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Experienced Defender

Possible tactics for top EPL teams (pt. 3 - Tottenham)

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Those of you who may already have read the first two parts of this series - on Chelsea and Arsenal respectively - will know what this thread will be about. For others, here is a brief explanation: the idea is to help people who intend to manage (or are already managing) one of the top six English clubs create a well-balanced tactic by providing a concrete example. Now it's time for the third London heavyweight - the Tottenham Hotspurs!

One thing that I always look to emphasize is that none of my tactics is a plug-and-play tactic. They are meant to be just a solid starting point for you to build upon - and around - it by making appropriate tweaks when and where it's needed.

My Chelsea tactic utilized a 4213DM Wide system coupled with the Attacking team mentality. With Arsenal it was a 4141DM Wide on Positive. For the Spurs, it will again be a 4141DM Wide with Positive mentality. Actually pretty similar to Arsenal's, with just a few (rather small) adjustments. The reason for these similarities is very simple - all these teams possess similar levels of quality in their respective squads. I could have gone with a different formation - e.g. 4231 - but the key reason I tend to opt for 4141DM Wide is its balance. The system is neither top-heavy nor bottom-heavy, but just right - because it allows enough room for being creative and adventurous with roles and duties while preserving good overall balance and defensive stability.

While for Chelsea I created just one tactic, for Arsenal I did two. The Spurs will now be "treated" to as many as three! One may think that's because I like them more than the other two London clubs - which, in all honesty, is true - but that really was not my motive in this case. It's just a mere coincidence. In fact, I just want(ed) to show how you can tweak a tactic when different types of players are used in certain positions.

So let's get started...

The first thing I noticed analyzing the Spurs squad is that they possess a bit less speed on average than other top 6 EPL sides. On the other hand, they have a very hard-working and intelligent bunch of players (though that can be also said for other top teams in England). But overall, there is nothing that jumps out to an extent that it would require the Spurs (primary) tactic to be significantly different from the ones I devise(d) for other top teams. In fact, the most notable difference pertains to a couple of defense-related player instructions.

So, what would be my preferred setup of roles and duties in the first Spurs tactic? Here it is:

DLFsu

APsu                                 IFat

MEZat     BWMsu

HB

IWBsu    CDde    CDde    WBsu

SKde

When you see which starting 11 I would play within this particular setup – or for which starting 11 the setup was created, if you will - you will probably understand the reasoning behind the selection and distribution of roles and duties.

GK/SKde – Lloris (as with Arsenal, I would prefer a SK on support, but Lloris’ relevant attributes aren’t good enough)

DL/IWBsu – Rose (alternatively Davies)

DR/WBsu – Trippier

DCL/CDde – Vertonghen

DCR/CDde – Alderweireld (both CBs are capable of playing a BPD role, but my personal preference is to keep it simple in the backline; and even if I occasionally used a BPD, it would certainly be only one of them)

DM/HB – Dier (the most obvious choice for both the position and role)

MCL/MEZat – Ali (just look at his attributes and traits)

MCR/BWMsu – Wanyama (no doubt, the most suitable Spurs player for the role)

AML/APsu – Eriksen (a perfect choice for a playmaker, plus can create very nice interplay with the attacking mezzala)

AMR/IFat – Son or Moura (having an attacking mezzala who attacks the box on the left, I want the AMR to do that from the right wing)

ST/DLFsu – Kane (a complete forward that can play any striker role, but in this system I want him to drop slightly deeper, both to link up play and create space for the mezzala and the IF in the first place)

Which player instructions would I use for this players/roles?

GK/SKde – take fewer risks (because of the already mentioned poor passing and vision; good rushing out and one-on-ones are key reasons to play him as a SK, rather than standard GK)

DR/WBsu – cross more often (to utilize his very good crossing ability, especially as there would be enough teammates both within and near the box at the time he is likely to deliver a cross, partly due to the Overlap right instruction, which will be part of the TIs).

DM/HB – mark tighter, close down less (the latter is there to make him keep his position in defense as much as possible, rather than rushing to press and thus leave the back-line potentially exposed to quick counters)

MCR/BWMsu – hold position, mark tighter, take fewer risks (his primary responsibility is to protect the right side in defense and keep it simple in attack)

MCL/MEZat – mark tighter (my preference is to use the tight marking PI for the midfielders as a safer way of thwarting opposition build-ups than high pressing and/or hard tackling)

AMR/IFat – sit narrower (to encourage him to act as much of a potential goal-threat as possible)

ST/DLFsu – roam from position (to make him be as active as possible in the build-up phase and thus act as a sort of “hybrid” between a DLF and CF)

The optional instruction for both centre-backsclose down less (they are top defenders, but their speed – while decent – is not extraordinary, so there is some risk that they could have issues against pacy and highly mobile forwards)

Others’ player instructions would be left on default (at least initially).

Now come the team instructions, which will for the most part be identical to those in the Arsenal tactics. That’s because my preferred style of play with top teams is basically same – the one I call “progressive possession football” (as opposed to slow and overly patient styles).

Mentality also remains Positive.

In possession – shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, be more expressive, overlap right (optional/occasional TIoverlap left)

In transition – counter, roll it out, distribute to CBs and FBs (and counter-press against weak sides)

Out of possession – higher d-line, standard LOE, use tighter marking, prevent short GKD, use offside trap

NOTE: When counter-press is off, the striker and more attacking of the 2 CMs (the mezzala in this setup) can be told to close down more in their player instructions).

The other two tactics I devised for the Spurs aren’t actually entirely different tactics, but rather variants of the first one. Mentality and team instructions remain the same. The changes are minor and pertain solely to a couple of roles played by players other than the aforementioned starting 11 when they are used instead of someone played in the primary tactic.

So for example, when Winks replaces Wanyama in MCR, he should be played as a DLP on support, rather than a BWM. His only PI would be “Mark tighter”. Everything else remains unchanged. This change means some more creativity in the midfield, but a bit less aggression (which is not necessarily bad, and could moreover contribute to more solid defending).

Or, when Alli is replaced by Sissoko in MCL, the latter can be played as a standard CM on attack duty (instead of mezzala). The only player instruction – mark tighter.

Thus, the setup involving Winks (MCR) and Sissoko (MCL) would be this:

DLFsu

APsu                                  IFat

CMat     DLPsu

HB

IWBsu    CDde    CDde    WBsu

SKde

Finally, when you play Aurier as the right back instead of Trippier, he could be occasionally used as an IWB on attack. In that case, the AMR becomes a winger on support (instead of IF on attack). So the setup now looks like this:

DLFsu

APsu                                Wsu

CM/MEZat   DLPsu

HB

IWBsu    CDde    CDde    IWBat

SKde

In terms of team instructions, the only change is removing the Overlap right. It’s simply not needed now that the right back is on attack duty.

And that’s it! Once again - this is not a plug-and-play tactic. It has been devised solely based on my analysis of the Spurs squad, and haven’t been tested.

So if you want to use it – keep in mind that some tweaking will most likely be needed in certain situations.

P.S: If you are possibly interested in how I would transform this Spurs tactic into a bit more conservative and counter-attacking version of itself, please let me know :thup:

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Interesting how you've set them up. Been waiting for this ever since my thread about them. Ended up getting 6th and getting sacked, so didn't bother playing with them anymore.

What exactly is the difference between CMa and MEZa? Don't they behave like each other?

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While I appreciate your posts and this series it kinda is a pity that there is not much insights on how that team actually plays irl and how you try to replicate it on FM. This would be really interesting as I (and I think many others) don’t follow EPL too much but like to start a save there. 

Especially if it is as you said basicly the same as your tactical approach on Arsenal was. 

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i know they arent an EPL team, but is there any chance you could extend this series to show how youd set Napoli up? id love to get them going and can never seem to. Nor can the AI on my game.

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15 hours ago, CARRERA said:

While I appreciate your posts and this series it kinda is a pity that there is not much insights on how that team actually plays irl and how you try to replicate it on FM

This series is not about replicating real-life tactics. It's just about how I would set up my primary tactic for a particular team in FM19 if I managed them.

In order to replicate someone's RL tactics/style appropriately, I would need to specifically follow that particular team's matches over an extended period, so that I could get familiar enough with all aspects of their play. Otherwise, the replication would likely be erroneous. 

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16 hours ago, Yisz said:

Interesting how you've set them up. Been waiting for this ever since my thread about them. Ended up getting 6th and getting sacked, so didn't bother playing with them anymore

Didn't quite understand. You got sacked playing with this tactic(s), or you got sacked even before this thread was published?

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15 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

i know they arent an EPL team, but is there any chance you could extend this series to show how youd set Napoli up

I like the idea! As soon as I find enough time, I'll do it :thup:

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18 hours ago, Yisz said:

What exactly is the difference between CMa and MEZa? Don't they behave like each other?

Just read the in-game descriptions of both respective roles and you'll see the difference is obvious.

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@Experienced Defender Re-laoded on a new save to try this, as my 4-5-1 had mixed results.

I'm only 2 games in on first season and will update as we go on. 1-0, 2-0

A few issues that I'm monitoring:

Left side attacks so far - When we counter, we have the dribblers in Moura\Son - but they run past the attack\midfield. Eriksen is a potential issue here with comes deep to get ball, so that may play a part in that. That's compounding an issue with Trippier, who's being closed down (No targets in the box).

I'll keep watching for now.

To add - Tousart came in, Wanyama out - Wanyama has been a Yellow\Red card machine for me a few times, and becomes a high risk. Tousart can play both BWM, of Half back - He has plays short simple passes, so I omitted the BMW PI as a result.

Tierney is in as well, Raya as back-up Keeper, KWP is backing up Trippier (I've not really rated Auirier, so he always gets sold!). Ndomoble in for Sissoko. Leaves me light on a runner in CM, but that will be a target in Jan window.

 

Edited by plcarlos
Typo's, Always Typo's

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41 minutes ago, plcarlos said:

Wanyama has been a Yellow\Red card machine for me a few times, and becomes a high risk

You can change his role to CM on support (or carrilero).

 

43 minutes ago, plcarlos said:

Tierney is in as well, Raya as back-up Keeper, KWP is backing up Trippier (I've not really rated Auirier, so he always gets sold!). Ndomoble in for Sissoko. Leaves me light on a runner in CM, but that will be a target in Jan window.

It's important to make sure that all these new players suit the roles in the tactic.

 

46 minutes ago, plcarlos said:

A few issues that I'm monitoring:

Left side attacks so far - When we counter, we have the dribblers in Moura\Son - but they run past the attack\midfield. Eriksen is a potential issue here with comes deep to get ball, so that may play a part in that. That's compounding an issue with Trippier, who's being closed down (No targets in the box).

Unfortunately, I would need to test the tactic myself and see which exact tweaks should be made, but the problem is that I don't know if I will have time to run yet another save besides those I am already managing. Btw, I know that Eriksen has the "Comes deep" trait and that's good. What could be changed is team passing from shorter to standard. And maybe changing Kane's duty to attack (DLFatt).

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10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You can change his role to CM on support (or carrilero).

 

It's important to make sure that all these new players suit the roles in the tactic.

 

Unfortunately, I would need to test the tactic myself and see which exact tweaks should be made, but the problem is that I don't know if I will have time to run yet another save besides those I am already managing. Btw, I know that Eriksen has the "Comes deep" trait and that's good. What could be changed is team passing from shorter to standard. And maybe changing Kane's duty to attack (DLFatt).

Wanyama Left (Part of fixing the wages in the club (We are on the brink in game, so need to move on a few). I will try that on the the BWM Role if I use that and Tousart gets a yellow.

Completely agree that players need to fit the role (Ndomble is a DLP, not a Box to Box, so he'll not get played in that role). Tousart was purchased under that, as I feel he can play the Half back\BWM role. (Again, Limitation on transfer funds drove a lot of my recruitment).

I've created my own issue with a lack of a natural runner bar Dele in the MC slot, but it's on my Jan window list, where I'll look for a Sissoko upgrade.

I'm only 3 games in, and so were now only just both maxed in familiarity, and Fitness, so I'll watch even more over the next game. DLF-A will be my fist change and will monitor it there.

We've just had Arsenal\Watford\Chelsea, so not exactly easy games for me to test, and deceiving as Injuries\Fitness played a huge part in my results.

I've always liked your layout of these threads, hence why I'm trying this one - I don't like changing much until I've had at least 4/5 games to see how the last change has played out

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3 hours ago, plcarlos said:

Completely agree that players need to fit the role (Ndomble is a DLP, not a Box to Box, so he'll not get played in that role)

Don't follow what the game considers his "best" role. Look at his attributes and traits. Most players are capable of playing more than one role. If he is "naturally" a DLP, it does not mean that he cannot be a good BBM. You can post a screenshot of his profile if you want.

And btw, which of the 3 tactics are you using? Or maybe you switch between all of them?

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40 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Don't follow what the game considers his "best" role. Look at his attributes and traits. Most players are capable of playing more than one role. If he is "naturally" a DLP, it does not mean that he cannot be a good BBM. You can post a screenshot of his profile if you want.

And btw, which of the 3 tactics are you using? Or maybe you switch between all of them?

Agreed - I also look at attributes\traits as well over the "full green" which i was guilty of before reading up on here. Hence Ndomble - I've not got him as a BBM due to poor Finishing (7) at the moment. Admittedly I've not looked at what else he could do just yet.

Primary Tactic at the moment - Not had much time to try the variations so far - Winks has been injured, then immediately injured again. Tousart has done well in BWM role, so I'm happy with that.

I'm a bit behind so far, as I'm still setting the club up (Staff\Training), I've made the mistake of not setting up Set Pieces (Almost cost me as Jan took a throw in, which lead to a 1v1, which Lloris saved) Which is Tonight;'s other Task, along with planning Training a bit more (Something i always play with as i like Developing players more than buying top players)

I'll post those screenshots tonight

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@Experienced Defender Ndomble, I'd play as a Playmaker (DLP\AP). I think he's well worth showing as an example that somtimes the Role ratings should always be assesed on Atributes, rather than set in stone.... Mezzala?!! with 7 finishing\8 long shots, no thanks.. Primarly purchased as Winks has Injury issues to consider, and he fit budget\wage bill (I'll sort that later on in the save with other sales).

Tousart - Half back\BWM for me, Currently Training Passing (First Touch I'd like to be a bit better).

Now this does leave me very light in MC Runners...

Although if needed, maybe I could use Eriksen there short term if needed.. (Son would be an IF Left wing for link up, with Sit Narrower) Moura\Lamela on the right (Role undecided as yet)

Lack of Funds and a host of players I always move on make Season 1 a huge challenge

Ndombele.JPG

Tousart.JPG

Edited by plcarlos
Typo's, Always Typo's

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1 hour ago, plcarlos said:

Mezzala?!! with 7 finishing\8 long shots, no thanks.

But who said that he should be played as a mezzala? I didn't even know his attributes until now. Btw, other than finishing and long shots, he has some other attributes that are welcome for a mezzala role. In fact, he can play a number of midfield roles if you ask me.

 

1 hour ago, plcarlos said:

Tousart - Half back\BWM for me,

I agree, he's suitable for both roles :thup:

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I think he meant the ass-man/in-game suitability as I have Ndombele as well and whenever I quick-pick the ass-man always wants him in the MEZ role. Looking forward to seeing your Liverpool one if you progress that way.

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6 hours ago, Riziger said:

I think he meant the ass-man/in-game suitability as I have Ndombele as well and whenever I quick-pick the ass-man always wants him in the MEZ role

Might be. Btw, I never use an ass-man quick pick.

 

6 hours ago, Riziger said:

Looking forward to seeing your Liverpool one if you progress that way.

There could be some tactic for LFC, and potentially a very adventurous one.

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Atimage.thumb.png.aca99fd0f051792da79f89d7c1f04ec7.png

Attached is what i meant when referring to Mezzela... But as the role is also described as a half-winger, I still can't see him as a Mezzela...

One thing i've noticed way too much with the Mez\AP combo was this:

 

image.thumb.jpeg.98130e711e161b160a60314e8ef3877a.jpegimage.thumb.jpeg.a62f74921b7b51dac4e7ac50f2f40a15.jpeg

As we can see the Mez\AP are both in the same space. This is 2 of 9 images from 3 games, and did not include all of the situations This created a reduced down passing option, and Dele was no-where near a threat in the box. Son\Moura were more of a relase than a threat.
Improvement 1 was the IWB going to FBS - This added some depseratly needed width on the left, and variety. I didn't to risk the left flank with an IWB attack\or overlap left. Improvement 2 so far is Dele as a B2B. This makes him more involved in play (It was previously the BWM doing most of that), and he's got into signifiacntly better attacking positions.

Finally, Kane as a DLF was Changed to a CFS. This has him as more of a goal threat. He was often being ran past by Son\Moura who then had to pass it backwards to him. As a CFS, he still gets involved in build up, and has got a few more goals now.
 

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Experienced Defender,

Your DL(Rose/Davies) is an IWB/su, and I am guessing you have opted against a WB/a or a CWB/a (overlapping the AP/s) due to the fact that you have the MCL as a MEZ/a?  However, as I like the overlap on the left (WB/a - AP/s), what role/duty would you have for the MCL ?

This change would then affect the penetration up front, so what would your roles/duties be for your striker etc?

Edited by Codename47

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2 hours ago, Codename47 said:

Your DL(Rose/Davies) is an IWB/su, and I am guessing you have opted against a WB/a or a CWB/a (overlapping the AP/s) due to the fact that you have the MCL as a MEZ/a?  However, as I like the overlap on the left (WB/a - AP/s), what role/duty would you have for the MCL ?

This change would then affect the penetration up front, so what would your roles/duties be for your striker etc

If you want a WB on attack naturally overlapping the AML/APsu, I would moving the MEZat in MCR, while MCL would become a carrilero. Kane would be a DLF on attack, and the AMR IF on support. So the setup would look like this:

DLFat

APsu                                      IFsu

CAR        MEZat

HB

WBat     CDde     CDde     FBsu

SKde

But in that case I would not use any overlap team instructions, because on the left you already have a natural overlap, while on the right the fullback needs to be more conservative to cover for the mezzala and IF.

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3 minutes ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

I’m still a little confused by the mez’s positioning when working in conjunction with an IF. Aren’t they both looking to hit the same half space?

They are supposed to work close to each other, but that's exactly what I want. I tested a MEZatt playing together with both APsu and/or IFsu a number of times, and it really worked nice for me, giving me exactly what I wanted - the two roles working in tandem and keeping the ball before switching it either to the opposite flank or into the box, or the AP sometimes playing a through ball for the MEZ running into the box. Though I did not tried the combo specifically with Spurs, i.e. these two guys (Dele and Eriksen).

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3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

They are supposed to work close to each other, but that's exactly what I want. I tested a MEZatt playing together with both APsu and/or IFsu a number of times, and it really worked nice for me, giving me exactly what I wanted - the two roles working in tandem and keeping the ball before switching it either to the opposite flank or into the box, or the AP sometimes playing a through ball for the MEZ running into the box. Though I did not tried the combo specifically with Spurs, i.e. these two guys (Dele and Eriksen).

I think in some champions league matches, Liverpool played with a mezzala (Milner) on the same side as an Inside Forward (Salah) to great effect. 

 

I have one tactic where i use an Inside Forward on attack and a Mezzala on attack on the same side of the pitch and it works wonders...

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On ‎12‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 22:31, Experienced Defender said:

 

P.S: If you are possibly interested in how I would transform this Spurs tactic into a bit more conservative and counter-attacking version of itself, please let me know :thup:

Yes please.

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Will update more tonight:

Season 1 - 2nd to a Liverpool that smashed everyone, and only lost 2 games. Had the most bizarre champions league with Vs Real Madrid, which was mainly down to them shooting themselves in the foot with Injuries\fatigue\fouls (Goal #1 was a free Kick). FA Cup which was less me, vs more of big teams being knocked out.

One key thing I've not seen: Dele\Erikesen linking up and switching play, or Dele getting played in

Tactically what I've changed:

Dele to a Mez-S - has made him more involved. I'd like more, so may move him to the right side of midfield (the amount of positions Tousart got into that a player with better attacking stats would have done better with.....) - Yes, I'd have to address the Right back role if i did that.

Left full back to FBS (Occasionally IWBS) - Mainly as we lacked width and an attacking option.

Left AP to IFS on occasion (Mainly when i get more counter attacks) - When we had a counter attack and Kane has the ball centrally, the right pass was to the Right wing - To an open IF-A who had more space, and defenders moving left.... Instead the ball went to the AP on the Left, the same direction the defenders were  going to and would therefore congest. A Switch to the other flank would have fixed that, but continually failed to happen*

*Overlap right - Mixed on this - I took this off with the aim to reduce 70% Attacks going to the right - But another reason it was not working is that I did not see Dele\others attacking the box from the left.... Crossing still sucks in that if a player gets the ball to feet, they take the ball in-field, and get blocked. where the ball is passed in front of them and they run onto it and cross, that works, and creates chances (Header, or the clearance to Midfield runner).

Shorter passing to standard - Something that i should review, but I always see an issue where players hold the ball up, and don't go forward, or pass, allowing opposition to get back into position. I'm not talking counter-attack here, but I'd like to see something a bit more progressive.  This may well be down to the use of the AP\DLP  - Do these have a tendency to hold up the ball sometimes?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Codename47 said:
On 12/05/2019 at 23:31, Experienced Defender said:

 

P.S: If you are possibly interested in how I would transform this Spurs tactic into a bit more conservative and counter-attacking version of itself, please let me know :thup:

Yes please.

DLFat

IFsu                                     Wat

MEZat    BWMsu

HB

IWBsu    CDde   BPDde    FBsu

SKde

Positive

- standard passing, play out of defence, higher tempo, hit early crosses, be more expressive, pass into space, overlap right

- counter, distribute quickly

- standard DL, lower LOE, use tighter marking

Player instructions:

DR/FBsu - hold position

DM and both CMs - mark tighter

DLFat - roam from position

 

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My tactic is sorta similar to yours however we struggle to create chances and when we do Harry Kane misses some absolute sitters I’m talking free headers in the box 1 on 1 and so on defensively we’re relatively solid but as you’d expect coming up against teams who restrict space against us I’m finding it hard to break them down I have rabiot on hold position to cover for trips bombing forward and I tinker with close down more with my 4 most advanced players. If you remember I had something similar with Everton but we was always 3rd top scorers in the league with Tottenham I was like 6/7 anything you’d tweak and I’d like Kane to be my main goal scorer hence when he’s on dlf(a) 

BB439A66-21A9-42EB-9CAD-FA6A779EB6A1.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Breezybaby1 said:

BB439A66-21A9-42EB-9CAD-FA6A779EB6A1.jpeg

 

1 hour ago, Breezybaby1 said:

My tactic is sorta similar to yours however we struggle to create chances

This tactic is not similar to mine. Only the formation is same and a couple of roles as well, but everything else is different. I for example would never pair a winger (role) with FB on attack, because I don't want to have two roles who predominantly look to cross the ball on the same flank. So when I use a FB on attack, I can pair him either with an IF or AP (sometimes maybe TQ). And there are a number of other differences as well.

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8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

This tactic is not similar to mine. Only the formation is same and a couple of roles as well, but everything else is different. I for example would never pair a winger (role) with FB on attack, because I don't want to have two roles who predominantly look to cross the ball on the same flank. So when I use a FB on attack, I can pair him either with an IF or AP (sometimes maybe TQ). And there are a number of other differences as well.

Fair enough so would you say I’m mine is one dimensional? Or can you imagine where I’m struggling? 

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35 minutes ago, Breezybaby1 said:

Fair enough so would you say I’m mine is one dimensional? Or can you imagine where I’m struggling? 

First, there isn't much logic in using the same tactic for Everton and Spurs. I respect Evrerton, they are a good team. But Spurs are a top side, while Everton is not.

I would not say that your tactic is one-dimensional, it just lacks a clear identity in terms of how you want to play and why.

I devised as many as 3 variants of the tactic in the opening post based on my analysis of the Spurs current squad, so you can use it to get some ideas. You can also take a look at replies to see how people improved the tactic by tweaking it. More precisely - @plcarlos

 

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2 hours ago, Breezybaby1 said:

My tactic is sorta similar to yours however we struggle to create chances and when we do Harry Kane misses some absolute sitters I’m talking free headers in the box 1 on 1 and so on defensively we’re relatively solid but as you’d expect coming up against teams who restrict space against us I’m finding it hard to break them down I have rabiot on hold position to cover for trips bombing forward and I tinker with close down more with my 4 most advanced players. If you remember I had something similar with Everton but we was always 3rd top scorers in the league with Tottenham I was like 6/7 anything you’d tweak and I’d like Kane to be my main goal scorer hence when he’s on dlf(a) 

BB439A66-21A9-42EB-9CAD-FA6A779EB6A1.jpeg

With Eriksen\Dele\Rabiot in Midfield, then I'd add the be more expresive vs the teams you struggle to break down they all have the technical\mental stats for it.

I've kept the Half Back Role - They sit deeper than a DM-D and offer a other passing option.

I agree with above that it looks like lacking an Identity. IMHO - That tactic will look to cross a lot, but who to? Kane will drop deep in DLF-A, Eriksen kind of has that trait (comes deep to get ball) already, leaving Dele as the main supporting attacker, who along with Kane, who will be deeper than normal.

If we factor in pace as well, it's something that Dele\Kane\Eriksen don't have - One of my frustrations early on was as quoted earlier:

On 30/05/2019 at 19:06, plcarlos said:

Finally, Kane as a DLF was Changed to a CFS. This has him as more of a goal threat. He was often being ran past by Son\Moura who then had to pass it backwards to him. As a CFS, he still gets involved in build up, and has got a few more goals now.
 

The above happened with Son\Moura as IF-A Roles (Aimed at bringing them both closer to link up with Kane.

Lamela did a really good job as an IFS, which temporarily fixed that issue for me. (I then Fleeced a Chinese team who took him for £19M+ some add-ons (Inital offer was only £5M) allowing me to buy Zivkovic).

I'd suggest identifying how you want this team to play. As Per above the lack of pace is a bit of an issue with wingers, as the other players struggle to get up in support quick enough.

I wanted to try this as I've always liked the layout and theories that @Experienced Defender lays out - Bear in mind this was aimed more at a progressive passing game, which is something I planned on trying after a 4-5-1 tactic on my last save created some crazy dominating games (as well as some shockers which exposed mistakes!).

Just always remeber that a simple change to one role is likely to have a knock on effect to another. Since I assesed roles and their combo's\knock on effects my tweaks have been much better. I.E don't change Kane to as CFS just coz I did and had it working - Bear in mind my tactic at the time was very close to the origional here.

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4 hours ago, plcarlos said:

With Eriksen\Dele\Rabiot in Midfield, then I'd add the be more expresive vs the teams you struggle to break down they all have the technical\mental stats for it.

I've kept the Half Back Role - They sit deeper than a DM-D and offer a other passing option.

I agree with above that it looks like lacking an Identity. IMHO - That tactic will look to cross a lot, but who to? Kane will drop deep in DLF-A, Eriksen kind of has that trait (comes deep to get ball) already, leaving Dele as the main supporting attacker, who along with Kane, who will be deeper than normal.

If we factor in pace as well, it's something that Dele\Kane\Eriksen don't have - One of my frustrations early on was as quoted earlier:

The above happened with Son\Moura as IF-A Roles (Aimed at bringing them both closer to link up with Kane.

Lamela did a really good job as an IFS, which temporarily fixed that issue for me. (I then Fleeced a Chinese team who took him for £19M+ some add-ons (Inital offer was only £5M) allowing me to buy Zivkovic).

I'd suggest identifying how you want this team to play. As Per above the lack of pace is a bit of an issue with wingers, as the other players struggle to get up in support quick enough.

I wanted to try this as I've always liked the layout and theories that @Experienced Defender lays out - Bear in mind this was aimed more at a progressive passing game, which is something I planned on trying after a 4-5-1 tactic on my last save created some crazy dominating games (as well as some shockers which exposed mistakes!).

Just always remeber that a simple change to one role is likely to have a knock on effect to another. Since I assesed roles and their combo's\knock on effects my tweaks have been much better. I.E don't change Kane to as CFS just coz I did and had it working - Bear in mind my tactic at the time was very close to the origional here.

Well for this team again I want Kane to be the main scorer and rely on nice passing play and not so much crossing I’m bad at explaining  but that’s pretty much how I want it to go my thinking was that alli was gonna go up and support Kane and son was a winger just to provide width so that it doesn’t become ridiculously easy to defend that’s my best way of explaining it sorry! 

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11 hours ago, Breezybaby1 said:

Well for this team again I want Kane to be the main scorer and rely on nice passing play and not so much crossing I’m bad at explaining  but that’s pretty much how I want it to go my thinking was that alli was gonna go up and support Kane and son was a winger just to provide width so that it doesn’t become ridiculously easy to defend that’s my best way of explaining it sorry!  

In that case, first thing to note is although you want not so much crossing, yet have 2 roles that cross more - W-S and FB-A. This is where I'd start.

Son also has cuts inside and moves into channels - 2 PPMs which make him naturally play as an IF. Add to that the Long shots stat, and I'd want him closer to Kane for support and an extra goal threat.

In the first case here, I'd change Son to an IF-S and PI Trippier to run wide with ball (If it's not already coded in). This means you only change one role, and not too much. Just as crucially, you'll be able to see if Son\Kane can link up to help both be a better goal threat. Watch the next 5 games on full if you can and note what you see them do. In the Screenshot I posted Earlier on MEZ\AP play, I had 25 images from 3 matches. (Reduced to 9 due to basically the same positions).

If your happy with that, you could experiment with Trippier as an WB-S, although you should pay attention to the increased starting position this will create for him (It may require tweaks to the right CB, or DLP to assist defensively).

Kane is extremely hard to get as Main scorer, so I've evolved to making him an all round goal threat (Utilizing his vision to create assists). Hence why he's a CF-S  or DLF-A for me - But please note that both of those options change the other roles around him.

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12 hours ago, Breezybaby1 said:

I want Kane to be the main scorer and rely on nice passing play and not so much crossing

Then play him as a poacher. As for crossing, I fear you'll have to see a bit more crosses than you would prefer. Simply, you cannot have everything at once.

You may try something like this:

PO

APsu                                    Wat

CAR       MEZsu

HB

FBat     CDde    BPDde     WBsu

SKde

Positive / standard passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, fairly narrow, be more expressive / counter, counter-press, distribute to CBs and FBs / higher DL, standard LOE, use offside trap

Player instructions:

Kane (PO) - move into channels

HB, CAR & MEZ - mark tighter

MEZsu - take more risks

WBsu - sit narrower

APsu - roam from position, sit narrower

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1 hour ago, plcarlos said:

In that case, first thing to note is although you want not so much crossing, yet have 2 roles that cross more - W-S and FB-A. This is where I'd start.

Son also has cuts inside and moves into channels - 2 PPMs which make him naturally play as an IF. Add to that the Long shots stat, and I'd want him closer to Kane for support and an extra goal threat.

In the first case here, I'd change Son to an IF-S and PI Trippier to run wide with ball (If it's not already coded in). This means you only change one role, and not too much. Just as crucially, you'll be able to see if Son\Kane can link up to help both be a better goal threat. Watch the next 5 games on full if you can and note what you see them do. In the Screenshot I posted Earlier on MEZ\AP play, I had 25 images from 3 matches. (Reduced to 9 due to basically the same positions).

If your happy with that, you could experiment with Trippier as an WB-S, although you should pay attention to the increased starting position this will create for him (It may require tweaks to the right CB, or DLP to assist defensively).

Kane is extremely hard to get as Main scorer, so I've evolved to making him an all round goal threat (Utilizing his vision to create assists). Hence why he's a CF-S  or DLF-A for me - But please note that both of those options change the other roles around him.

Interested to know why you think Kane is hard to get as a goal scorer and no I didn’t like the dele Eriksen combo they played nice passes together but it was unless, thinking if I use son as if(s)and dele on mez(a) they’re gonna get in each others way sorta like Eriksen as those role attack half spaces 

 

38 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Then play him as a poacher. As for crossing, I fear you'll have to see a bit more crosses than you would prefer. Simply, you cannot have everything at once.

You may try something like this:

PO

APsu                                    Wat

CAR       MEZsu

HB

FBat     CDde    BPDde     WBsu

SKde

Positive / standard passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, fairly narrow, be more expressive / counter, counter-press, distribute to CBs and FBs / higher DL, standard LOE, use offside trap

Player instructions:

Kane (PO) - move into channels

HB, CAR & MEZ - mark tighter

MEZsu - take more risks

WBsu - sit narrower

APsu - roam from position, sit narrower

Will give this set up a try might take Eriksen off that ap cause I feel cause he’s the magnet certain attack’s get messed up 

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1 hour ago, Breezybaby1 said:

Will give this set up a try might take Eriksen off that ap cause I feel cause he’s the magnet certain attack’s get messed up 

You can try him as IF on support, but I am not sure how is he going to fare in that role.

And you can add shorter passing in the team instructions, to make attacks even more patient so that they all work for Kane.

The problem is that you are likely to seriously struggle against defensive sides if you insist on focusing on one player as your main scorer. Kane is a great player though, so let's hope it's gonna work.

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Ok so I made little tweaks to the team tactics and we started of just how I wanted through balls to Kane nice little close inside the box you name it we was scoring that goal. Unfortunately hit a little brick wall now and all the chances is coming from crosses teams are now defending narrow against us with sometimes a deep line I wondering if I should have another midfield runner

234820F8-E160-4D1B-AF9D-05881E431494.jpeg

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Great posts @Experienced Defender I have noticed all 3 parts, have the same formation, for variety variations would it be possible for to do a thread on say a flat 4-4-2 ? or 4-1-2-3-1 or both?

Edited by lim

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22 hours ago, lim said:

would it be possible for to do a thread on say a flat 4-4-2 ? or 4-1-2-3-1 or both?

You mean for specifically for Tottenham or in general?

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28 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

You mean for specifically for Tottenham or in general?

 

No it wouldn't have to be for Tottenham I just meant in general. 

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5 hours ago, lim said:

 

No it wouldn't have to be for Tottenham I just meant in general. 

Yes, it's possible of course. When I have enough time, I could do a thread on how one may set up tactics for different styles of play using a specific formation (442 or 4231, or both).

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There's a huge difference between what makes sense and what works in game.

My tactic is very similar to yours (except for the IWBs - I use WBs). I can't get Kane to score. He averages 6.30. I rage quite after my team fails to score a goal in 3 games.

I download and plug in one of Knap's tactics which does not make any sense whatsoever and which my players are not suited for. Very attacking mentality, counter-press, much higher defensive line, extremely urgent press, get stuck in, tighter marking, no DM, none of the CMs is on defensive duty, both full backs are CWB-A! Suicidal, surely. I proceed to the first match (away vs Southampton who are in excellent form) with zero tactical familiarity. 4-0 win.

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10 minutes ago, Ein said:

I download and plug in one of Knap's tactics which does not make any sense whatsoever and which my players are not suited for. Very attacking mentality, counter-press, much higher defensive line, extremely urgent press, get stuck in, tighter marking, no DM, none of the CMs is on defensive duty, both full backs are CWB-A! Suicidal, surely. I proceed to the first match (away vs Southampton who are in excellent form) with zero tactical familiarity. 4-0 win

Well, that's exactly because it's an exploit plug-n-play tactic. So you virtually answered your own question. My tactics are not - and will never be - plug-n-play, and especially not exploit. I have no problem with people who use these exploit/pnp tactics. All I wanna say is that it's not my cup of tea. 

 

14 minutes ago, Ein said:

My tactic is very similar to yours (except for the IWBs - I use WBs). I can't get Kane to score. He averages 6.30. I rage quite after my team fails to score a goal in 3 games.

First, I never create tactics for a single player, even if he is my best player or the "main" striker. I don't care who will score most goals as long as we are getting good results.

Second - as I emphasized in the opening post - this (like any other tactic I devise) is not plug-and-play. And as I also emphasized, I myself haven't tested the tactic (none of the 3), so it would likely require some tweaks. After all, I make tweaks even to my tactics that I have tested and that work very nicely for me, let alone those that are rather "theoretical" (like this one). 

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I didn't use your tactic. It's similar to yours because it's based on the players' attributes and what "makes sense" (the game's descriptions of roles and mentalities). I tweak my tactic a lot as well based on what I see in the game. I never suggested I created the tactic for a single player.

---

Exploits are the elephant in the room. They present a huge problem for the game. If you do well, you can't actually be sure if it's down to your tactics working well or because you stumbled upon an "exploit". Take BusttheNet's Liquid tactic. Very attacking, home and away. Is it a "normal" tactic or an "exploit"? The boundary is not as clear as you suggest.
 

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10 hours ago, Ein said:

Exploits are the elephant in the room. They present a huge problem for the game. If you do well, you can't actually be sure if it's down to your tactics working well or because you stumbled upon an "exploit". Take BusttheNet's Liquid tactic. Very attacking, home and away. Is it a "normal" tactic or an "exploit"? The boundary is not as clear as you suggest

It's very simple. Exploit tactics are those that work perfectly in FM but in real-life football would lead to a disaster (and no RL manager play that way because such tactics make no sense from the perspective of football logic).

I don't think Rashidi's liquid is an exploit. It is attacking in terms of mentality, but has plenty of support duties and only the mezzala is on attack. It is a risky tactic though, but that's why he uses it with a top team like LFC. With Stalybridge, he makes tweaks in order to adapt the tactic to the team. If it was an exploit, he would not have to make any tweaks whatsoever.

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14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

It's very simple. Exploit tactics are those that work perfectly in FM but in real-life football would lead to a disaster (and no RL manager play that way because such tactics make no sense from the perspective of football logic).

I don't think Rashidi's liquid is an exploit. It is attacking in terms of mentality, but has plenty of support duties and only the mezzala is on attack. It is a risky tactic though, but that's why he uses it with a top team like LFC. With Stalybridge, he makes tweaks in order to adapt the tactic to the team. If it was an exploit, he would not have to make any tweaks whatsoever.

He also uses it and does extremely well with Torino while on holiday.

According to common sense and the in-game description, very attacking is to be used when desperately chasing a goal. I'm seeing many FM tacticians now using it as a default.

He uses a very attacking mentality but then uses support roles and extremely short passing/very low tempo. Why is that better than positive mentality and more expansive roles/passing/tempo?
I was reading a thread by another prominent tactician. He uses no attacking roles to increase the overall team mentality. Why is that better than using some attacking roles and a higher overall mentality?
These are the kind of obscure mechanisms and tweaks that make no obvious sense and relate purely to the game's abstractions.

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I've noticed an awful lot of tactics around this year are based on an attacking philosophy and I'm yet to see anything on the forums that seems to be based on balanced or lower.  In FM17 I had a great 4132 tactic that was balanced mentality with quite a few support roles.  Transferred all settings over to FM19 and I couldn't even get a shot on goal with it let alone a goal.  Swapped roles, swapped mentalities tinkered here and there and I cannot get a 4132 to work at all in an attacking sense.  The reason why I think is that it relied on strikers scoring goals (their job) and strikers movement is clearly off in 19 thus why seemingly most tactics doing the rounds are either 442 or 451 or similar using wide players to get the goals.  FM usually has certain formations that work - don't work - on each release but 19 is the first that I have noticed all have an attacking mentality it seems and whatever the formation/strategy they all seem to play the same.

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On 11/06/2019 at 07:42, Ein said:

He also uses it and does extremely well with Torino while on holiday

As far as I remember, with Torino he does not use the Liquid but Galileo 415. Which, unlike the Liquid, might be a sort of exploit.

 

On 11/06/2019 at 07:42, Ein said:

He uses a very attacking mentality but then uses support roles and extremely short passing/very low tempo. Why is that better than positive mentality and more expansive roles/passing/tempo?
I was reading a thread by another prominent tactician. He uses no attacking roles to increase the overall team mentality. Why is that better than using some attacking roles and a higher overall mentality?

There is no better or worse (right or wrong). A lot of different tactics can be successful as well as unsuccessful. There is no rule that you should play on attacking mentality and low tempo or on a lower mentality and higher tempo, or having more or less of these or those duties... Very different approaches can both work and fail. The point is that you know exactly what you want - and whether your players are capable of playing that way - and then how to translate that into a tactic via proper tactical settings (and selection of suitable players).

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