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Posted (edited)

Actually I mean deterministic. Absolutely no doubt about it. The algorithms that runs the match engine make results mostly pre-determined against high quality teams. 

Just had my top of the league team beaten 7 times in a row away at liverpool. we're favourites and i've taken the lead every time. Have tried attacking on the lead and defending on it. I'm top of the league. all players have really good morale, match fitness,, etc. 

What's really obvious is that we've had way more shots in all but 1 game. Way more. They're not outside the box shots either, they're in front of goal, inside the mx.  The final straw was the last straw- goal on 91 minutes.

 

Diferent formations ch time. e.

This game is a nonsense and full of it. 

Edited by blahblab

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Wait for the posts telling you its your tactics or your players or your management style . Nothing you say will determine if your correct or not . Personally think results are known before the 3D game is played but what you do in that game can change the outcome but to what effect im not sure . This post will get blocked because we cant have negativity or criticism of the game . Maybe try another team to see what happens

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6 hours ago, blahblab said:

Actually I mean deterministic. Absolutely no doubt about it. The algorithms that runs the match engine make results mostly pre-determined against high quality teams. 

Just had my top of the league team beaten 7 times in a row away at liverpool. we're favourites and i've taken the lead every time. Have tried attacking on the lead and defending on it. I'm top of the league. all players have really good morale, match fitness,, etc. 

What's really obvious is that we've had way more shots in all but 1 game. Way more. They're not outside the box shots either, they're in front of goal, inside the mx.  The final straw was the last straw- goal on 91 minutes.

 

Diferent formations ch time. e.

This game is a nonsense and full of it. 

Results are not fixed at all. Any change you make will recalculate everything, so you can influence what happens.

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5 minutes ago, prot651 said:

Wait for the posts telling you its your tactics or your players or your management style . Nothing you say will determine if your correct or not . Personally think results are known before the 3D game is played but what you do in that game can change the outcome but to what effect im not sure . This post will get blocked because we cant have negativity or criticism of the game . Maybe try another team to see what happens

There's nothing wrong with negativity criticism. All that's asked for is that it is constructive.

Your changes does affect the match and "making tactical changes" after you change something, is the ME recalculating the events for the rest of the half.

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32 minutes ago, prot651 said:

Wait for the posts telling you its your tactics or your players or your management style . Nothing you say will determine if your correct or not . Personally think results are known before the 3D game is played but what you do in that game can change the outcome but to what effect im not sure . This post will get blocked because we cant have negativity or criticism of the game . Maybe try another team to see what happens

Please don't lie about what gets blocked and why . It doesn't make you look good, this is not the first time you've done so and it's really not helpful or fair that you deliberately choose to misrepresent SI staff and moderators. If this continues we'll have to take action. 

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33 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Results are not fixed at all. Any change you make will recalculate everything, so you can influence what happens.

 

30 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

There's nothing wrong with negativity criticism. All that's asked for is that it is constructive.

Your changes does affect the match and "making tactical changes" after you change something, is the ME recalculating the events for the rest of the half.

How do you know its not scripted though ? I agree that the changes you make does influence the game but to what degree . I love the game so im trying to be constructive but it does get frustrating . Just think this game should be further more along in development than it is . 

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14 minutes ago, prot651 said:

 

How do you know its not scripted though ? I agree that the changes you make does influence the game but to what degree . I love the game so im trying to be constructive but it does get frustrating . Just think this game should be further more along in development than it is . 

Because it was never designed that way.

Firstly every year someone makes this claim, they eventually put their save up and someone wins the supposedly unwinnable game 

Secondly SI have repeatedly in the past actually said that's not how the game was designed, because what would be the point? More work for what purpose other than to annoy the user base?

As to what degree, that's like asking how long is a piece of string. It's like any managerial change in real life. Could be little different to the result, could be the difference between winning and losing. 

When a manager changes something in real life he or she has no idea what the magnitude of the effect will be, it's about hoping you've read the situation right and made the best decision possible to help influence things. FM is no different 

And respectfully I can't see how misrepresentation is ever going to be constructive, so be mindful that it's not something we take lightly. 

 

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Feel free to upload your save so we can show you that you're wrong.

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1 hour ago, prot651 said:

 

How do you know its not scripted though ? I agree that the changes you make does influence the game but to what degree . I love the game so im trying to be constructive but it does get frustrating . Just think this game should be further more along in development than it is . 

Because the idea that you're losing not because the other team has a better combination of tactics and players and luck than you but because SI's programmers sit there plotting exactly when you* should lose a game is childish and silly. There's 99 ways the game could be further along in development, but losing games on demand to people who are unable to accept defeat ain't one.

*not the other people that don't have that run of form....

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32 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

There's 99 ways the game could be further along in development, but losing games on demand to people who are unable to accept defeat ain't one.

I see what you did there :D.

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8 hours ago, blahblab said:

Actually I mean deterministic. Absolutely no doubt about it. The algorithms that runs the match engine make results mostly pre-determined against high quality teams. 

Just had my top of the league team beaten 7 times in a row away at liverpool. we're favourites and i've taken the lead every time. Have tried attacking on the lead and defending on it. I'm top of the league. all players have really good morale, match fitness,, etc. 

What's really obvious is that we've had way more shots in all but 1 game. Way more. They're not outside the box shots either, they're in front of goal, inside the mx.  The final straw was the last straw- goal on 91 minutes.

 

Diferent formations ch time. e.

This game is a nonsense and full of it. 

Come on then, upload your save game so we can all have a go and let's see how many people can win the game that you think is unwinnable.

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2 hours ago, prot651 said:

Wait for the posts telling you its your tactics or your players or your management style . Nothing you say will determine if your correct or not . Personally think results are known before the 3D game is played but what you do in that game can change the outcome but to what effect im not sure . This post will get blocked because we cant have negativity or criticism of the game . Maybe try another team to see what happens

Stop talking nonsense. Criticism or negative feedback has always been allowed on here. Sometimes posts are closed with the user told to go and post in the official feedback thread if it is the right place for it, and of course if the post is offensive, rude, full of swearing or includes personal attacks on SI or members of the team then it will be closed but in those cases it's because of the behaviour of the user who made the post not because of the criticism they levelled.

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9 hours ago, blahblab said:

Actually I mean deterministic. Absolutely no doubt about it. The algorithms that runs the match engine make results mostly pre-determined against high quality teams. 

Just had my top of the league team beaten 7 times in a row away at liverpool. we're favourites and i've taken the lead every time. Have tried attacking on the lead and defending on it. I'm top of the league. all players have really good morale, match fitness,, etc. 

What's really obvious is that we've had way more shots in all but 1 game. Way more. They're not outside the box shots either, they're in front of goal, inside the mx.  The final straw was the last straw- goal on 91 minutes.

 

Diferent formations ch time. e.

This game is a nonsense and full of it. 

I'd like a shot at that game as well. Please upload. I have a pretty poor grasp of how things work tactically but I have no doubt I could win it by using the few things I have learned.

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Posted (edited)
hace 13 horas, blahblab dijo:

Just had my top of the league team beaten 7 times in a row away at liverpool

Playing away is always difficult even irl, and against a top team is even harder

 

hace 13 horas, blahblab dijo:

What's really obvious is that we've had way more shots in all but 1 game. Way more. They're not outside the box shots either, they're in front of goal

How may were on target? How many where one on one against the goalie? How many where blocked by one of the 20+ legs on the box?

The other teams is just defending against the leader of the league, they are, as the football community say, parking the bus, something that gave chelsea his CL a lot of seasons back you just need a tactic that can break those parking the bus tactics

Edit: there is no tactic that will work 100% of the times so start accepting that a unbeaten season  in fm is as hard as irl

Edited by WorcesterLegend

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Posted (edited)

 This, Boys and Girls, is the #1 reason we will never see actually competitive AI. *le sigh*

It wouldn't be so funny if These Forums weren't full of People who absolutely thrash the game, left Right and centre in a way that not even the most elite Managers in the game do, despite some RNG at Play that almost guarantees the actually better Teams not Always wins. Thanks to "super tactics", even Players who haven't got a clue -- crucially also About the inherent weakness of any tactics they download, as unless the game allows anybody to field 20 outfield Players, there will Always be some. Imagine if the AI wouldn't defend those oft defenderless one trick Ponys by Chance, but by choice…. It's already got an Edge either way, as like an actual manager may it gives a hoot About the shots on a spreadsheet piling up but is more concerned with the spaces and the only stats that Counts, which is the scoreline (in simple ways). Believe it or not, there's Players who have probably put hundreds of Hours into this game series, and yet have failed to recognize that they could sit their dog in front of their PC; whenever the AI opts to sit Deep and manly (which the game's AI really likes) -- even that dog would "outshoot" the AI on that spreadsheat by significant margins every single match.



Feature Forum request: A Gary Gazhammer1000 Award.

1 hour ago, WorcesterLegend said:

How may were on target? How many where one on one against the goalie? How many where blocked by one of the 20+ legs on the box?

 

Don't Forget those set pieces. Headers under pressure in crammed boxes will rarely be a tap-in. Plus, hower accurate or inaccurate they may be in-game, one on ones are overrated.

Edited by Svenc

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Psst...I don't think you're actually going to get a save to prove them wrong with.  Saying stupid things often isn't extended to doing stupid things like deliberately showing how ridiculous the things you're saying are.

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18 hours ago, blahblab said:

Actually I mean deterministic. Absolutely no doubt about it. The algorithms that runs the match engine make results mostly pre-determined against high quality teams. 

No, it is not. No they do not. It really is as simple as that. This is not ignoring criticism, this is pointing out that you are wrong. 

18 hours ago, blahblab said:

Just had my top of the league team beaten 7 times in a row away at liverpool. we're favourites and i've taken the lead every time. Have tried attacking on the lead and defending on it. I'm top of the league. all players have really good morale, match fitness,, etc. 

You are away to Liverpool. This is always going to be a hard fixture, no matter who you are. If you expect to win every single game, your expectations are too high.

18 hours ago, blahblab said:

What's really obvious is that we've had way more shots in all but 1 game. Way more. They're not outside the box shots either, they're in front of goal, inside the mx.  The final straw was the last straw- goal on 91 minutes.

More shots does not mean you should win. The quality of those shots are what matter. Even if they are not outside the box, it does not mean they are good quality chances. Goals at the end of games also happen. I got knocked out of the Champion's League in the last season of my current save from a 94th minute 40 yard wonder strike. I also won the title in large part thanks to some late goals of my own. 

18 hours ago, blahblab said:

Diferent formations ch time. e.

I assume this means you changed formations around a lot? Why? Any idea what you were actually doing that for? Why do you expect changing tactics is going to change anything. If you are being outplayed by Liverpool, you need to stop them, not change everything you do and hope. 

If you want some advice (and I suspect you do not, this is just a moan to get frustration of your chest, which is fair enough), do not get hung up on defeats so much. It is football, you are going to lose some games. Some games you expect to lose, some games you expect to win. It is part of the game. You will have a lot nicer experience when you accept this. Losing a game is not the end of the world, really. Besides, you do not lose your mind when you win a game you expect to lose. You assume that is you managing a team well. You would not get hung up on this and replay those games over and over to you lose, because that was what "should" have happened.

12 hours ago, prot651 said:

Wait for the posts telling you its your tactics or your players or your management style . Nothing you say will determine if your correct or not . Personally think results are known before the 3D game is played but what you do in that game can change the outcome but to what effect im not sure . This post will get blocked because we cant have negativity or criticism of the game . Maybe try another team to see what happens

Pretty much everything like this does, ultimately, come down to your tactical approach. What else could it come down to, really? Losing a game is not a bug, it is part of the game. I do not see the point in lecturing someone about this unless they ask for help, mind. The reason threads like this get blocked is because they contribute nothing, and attract a bunch of other people to post and end up being a poo throwing contest. If the OP wants help, he can ask. If he wants to give and receive constructive criticism, he can also do this. Right now, this is a moan thread. Nothing against that, and if it stays civil it will likely stay open.

On the match results, you are partially correct. The game calculates the game before the match, and shows you the replay. This does not mean the results are predetermined in the way most people mean it. If the game calculated in real time rather than before, it would calculate exactly the same thing. This is not scripting in the sense that you are predetermined to lose. When you make changes (any changes, and the AI too) the match is recalculated (that is the processing time you get, and why the game waits before making changes, it needs a convenient time to actually recalculate - a dead ball situation I guess). This means you can absolutely change the outcome of a match while playing. This does happen in "real time". 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

The reason threads like this get blocked is because they contribute nothing, and attract a bunch of other people to post and end up being a poo throwing contest. 

Plus they distract from AI / ME issues. The counter evidence that this isn't a Thing is all over the place -- to the extent that Players stop the game like arguably being like Football at all entirelly (which 100% contradicts the Assertion that results would be "pre-determined" -- if anything, Players on this have far too big an influence over results, not seldom precisely because of such AI / ME issues threads like this are distracting from).

Unfortunately, Things will Always be that way. As demonstrated by the OP, you can be top of the pile without having got much of a clue. Which arguably is an issue in itself. After all, there aren't all that many games where players can get Things this wrong, and still come out successful, Overall. But in a way it naturally is just art imitating life-------- during my management career, my brilliance kept me  Winning plenty stuff. On Occasion however that ball was just too bouncy on the night. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5015725/Top-10-greatest-football-excuses.html

Edited by Svenc

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totally agree svenc. i spent most of my time playing rpgs/mmos so am used to RNG. it was the times over the years (started playing at CM 3 because I can distinctly remember the massive blue manual :D) where the game client crashed without me having a rolling auto save or corrupted entirely that annoyed me - far more than any match result. luckily the client is pretty solid these days in that regard.

if the game was some sort of problem that could be completely solved with 100% winrate then i would never touch it again. in fact that might even be naive of me, i expect there are downloadable tactics or users on this forum that get somewhat close to this level of dominance already.

for my own example: last season I beat Young Boys in the league 5-1 but lost 0-1 to Sion. Young Boys ended the season with a +42 goal difference and 2 points behind me, whilst Sion won only 6 games in a 36 game season and got relegated :cool: i only won the league because Young Boys lost the last game of the season to Luzern who were winless in 4 games. if they had have won that game I would have been sacked and would probably have quit the save.

to the OP, like others have said upload the file & I'm sure a lot of people will be happy to have a go with it. fairly certain this isn't going to happen though.

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18 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Please don't lie about what gets blocked and why . It doesn't make you look good, this is not the first time you've done so and it's really not helpful or fair that you deliberately choose to misrepresent SI staff and moderators. If this continues we'll have to take action. 

Hhahaaahaha.

 

This forum is even worse than that one of EA. Everyone can see, by playing, some things are really off but if you say this those wannabe authorities will block that conversation. Is this North Korea? Really bad community managers you have here. Damn. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Dennis_Ajax said:

Hhahaaahaha.

 

This forum is even worse than that one of EA. Everyone can see, by playing, some things are really off but if you say this those wannabe authorities will block that conversation. Is this North Korea? Really bad community managers you have here. Damn. 

 

 

As is always said when this is raised, any poster who criticises the game in a constructive way will be welcomed and the content will not be blocked.  There are, however forum rules about how opinions are expressed and if a post breaks these rules, then the post may be deleted or edited.  Abide by the posting guidelines and there will be no problems- continually break the rules and then you run the risk of sanctions, but the choice is yours.

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what I always understood from the game itself is that it is programmed to be equal to real life, everything that happens in FM, happens in real life

1/1 = 1 goal
24/10 = 0 goals

happens in real life this
last placed winning of the first

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The biggest giveaway to me is that, in threads like this, the OP has repeatedly tried to win the "unwinnable" game by multiple save-repeats. This implies to me that they have qualms with this technique, therefore I am forever dubious to the fact that they are actually a good team with good tactics and setup, and instead believe that they are probably top of the league because they have done the same save-repeat whenever results haven't gone their way. This has worked for them in the past, and got them to the top of the league, through trial and error, but now they are actually facing a difficult match, their only flawed logic is that game is obviously rigged.

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Marabak said:

The biggest giveaway to me is that, in threads like this, the OP has repeatedly tried to win the "unwinnable" game by multiple save-repeats. This implies to me that they have qualms with this technique, therefore I am forever dubious to the fact that they are actually a good team with good tactics and setup, and instead believe that they are probably top of the league because they have done the same save-repeat whenever results haven't gone their way. This has worked for them in the past, and got them to the top of the league, through trial and error, but now they are actually facing a difficult match, their only flawed logic is that game is obviously rigged.

Like this guy (this thread is still a Relevation, btw, no less for the additional relevation that "men fought the dinosaurs -- and won!". :D These guys still have a Point though, as the game's premise is that it simulates semi-professional Management. And tbf, whilst it was worse back then with all those Sliders -- the game still lets one do stuff that arguably doesn't have to do with either on any Level (which hurts the AI also on the Occasion).

10 hours ago, ajt said:

totally agree svenc. i spent most of my time playing rpgs/mmos so am used to RNG. 


Tell me About it, I'm currently playing Pathfinder, and some of the Encounter design (even on normal difficulty) stacks the odds quite some in favor of opponents. I don't remember any Bioware/Obsidian/Bethsoft game for instance that as early as Level 2/3 would let you face Opposition with Damage resistance outside of particular types of Damage; or Armor Classes that high that only rolling a 20 on the simulated Dice 20 could hit (unless you knew what you are doing). Basically, that's a 5% Chance. On the odd Occasion, you may still roll those 20s in a row… so may just reload over and over until you luck out, heh. Love that stuff. :D
 

Edited by Svenc

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Posted (edited)

yes I was watching the streamer cohhcarnage play pathfinder earlier this year, it seemed pretty damn difficult. i have the game divinity original sin 2 & I still need to play through the witcher 3 since i upgraded my GFX card. sadly a new world of warcraft private server has just opened up so me and my degenerate buddies are currently trying to recapture our youth  :lol:

Edited by ajt

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On 04/05/2019 at 08:45, prot651 said:

 

How do you know its not scripted though ? I agree that the changes you make does influence the game but to what degree . I love the game so im trying to be constructive but it does get frustrating . Just think this game should be further more along in development than it is . 

In the most extreme example start a game with say Barcelona vs a weak La Liga team. Pick your strongest starting 11 and best tactic. The game will determine you are favourites and you will more often than not win the game if you play correctly. Get the game to half time and at this point you will more than likely be winning or still level. Now you said you don’t see to what degree changes can make. And as I said this will be an extreme example. At half time on the tactics screen move everyone of your players as high up on the tactics board as you can also swap your starting GK for Messi or another small player. I can guarantee you can go from winning a game 2-0 to losing it 2-25 in one half of football. Again I understand this is an extreme example but it shows in the easiest form that the result is NOT pre determined before the game starts. And also shows how drastic your decisions can change a possible outcome.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, ajt said:

yes I was watching the streamer cohhcarnage play pathfinder earlier this year, it seemed pretty damn difficult. i have the game divinity original sin 2 & I still need to play through the witcher 3 since i upgraded my GFX card. sadly a new world of warcraft private server has just opened up so me and my degenerate buddies are currently trying to recapture our youth  :lol:

Same here -- except that my youth was more About the Realms Of Arkania games, Might&Magic -- and when Baldur's Gate came around I risked my exam in favor of playing it (still worked out fine in the end, mind). :D Pathfinder is actually Pretty cool, as you can't just auto-attack opponents but on Occasion may have to THINK and dig into the game's mechanics a little (just like in the old days, sigh). Additionally, just like in the old days, there are supposed to be Opposition that you cannot beat yet. Level up, come later…. or just leave them be! I hate it how games These days tend to be balanced in a way to you know in Advance the only foes you'll find are there to be beaten ASAP (or auto-Level alongside to your Party). This sounds off-topic, but might all actually be hugely relevant to the thread (and the opening poster) in one way or another… ;) 

Edited by Svenc

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On 05/05/2019 at 12:18, Joaquimorais said:

what I always understood from the game itself is that it is programmed to be equal to real life, everything that happens in FM, happens in real life

1/1 = 1 goal
24/10 = 0 goals

happens in real life this
last placed winning of the first

That is not "programmed" to happen. The game does not think "well, we have not had an upset lately, better make one". The majority of games like the one you describe are people not understanding how to attack a very defensive side. Sometimes you are just unlucky, even if you know what you are doing. It is pretty much an identical problem to "second season syndrome" which is also talked about here a lot. It is harder to score on a defensive team than on an attacking team.

In my previous season of my current save, I lost only one game where I expected to win, despite dominating. It was a vital game in the title race at the end of the year, which was a mitigating factor. I have games where I cannot break down a defense from time to time, but these days I very rarely leave myself open to such muggings.

The game really does not determine what will happen in isolation. There is nothing that says "no penalties in 10 games? Better award one this time around", or "not had a 40 yard wonder goal this season, add one". Or any variation on this argument. This is fallacious, and  worse when people post it they propagate myths which others believe (as Svenc points out).

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1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:

That is not "programmed" to happen. The game does not think "well, we have not had an upset lately, better make one". The majority of games like the one you describe are people not understanding how to attack a very defensive side. Sometimes you are just unlucky, even if you know what you are doing. It is pretty much an identical problem to "second season syndrome" which is also talked about here a lot. It is harder to score on a defensive team than on an attacking team.

In my previous season of my current save, I lost only one game where I expected to win, despite dominating. It was a vital game in the title race at the end of the year, which was a mitigating factor. I have games where I cannot break down a defense from time to time, but these days I very rarely leave myself open to such muggings.

The game really does not determine what will happen in isolation. There is nothing that says "no penalties in 10 games? Better award one this time around", or "not had a 40 yard wonder goal this season, add one". Or any variation on this argument. This is fallacious, and  worse when people post it they propagate myths which others believe (as Svenc points out).

in real life, its easy score goals in defensives teams?

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Joaquimorais said:

in real life, its easy score goals in defensives teams?

Yes. Leicester won the Premier League with 42% possession (18th place in the league) and a very deep defensive line. Their striker broke the record for most consecutive games scored in because as anybody who has ever watched football knows, it's easy for a good fast striker to score goals on the counter attack. 

It's amazing how people think they can  lecture SI on realism whilst apparently having no footballing knowledge whatsoever...

Edited by enigmatic

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Just now, enigmatic said:

Yes. Leicester won the Premier League with 42% possession (18th place in the league) and a very deep defensive line. Their striker broke the record for most consecutive goals scored because as anybody who has ever watched football knows, it's easy for a good fast striker to score goals on the counter attack.

It's amazing how people think they can  lecture SI on realism whilst apparently having no footballing knowledge whatsoever...

and has this happened how many times in the history of the premier league?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Joaquimorais said:

and has this happened how many times in the history of the premier league?

Well sides win with a minority of possession and shots hundreds of times a season. Leicester did it so many times in a row they actually won the league. Atletico nearly got a league/CL double with a minority of possession in both competitions.

Please, tell me more about how SI should code the game to make sure defensive teams never win...

Edited by enigmatic

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2 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Well sides win with a minority of possession and chances hundreds of times a season. Leicester did it so many times in a row they actually won the league. Atletico nearly got a league/CL double with a minority of possession in both competitions.

Please, tell me more about how SI should code the game to make sure defensive teams never win...

my friend, do you need to understand that these are rare cases, FM is perfect? No, but it's far from being a predictable game.

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Just now, Joaquimorais said:

my friend, do you need to understand that these are rare cases, FM is perfect? No, but it's far from being a predictable game.

My friend, do you need to understand that if you argue FM is not equivalent to real life because you do not believe defensive teams score and win IRL and somebody points out that some teams consistently score and win playing defensively, this means you are wrong.

 

The irony is that losing games to weak defensive teams is a rare case in FM (if anything rarer than real life). It's just that when people win, they assume that it's because they're great, and when they lose they childishly start accusing the game of scripting things against them rather than just accepting that luck is a factor in real and simulated football and they probably had their fair share of good luck in some of their wins, as well as an attacking formation that's a bit vulnerable at the back. Ironically it seems what most of them actually want is a game which is scripted so they always win if they pick the right players and formation...

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2 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

My friend, do you need to understand that if you argue FM is not equivalent to real life because you do not believe defensive teams score and win IRL and somebody points out that some teams consistently score and win playing defensively, this means you are wrong.

 

The irony is that losing games to weak defensive teams is a rare case in FM (if anything rarer than real life). It's just that when people win, they assume that it's because they're great, and when they lose they childishly start accusing the game of scripting things against them rather than just accepting that luck is a factor in real and simulated football and they probably had their fair share of good luck in some of their wins, as well as an attacking formation that's a bit vulnerable at the back. Ironically it seems what most of them actually want is a game which is scripted so they always win if they pick the right players and formation...

 

1 second, are you on the side that says the game is scripted or the other?

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Posted (edited)

I'm saying the game isn't scripted. And also that all the people saying that it's "scripted" because they are unhappy to lose to defensive teams are wrong, because many defensive teams often do win games of football (especially if their defensive teams are good, like Liverpool in FM)

I think you are arguing the opposite and complaining that defensive teams sometimes win. Especially since you appeared to be disagreeing with @sporadicsmiles who is busy explaining why defensive teams can be hard to beat in FM is related to tactics, not "scripting". Apologies if it's my misunderstanding - I realise that you are not responding in your first language.

Obviously many other people definitely are saying that the game is scripted because they can't accept losing to defensive teams, and so regardless of what you were arguing, they are still wrong ;) 

Edited by enigmatic

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2 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

I'm saying the game isn't scripted. And also that all the people saying that it's "scripted" because they are unhappy to lose to defensive teams are wrong, because many defensive teams often do win games of football (especially if their defensive teams are good, like Liverpool in FM)

I think you are arguing the opposite and complaining that defensive teams sometimes win. Especially since you were arguing with @sporadicsmileswho is busy explaining why attacking teams often lose in FM. Apologies if it's my misunderstanding - I realise that you are not responding in your first language.

Obviously many other people definitely are saying this, and so regardless of what you were arguing, they are still wrong ;) 

i'm brazilian, and I'm saying that the game is not scripted

I was just explaining that these things happen in real life, just.

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The big thing so many people forget when they fall into the reload trap is that the mix of training, post-match (last game) and pre-match (this game) interviews have been done, there has been all the previous games and the little bits they contribute and how they're managed along the way that are contributing factors.

If you've mismanaged a situation leading up to a certain game, then you might as well be asking why you can't stop your house burning to the ground no matter how many times you try to put out the fire, when an hour earlier you ignored that fire in the kitchen.

Of course it's not as grave a situation, but so much building up to a game plays a part in it that some of the things that may create an easy win are no longer options. Then there's just the actual game itself, never been one for saving and reloading myself so I don't know the process but I'm guessing what a couple of reloads on the same tactic, then wildly swinging tactics? All pretty self exposing in one way or another.

It's incredibly easy to create high possession, long distance shooting, pitch dominating tactics. They can paint a picture of dominance without ever actually having a decent chance or passage of play. Trying to find the right way to play a reserved but effective strategy for your side just by reloading is likely to be a failure.  

- - -

Personally I don't think its scripted, what I think actually happens is SI have a huge array of screens in their offices showing all the players currently playing, and part of their dedicated team will sit there bringing up games and from time to time giving an AI team an unbeatable tactic. 

I'll bet its called Project Harbinger and they're sat there like: 

 

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15 hours ago, Joaquimorais said:

in real life, its easy score goals in defensives teams?

Not at all, it is why teams play defensive to win games. I actually love a good bit of defending. What is different is how a team would set up to break down a defensive side compared to one that is actually attacking you. When a team attacks you, they are giving you space to exploit most of the time. It is always easier if you are gifted space to play in. When a team defends, you have to create your own space to play, and create gaps in the opposition defence. This is the really tricky part to get right in FM.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, santy001 said:

 

- - -

Personally I don't think its scripted, what I think actually happens is SI have a huge array of screens in their offices showing all the players currently playing, and part of their dedicated team will sit there bringing up games and from time to time giving an AI team an unbeatable tactic. 

I'll bet its called Project Harbinger and they're sat there like: 

 

Heh. :DIt's not so much an "unbeatable tactic". It's that FM allows you to set up in a way that no Team in Football would (not for the 90 minutes, certainly not for a fully Season*). The reason why People thus cannot beat even after multiple reloads:

- They have a hole somewhere visibly on the pitch as big that you could drive a truck through (anyn download section of any FM site tends to be full of such abominations btw -- the game is full of nonsense indeed, at least some of which user created)
- The AI , as it cannot read a match, only ever exploits this by Chance. Thus, if a user isn't able to win even with multiple reloads, the AI in Question has a prefernece (formation, traits, etc) that plays completely into this gargantic holes. Tryingn over and over randomly won't fix this. Spotting the hole will. In a sense, if the AI were truly smart, the game would feel less "random". However, naturally SI won't do this, as they may alienate their modest target audience of "General Football fans"
- The alternative can naturally also be a marking bug only triggered by instructions
- Talking About probabilities: In both cases there's a reasonably high one then that the AI is going to score every time it wins the ball back. Far higher than the player's.

 

* Germany at the WC to a Degree came Pretty close; every single time any of their Opposition gained the ball, they could walk into the German box tho. Was apparent likely even for the more casual Viewer, no less as Hummels hit out on Löw in public for that rather adventurous Approach. I agree with @enigmatic that if the stuff were to happen that regularly happens in real actual Football, and that despite Managers being actual managers, Players would have a brain hemorrhage. However, the AI on this game is still too defensive, and has been for a couple years. Not that "fun" probably if even decent sides continously want to Play the spoil Sport, whilst an Underdog will never ever have a go at a favorite (and this happens in Football quite a bit). Thus dropping Points is, and should be considered a reasonable statistical probability to happen. Some obviously do more (AI included), others not.

 

Edited by Svenc

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I really can't wait for the AI to reach a point in development where it's actually able to read the match, react to the player's tactics and exploit weaknesses (not just accidentally). Hope to see some hints of that in FM20, but I'm not holding my breath yet...   

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56 minutes ago, laurentius82 said:

I really can't wait for the AI to reach a point in development where it's actually able to read the match, react to the player's tactics and exploit weaknesses (not just accidentally). Hope to see some hints of that in FM20, but I'm not holding my breath yet...   

They won't go down that road, they will not a make a game just for the tactical elite. They want to balance difficulty to make the game appealing to as large as public as possible. And I think that they are quite happy with how the game is balanced and to be honest, it's the right strategy for a game designer, and for a title with such a name. It would make no sense to add difficulty to please a smaller percentage that adds frustration for the large part of people who play this game

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33 minutes ago, DavyDepuydt1 said:

They won't go down that road, they will not a make a game just for the tactical elite. They want to balance difficulty to make the game appealing to as large as public as possible. And I think that they are quite happy with how the game is balanced and to be honest, it's the right strategy for a game designer, and for a title with such a name. It would make no sense to add difficulty to please a smaller percentage that adds frustration for the large part of people who play this game

I'm afraid you may be right, but one can dream... 

Still, I don't think you'd have to be tactical elite (I don't consider myself as such) to enjoy the challenge, and picking a Man City or Barcelona as your team would still make it rather easy to have at least some success in the game for the more casual player. Perhaps SI could implement difficulty options too.

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11 minutes ago, laurentius82 said:

 Perhaps SI could implement difficulty options too.

Traditional difficulty Questions are out of the Question according to SI. But as more recently argued, I think they undervalue that they have the perfect template here in the job they are simulating to make Things a tad more customizable for all Kinds of players….

Btw. that the AI isn't coded to be "too smart" naturally is a burden on These "scripted match results" beliefs. Players who argue such typically are super succesful. They just drop a couple Points. Thus, they think they have "mastered" the game. If the AI were to provide them a more robust challenge, then they may come to different conclusions…. That's the one perspective. The other Observation is that, as soon as the AI is ever able to do something the human Player isn't (and may it Winning Points by sitting Deep, soaking up crapshots and eventually scoring some of the inevitably few shots in a match) -- it must be "AI cheating. Catch 22.

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23 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Btw. that the AI isn't coded to be "too smart" naturally is a burden on These "scripted match results" beliefs. Players who argue such typically are super succesful. They just drop a couple Points. Thus, they think they have "mastered" the game. If the AI were to provide them a more robust challenge, then they may come to different conclusions…. That's the one perspective. The other Observation is that, as soon as the AI is ever able to do something the human Player isn't (and may it Winning Points by sitting Deep, soaking up crapshots and eventually scoring some of the inevitably few shots in a match) -- it must be "AI cheating. Catch 22.

SI need to improve tactical AI which will reflect how real football works, i think it's a huge issue now. it's far too easy to achieve 20, 30, 40 shots per game even against top teams. also beating them is too easy. of course it feels like cheating droping points in a game where you had 40 shots per game. 

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I was about to make a similar thread and was going to ask a question. I can comment here without needing to make another thread.

 

I do not know if the results are scripted or not but some of them do seem awfully coincidental. 

 

Round 35. Man City are 2 points in front of Liverpool and 4 points in front of Man U. (I am Man City.)

Liverpool played first. 1-1 against 11th place Watford.

Man U 2-2 against Chelsea in 7th.

Man City played the next day against 19th place Cardiff. 1-1.

 

Round 36. Same gaps.

Man U play first and beat Arsenal 4-0.

Man City play same time as Liverpool. Man City 4-1 over Watford.

Liverpool 4-1 over Huddersfield in 17th.

 

Round 37.

Liverpool and Man U play same time.

Liverpool 1-1 vs Cardiff. 

Man U 3-3 against Everton.

Next day.

I field my best team against the bottom team Wolves. 0-0.

 

Round 38 still same margin. All teams play same time.

Liverpool 3-0 over Tottenham.

Man U 3-0 over West Ham.

Man City 4-1 over Aston Villa.

 

 

It seems that near the end of the season, it seems that first and second place and third if third are in the race for the title get similar results. This has happened to me almost every season that I have played. I am into like season 6 or 7 of this save.

The year before when United won, the last 4 games they played after us and they basically mirrored the result I got. Whether we won 4-0 or 4-3 or even when we lost 1-2, they mirrored it.

 

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@Spike55455 the immediate question is what benefit is there to scripting it to be like that?

What about all the seasons and all the leagues that it's not so close in? 

By design, every game is supposed to lose to you convincingly in a way that makes you think you beat it. While the genre FM is in doesn't need that to be a big bad foe to defeat, for player retention, for player engagement there still has to be that sense of progression. That achievement of success to entice you to keep playing. Various things tend to be included, presumably more for the average players benefit, such as the reduction in injuries compared to real life. 

- - -

To go off at a tangent, it would actually be very easy, hilariously so in fact, for SI to make the AI unbeatable. It'd probably come with some hefty processing requirements but all it needs is for the AI to play out the game - as it is right now with its change in mind and see the outcome. Should you make any changes, then there could be a presumptive several minute delay until the AI figured out something that would beat you.

The match engine, without intending to do it too much of a disservice, is essentially just math. Now of course, in simple terms you could say if 3 > 2 then home team wins, whereas in FM the variables are far more nuanced, there will be RNG elements included to determine whether a players first touch controls the ball or it goes loose with presumably some kind of modifier based on technique, first touch, anticipation, power behind the pass etc. 

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If SI create an AI that can actually think like a human, or even just give the impression in a match that it does, the game dies.  It's as simple as that.

Today there's as many people saying the game is too hard than it is too easy.  Where do those people go if they find that the AI they couldn't beat just got smarter?  Alienating vast swathes of your defiantly finite player-base is never going to be a good idea.

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1 hour ago, Svenc said:

Traditional difficulty Questions are out of the Question according to SI. But as more recently argued, I think they undervalue that they have the perfect template here in the job they are simulating to make Things a tad more customizable for all Kinds of players….

Btw. that the AI isn't coded to be "too smart" naturally is a burden on These "scripted match results" beliefs. Players who argue such typically are super succesful. They just drop a couple Points. Thus, they think they have "mastered" the game. If the AI were to provide them a more robust challenge, then they may come to different conclusions…. That's the one perspective. The other Observation is that, as soon as the AI is ever able to do something the human Player isn't (and may it Winning Points by sitting Deep, soaking up crapshots and eventually scoring some of the inevitably few shots in a match) -- it must be "AI cheating. Catch 22.

Agreed 100%. Do you think it's more a matter of SI intentionally keeping the AI "dumb" with regard to tactics, or is it just that the current level of AI development isn't enough for it to be able to compete? During the next few years it will certainly be possible to code an AI even in a game like FM that can make smart, proactive tactical decisions, so it would be a real pity if that possibility was intentionally ignored in order to provide an easy feel-good game.  Yes, people want to be succesful and feel like they are accomplishing things, but I think that is actually hampered by making the game too casual, as you know that although you took an amateur team from non-league to champions league glory, everybody else and their uncle has done the same, so it doesn't feel like an accomplishment. You are not special. I think people in general find a tough challenge more rewarding psychologically than a casual one.

 

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Posted (edited)

Remember that FM in the end is a business, thats why japanese game makers lowers the difficulty of their games for the american/european releases, same thing happens with FM right now, most of the "elite" of this game is either hooked up with the game or bored and just plays a few seasons per new game to see whats new and if by chance is more difficult, they are looking for more sales, so they have to go looking for the casual player, if the game is too difficult (is overwhelming for new player to learn all the stuff anyway, my brother had a go to fm and tried to use the same tactic he uses in fifa/pes, a 4-1-2-3 with 2 amc and a mc...that didn't end well for him) they will not comeback for the next release

Edited by WorcesterLegend

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