before finally playing the late game.
So yes, will 'untick' the move for TV option and that should help. Another instance of me not really paying attention to what that option really means I suppose.
I had it ticked because, in the EPL at least, you get £1.2m if it's your game that has been moved for TV and that's a fair chunk of change!

Is Touch quite different to what it used to be? I probably last played it on FM15 or even FM13 and it just seemed a bit too basic.

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12 minutes ago, Earnie is God! said:

I must admit that when I was typing out that post you replied to, I thought someone would mention Touch, and it is indeed a valid point.
I have played Touch versions in the past but felt them to be somewhat lacking in depth. Admittedly, it's been a while since I've played Touch so that may well be an option.

I don't recall seeing an option to have all games played on a Saturday or Wednesday but I do remember seeing an option to not have 'matches moved for TV.'
That may be the same thing you are talking about and could well solve the issue I currently have with the stalling process currently in the game where it stops after the early kick off to give you the result (which I really do not see the point of) then you play all the 3pm games before another pause, before finally playing the late game.
So yes, will 'untick' the move for TV option and that should help. Another instance of me not really paying attention to what that option really means I suppose.
I had it ticked because, in the EPL at least, you get £1.2m if it's your game that has been moved for TV and that's a fair chunk of change!

Is Touch quite different to what it used to be? I probably last played it on FM15 or even FM13 and it just seemed a bit too basic.

Didn't think of it like that with the TV money :) 

Well from a gameplay perspective for me at least, I think it's great. Tactics are still based I believe on the main FM game so that side isn't affected. The training options it sounds are a lot less in depth on touch. But with that said, there are still training options available on there that:

A - Can be set to suit the style of play you envision in your tactic. For instance in a hoofball tactic of mine where I play for set=pieces, I choose the train "set pieces" option in the hope they'll be more effective in those situations, or if playing a highly technical possession based game I'll choose the "possession" training to ensure all my players will try to be competent at their first touch and passing. There are other options available.

B- For the roles chosen in your tactic, you can assign a player perhaps not natural to that role to train in it. He will then train in those attributes for that role, and you can further choose an additional focus area that individual can work on. So if he lacks agility and balance in a Trequartista role then this can be selected for further focus on in training.

For me at least that level of detail is enough as you still need to put enough thought into FM Touch to get the most out of your system and players without spending all day trying to get full out training schedules perfected.

That then leaves me with the challenge of producing tactical systems for my style of football along with the wheeling and dealing side of the game - challenging enough for me :)

My only criticism of touch is the realism side along with statistical information. I.E Financial Fair Play is not an issue in FM Touch, and there are no average possession statistics of the year that I personally would find useful in seeing how my system performs on that front. There are probably a lot of other stats that may not be shown. That would explain the less processing time required for this version.

I think there is no interaction options with players on a personal level either. The option would be nice as being able to control a declining relationship with a player would be handy.

But if you want a version that is less in depth but still requiring a thought process in the available options, that is a quicker game when it comes to processing, and perhaps a more tactic orientated game determining your success then I'd recommend giving it a try.

Doesn't Touch come free with the main game anyway? Could give it an install and a bash...

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