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Help needed: Creating a possession orientated flat 4141


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Hey all,

I'm not too bad with tactics on FM, however my expertise tend to fall into two camps: the 41221 and the lower end of mentalities. 

Where I'm not so hot is less layered formations and the higher end of the mentality spectrum which is exactly where I'm struggling at the moment. 

My aim is that I want to create a progressive possession orientated 4141 where the central midfielders are the heartbeat of the team, building attacks, then spreading the ball wide and getting in the box to join a lone striker, or going beyond him to score. Ideally I want the midfielders passing to a winger who will be on the edge of the area, attack the byline and cut it back, or an overlapping fullback hugging the touchline will cross from deep. 

A few things I want:

- A strong focal point of a striker whos cores goals. 

- Possession. I don't want to monopolize it, but I do want to play it short and out from the back.

- 2 creative midfielders, one of which is more tasked with goalscoring, the other carries the ball and breaks the lines. 

- Use of width and crossing. 

This is what I have so far. The problems are, I find it really tough to get meaningful possession, also I find it hard to replicate what I'm trying to do especially the midfielders getting beyond the striker. It's also been quite frail defensively, particularly through the middle. I realize the striker role is a problem (just I find the TM A to be very good at scoring) but any / all help greatly appreciated. 

 

 

Screen Shot 2019-05-18 at 10.14.28 AM.png

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Have been trying to do something similar, struggled so far, please do continue! Really looking forward to! I find it interesting though, that you use higher defensive line and not higher line of engagement, because I thought you would want to negate the space in front of the midfield, wondering how it's gonna turn out!

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3 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

Hey all,

I'm not too bad with tactics on FM, however my expertise tend to fall into two camps: the 41221 and the lower end of mentalities. 

Where I'm not so hot is less layered formations and the higher end of the mentality spectrum which is exactly where I'm struggling at the moment. 

My aim is that I want to create a progressive possession orientated 4141 where the central midfielders are the heartbeat of the team, building attacks, then spreading the ball wide and getting in the box to join a lone striker, or going beyond him to score. Ideally I want the midfielders passing to a winger who will be on the edge of the area, attack the byline and cut it back, or an overlapping fullback hugging the touchline will cross from deep. 

A few things I want:

- A strong focal point of a striker whos cores goals. 

- Possession. I don't want to monopolize it, but I do want to play it short and out from the back.

- 2 creative midfielders, one of which is more tasked with goalscoring, the other carries the ball and breaks the lines. 

- Use of width and crossing. 

This is what I have so far. The problems are, I find it really tough to get meaningful possession, also I find it hard to replicate what I'm trying to do especially the midfielders getting beyond the striker. It's also been quite frail defensively, particularly through the middle. I realize the striker role is a problem (just I find the TM A to be very good at scoring) but any / all help greatly appreciated. 

 

 

Screen Shot 2019-05-18 at 10.14.28 AM.png

The 4-1-4-1 deep is a really interesting shape. Can be very good and aggressive if used right

Questions:

1. What are the overall attributes of your players and why do you feel you can pull this off.

3. Some TI's are a bit too much, i don't understand

Suggestions: 

TI's 

Possession: Maybe take off the overlap?

Transition: can take everything off & just put Counter(if your players can/are good enough to operate a good Counter press, then use that)

Out of possession: Do you have the sort of defenders to operate a high line? Watch games as you tweak this one. I'd rather you fix this, yourself.

Players:

There's a lot of support in wider areas from your middle(Mez & BBM, both roam, but still have the option of Vertical runs, occasionally). Might i suggest some changes?

Your RCM can be A CM on attack. He'll make those lateral runs and your RMW can be a winger on either at or Su (with get forward PI). A FB on support(DR) can play behind them

Nothing wrong with Mez(LCM), but it'll be easier combine him with an Inverted winger out left who you can tell to sit narrow and roam. That way you choke the channel in that area and allow for a WB on attack to overall that area. It'll also drag opposite teams players to that area, and allows your CMat to exploit the space left.

Your striker can be a DLfsu/TMsu, toggle between both. Let's not leave your 'lone/link up' alone.

Finally: You can reduce your DLpde closing down to less. Let him stick to his area while others pursue the oppostion. Watch games and make tweaks, too.

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You might have a danger of your DLP bypassing your two MC's. Couple that with a Target man...... I think your team looks a little like this..

 

Goal keep to Whelan.... Whelan to Abraham.... Abraham looses possession as he is the only upfield player.

A few bullets from me:

  • A straight forward DM(D) will recycle possession over and and over.
  • If you want an MC scoring goals then go for a Mez(A).
  • A DLF(A/S) I think would work better in a possession tactic. It can still do the TM stuff but will not draw the play overly and you can switch it around depending on their supply and involvement in the game.
  • You're playing through the middle when you have 4 wide players. Turn it off and let the team decide where to pass as the game unfolds
  • You need some roaming to ensure players are always in position to receive the ball without a marker. I'd turn it off.
  • Watch the WB roles. I playing a very very similar tactic to this but with the AML/R positions. I recently swtich my WB's to FB'(S/A) and the defensive transformation was amazing. A FB(S/A) can still be Really attacking.... they just choose their moment more careful. Using FB's will also mean that you'll have deeper support more often to recycle play
  • Turn off most of those TI's. It's impossible to work out why your tactic is not working with so many active. (keep short passing - fundamental to possession). Once you understand the tactic and see something in game to exploit then turn some back on again (injured opposition FB - overload the flank etc)
  • Looking for some combining duties on three front players. Something like a Mez(A), DLF(S) and Winger(A). If it's to much then pull the winger back to (S)

Below are the two I'm playing with at the moment. Look to the left side to see main changes.

image.thumb.png.e8426fc6497a2bf16cd8f63351a15efd.png

image.thumb.png.0b3b2bce7b23bba12b8a642de5da8fe4.png

LAM

 

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The issue with this tactic sticks out like a sore thumb. You are playing a deep formation that naturally has a challenge of supporting the striker. Then you have gone and given the striker an attack duty, while everyone else is on support or defend. You're much better off putting your striker on support and adding an attack duty or two from deeper positions.

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22 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

Hey all,

I'm not too bad with tactics on FM, however my expertise tend to fall into two camps: the 41221 and the lower end of mentalities. 

Where I'm not so hot is less layered formations and the higher end of the mentality spectrum which is exactly where I'm struggling at the moment. 

My aim is that I want to create a progressive possession orientated 4141 where the central midfielders are the heartbeat of the team, building attacks, then spreading the ball wide and getting in the box to join a lone striker, or going beyond him to score. Ideally I want the midfielders passing to a winger who will be on the edge of the area, attack the byline and cut it back, or an overlapping fullback hugging the touchline will cross from deep. 

A few things I want:

- A strong focal point of a striker whos cores goals. 

- Possession. I don't want to monopolize it, but I do want to play it short and out from the back.

- 2 creative midfielders, one of which is more tasked with goalscoring, the other carries the ball and breaks the lines. 

- Use of width and crossing. 

This is what I have so far. The problems are, I find it really tough to get meaningful possession, also I find it hard to replicate what I'm trying to do especially the midfielders getting beyond the striker. It's also been quite frail defensively, particularly through the middle. I realize the striker role is a problem (just I find the TM A to be very good at scoring) but any / all help greatly appreciated. 

 

 

Screen Shot 2019-05-18 at 10.14.28 AM.png

Okay, let's analyze this tactic taking into account your description of how you want to play.

The first obvious thing is the Prevent short GKD TI. It makes sense only if you have at least 3 players up front (including wide forwards/wingers). Here you have only one (the lone striker). Advice: remove the instruction.

Counter-press is another instruction that makes little (if any) sense for the exact same reason as Prevent GKD. If you played a 4141dm wide (or 4231, 424), CP might be a good idea (depending on how good your players are). But in a bottom-heavy system, it can do more harm than good.

The next thing is the obvious isolation of your lone striker. You can have a lone striker on attack duty in a flat 4141, but then he needs more support from the midfield. 

The lone striker's role can also be problematic in this case, given that you want to play possession-based football. TM is not an ideal choice for that type of playing style. And this then brings us back to his duty as well. While - as I already said - the lone ST on attack duty can work in a flat 4141 in general, in a possession-oriented tactic specifically, support duty would make a lot more sense (ideally CFsu, DLFsu or F9, depending on the type of player you are using up front).

Focus play through the middle is another instruction I would immediately remove. First, it increases the mentalities of your CBs and DM, which potentially makes you needlessly vulnerable to balls over the top, especially when you already play with a higher DL and on a high-risk mentality (such as positive or above). But even apart from the defensive risk, why would you limit your attacking options by focusing play through the middle (except in specific situations when the opposition has clear weaknesses in that particular area of the pitch) ?!? Rather than focusing play through the middle, my preference would be to slightly reduce the width (just one notch - to fairly narrow). That can help with possession football, though may not be necessary btw.

On the other hand, instructions like shorter passing and play out of defence go hand in hand with possession-based styles of play :thup:

So, having all this in mind - including again your intention regarding the style of play - one possible way to set up a flat possession-based 4141 could be this:

DLF/CFsu

 

Wsu     MEZat     DLPsu     WMsu

ACM

IWBsu     CDde     CDde     FBat

SKde

Now you have a setup of roles and duties in which every player has a sufficient number of passing options when in possession, while at the same time keeping solid and well-balanced defensive shape (provided all players are used in the roles that suit them). And you also have a ball-crossing role on each flank (winger and FB on attack respectively).

What combo of team instructions could be a logical choice to support this (kind of) setup:

Positive mentality

- shorter passing, play out of defence (optional instructions - slightly narrower width, work ball into box)

- distribute to CBs and FBs (not sure if Hold shape is necessary, even though it does make sense in possession-based styles)

- higher d-line, use offside trap, use tighter marking (optional instruction - higher LOE)

Defensive player instructions that can be used to sort of compensate for not using counter-press and prevent GKD:

- close down more for the striker, mezzala and right midfielder.

However, you should not expect a flat 4141 to be as effective as a 4141dm wide when it comes to possession-based football.

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21 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, let's analyze this tactic taking into account your description of how you want to play.

The first obvious thing is the Prevent short GKD TI. It makes sense only if you have at least 3 players up front (including wide forwards/wingers). Here you have only one (the lone striker). Advice: remove the instruction.

Counter-press is another instruction that makes little (if any) sense for the exact same reason as Prevent GKD. If you played a 4141dm wide (or 4231, 424), CP might be a good idea (depending on how good your players are). But in a bottom-heavy system, it can do more harm than good.

The next thing is the obvious isolation of your lone striker. You can have a lone striker on attack duty in a flat 4141, but then he needs more support from the midfield. 

The lone striker's role can also be problematic in this case, given that you want to play possession-based football. TM is not an ideal choice for that type of playing style. And this then brings us back to his duty as well. While - as I already said - the lone ST on attack duty can work in a flat 4141 in general, in a possession-oriented tactic specifically, support duty would make a lot more sense (ideally CFsu, DLFsu or F9, depending on the type of player you are using up front).

Focus play through the middle is another instruction I would immediately remove. First, it increases the mentalities of your CBs and DM, which potentially makes you needlessly vulnerable to balls over the top, especially when you already play with a higher DL and on a high-risk mentality (such as positive or above). But even apart from the defensive risk, why would you limit your attacking options by focusing play through the middle (except in specific situations when the opposition has clear weaknesses in that particular area of the pitch) ?!? Rather than focusing play through the middle, my preference would be to slightly reduce the width (just one notch - to fairly narrow). That can help with possession football, though may not be necessary btw.

On the other hand, instructions like shorter passing and play out of defence go hand in hand with possession-based styles of play :thup:

So, having all this in mind - including again your intention regarding the style of play - one possible way to set up a flat possession-based 4141 could be this:

DLF/CFsu

 

Wsu     MEZat     DLPsu     WMsu

ACM

IWBsu     CDde     CDde     FBat

SKde

Now you have a setup of roles and duties in which every player has a sufficient number of passing options when in possession, while at the same time keeping solid and well-balanced defensive shape (provided all players are used in the roles that suit them). And you also have a ball-crossing role on each flank (winger and FB on attack respectively).

What combo of team instructions could be a logical choice to support this (kind of) setup:

Positive mentality

- shorter passing, play out of defence (optional instructions - slightly narrower width, work ball into box)

- distribute to CBs and FBs (not sure if Hold shape is necessary, even though it does make sense in possession-based styles)

- higher d-line, use offside trap, use tighter marking (optional instruction - higher LOE)

Defensive player instructions that can be used to sort of compensate for not using counter-press and prevent GKD:

- close down more for the striker, mezzala and right midfielder.

However, you should not expect a flat 4141 to be as effective as a 4141dm wide when it comes to possession-based football.

Thanks man. Yeah I realized a lot of my mistakes after a couple of games.

 

I've switched back to the pushing the wingers higher as it creates more possession. I'm still not set on the midfield or striker roles though.

 

The DLP makes a lot of sense but like in Reale life I want McGinn to be a driving force from midfield and also a source of goals. So maybe B2B?

 

Striker wise is tough. I have Tammy Abraham who is exceptional. I know the TM role is counter intuitive but it's been much improved this year and on Attack it scores for fun....I might do a thread on it.

What I'm thinking / toying with now.

 

                TM (a)

IF (S).                       IF(s)

       Mez(s).  CM(A)

                 DM

WB (s) Cd. Cd.     Cwb (s)

 

Balanced

Shorter passing

Wider

Higher d line higher LOE tighter marking

It's still not there yet. The midfield two and striker I feel are my biggest worry right now.

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38 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

What I'm thinking / toying with now.

 

                TM (a)

IF (S).                       IF(s)

       Mez(s).  CM(A)

                 DM

WB (s) Cd. Cd.     Cwb (s)

 

Balanced

Shorter passing

Wider

Higher d line higher LOE tighter marking

It's still not there yet. The midfield two and striker I feel are my biggest worry right now.

I fear this setup could be too vulnerable defense-wise, especially considering the 2 CMs' roles and tighter marking coupled with high DL (along with the fact that Villa is not a top team).

But on the other hand -  you cannot know until you give it a try :onmehead:

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1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

I fear this setup could be too vulnerable defense-wise, especially considering the 2 CMs' roles and tighter marking coupled with high DL (along with the fact that Villa is not a top team).

But on the other hand -  you cannot know until you give it a try :onmehead:

Ha one game in and I noticed that. Shifted him to CM (s) with get further forward ticked. and changed mentality to positive tighter marking taken off. 

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