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Is it cheating?  

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  1. 1. Yes or No



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1 minute ago, Smurf said:

Can you show me how to do that? 

 

Go to scouting >> Player search. Then in a menu where you choose player views such as general info or to sort them by attributes etc. ( it's just above player names), you go to custom and then make a copy of your current  view or something like that. Then go to edit current view and add "media description" to a view. While you're there add a "Minimum Relaese Fee" also as it's very useful. Then you can sort players by "media description" and you just scroll and find wonderkids. The bigger youth package you have, you will see more of them.

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1 hour ago, yolixeya said:

Go to scouting >> Player search. Then in a menu where you choose player views such as general info or to sort them by attributes etc. ( it's just above player names), you go to custom and then make a copy of your current  view or something like that. Then go to edit current view and add "media description" to a view. While you're there add a "Minimum Relaese Fee" also as it's very useful. Then you can sort players by "media description" and you just scroll and find wonderkids. The bigger youth package you have, you will see more of them.

=================

  1. Go to scouting
  2. Player search.
  3. Then in a menu where you choose player views such as general info or to sort them by attributes etc. ( it's just above player names),
  4. you go to custom
  5. and then make a copy of your current view or something like that.
  6. Then go to edit current view and add "media description" to a view.
    1. While you're there add a "Minimum Release Fee" also as it's very useful.
  7. Then you can sort players by "media description" and you just scroll and find wonderkids.

=================

The bigger youth package you have, you will see more of them.

=================

What you're saying it can be in 7 not-so-known steps - that wouldn't dawn on a lot of users - it's a bit hidden, don't you think? 

Plus - the "bigger youth package" says it all.  If you don't have a big enough youth package you can't know of a wonderkid elsewhere? If you're a minnow club in Slovakia you can't know about the wonderkids tearing it up in Barcelona U19 squad? Which would be common knowledge. Plus - the scouting screen - surely that only shows you your scouting range? If you were playing in Russia, you possibly wouldn't know of a Wonderkid like Rodrygo Goes (who is signing for Real Madrid from Santos) - but if your scouting package doesn't cover this area then you don't know about it?

I'm just saying - think about it - even the average joe sitting on their couch who just follows football daily has heard of a lot of Wonderkids out there, in real life.

Yet in FM, we have to follow the 7 not-so-known steps to customise the Scouting screen to get a media description???  

If the game allows you to see the media description - then why bury it in custom scouting columns ???

Make a full screen/section of it... have filters in here that show the whole world, scouting range, unrealistic targets etc. 

And I can't stress enough - it should not be a given that if a Wonderkid is interested in signing for you by ticking the "Unrealistic targets" - the clubs could put up fights, could increase prices, make demands, the players may be not willing to change clubs at this time in their career, Agents could make unrealistic demands, etc. 

 

If we are aiming for realism in the game - then this would be more realistic. 

 

 

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It's funny that you can add Media Description column to your view and find Wonderkids instantly, but you can't actually filter players by their Media Description.

Custom view:

MCWyanl.jpg

Player Search filter (Media Description missing in General tab):

MZNBc4w.jpg

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6 minutes ago, Smurf said:

Plus - the "bigger youth package" says it all.  If you don't have a big enough youth package you can't know of a wonderkid elsewhere? If you're a minnow club in Slovakia you can't know about the wonderkids tearing it up in Barcelona U19 squad?

No. You would probably still see them. I currently play in Belgium with only Belgium package and I see wonderkids from Barca, Man City, Man utd, Olympic Lyon, Borrusia M'gladbach, Braga etc. It just means with bigger package you will see more players, and therfore more wonderkids.

 

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10 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

No. You would probably still see them. I currently play in Belgium with only Belgium package and I see wonderkids from Barca, Man City, Man Utd, Olympic Lyon, Borrusia M'gladbach, Braga, etc. It just means with a bigger package you will see more players and therefore more wonderkids.

But that doesn't make sense - so you can only see some? But in real life, you'd know about a lot more of them if not most of them. I don't need any scouting package in real life to know of Barcelona's top youth prospects, I can look that up now, sitting at my desk in Ireland, talking to you. What I am getting at is, if the Wonderkids list is available in FM through 7-not-so-known steps - that it should be more accessible through a specific screen dedicated to top youth players in the world. 

It would be like a Player Search, but a dedicated section for Wonderkids. As we know they are already listed in the game. At the moment, people are resorting to looking up Wonderkids lists to find the best Wonderkids - and asking if that is cheating. 

I don't think it is cheating, as a football manager, you should know who the wonderkids are in the game without much effort at all.
 

And the current list of wonderkids available on the internet, this is not comparable to what the game offers in the 'scouting packages' for when you are 20+ years into the game. 


I also fail to see how Wonderkid external lists are cheating if you can already search for them in the game. The only way I see it as possible cheating is that the external lists gives you all the players, and the game only gives you some. 

But in real life, you would be a lot more privy to the "external lists" for FM - rather than a limited set of data that the game offers.

 

If anything, the game is debilitating as it doesn't deliver a true Football Manager experience, by watering down youth prospects, that as a Manager in the professional game, should probably already know of.

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1 hour ago, Smurf said:

But that doesn't make sense - so you can only see some? But in real life, you'd know about a lot more of them if not most of them.

I'm just going to quote this part so I don't have to quote whole post. I think it's very hard to say how it should be or what makes sense. You can not know how many wonderkids IRL is out there that no one yet wrote about. What makes you think you should know them in the game.  And the media, and also FM gets it wrong all the time. Just look old articles or old FM databases, where are some of those players. You can say that they didn't live up to their potential, but you can also claim that maybe they didn't have that much potential in the first place, that they were only hyped up. Also wonderkid status in game reflects is very misleading. You can have a player with PA 150 described as wonderkid, and also have player with 180 PA described as just midfielder or promising midfielder. But nevertheless, wonderkid status in game always guarantees at least decent PA. Wonderkid status IRL doesn't, at least that is my opinion. So, when you look them up externaly, you bypass the confusion and you're able to know exact CA / PA values. Off course it's cheating. You're re cheating yourself. :)

 

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16 hours ago, yolixeya said:

I'm just going to quote this part so I don't have to quote whole post. I think it's very hard to say how it should be or what makes sense. You can not know how many wonderkids IRL is out there that no one yet wrote about. What makes you think you should know them in the game.  And the media, and also FM gets it wrong all the time. Just look old articles or old FM databases, where are some of those players. You can say that they didn't live up to their potential, but you can also claim that maybe they didn't have that much potential in the first place, that they were only hyped up. Also wonderkid status in game reflects is very misleading. You can have a player with PA 150 described as wonderkid, and also have player with 180 PA described as just midfielder or promising midfielder. But nevertheless, wonderkid status in game always guarantees at least decent PA. Wonderkid status IRL doesn't, at least that is my opinion. So, when you look them up externaly, you bypass the confusion and you're able to know exact CA / PA values. Off course it's cheating. You're re cheating yourself. :)

Your point is valid - but over the course of the thread, I did say you should know of all the wonderkids within a certain scope, and the really good wonderkids, you would know about anyway. 

But also that wonderkids would need to have a random PA until they are fully fledged players, which would give the randomness as to why some wonderkids end up being stars and others end up playing lower league football. 

Having a random PA would also negate external scout engines, as they wouldn't be able to tell someone that the PA is high, just that they are going to be somewhere between 140-200.

 

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Your logic is sound, but you're mixing real life and FM too much. Yes, we have many wonderkids lists available, but a VAST majority of those players will never amount to anything other than a rotation player at a mid-table club. Buying wonderkids in real life is a huge gamble, and it does require extensive research and scouting and it's still a major risk.

In FM, however, you KNOW that this or that wonderkid will succeed or not. It's a video game, and you can be 99% sure how a player will turn out if you have any sort of experience with the game. There are many ways to spot bad apples among wonderkids, but a quick glance at determination, work rate, bravery, natural fitness etc. give a clear picture, all depending on his position, what's to be expected of him in the future and so on.

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6 ore fa, shirajzl ha scritto:

Buying wonderkids in real life is a huge gamble, and it does require extensive research and scouting and it's still a major risk.

In FM, however, you KNOW that this or that wonderkid will succeed or not

Very true,

And here's where another pet-peeve of mine comes into the picture... Predictable and "standard" player development!

I'm half-sure in FM19 the talent curve is slightly more varied, as opposed to the olden days when a player around 23-24 was pretty much done for as a "wonderkid" if he hadn't hit his stride already. However, plenty of flawed newgens with high potential are immediately recognizable by a moderately seasoned human manager and he'll know better than wasting money and time on them. While AI will likely get fooled by the (P)PA and will still insist on signing him.

Of course in reality as well it doesn't take a genius to spot an overhyped kid who's not going amount to much, but there are many more "Bojan Krkics" than "Nikon El Maestros" on the shortlists of scouts, experts, pundits and fans...
It takes years of "waiting" and of "second chances" to finally write someone off as a bust or as a disappointment, while in FM you can do so with a relatively high accuracy almost at first glance...

A more varied players' creation model and development would help.

Credit where is due, I've seen A LOT of 20yo players who look like potential world-beaters but who have already peaked and will either stagnate or decline... So there IS hope...

 

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On 08/05/2019 at 20:00, Smurf said:

I don't think so. You can go on to google right now and look up all the wonderkids in world football. A manager can do just that right now too. 

Using genie scout is akin to scouring the internet for youth leagues and good young players. 

 

Genie scout will literally give you someone's exact PA and hidden traits. It's obviously immersion breaking and not realistic. 

I'm not sure I'd call it cheating as such but it's a bit boring. Takes all the fun of the unpredictability out of football management. 

Cheating is add a manager at PSG to buy your reserve players for 100m or sell you Mbappe for 500k, I'm not sure a list of - 9PAs is "cheating" it's just a bit dull. 

I agree with the post on the first page, though. This is a single player game, people can go and enjoy it however they want even if that's downloading a tactic, a short list, simulating every match and having your AM do everything. 

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I agree that the Genie Scout can be used to exploit the game by knowing exact numbers and potential, which is why I've always said that youth players should have negative value PA until they reach an age of 24 or 26 etc. Their negative PA could go up or down depending on game time, injuries, being out on loan, giving them a chance to go up or down in ranges of 160-175, 175-190, 190-200 - or something like that. It would bring randomness to their PA.

I'm still not convinced and never have been convinced by giving a 15-year-old a PA of 199. Some players, exceptional players, like Ronaldo, Messi, etc. would have a naturally high PA and easily reach it. 

But others, not so much, just to keep things British, even pundits were saying Dele Ali hasn't ever gotten near the potential people "thought" he had. 

I know some people will say his stats would be something like 170CA and PA 190 - but with pundits saying things like he hasn't reached the heights people thought he would - maybe in game with injuries, game time, success at competitions, tournaments, etc. the players PA could dip or even out at 24/26 years of age. 

Which would mean if a player has a PA of 190 and a CA of 160, then at the age of 26 when he hasn't quite hit the heights his PA reduces to 175, closing the gap in CA and PA - which would give a fairer reflection of his ability - as we all know the gap in CA and PA can cause weird in-game star ratings.

For instance in my last save I had a regen, PA of 190 and a CA of 180 - he got injured at 25 years of age and was out for a year when he came back from injury his in-game star ratings were 2.5 in both CA and PA. 

I tried to keep playing him and playing him to get his rating back up, but alas he got injured again. He had 2 unsuccessful loan spells at Arsenal and at Bayern, and finally, at the age of 28, I had to let him go. 

By the time I let him go his CA was 150 and his PA was still 190 - which I felt gave a weird in-game rating, as the gap was large between CA and PA. But he was never going to get back up to 190 - in effect his injuries and lack of game time, and unsuccessful loan periods meant he wasn't the player he used to be, and being young (under 26 at the time) I feel if the game adjusted the PA to a more realistic PA "goal" then the in-game ratings might have pushed him to be a 3.5 star player instead. 

It just wasn't to be, he was worth 38.5m and I sold him for a mere 4.5m... gutted. But that's the way it goes sometimes. 

 

Yes, the Genie scout does exploit the game, if used for evil forces. But I find it a useful tool for getting a real feel for the players and their potential. 

I don't think the game gives a fair reflection of what is going on. For instance, I had a right back, at 21 he was the 3rd choice. Got a loan offer, and then he was out on loan for a year. Came back off loan and was all of a sudden the best right back at the club and the best right back in the game, winning the world player of the year. 

Yet my staff (yes best coaches in the game thanks to Genie Scout), said he was the third choice, and had decent potential... compared to what my squad had already. But annoying that they didn't know he was the best young player and to give more game time to them. He was actually going unnoticed at the club. 

 

Then as an Irish manager, who has links to Ireland as I am Irish, and had the Irish leagues loaded, I was managing Barcelona, and I wasn't using Genie Scout at the time, but I wanted to get a young Irish player and play them at Barcelona from the age of 15 for a laugh, figured they would win anyway even with 1 bad player in the game. 

I scouted Ireland, and didn't find what I was looking for, a 15-year-old young Irish guy. 

So I went through each team individually and got to Galway, looked at the youth team, and low and behold there was a 15-year-old. 

I signed him for Barcelona, and played him every single game. At age 19 he was World Player of the year, I had struck the jackpot! Literally, pure fluke. It was like winning the lottery.

 

Now, I did load up Genie Scout after that and I checked to see what PA he was - and he was listed at 199 PA.

 

I was Barcelona, with the best scouts to offer, I have knowledge of Ireland, and links to Ireland, Irish coaches, and Irish scouts, and I scouted the Irish league, and they didn't find him.

I found him by pure fluke. 

 

There's a couple of things to note here -

The game it's near impossible to know if one of your youth players is going to be amazing, as the in-game star ratings don't give enough info, you select the player and ask the team and they say he's the 3rd best (at the time) - but there's no real indications that you should give him more game time because they are probably going to be better than what you have. 

The scouting doesn't find the best players. Arsenal knew of Messi age 13, Wenger said you could see his world-class ability at that age, similar to my Galway guy, he was 15 and highest PA in the game, yet my scouts at Barcelona couldn't find him or know about him - and I didn't know about him being Irish myself, I had no idea that this player even existed? I find him by chance and signed him on a whim just because he was 15 and I was taking the **** with Barca.

 

 - I just don't find the game replicates the real world enough.

In theory, most managers, within reason, would be well aware of any youth player who has a PA over 160. Granted, scouting would generally be very much required to find players in that PA region that fit your style of play and other things you look for.

And most of the world is well aware of players with a PA over 185. It's relatively common knowledge. 

And the entire world, it's dog and it's granny knows of any young player with a PA over 195. It's common knowledge, everyone knows.

 

So yes, I don't feel bad using an external Scout to find the next Messi or Ronaldo.

What I do feel bad about is that I can sign these players, if I am playing as Southampton and have progressed up the league and holding a mid-table position. I don't seem to have any issue signing a player from Brazil who is 18 and a PA of 199. 

I don't find the game handles that very well - with players of extremely high potential going to mid-table teams with mid-range-reps, and big clubs not snatching them up. 

I don't feel the game replicates that well at all. 

In fact, I can sign every newgen under the age of 18 who's PA is 175 or above, without any challenge from bigger clubs to try and sign them. 

Everyone of them. I think newgens, of high-potential, should reject more and shout out to clubs of higher-reps as the places they want to be if they were to move anywhere. 

 

I've said way to much.

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2 hours ago, Smurf said:

The game it's near impossible to know if one of your youth players is going to be amazing, as the in-game star ratings don't give enough info, you select the player and ask the team and they say he's the 3rd best (at the time) - but there's no real indications that you should give him more game time because they are probably going to be better than what you have. 

It's not impossible, it's just hard. You can know when he is going to be good, it's harder to know just how good he will be and I think it should stay that way. Assumptions should stay assumptions.

2 hours ago, Smurf said:

In fact, I can sign every newgen under the age of 18 who's PA is 175 or above, without any challenge from bigger clubs to try and sign them. 

You can sign them because you're using Genie Scout and you find them before any of the bigger clubs so they don't challenge you.

I used to use Genie Scout before, and it's very easy and you don't stress out when you miss out ona a signing as you easily can find another one. But in my current save I found the player who was in a last year of contract so I was thinking to try to sign him on a Bossman ruling as I didn't have much mone to throw around.  But then PSG started to snoop around, showed intrest and I quickly payed whatever his club wanted for him because I didn't want to risk losing him to PSG. Because if they offered, he would chose them, I know as it happened befeore. But with GEnie Scout I would just find someone else, maybe even better.

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40 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

It's not impossible, it's just hard. You can know when he is going to be good, it's harder to know just how good he will be and I think it should stay that way. Assumptions should stay assumptions.

Come on - if yo have a good youth prospect in your squad in real life your coaches and the club fans would be wetting their lips at the chance of seeing him play more games. 

It would be obvious in real life. 

It shouldn't be that hard. It should be obvious when a youth player is going to excel - just like it is in real life. 

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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40 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

You can sign them because you're using Genie Scout and you find them before any of the bigger clubs so they don't challenge you.

I used to use Genie Scout before, and it's very easy and you don't stress out when you miss out ona a signing as you easily can find another one. But in my current save I found the player who was in a last year of contract so I was thinking to try to sign him on a Bossman ruling as I didn't have much mone to throw around.  But then PSG started to snoop around, showed intrest and I quickly payed whatever his club wanted for him because I didn't want to risk losing him to PSG. Because if they offered, he would chose them, I know as it happened befeore. But with GEnie Scout I would just find someone else, maybe even better.

If I didn't use Genie scout I would never know about them, and that's the problem. And you should have a general knowledge of youth prospects anyway, and you don't, which is the argument.

Other clubs would in real life challenge for them. Even local clubs that should have knowledge about the local talent. 

And news articles would be ripe with gossip on youth prospects being targeted by the club. 

I don't know how to settle this debate - because it's very controversial.

 

I only use Genie Scout because the in-game tools aren't sufficient enough, and too long winded to find hot prospects and wonderkids. That's the only reason. 

As I said before, everyone would know about Ronaldo/Messi/Mbape type players, anyone with a PA over 185 would be well known in the world of football from first time they kick a ball. Word of mouth is faster than ever in a digital connected world, faster than it was in the days of Messi starting out. 

Yet, Wenger watched him play at 13, and wanted to sign him at 16. And Wenger signed players like Fabregas at 16, because he was well known as an up and coming footballer, very minimal scouting required. He was ready at 16, if he's good enough he's old enough is the saying. 

 

If the in-game tools were better for finding wonderkids or upcoming talents, even if smaller teams could only know locally, and then the higher the rep of the club the more you know. 

But all these wonderkids with PAs over 185 should be known in the game no matter what club you are. It should be common knowledge.

And maybe that common knowledge is wattered down the lower the PA goes. 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Smurf said:

Come on - if yo have a good youth prospect in your squad in real life your coaches and the club fans would be wetting their lips at the chance of seeing him play more games. 

I never had any problem with that. If they have potential they will get their playing time where they're good enough. I just can't gauge how big is their potential, just that hhey could be better than anyone in my squad. Or that they could be good for that league.

 

11 minutes ago, Smurf said:

If I didn't use Genie scout I would never know about them, and that's the problem. And you should have a general knowledge of youth prospects anyway, and you don't, which is the argument.

That's just not true. You can find about he talents in game. You just want to know about best ones, and you can stand the fact that some other manager finds them before you do. You want to find them when they're 15-16 when they don't have big reputation anyway. Yes there were some hits IRL with Messi, Fabregas etc. but how many of those who are signed early don't make it that big. IRL youth squads are filled with players they brought from elsewhere to train in their academy. 

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3 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

That's just not true. You can find about he talents in game. You just want to know about best ones, and you can stand the fact that some other manager finds them before you do. You want to find them when they're 15-16 when they don't have big reputation anyway. Yes there were some hits IRL with Messi, Fabregas etc. but how many of those who are signed early don't make it that big. IRL youth squads are filled with players they brought from elsewhere to train in their academy. 

Arsenal, Man Utd, Barcelona, Real Madrid, etc. all find them no problem in real life. 

I am constantly reading online about youth players linked to the top clubs in the world, constantly, and most of the time the moves happen, in real life. 

Yes you can find out about the talents in the game, but it's long winded, it's hard to find them, and it's not a simple task at all. 

I know of the best young players in the world - and I am not even a football manager, I'm just a fan like you.

If the game can't replicate real life then it's not really a football management game. 

And I've said all along, just because you know about them you shouldn't be able to sign them so easily. 

Yet in the game, the youth players move with no thought at all and they will move to mid-table teams with lower reps. 

 

The argument is, you should have knowledge of top talent in the world of football at youth level, if you disagree with that then I don't know what else to say. 

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6 minutes ago, Smurf said:

Yes you can find out about the talents in the game, but it's long winded, it's hard to find them, and it's not a simple task at all. 

 

6 minutes ago, Smurf said:

The argument is, you should have knowledge of top talent in the world of football at youth level, if you disagree with that then I don't know what else to say. 

It should not be that simple to find player with over 180 PA, or you should not be so sure that he has that much potential. I find that you can easily know about top talent in game as anything above 150 CA can be described as a "world class". In FM18 I played with Milan and Locatelli was described as a world class midfielder. I was suprised after I finished with that save to see that his CA was around 155.

I remember that Hachim Mastour was described as next Ronaldinho. I heard about him long before Donnarumma, Locatelli or Cutrone who eventually played for the first team. but he is nowhere to be found. If he made it, some "Wenger" would now be telling how his talent was impossible not to see.

Obviusly, he was not a out of this world talent like Messi. I guess that you could make exeption and claim that it was really impossible to not see his talent. But still it was a huge gamble. Nobody knew for sure that he would make it this big. Bringing that young players is a huge gamble. When you use Genie Scout, it's not so much gamble anymore.

I agree, that we keep spinning around. All this was brought up befeore.

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2 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

 

It should not be that simple to find player with over 180 PA, or you should not be so sure that he has that much potential. I find that you can easily know about top talent in game as anything above 150 CA can be described as a "world class". In FM18 I played with Milan and Locatelli was described as a world class midfielder. I was suprised after I finished with that save to see that his CA was around 155.

I remember that Hachim Mastour was described as next Ronaldinho. I heard about him long before Donnarumma, Locatelli or Cutrone who eventually played for the first team. but he is nowhere to be found. If he made it, some "Wenger" would now be telling how his talent was impossible not to see.

Obviusly, he was not a out of this world talent like Messi. I guess that you could make exeption and claim that it was really impossible to not see his talent. But still it was a huge gamble. Nobody knew for sure that he would make it this big. Bringing that young players is a huge gamble. When you use Genie Scout, it's not so much gamble anymore.

I agree, that we keep spinning around. All this was brought up befeore.

I do agree, I had a player win world player of the year and looked at his PA afterwards and he was only 130ish.

There is an argument that you should know who the next big player(s) are going to be, that's my argument anyway. I find it's far to easy to sign these players, and it's a bit unrealistic that they are so easy to sign. 

And I find it unrealistic in the game that they are so hard to discover. 

Yes, players have a PA of 150-175 perhaps not so easy to know how they would fair or what they are like. But players above this or perhaps even 185 would be well known in footballing circles. 

The game doesn't take advantage of the digital world that we live in, we are sending scouts to the far reaches hoping they discover the next wonderkid, we are scouring data sources, like looking at youth leagues, performances, etc. in the hope that we will find the next gem. 

But in reality, the next gems are already well known. 

I don't feel bad using a Wonderkid List, I think it's the knowledge you should have as a football manager anyway. 

 

I've signed plenty of high PA players in FM using Genie Scout that doesn't make it in the first team and never develop past a certain level, they have that realistic enough. 

I just don't agree that the level of scouting needs to be so much to find a player like Fabregas, Messi, Ronaldo, Donnarumma, Locatellie, etc. I heard of Donnarumma well before he made his senior debut. But in FM I could probably have signed Donnarumma for a small fee and have one of the better PA goalkeepers at a young age. Or pick any young prospect, and you can probably sign them, and you don't have to have a really high rep as a club. 

 

I do think knowing of wonderkids in the game would add another dimension to the game - it's a fact now that you can know them all in real life - so that should be a fact in the game. Especially for when you run in 20 odd seasons and need to find youth players. As the youth squads rarely produce proper talent. 

 

I'll continue to use Wonderkid lists, and external Scouts, because the game doesn't, in my opinion, offer a fair reflection of what I should know in the game. 

 

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19 minutes ago, Smurf said:

I just don't agree that the level of scouting needs to be so much to find a player like Fabregas, Messi, Ronaldo, Donnarumma, Locatellie, etc. I heard of Donnarumma well before he made his senior debut. But in FM I could probably have signed Donnarumma for a small fee and have one of the better PA goalkeepers at a young age. Or pick any young prospect, and you can probably sign them, and you don't have to have a really high rep as a club. 

I can agree that clubs should hold on to their wonderkids, and I find it that they often do (it can be improved surely, I don't negate that).  If a player has a CA of 120-130 already and huge PA it is likely that you will have to pay up. Still depends on a lot of factors, what club he plays in, what league, what is expiry date of his contract, does he want to move etc. So you could still maybe find some bargains depending on those factors, but in general more developed he is, more you will have to pay up and more the clube will want to hold on to him. Now when I used Genie Scout, I would discover them much earlier, with CA even below 100 but very young and much time to develop. They would still not have huge reputation so I could snatch them for a fee under 10M Euros. You can simply gain advantage for knowing about them too early and knowing that is indeed huge potential.

You're free to play the game as you want. I often used the word "cheating" in the thread but I don't think it's really cheating as many pointed out, it's a single player game. But it is a advantage, as you don't see AI immediately bidding for those players. If the game is trying to be realistic, you should find about the player about the same time AI manager does in a club with similar scouting network, on average.

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43 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

I can agree that clubs should hold on to their wonderkids, and I find it that they often do (it can be improved surely, I don't negate that).  If a player has a CA of 120-130 already and huge PA it is likely that you will have to pay up. Still depends on a lot of factors, what club he plays in, what league, what is expiry date of his contract, does he want to move etc. So you could still maybe find some bargains depending on those factors, but in general more developed he is, more you will have to pay up and more the clube will want to hold on to him. Now when I used Genie Scout, I would discover them much earlier, with CA even below 100 but very young and much time to develop. They would still not have huge reputation so I could snatch them for a fee under 10M Euros. You can simply gain advantage for knowing about them too early and knowing that is indeed huge potential.

You're free to play the game as you want. I often used the word "cheating" in the thread but I don't think it's really cheating as many pointed out, it's a single player game. But it is a advantage, as you don't see AI immediately bidding for those players. If the game is trying to be realistic, you should find about the player about the same time AI manager does in a club with similar scouting network, on average.

I still play FM 12 a lot, and much of what you said is as true for FM12 as it is for FM19.

In that regard, perhaps it's time for a change in how wonderkids are dealt with in the game, and their discoverability. 

 

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This is what I am getting at when I say wonderkids are known in the real world, and social media spreads the love. 

This was posted on Twitter today. 

246223201_ScreenShot2019-05-22at11_08_43.thumb.png.20c05f60484929dc25efa28929b1b36e.png

With countless social media out there - news of youth players success can reach your inbox in different ways than having to scout them.

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21 ore fa, yolixeya ha scritto:

I remember that Hachim Mastour was described as next Ronaldinho. I heard about him long before Donnarumma, Locatelli or Cutrone who eventually played for the first team. but he is nowhere to be found. If he made it, some "Wenger" would now be telling how his talent was impossible not to see. 

Obviusly, he was not a out of this world talent like Messi. I guess that you could make exeption and claim that it was really impossible to not see his talent. But still it was a huge gamble. Nobody knew for sure that he would make it this big. Bringing that young players is a huge gamble. When you use Genie Scout, it's not so much gamble anymore.

I'm glad someone mentioned Mastour, as he's the ideal player to point out FM's flaws in handling "wonderkids".

IRL Mastour was a highly-publicized YouTube phenomenon who also happened to be part of Milan's youth setup, where he barely featured and didn't really set the world on fire even in a subpar league like the Campionato Primavera.
Still, he was touted as a sure-fire top player, whose debut for ACM's first team was a matter of time and so was his rise to the top.

The debut never came, he had a bunch of pointless loans, was released and he wasn't even good enough to make it in Greece. Now he's pretty much finished as a credible player, at age 20!

 

Mastour's PA was -9 in FM15, -85 in FM16, -8 in FM17, -7 in FM18. But had you signed him in FM15-16 or even 17, he'd still have developed into a half-decent top-tier player, despite his poor mental attributes and likely as crappy hidden traits.
With enough tutoring and a bit of luck, he'd may even morphed into a good player!

And that's where the development model should do better. Fatal flaws should not only stunt a player's almost "inevitable" growth, but they'd also seriously affect his reputation and thus his value on the market and his appeal.
There IS a reason if AC Milan didn't give Mastour a single minute of senior football, if he didn't really play out on loan and he has so far amounted to nothing, becoming the biggest ever bust in the history of overhyped "talents" (in comparison, Freddy Adu's career is Ballon d'Or material).

In FM, while the most experienced human managers'd likely avoid Mastour and those with similar attributes like the plague, AI managers and scouts will likely fall for the "but he's so talented!" trap, especially considering Mastour's starting CA of around 100 was adequate enough as a starting point at a bottom-half EPL level, or even above if they're gullible enough.

 

In general, that's why wonderkid lists are "cheating"... Despite wonderkid-hunt being cumbersome in FM19, that feels more like an extreme measure to counter the relative simplicity and straightforwardness of turning a "Mastour" into at least a "Balotelli".
And for balanced players, it's entirely possible to sign an entire Starting XI consisting of relatively cheap, sure-fire worldbeaters for pocket money.

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Posted (edited)

I don´t use them, but I dont consider it as cheating either. Everyone can play the way he/she likes.

Edited by Carambau

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6 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

I'm glad someone mentioned Mastour, as he's the ideal player to point out FM's flaws in handling "wonderkids".

IRL Mastour was a highly-publicized YouTube phenomenon who also happened to be part of Milan's youth setup, where he barely featured and didn't really set the world on fire even in a subpar league like the Campionato Primavera.
Still, he was touted as a sure-fire top player, whose debut for ACM's first team was a matter of time and so was his rise to the top.

The debut never came, he had a bunch of pointless loans, was released and he wasn't even good enough to make it in Greece. Now he's pretty much finished as a credible player, at age 20!

 

Mastour's PA was -9 in FM15, -85 in FM16, -8 in FM17, -7 in FM18. But had you signed him in FM15-16 or even 17, he'd still have developed into a half-decent top-tier player, despite his poor mental attributes and likely as crappy hidden traits.
With enough tutoring and a bit of luck, he'd may even morphed into a good player!

And that's where the development model should do better. Fatal flaws should not only stunt a player's almost "inevitable" growth, but they'd also seriously affect his reputation and thus his value on the market and his appeal.
There IS a reason if AC Milan didn't give Mastour a single minute of senior football, if he didn't really play out on loan and he has so far amounted to nothing, becoming the biggest ever bust in the history of overhyped "talents" (in comparison, Freddy Adu's career is Ballon d'Or material).

In FM, while the most experienced human managers'd likely avoid Mastour and those with similar attributes like the plague, AI managers and scouts will likely fall for the "but he's so talented!" trap, especially considering Mastour's starting CA of around 100 was adequate enough as a starting point at a bottom-half EPL level, or even above if they're gullible enough.

 

In general, that's why wonderkid lists are "cheating"... Despite wonderkid-hunt being cumbersome in FM19, that feels more like an extreme measure to counter the relative simplicity and straightforwardness of turning a "Mastour" into at least a "Balotelli".
And for balanced players, it's entirely possible to sign an entire Starting XI consisting of relatively cheap, sure-fire worldbeaters for pocket money.

I have requested this multiple times.

 

A players PA should be dynamic.

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36 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

In general, that's why wonderkid lists are "cheating"... Despite wonderkid-hunt being cumbersome in FM19

This is what I was thinking earlier today. 

Wonderkid-hunting is cumbersome...and not only FM19 but always has been...
Wonderkid lists are kind of cheating... as is Genie Scout as you find exact info on PA.

So there needs to be a middle ground that FM is not providing. 

 

I wonder if for Wonderkids they have another hidden stat - which would be Potential Goal (PG)*

With the PG, it could go up or down depending on their mental attributes, game time, loan spells, avg ratings, etc. 

Just yesterday Conor Masterson announced he was leaving Liverpool on a free as he wasn't offered a new contract; basically he was touted and much admired at Liverpool, but a combination of factors, including injuries have forced Liverpool's hand, and another youth Hoever is now up the pecking order. As a result Conor is going to be free to join a new club, perhaps he would go back down the leagues to get game time, I don't know.

Examples:

At the moment Conor 20 years of age (I think) and through bad luck hasn't progressed - therefore:

At age 17: CA 90, PA 145, PG170 (or negative value for random figure of 175-200*)
- as long as he works hard his CA and PA could get closer and PA to change slightly - but depending on the factors.

At age 26: CA 120, PA 150 and the PG would be defunct

He has a bit of a turnaround, and his PG has gone at this age, but his PA is reduced because of his bad luck. 

 

It could have worked the other way for Conor

At age 17: CA 90, PA 145, PG170
got plenty of game time, successful loan spells, successful mentoring, good performances at youth level and international etc. mentality performances, good relations with manger etc.

At age 26: CA 155, PA 165  and the PG would be defunct

He would have to be highly successful to for his PA to go up to his PG of 170. 

 

Doing it this way would mean players who start out with a low CA and a high PA can work to closing the gap by introducing a PG. 

This would give more rise to players Vardy, David Platt for instance. I'm sure there are other players. 

And in the reverse, like Luke Chadwick, who choose to player lower leagues as he couldn't handle the pressure of premier league (from what I remember).

 

The idea really is that it's great to have potential ability - but I don't think you can put a number on the potential of anyone. Even Walt Disney was fired from his job because he lacked imagination and had no good ideas. 

Kane, Platini, Guilit, Griezeman, Costa etc. and many more - were all told they were not good enough to make it as professional footballers. 

Would having a CA of 90, PA of 150 and a PG of 175 (or negative value of -9 to be between 175 and 200*) be a good idea for some wonderkids?

 

That way - you can still have an in-game list of wonderkids - and nuturing their talent - and based on injuries, performances at youth levels, successful loan spells etc. you can see them go from in-game 1star current and 3star potential - to being 2 star current rating to 5star potential!

With their potential goal being defunct after a certain age. 

 

I haven't thought this through thoroughly - it's just an idea - so go easy! 

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3 ore fa, jack18881717 ha scritto:

A players PA should be dynamic. 

But that would create an even bigger and more exploitable flaw...

If you sign a balanced young player with dynamic potential, maxing it out would be as easy as currently it is developing a player's full potential!

So if Player A is currently CA115 PA 185 and he isn't "rotten", you'll be able to turn him into a top-level EPL player. With dynamic PA, you'd do the same with a player CA 115 and Dynamic PA... Even assuming there is a cap to his top-end PA, reaching it will be a breeze.

In the past I suggested a +/- N% PA assessment on a yearly basis, with a 10% cap for consecutive seasons, but in the end it'd all end up tending to 200 anyway. Which would defy the whole point of the improvement, as I suppose we're trying to replicate FAILURE from a promising start, not SUCCESS from an unfavourable condition.

 

2 ore fa, Smurf ha scritto:

This is what I was thinking earlier today. 

Wonderkid-hunting is cumbersome...and not only FM19 but always has been...
Wonderkid lists are kind of cheating... as is Genie Scout as you find exact info on PA.

So there needs to be a middle ground that FM is not providing.

There needs to be.

But adding another variable wouldn't work, because, as explained above, if the current development system isn't tweaked/fixed, things will only get better with every positive performance. So cue plenty of unassuming youngsters blossoming into top-level players due to riding the coattails of a successful team and, often, of a half-exploitative tactics.

 

It's easier than we think though... Cut the importance of Reputation and boost that of performances.

If a young striker has scored 2 in 16, his status within the game should suffer, no matter how good his attributes are on paper. Conversely, an average-looking kid who's been playing great, should attract more interest, even though he's part of a mid-table Championship club and has only decent CA/PA/PPA

That's how clubs end up wasting millions of absolute rubbish while others find great bargains.

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7 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

If a young striker has scored 2 in 16, his status within the game should suffer, no matter how good his attributes are on paper. Conversely, an average-looking kid who's been playing great, should attract more interest, even though he's part of a mid-table Championship club and has only decent CA/PA/PPA

That's how clubs end up wasting millions of absolute rubbish while others find great bargains.

Yes, status and reputation should suffer, but then again, that could be down to playing in a team with bad tactics. 

If I was to think of the likes of Bojan - he was very hotly tipped for greatness, in FM and also at Barcelona in real life. 

I'm pretty sure they saw another Messi in him from a young age - but something happened from having a "PA" of 190 to have a "PA" of 160ish. 

What that something is is a mystery. 

 

What I'm trying to say is that players in the youth level should be able to strive past their PA when all the conditions are met, injury free, playing weekly, playing well (playing bad games would not count), not just the amount of games, responded well to tutoring, responded well to being on loan, playing well at international level - and many other facets of football. 

I even mentioned before that teams should have training reports - where each player is rated on how well they performed in training that week/month/quarter, whatever it is. It can be a "Training Performance" marked out of 100 or even 10 or 1000, it doesn't matter. 

It would give you an indication of how well players are responding in training and who to push forward for a place - especially at youth level. 

Coaches etc would give you an indication of who the top performer in the U19 squad was that week, their training rating, their match performance, on pitch instructions, etc. - of course all this would be relative to how good your coaching staff is. 

Which creates the randomness.

 

If a youth player at 16 is hallmarked to potentially have an ability of 190 - then there needs to be qualifying statements in the game to get him to that level - else, the PA should reduce.

Conversely, if a 16-year-old is potentially earmarked to be a 160 PA then there should be certain conditions can bump this player up to a PA over this to something in the 160+ region. 

I just don't think that ability should be set in stone for a youth player. Yes, not everyone is going to be a Messi or a Ronaldo - or a Maradonna - but some players who were once heralded as the next best thing fizzles out due to many reasons. 

That's why their Potential Goal would be set at say -7 (which I think would give something in the region of PA) - and a few players here and there given a Potential Goal of -9 (say that's 185+)

 

What that would do is give a player a CA (perhaps 99) and a PA (perhaps 140) and a PG (perhaps -8) 
Given the correct circumstances (which are to be defined) that player always has the chance to get to be CA140 and PA140. If they hit that goal at a youth level, then their PG kicks in, and the PG increases to the -8 level (say that's 175). 

Now they have the ability to be better than anyone ever thought. (Plenty examples of footballers who were told they wouldn't make it and MESSI is one of those players due to his small stature).
But I insist the criteria for increasing the PA to the PG level would be strict and a mid to rare chance of occurring. 

As I said, they might be a in a winning team like Barca and Bojan - but the criteria needs to be met, training, loans, performance, internationals, tutoring, etc. all need to combine to force his PG kicking in.

 

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What I fail to mention above is that for example if you have a youth player and there's a CA 100 and PA 150 and PG-9 (185+)

Starting stats: CA 100: PA 150 PG:-9

Age 16: If that player got injured for 6 months 
CA: 90: PA 150 PG: -8

Age 17: If that player then went on loan for a season - played 35 games and did ok
CA: 115: PA 150 PG: -9

Age 18: Responds well to tutoring, has good U19 season, plays international tournament, performs well, training reports great etc.
CA: 130: PA 150 PG: -9

Age 19: Horror injury - out for a year.
CA: 100: PA 150 PG: -7

Age 20: Too old for u19's, nobody wants him on loan due to injuries, can't get into Reserve team.
CA: 95: PA 150 PG: -7

Age 21: Sold to a lower league team. Plays well 
CA: 120: PA 150 PG: -7

Age 24: At this stage has a solid career - playing well 
CA: 140: PA 150 PG: -7

Next 2 seasons continues to do well - and his PG disappears - and he's given a solid PA of 165

Age 26: CA 150 PA 165

His PA has now settled down. 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, RBKalle said:

It's easier than we think though... Cut the importance of Reputation and boost that of performances.

If a young striker has scored 2 in 16, his status within the game should suffer, no matter how good his attributes are on paper. Conversely, an average-looking kid who's been playing great, should attract more interest, even though he's part of a mid-table Championship club and has only decent CA/PA/PPA

That's how clubs end up wasting millions of absolute rubbish while others find great bargains.

I agree wholeheartedly.  Scouts are too good at assessing a player's PA.  I want them to be influenced by performances, just like IRL, and to make signings I later regret because I didn't have near-perfect information.  I doubt it'll ever happen, because I don't think most players want that kind of uncertainty, but for me that would make the game a lot richer and more rewarding. Turn those gold PA stars black!

Edited by Tajerio

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1 hour ago, RBKalle said:

If a young striker has scored 2 in 16, his status within the game should suffer, no matter how good his attributes are on paper. Conversely, an average-looking kid who's been playing great, should attract more interest, even though he's part of a mid-table Championship club and has only decent CA/PA/PPA

 

Kai Havertz- so you're saying because he scored 3 goals in 30 games his status should suffer? 

1479169000_ScreenShot2019-05-22at16_58_16.thumb.png.8add920aabc93872c03b1a7ee7908c90.png

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I think they should maybe do something like  they had in FM mobile where theres a media list of most "hyped up" or best wonder kids where they're ranked, but it depends on a mix of their CA, PA, and form which means that someone high on the list probably has a good PA but its not guaranteed.

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2 ore fa, Smurf ha scritto:

 

Kai Havertz- so you're saying because he scored 3 goals in 30 games his status should suffer? 

1479169000_ScreenShot2019-05-22at16_58_16.thumb.png.8add920aabc93872c03b1a7ee7908c90.png

Marginally but yes!

Also, it'd depend if the 30 apps were short run-ins as a sub in the 80th minute or entire matches played as a starter... A min/goal stat should in fact exist and be a factor for assessing strikers' performances and stature within the game.

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5 hours ago, RBKalle said:

If a young striker has scored 2 in 16, his status within the game should suffer, no matter how good his attributes are on paper. Conversely, an average-looking kid who's been playing great, should attract more interest, even though he's part of a mid-table Championship club and has only decent CA/PA/PPA

One of the biggest flaws of FM, for me, has been the fact everything revolves around CA/PA and reputation. AI teams will completely ignore your CA 120 striker with perfect attribute distribution who scores 40 per season at the top level just because his PA is 130 and he isn't deemed good enough for top clubs.

At first, for me as a player, it feels good to be able to keep this trophy winning player easily for years, but the longer it goes on, the more it ruins the immersion and realism of the save.

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