4-4-2 - Modern (Control and Attack Space)

[kr10]

Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/file/b8czp3...odern.fmf/file

Hello All,

Big FM and football fan for many years, particularly on the tactics front. By far the most intriguing element of the game for me. I've spent countless hours understanding, research, and applying tactical concepts from here and from real world write-ups to continually improve my knowledge, whilst at the same time building my own tactical philosophy. I've created many tactics over the years in FM, and have done most of what the game has to offer, including long-term LLM saves. However, the tactic that I created in FM 19 for my beloved Milan has been by far the most effective, and it's not even close.

What brought me so much joy about this tactic is not just the results, but the fact that it just makes sense from a fundamental standpoint - I am talking about intelligent and cohesive movement, opening up and exploiting of space, defensive cover and balance, and putting players in the best possible positions to succeed. 

The tactic: a 4-4-2, with a modern twist





My tactical philosophies and how I used it to build the tactic

1. Build-up play: Variability. In short, I want a least three distinct routes to goal. Through the left flank, through the center, and through the right flank. I want each route to goal to be different - so, you'll never see me create a tactic that is symmetric across role and duty combinations on both flanks. I do this primarily to improve consistency of results, and make it harder for the AI to defend against me. When you have the same type of attacks going on in both flanks, it becomes much easier to defend against. Counter with fast wing-play? Sit back and defend. Possession based relying on overloading the central areas? Push up and restrict space. By varying routes to goal, it becomes much harder for the AI to game plan against you. 

2. Attacking Philosophy: Attack Space. I believe in creating and exploiting space through the intelligent and cohesive movement of players, in a carefully drawn out manner, rather than a ball-to-feet possession based approach. More Klopp than Pep, if you will. To do this, you need 3 things 1)Players creating space for others to exploit 2)Players making runs into the space 3)Having the right players in the right positions to supply the players attacking space. Creating this requires a careful understanding of the movement of the players, who they function with each other, and how it affects the overall balance of the team.

3. Defensive Philosophy: Zonal High-Block. As a Milan fan, Sacchi's high-pressing zonal 4-4-2 was certainly an inspiration for this tactic. In FM, I have used a control setting, with slightly higher pressing and closing down. Any higher, and i've found that the team loses it's defensive shape and gets pulled out of position, making a cohesive offside trap impossible. Any lower, and balls get played in behind your defensive line too easily. Also, I do not select tighter marking because in my mind, this goes against the philosophy of an offside trap, where defenders need to be in a line marking their zones and not running after players. 

Building the 4-4-2

1. I decided early on that I wanted to employ a Wide Playmaker, and build the tactic around him. To do this, I needed a few key elements to work out: 1)Create space for the WP to operate in 2)Provide enough runners off the ball, from different starting points and in different directions, to give him enough passing options. 

With the wide playmaker cutting inside, I knew I needed an attacking full-back to take advantage of the space he was vacating on the flank, and also to provide a threat out-wide. An attacking full-back was the ideal choice here; they work beautifully together, each creating space for the other to exploit. 

2. With a wide playmaker and an overlapping attacking full-back on one flank, I knew I wanted a different route of attacking play on the left. The obvious and stable choice here was a winger supported by a less attacking fullback, to maintain balance in the team. A winger attack and full back support was the sensible option. Again, I was looking to balance support and attack duties on both flanks, and create variability in my play. 

3. CM Pairing - this was key to get right. The RCM needed to do 2 things 1)Cover for the attacking full-back and 2)Combine effectively with the WP. A defend duty midfielder was the clear choice here. Firstly, he can cover for the marauding RB, and secondly and more importantly, he wouldn't step on the shoes of the WP, who likes to take up narrow, central positions. A support duty CM wouldn't give the WP enough space to operate in. I decided to go with the CM-d which is a balanced option. the RCM, WP and FB all function beautifully together, creating overlapping triangles that are very hard to track. For the other CM, I knew I needed a support role (from the pairs and combinations guide, so I went for a CM-s, although other support duties should work quite well also. His job was to 1)balance the central midfield 2)link up with the wingers and strikers

4. Striker Pairing: It was key to have one support and one attack duty striker, the question was which duty on which side. After some thought, I decided to go for the attack striker on the right slot, and the defend striker on the left slot. The reasons, again, are related to creating and exploiting space. 1)The attack striker would push up, giving the WP plenty of space to operate in, and also making runs which the WP can feed 2)The support striker can drop deeper, and play in the onrushing winger on the left, or his attack duty strike partner. 

In essence, almost all of the players in the team have been deployed to help create space for teammates playing next to them and/or provide passing opportunities by making runs. For example, the RCM, RB and RCF are all designed to to get the best out of the WP. The whole system works as one.

In short, I have built the tactic around the WP. In possession, he has 5 passing options:

1) Cross-field ball to the attacking winger
2) Ball down the channel for the attack duty striker
3) Overlapping ball to the fullback
4) Safe pass to one of the CMs. 

So, how did the WP do? In short, absolutely staggering. The numbers he consistently put up were better than anything i've ever seen on my FM career:







In addition, he would average 6-7 key passes and 3-4 chances created every game. It was beautiful to watch, I have never seen a tactic getting so much out of one player before. 

The results are shown below. The first season I used the tactic I only conceded 1 goal in the league. I have attached a SS of that season as well as the most recent season. In addition, I have shown some results from the champions league run as well:









Below are the screenshots of my club captain and main striker, who I got when he was 17. He is now 34 and the leader of my team on and off the pitch





And below are the stats of my starting left winger, another player who thrives in this system:





Putting it all together:

Whilst I undoubtedly have a world class team, this is a tactic that I expect to work well across all levels, which is why I wanted to share it and get your feedback. The reasoning is that, from a standpoint of fundamentals, it just makes a lot of sense and works well:

1. 3 players making attacking runs, all from different stata (Demand)
2. Each attacking player has at least 2 support/defend duty players to feed them (Supply)
3. No one is running into each others' toes; everyone's movement is designed to give each other space to operate in
4. Balanced defensive philosophy without any major weaknesses (save for the space between attack and defense)
5. Large variability in play - Standard wing play on the left, midfield overloads and overlapping play down the right, and two strikers supporting each other in the center

Required player attributes

Note: The information below (including footedness) is based on the above screenshots. However, you could easily use a mirror image of the tactic instead with opposite footedness, if your players are better suited.

GK: Nothing specific
CB: In addition to normal key CB stats, good teamwork stat is key for an effective offside trap
RB: Attacking RB with good work rate, passing, and crossing. PPM - Get forward when possible
LB: Defensive LB with a focus on good passing stats as he will get the ball a lot. PPM - stays back at all times, isn't expected to overlap
CMs: Both CMs absolutely must be all rounded with high work rate (15+). This is the best way to make the 2 man mid work. In addition, the CM(s) will benefit from vision, flair, passing, and long shots to make an attacking contribution.
ML: Left footed winger with crossing, dribbling, and finishing (he will find himself in goal scoring positions reasonably often)
MR: Left footed play maker. PPMs - Dictates tempo, tries killer balls often, cuts inside from right wing
Left striker: Support duty striker, with good balance and strength, in addition to finishing and creativity attributes. Height is a bonus, right footed preferred. 
Right striker: Attack duty striker, with good finishing, composure, off the ball, heading, speed, and decent jumping (12+). Right footed player highly preferred to take first time shots and play in crosses from the channels

It would be great if poeple could try it out and let me know their thoughts, I have personally very curious to see if this tactic works at all levels. Thank you for taking the time to read it.

Edited May 11, 2019 by kr10

[MegaAlbin_88]

Hi! This look real interesting, gonna give this a go with my swedish team Ifk gothenburg! 

And thumbs up for a beautiful write up!  

Does the winger and Wide playmaker need to be left footed?

Do you use any Oi's and do you change mentality against top teams or always play the same?  

[kr10]

28 minutes ago, MegaAlbin_88 said:

Hi! This look real interesting, gonna give this a go with my swedish team Ifk gothenburg! 

And thumbs up for a beautiful write up!  

Does the winger and Wide playmaker need to be left footed?

Do you use any Oi's and do you change mentality against top teams or always play the same?  

Thank you, I hope the results are great! For this tactic yes, you want both to be left footed. But you could also do the mirror image of the tactic (swapping all player roles accordingly), and use a right footed winger and WP. Just depends on the players you have! I’ll also add that it helps to have the attack duty striker on the same side as his strong foot (in this case, right footed). 

[DarklinkCL]

Please post a mirror version of the tactic  thanks!

[kr10]

4 hours ago, DarklinkCL said:

Please post a mirror version of the tactic  thanks!

I am currently traveling without access to my laptop, but it would look something like this:

AFa DLFs
WPs CMd CMs Wa
FBa CD CD FBs
SKd

Apologies that I can’t post a link or screenshot at the moment. If you have any other questions, please feel free to reach out. Good luck and looking forward to your results! 

 

[DarklinkCL]

Should I mirror the player instructions as well? Or you didn't add any (apart from the standard ones)?

[kr10]

32 minutes ago, DarklinkCL said:

Should I mirror the player instructions as well? Or you didn't add any (apart from the standard ones)?

I don’t think PIs are really needed, maybe shoot less often on a couple of players if you find them shooting too much

[Bakiano]

Do you use any SUS version of this tactic? Btw is it a nice tactic so far, I am using the mirror shaped tactic but it works fine.

[kr10]

8 minutes ago, Bakiano said:

Do you use any SUS version of this tactic? Btw is it a nice tactic so far, I am using the mirror shaped tactic but it works fine.

I don’t tweak this tactic, but when looking to close out games I sometimes switch to a 4-1-4-1 against a strong team away from home in CL that plays a 4-2-3-1. 

[DarklinkCL]

20 minutes ago, kr10 said:

I don’t tweak this tactic, but when looking to close out games I sometimes switch to a 4-1-4-1 against a strong team away from home in CL that plays a 4-2-3-1. 

Which one of the two strikers do you usually remove?
And which role for the DM?

Cheers

[kr10]

10 minutes ago, DarklinkCL said:

Which one of the two strikers do you usually remove?
And which role for the DM?

Cheers

The 4-1-4-1 is setup as follows

————-PF(s)

W(a) CM(a) CM(s) IW(a)

————-DLP(d)

FBs   CD      CD      WBs

similar high press philosophy, I don’t find sitting back to work as well as I’d like. 

  

[peq]

Experimenting with a similar tactic, 442 using a winger and a wide playmaker. Pretty much balanced the same way with an af and attacking fullback on the wp side. I use a dlf or cf on support on the other. 

Both my wp and deep forward produce an amazing amount of key passes and chances created. Teams rarely manage to shut down both.

I do, however, have a hard time getting my af going. While producing a lot of quality chances in the box or one on ones for him, he rarely puts them away. I've tried different players but the result is the same.

Instead it's the winger, supporting mid or deep forward scoring (wp to deep forward making a run from deep being a common occurrence, or a cross to the far post).

For defence I mostly concede from set pieces or counters/crosses to far post. 

For sitting deep i agree, opposition wingers/midfielders just dribble through the lines and score/square it for a tap in. 

So, a few questions;

Any idea how to get the attacking forward working? He has service but the position rarely performs.

Do you manage to shut down crosses to far post, or atleast cover for them?

Peq

[kr10]

9 hours ago, peq said:

Experimenting with a similar tactic, 442 using a winger and a wide playmaker. Pretty much balanced the same way with an af and attacking fullback on the wp side. I use a dlf or cf on support on the other. 

Both my wp and deep forward produce an amazing amount of key passes and chances created. Teams rarely manage to shut down both.

I do, however, have a hard time getting my af going. While producing a lot of quality chances in the box or one on ones for him, he rarely puts them away. I've tried different players but the result is the same.

Instead it's the winger, supporting mid or deep forward scoring (wp to deep forward making a run from deep being a common occurrence, or a cross to the far post).

For defence I mostly concede from set pieces or counters/crosses to far post. 

For sitting deep i agree, opposition wingers/midfielders just dribble through the lines and score/square it for a tap in. 

So, a few questions;

Any idea how to get the attacking forward working? He has service but the position rarely performs.

Do you manage to shut down crosses to far post, or atleast cover for them?

Peq

Great to hear, the number of key passes and style of football is indeed very exciting to watch. 

 

1. Regarding the AF - I use a PF(s) instead of a DLF (s) or CF(s), since the latter 2 roles are instructed to "move into channels", while the PF stays more central. I found that when using a DLF or CF, they would pull wide to the wing, and be too far from the AF to link up properly (the AF also has move into channels, so I used to end up with 2 strikers both moving into their respective channels, with too much horizontal space between them).

I found that when I switched to a PF(s) for the support slot, he stayed more central and linked up with the AF better. This could be one option to get more out of the AF.

The second could be to add "roam from position" to the AF, hopefully helping him get a bit more involved and score more.

The third option is to use a tall forward good at heading, since this tactic produces a lot of crosses to the AF.

For reference, my AF is my top scorer most seasons, although the support striker isn't too far behind. 

2. Defensively, I have found this tactic to be extremely strong with the right press and defensive line settings. Are you using the same instructions in my tactic in this regard? Also, you can use the set piece tactics I uploaded, I found those to be quite good, especially against corners. 

To answer your point, I haven't used any specific tactics to prevent the far post goal - I suspect it's a matter of getting enough pressure onto the midfielders/wingers to prevent the crosses coming in in the first place, plus hard working midfielders and full back who can get into position quickly. 

 

Edited May 15, 2019 by kr10

[DarklinkCL]

Ok, 10 official games in, and I must say I'm not happy at all. 11 actually, as I just drew 0-0 in a horrible CL group stage game against AS Monaco at home.

As you can see, I already lost 3 games, including two shocking home defeats against a relegation team (Brescia) and title rivals of juventus. Last season I lost 4 games in total.

In general, most goals don't even come from the tactic itself unfortunately, but rather from individual piece of skills by my world-class players, like set pieces. I struggle a lot to create chances, and my defense is super vulnerable against long and through balls. 90% of the games I always concede to my opponent at least 2-3 one on ones against my keeper, which is really bad. I have really good players so I don't honestly understand how you could possibly only concede one goal in an entire season.

Richarlison, my wide playmaker, is playing ok-ish. But nothing compared to last 2 seasons, when he was one of my team's superstars with many goals and a ton of assists. Chiesa, on the other flank, is alright I guess but I would expect more from one of the best wingers in the game.

Amine Gouri, my support forward, is one of the best performers with 7 goals, but his attacking partner Mauro Icardi has been horrible, barely touching the ball during games. I can see that this issue about the AF forward was already raised and I can only agree.

I really wanna like this tactic, I really do: its creator seems really proud of it, and the opening post is great, but it's not really working like I had wished for me
I'll keep using it until the winter break, as my Champions League run shouldn't be jeopardized even if I keep playing so bad and I don't really care about the league too much, then I'll decide whether to keep it or change to something else.

UPDATE: After another home defeat I have decided to drop this tactic as it's simply not worth it to wait.

Edited May 17, 2019 by DarklinkCL

[Sinbad7104]

Working well for me with a Leeds team I took over in 25/26. Tempted to start a new save and give it a go from the get go. 

[thomasbey]

I am testing it with Bournemouth, halfway the season now (7h), I will post screenshots when I'm finished with the season! 

[kr10]

On 17/05/2019 at 07:55, DarklinkCL said:

Ok, 10 official games in, and I must say I'm not happy at all. 11 actually, as I just drew 0-0 in a horrible CL group stage game against AS Monaco at home.

As you can see, I already lost 3 games, including two shocking home defeats against a relegation team (Brescia) and title rivals of juventus. Last season I lost 4 games in total.

In general, most goals don't even come from the tactic itself unfortunately, but rather from individual piece of skills by my world-class players, like set pieces. I struggle a lot to create chances, and my defense is super vulnerable against long and through balls. 90% of the games I always concede to my opponent at least 2-3 one on ones against my keeper, which is really bad. I have really good players so I don't honestly understand how you could possibly only concede one goal in an entire season.

Richarlison, my wide playmaker, is playing ok-ish. But nothing compared to last 2 seasons, when he was one of my team's superstars with many goals and a ton of assists. Chiesa, on the other flank, is alright I guess but I would expect more from one of the best wingers in the game.

Amine Gouri, my support forward, is one of the best performers with 7 goals, but his attacking partner Mauro Icardi has been horrible, barely touching the ball during games. I can see that this issue about the AF forward was already raised and I can only agree.

I really wanna like this tactic, I really do: its creator seems really proud of it, and the opening post is great, but it's not really working like I had wished for me
I'll keep using it until the winter break, as my Champions League run shouldn't be jeopardized even if I keep playing so bad and I don't really care about the league too much, then I'll decide whether to keep it or change to something else.

UPDATE: After another home defeat I have decided to drop this tactic as it's simply not worth it to wait.

Sorry to hear about this :/ I did really hope that it would work for you given the quality of players you had. I just finished another season recently after the 19.3 update and it still works well for me, so I don’t think it is update related.

Perhaps it is more sensitive to tactical familiarity or something else I am not seeing, but I really felt that theory wise (and results wise for me) it should be a winning tactic. Especially given the team that you have. 

 

Apologies from my side :/

[kr10]

On 17/05/2019 at 14:38, Sinbad7104 said:

Working well for me with a Leeds team I took over in 25/26. Tempted to start a new save and give it a go from the get go. 

Great to hear, looking forward to seeing your progress. 

[kr10]

On 17/05/2019 at 16:09, thomasbey said:

I am testing it with Bournemouth, halfway the season now (7h), I will post screenshots when I'm finished with the season! 

Amazing looking forward 

[kr10]

On 17/05/2019 at 07:55, DarklinkCL said:

Ok, 10 official games in, and I must say I'm not happy at all. 11 actually, as I just drew 0-0 in a horrible CL group stage game against AS Monaco at home.

As you can see, I already lost 3 games, including two shocking home defeats against a relegation team (Brescia) and title rivals of juventus. Last season I lost 4 games in total.

In general, most goals don't even come from the tactic itself unfortunately, but rather from individual piece of skills by my world-class players, like set pieces. I struggle a lot to create chances, and my defense is super vulnerable against long and through balls. 90% of the games I always concede to my opponent at least 2-3 one on ones against my keeper, which is really bad. I have really good players so I don't honestly understand how you could possibly only concede one goal in an entire season.

Richarlison, my wide playmaker, is playing ok-ish. But nothing compared to last 2 seasons, when he was one of my team's superstars with many goals and a ton of assists. Chiesa, on the other flank, is alright I guess but I would expect more from one of the best wingers in the game.

Amine Gouri, my support forward, is one of the best performers with 7 goals, but his attacking partner Mauro Icardi has been horrible, barely touching the ball during games. I can see that this issue about the AF forward was already raised and I can only agree.

I really wanna like this tactic, I really do: its creator seems really proud of it, and the opening post is great, but it's not really working like I had wished for me
I'll keep using it until the winter break, as my Champions League run shouldn't be jeopardized even if I keep playing so bad and I don't really care about the league too much, then I'll decide whether to keep it or change to something else.

UPDATE: After another home defeat I have decided to drop this tactic as it's simply not worth it to wait.

I did some more thinking as to potential causes why it isn't working well for you:

1. Since you are playing an AF in the left slot, it will greatly help to have a left footed player there (I found a left footed player didn't perform well in the right striker slot, as I stated in my tactic)

2. Does Icardi have PPM likes to beat offside trap? Imo this PPM always tends to isolates #9s

Both the above should help with your AF striker issue

3. Can you post the PPMs of your players? Certain ones could be making or breaking the tactic. Ex - if your CMs have "like to get forward" or similar, it could be unbalancing the tactic. Same for the attacking full back, you want likes to get forward not stays back at all times, vice versa for the other FB.

4. What is the tactic familiarity? This could be a factor as well. 

In any case up to you whether you want to give it one last try, but imo a combination of the above could be a factor. I am not trying to be defensive here but just trying my best to get this tactic to work well for you  

[Sinbad7104]

4 hours ago, kr10 said:

Great to hear, looking forward to seeing your progress. 

Not a bad season in the end. Was predicted 14th and it would of been better but my main keeper got injured in march and I started shipping goals

 

My advance forward got 19 goals in 30 games, 9 assists too, which aint bad considering he's inconsistent and plays with his back to goal..

 

My Pressing forward got in on the act with 19 goals and 6 assists as well

 

 

very much enjoying the tactic 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Sinbad7104

[kr10]

10 hours ago, Sinbad7104 said:

Not a bad season in the end. Was predicted 14th and it would of been better but my main keeper got injured in march and I started shipping goals

 

My advance forward got 19 goals in 30 games, 9 assists too, which aint bad considering he's inconsistent and plays with his back to goal..

 

My Pressing forward got in on the act with 19 goals and 6 assists as well

 

 

very much enjoying the tactic 

Very nice to hear your success, 7th with your injuries is certainly a good result, I hope you can push on to champions league qualification next year. Good to see that the tactic is working well for you. Also encouraging to see both your strikers performing so well, and getting in amongst the goals and assists. 

Im trying to now figure out why it wasn’t working as well for the above poster. Could you please answer the below questions?

1. Did you use the tactic I posted or the mirror image version?

2. Is the AF on the same side as his strong foot (right striker slot, right foot)?

3. What were the stats of the WP (goals/assists)?

I believe there are some elements that the ME is sensitive to, if I can nail these down it should help adopt the tactic more successfully across the board. One issue, like I said above, could be putting the AF on the opposite side of his strong foot. 

[Sinbad7104]

8 hours ago, kr10 said:

Very nice to hear your success, 7th with your injuries is certainly a good result, I hope you can push on to champions league qualification next year. Good to see that the tactic is working well for you. Also encouraging to see both your strikers performing so well, and getting in amongst the goals and assists. 

Im trying to now figure out why it wasn’t working as well for the above poster. Could you please answer the below questions?

1. Did you use the tactic I posted or the mirror image version?

2. Is the AF on the same side as his strong foot (right striker slot, right foot)?

3. What were the stats of the WP (goals/assists)?

I believe there are some elements that the ME is sensitive to, if I can nail these down it should help adopt the tactic more successfully across the board. One issue, like I said above, could be putting the AF on the opposite side of his strong foot. 

1. I was switching between this original and inverted deepening on who was fit etc.

2. I didn't find it made much difference tbh. He scored goals both sides.

3. I actually left Leeds and took over a Lazio team the wrong side of 30 and in need of a major rebuild. My WP on the left   got 4 goals 5 assists in 18 starts and 6 sub, he however had a lot of traits that could of been detrimental.

My WP on the right, who I retrained there this season, got 2 goals and 1 assist in 15 starts 4 subs. which I'm sure would of been more if he was natural there 

I found often though they were involved in the build up but not necessarily getting the assist.

[DarklinkCL]

Thank you @kr10 I appreciate the support and the willingness to help me

I think this tactic it's best suited for fresh starts, when you can build the team around it. My players are navigated veterans, I cannot impose them a completely new style of play by now by removing/adding new PPMs etc.

Maybe I'll consider giving it another try in my next career

[Het2]

Loving this tactic, thanks. Been trying to build something like this for a while. Its doing very well. I do believe this is built around the WP, so I think its key to have someone who can player their well and naturally. Its going amazing in Sweden save with Forsberg playing the WP. About to start a new save in England with this as the base! 

[Amazingortega]

NIce tactic . Do you think it can work as a 4123? How will you set the players role ? 

[kr10]

On 27/05/2019 at 03:44, Het2 said:

Loving this tactic, thanks. Been trying to build something like this for a while. Its doing very well. I do believe this is built around the WP, so I think its key to have someone who can player their well and naturally. Its going amazing in Sweden save with Forsberg playing the WP. About to start a new save in England with this as the base! 

Very nice to hear that you’re enjoying it. Let me know how it’s performing in England 

[kr10]

On 27/05/2019 at 09:34, Amazingortega said:

NIce tactic . Do you think it can work as a 4123? How will you set the players role ? 

By this you mean the classic 433? 

I’m not sure exactly how this would work, but it’s quite a different tactic. 

Defensively, it’s possible to use a similar philosophy. High press and offside trap. Attacking wise, you can chose to use one player cutting in and one player playing wide, or 2 players cutting in. A tactic I have used for the 4123 that has worked fairly well (but not as good as the 442) is:

W(a) DLF(s) IF(s)

CM(a) CM(s)

     DLP(d)

FB(s) CD CD fb(a)

another option could be to play with a IF and an AP in the wing positions. I haven’t quite got this to work as well as I could like, but you would use a AP and an IF(a). I suppose in this case, the CMs would play more of a holding role and less of an attacking role, but that would need to be experimented with 

[Amazingortega]

3 hours ago, kr10 said:

By this you mean the classic 433? 

I’m not sure exactly how this would work, but it’s quite a different tactic. 

Defensively, it’s possible to use a similar philosophy. High press and offside trap. Attacking wise, you can chose to use one player cutting in and one player playing wide, or 2 players cutting in. A tactic I have used for the 4123 that has worked fairly well (but not as good as the 442) is:

W(a) DLF(s) IF(s)

CM(a) CM(s)

     DLP(d)

FB(s) CD CD fb(a)

another option could be to play with a IF and an AP in the wing positions. I haven’t quite got this to work as well as I could like, but you would use a AP and an IF(a). I suppose in this case, the CMs would play more of a holding role and less of an attacking role, but that would need to be experimented with 

Thanks for the idea . I’ll work on it and let you know if it works out . Your 442 was really good tho 

[Sinbad7104]

Do you think changing the striker roles would make much difference as long as 1 is support 1 attack? I tend to find my strikers go hot and cold no matter who I use really.

[kr10]

1 hour ago, Sinbad7104 said:

Do you think changing the striker roles would make much difference as long as 1 is support 1 attack? I tend to find my strikers go hot and cold no matter who I use really.

I think it’s better to have the attack duty striker on the side of the WP. The reason is that a support striker would drop deeper, into the space which the WP would look to occupy. In addition, the support duty striker should be able to play in the winger on his side better. 

For the original formation, I’ve found that 2 right footed strikers tends to works best. The AF is able to cross/take first time shots better being right footed, and the support striker tends to dribble toward the center of the pitch (rather than towards the flank), linking up better with his strike partner.

any PPMs that you think could be causing issues? 

[Sinbad7104]

I hear that but what meant was the actual roles, So maybe changing the Pressing Forward to a False Nine etc.

It could be due to ppms but I don't think so as I've used different strikers and had similar issues. Don't get me wrong I still score goals I just feel like I'm not getting the most out of them.

 

My 2 Advanced forwards form..

 

PPMs : Runs with ball through centre, Cuts inside from both wings

PPMs: Moves into Channels

 

My two Pressing Forwards..

PPMs: None

PPMs: Plays with back to goal

 

I've just taken the Sheffield United job so will see how these lot get on.

 

Edited June 8, 2019 by Sinbad7104

[kr10]

Apologies, misread your initial post. I did most of my experimenting pre 19.3. Once I found the optimal tactic, I just ran with it. I found PF(s) to be more effective than CF or DLF. However, I made an effort to buy creative, second strikers with decent passing and hold up play. If your strikers are better suited to other roles, you could give it a go. 

Also, I agree than your PPMs look fine. That shouldn’t be an issue.

Let me know how it goes with Sheffield - it’ll be interesting to see how the tactic fades with a lower quality side, as opposed to one that is competing for champions league titles. Some tactics are definitely better suited to top sides and vice versa 

[Sinbad7104]

Half way through the season with Sheffield and I'm 4th which aint bad, Same old problems with the strikers and I just can't get my head around how to fix it. Seems its defo one for better quality players.

 

Currently 5 games without a win so think I might have to abandon this until I can get some better quality in. 

Worked brilliant in earlier saves with better quality players so that's what im putting it down to.

[kr10]

On 12/06/2019 at 05:06, Sinbad7104 said:

Half way through the season with Sheffield and I'm 4th which aint bad, Same old problems with the strikers and I just can't get my head around how to fix it. Seems its defo one for better quality players.

 

Currently 5 games without a win so think I might have to abandon this until I can get some better quality in. 

Worked brilliant in earlier saves with better quality players so that's what im putting it down to.

Hey, thank for you using the tactic and providing an update, it’s really helpful and interesting for me to hear about progress from other people using the tactic. Appreciate it. 

It’s an interesting one isn’t it, a tactic for good players vs not so good players? In theory, this is a fairly basic tactic, unlike say tiki taka that requires excellent technical and mental abilities. 

I’m wondering what more can be done to get the attack duty striker more involved. In theory, he has a support duty striker partner, a WP sitting narrow and essentially attacking as a #10 in attacking situations, and a winger and attacking fullback whipping crosses in. It’s a bit puzzling if I must be honest. That’s 4 players whose job is to feed him. 

Any thoughts/suggestions welcome 

 

[Sinbad7104]

I picked up some wins using another tactic but weren't really enjoying it so I'm going to come back and stick with this.

What I am going to do though it change my training and have it focused more on match prep and hope that pays off.

I've saved the recommend player attributes into the game as filters so I'll try and build a team as close as possible to that.

Got 9 games left of the season and I'll report back after.

First game back with this tactic and new training though  Luck? Who cares!

[kr10]

14 minutes ago, Sinbad7104 said:

I picked up some wins using another tactic but weren't really enjoying it so I'm going to come back and stick with this.

What I am going to do though it change my training and have it focused more on match prep and hope that pays off.

I've saved the recommend player attributes into the game as filters so I'll try and build a team as close as possible to that.

Got 9 games left of the season and I'll report back after.

First game back with this tactic and new training though  Luck? Who cares!

Definitely not luck!! Dominated Tottenham in shots on target too!

By match prep, do you mean more sessions (attacking movement/defensive positioning etc)? 

I would say also focus on playing strikers who are in form -  I’ve found this makes a much bigger difference than their stats/abilities, for whatever reason. 

Good luck and I hope your team can carry this form through to the end of the season. 

Are you also using the set piece instructions? I’ve found that I score a decent amount of goals from corners as well. 

[Sinbad7104]

3 hours ago, kr10 said:

Definitely not luck!! Dominated Tottenham in shots on target too!

By match prep, do you mean more sessions (attacking movement/defensive positioning etc)? 

I would say also focus on playing strikers who are in form -  I’ve found this makes a much bigger difference than their stats/abilities, for whatever reason. 

Good luck and I hope your team can carry this form through to the end of the season. 

Are you also using the set piece instructions? I’ve found that I score a decent amount of goals from corners as well. 

I changed them but was also scoring a lot from them so no real difference.

Turns out that Tottenham game was luck..Everything fell apart after that..

[kr10]

On 15/06/2019 at 01:26, Sinbad7104 said:

I changed them but was also scoring a lot from them so no real difference.

Turns out that Tottenham game was luck..Everything fell apart after that..

Sorry to hear :/ I suppose the tactic is just better suited to a higher level of players. I’m especially surprised about the defensive frailties. My guess is that it’s related to not having the right mental and tactical stats to effectively press and play the offside trap. 

In any case, perhaps this is a tactic you can keep in your locker and pull out once you become a champions league caliber team 

[kr10]

Tactic Test and Rationale:

To test the tactic better myself, I decided to start a new save with Milan (Season 2018/2019, 19.3) using this tactic. 

The primary reason for this was to determine the effectiveness of the tactic, versus just the players - The players I had in my other Milan save were all world class, molded perfectly to fit my system. 

The current Milan squad (2018/2019)

I was predicted to come 5th in pre-season. To this team, I added Bailey (Left winger) and Simeone (rotational striker) in  the summer, and Barella, J.Felix, and J.Tah in the winter (sold/loaned 8-9 players to fund this). Bailey was the only real out and out starter who represented a large leap in quality for my system. The others were either younger players with high potential (J Felix/Barella) or depth options (Tah/Simeone).

Overall, I would say that after the additions, I had a team that should quality for the CL if managed reasonably well, although I was far wore than Juve, and a bit worse than Inter or Napoli. 

Result: League Champions

The results after 36 games are shown below (Won 29, draw 5, loss 2). I won the league, something I have never done with milan in the past 3-4 editions of FM in the first season (even this year, in my original save --different tactic --  I only won it in my second season). 

Scored 83 and conceded 13 in the 36 games in question. Of the 36 games, my team kept 25 clean sheets. I did go through a patch of games in Jan/Feb where I wasn't scoring much, but luckily I was able to grind out several 1-0 wins to keep the momentum going. 

In addition, my team won the Italian cup and Italian super cup, although we were humiliated in the EL Semis (had to roll out the youth side due to fixture congestion/lack of good depth/tight league race). 

Another key thing to note: Both my U20 and U18 teams also comfortably won their league titles. The quality of my youth teams are quite poor (the real life U20 team got relegated this year). This is further proof of the tactic working fairly well. 

Player Performance:

Coming to the players - I have attached a screenshot with some of the key stats.

- Suso (wide playmaker) had 73 key passes, leading the league by a large amount

- Bailey (left winger) had 13 goals and 20 assists (albeit, some of these were from corners).

 

- My advanced forward, Piatek (who is not as amazing in the game as in real life, sadly), has managed to bag 17 goals in the league from 33 starts, currently 3 behind Cristiano. There were some concerns on the AF getting isolated, so I wanted to make sure it wasn't a tactical issue. Piatek (which I checked online, is about a 155 CA at the start of the game) is no where close to world class, but still managed to perform quite well. 

The support striker (Initially Cutrone, then Simeone, Felix towards the end) also performed fairly well. Around 0.3-0.4 goals/game, along with some assists. 

I decided to play J.Felix as a False 9 rather than a PF-S, as his skillset was much better suited to it. My vision was to create a second coming of Kaka (although he is only 19 and far off from being an every week starter). 

Conclusion:

At this point, I can conclude with a reasonable amount of confidence that the tactic performs quite well, when the team is at least of EL/CL qualifying calibre. The fact that my youth teams performed well with this tactic is, in my opinion, potentially proof that it can work in lower levels as well, although I can't state this with 100% confidence. 

Perhaps, there is also more than the tactic which leads to success - such as hiring the right coaches/medical staff, team talks, man management, etc. I try to focus a lot on this (except for press conf, where I get an assistant with 16+ man management and let him do it). 

If anyone has any questions/observations/thoughts, I would be glad to answer. 

Edited June 20, 2019 by kr10

[timcliffsmith]

Hi there, been playing with this for four seasons now on 19.3.5. I am Cardiff and it has gone like this: 11th, 10th, 7th, and I am currently in 5th with 6 games to go in the 4th season. 

This is good, I like a nice build. I can't stand overpowered tactics. Also, I love the way that this plays, really nice build up. The only thing I will say is that, as Sinbad mentioned, every now and then you really go on a terrible run. It is strange, because generally the defence is really good. And it's not like I'm getting dominated, but I'll go ten games and maybe only win two or three, even losing to poor sides, and getting spanked by the big boys. I lost 2-7 at home to Man City (although that is a great exception). Often, the stats are fairly even, or even better for us, but these runs keep happening.

Like I said, I do not want a Diablo tactic, but if there was a way to cut out these terrible runs, that'd be great.

Anyway, thanks for posting this tactic, I've enjoyed it.

[kr10]

1 hour ago, timcliffsmith said:

Hi there, been playing with this for four seasons now on 19.3.5. I am Cardiff and it has gone like this: 11th, 10th, 7th, and I am currently in 5th with 6 games to go in the 4th season. 

This is good, I like a nice build. I can't stand overpowered tactics. Also, I love the way that this plays, really nice build up. The only thing I will say is that, as Sinbad mentioned, every now and then you really go on a terrible run. It is strange, because generally the defence is really good. And it's not like I'm getting dominated, but I'll go ten games and maybe only win two or three, even losing to poor sides, and getting spanked by the big boys. I lost 2-7 at home to Man City (although that is a great exception). Often, the stats are fairly even, or even better for us, but these runs keep happening.

Like I said, I do not want a Diablo tactic, but if there was a way to cut out these terrible runs, that'd be great.

Anyway, thanks for posting this tactic, I've enjoyed it.

Thank you for trying it out, and appreciate the feedback. 

Agree with the fact that bad runs are super annoying. Ever since I’ve played FM, it seems to happen. I think ways to reduce the bad runs/increase the good runs are:

1. Praise players individually when their form is good

2. Criticize players when they are in poor form

3. Get a good assistant with man management and ask him to do press conferences 

4. Try to rotate a lot, especially when a player isn’t in good form

5. Use 4-5 team meetings a season 

6. Praise conduct individually to up morale when it is low 

still, bad runs/form seem to happen. I think if you are doing ok stats wise, it is likely more of an FM thing than a tactics thing, although I could be wrong 

[kr10]

Update: Second season with the Milan team done (2019/2020). 

Result: Champions League (Won), Serie A (Won), Italian Cup (Semi Finals, Loss). 

Squad average age is just 22. 

Season Overview:
Going into the second season, I decided to continue focusing on a youth only policy, as I always do in Football Manager. This involves 

1)Buying 18-22 year olds who can either start for me right away
2)Investing in 15-17 year old (regens) with the potential to be world class (scouting each for at least 3 months with my top scouts)
3)Selling players without world class potential, even if they are young, if the right offer comes along

Here, you can see the transfers (in and out) that I have made. In just 2 seasons, I have been able to raise over 350M from player sales, without weakening my team (a special thanks to the AI for making ridiculous bids for average players)


My starting lineup and squad now looks like this. Besides Romagnoli and Caldara (who I love in real life as a Milan fan), the rest of my starting lineup are all 23 or below (Note - I played J.Felix as a False 9 rather than a PF(S), since his skills are much better suited to this role). The difference is that after dropping deep to get the ball, he looks to look up and dribble/pass quickly, instead of holding it up, a skill better suited for physical, strong forwards with balance/strength):



Results in Champions League:


Serie A table:


Player performance:

Pietro Pellegri, who I bought in the January window (as an 18 year old, advanced forward) has been absolutely incredible for me. Averaging a goal per game, winning headers, providing assists. This has taught me that jumping reach is critical for the AF, considering the tactic sends in plenty of crosses. 


Leon Bailey, my starting Left Winger, won the Ballon D'or and world player of the year at just 22:


I bought Kai Havertz for the WP role, who also had a fantastic season, despite being a new purchase:


Finally, my support striker: Joao Felix. In addition to goals and assists, he also provided several key passes, and several pre-assists, and was generally key to my system:


Summary and Takeaways:

Overall, considering my youth policy, and the fact that 90% of my squad hasn't reached their potential yet, I was honestly not expecting to win the champions league. While I only beat Liverpool on away goals, I beat them 11-1 in terms of clear cut chances, so it shouldn't have been this close. If I can keep this team together, they are only going to get exponentially better over the next 2-3 years. I also have some very exciting 15-17 year olds in the youth ranks.

1. Make sure the Advanced forward is tall, can head, and is on the same foot as his side (a large amount of goals were scored using through balls and first time shots) - so, right slot, right footed.
2. Support striker - should be creative, should be able to score, should also be right footed (just works better, from a large sample size). For mirror tactic, both AF and support striker should be left footed). 
2. CMs - I've noticed for a 2 man midfield, in addition to work rate (which is critical), and a well rounded skill set, jumping is also very useful, as it helps you win those aerial duels and prevents the ball from reaching the defensive line.
3. Even "average" players (Piatek, Suso) who have a CA of 150-155 performed well in this tactic, so I think for any EL level team or higher it should work. IMO it should work in lower levels as well, but it's critical to have the right players for each role
4. Pay meticulous attention to the player characteristics in each role. I think it makes a massive difference, for any tactic. For this tactic, since I had a clear idea in my head about what I want from each player, I was able to mould my team perfectly to my needs. In certain situations where I didn't, but had a high potential player (J.Felix), I tweaked the role to better suit him without compromising the tactic.

Anyway, I hope this was helpful and gives you more confidence to try the tactic. In addition to being selected as the league overachieving team in season 1, I also won the CL with such a young team, far away from their potential, in season 2. 

PS - This isn't meant to be a brag post, but rather one to shed more light into this tactic, and encourage people to use it. I personally feel it is a wonderful tactic, and adheres to a lot of football fundamentals about utilization of space, runners vs. creators, defensive balance, and a coherent tactical philosophy.

Ancelotti's Napoli actually use a similar interpretation of the 4-4-2. This video explains a bit more https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7dsTxuMCk4

 

[TheDuck24]

On 23/06/2019 at 12:39, kr10 said:

Results in Champions League:

What tactic were Valencia using? Considering you seemed to struggle a bit against them. Might like to know what sort of systems this tactic doesn't perform as well against.

[kr10]

10 hours ago, TheDuck24 said:

What tactic were Valencia using? Considering you seemed to struggle a bit against them. Might like to know what sort of systems this tactic doesn't perform as well against.

Against a 4-4-2 and 4-2-3-1, against strong teams away from home in CL, I use a 4-1-4-1 instead (I didn’t in this case, because I didn’t respect Valencia, who were actually quite good this season). The presence of 2 attacking players in the striker/CAM positions creates a 2v2 against the CBS, rather than having a spare man. 

That being said, once your team becomes good enough, it won’t matter, you can roll out the 4-4-2 against almost anyone. 

The 4-4-2 I created actually evolved from the 4-1-4-1, but it still has its uses

FYI the 4141 is

PF(s)

W(a) CM(a) CM(s) IW(a)

FB(s) CB CB WB(s)

same instructions/mentality 

the idea is to define in a 4141 and attack in a 433, using varied attacking play on the left, middle and right. 

Fyi after experimentation I have dropped the F9 and gone back to PF/DLFs in the 442 

[Joe.]

I like the look of this, it reminds me of the 4-4-2 that Sir Alex used to use with Beckham being the WP and Giggs on the left wing..

I’ve tried recreating that tactic before and always found the midfield balance tricky to get, as I’d been sure I’d need a BWM (Keane) alongside a creative midfielder (Scholes) and it always felt so exposed in the game.

This tactic looks like a toned down version of that, which adds a bit of discipline. Whilst I won’t copy this tactic directly, I’ll give something very similar a go (thinking of the old school big man, little man up top)

[timcliffsmith]

Just a quick question, are you using this tactic on 19.3.5?

I'm really enjoying it, but can't seem to break into the top four. I have a pretty good side now, too.

Cheers.

[kr10]

On 29/06/2019 at 07:42, Joe. said:

I like the look of this, it reminds me of the 4-4-2 that Sir Alex used to use with Beckham being the WP and Giggs on the left wing..

I’ve tried recreating that tactic before and always found the midfield balance tricky to get, as I’d been sure I’d need a BWM (Keane) alongside a creative midfielder (Scholes) and it always felt so exposed in the game.

This tactic looks like a toned down version of that, which adds a bit of discipline. Whilst I won’t copy this tactic directly, I’ll give something very similar a go (thinking of the old school big man, little man up top)

Sounds great, let me let me know how it goes. I think the key to maintaining midfield control is having 2 well rounded, hard working midfield players, both with relatively conservative roles (no B2B/Mezzala etc). 

Ive found this tactic works best with 2 big strikers up top, as it generates a lot of crosses. Pietro Pellegri with 19 jumping has been averaging a goal a game for me in my recent save 

[kr10]

11 hours ago, timcliffsmith said:

Just a quick question, are you using this tactic on 19.3.5?

I'm really enjoying it, but can't seem to break into the top four. I have a pretty good side now, too.

Cheers.

Yup I’ve used it both pre and post patch, including as recently as today. I think it comes down to having the right profile of players. Center mids (hard working with good defensive abilities) and strikers (tall, good heading) are especially important in my book. 

Think of the getting defensive focused, hard working CMs and target men type strikers. Let the creativity come from the wide players. I’ve found this suits the tactic best

[timcliffsmith]

Thanks for the reply. That's all I really wanted to know. What I want in FM (any version) is a tactic that I have faith in. The knowledge that when I get the right players in the right places, it'll come good. 

I'll your advice on board.