Wonderkid lists cheating?

[Gee_Simpson]

So I posted this same poll in the good team/players forum, so I thought it would be interesting to see the results of it in here too. 

Basically as the title says, do you see it as cheating? 

[White Flag]

This is just plain silly. Folk can do whetever they want after downloading FM, from then onwards it's their game do do with as they wish. There's no such thing as cheating.

[Gee_Simpson]

2 minutes ago, White Flag said:

This is just plain silly. Folk can do whetever they want after downloading FM, from then onwards it's their game do do with as they wish. There's no such thing as cheating.

Yeah that's fair enough. I just wanted to gauge the response on here as I have seen on reddit etc that people consider it cheating. I disagree by the way, I don't think it's cheating but was interested to see what other people think. 

[Deisler26]

I consider it cheating.

But then, I never buy players so.. 

[99]

1 hora atrás, White Flag disse:

This is just plain silly. Folk can do whetever they want after downloading FM, from then onwards it's their game do do with as they wish. There's no such thing as cheating.

I second this. Do whatever let you have the most fun and joy with your game. Cheating would apply in a multi-player game, if you have advantages ingame that other players can't access. In a single player game like FM there are no cheating, only different types of players that enjoy different types of playing.

Personally, I started in the easy way, using tools like this. Then I made it harder by removing any advantages I could have, because it was a challenge and therefore more fun to me. 

Again, do whatever let you have more fun. Enjoy!

[Gee_Simpson]

57 minutes ago, 99 said:

I second this. Do whatever let you have the most fun and joy with your game. Cheating would apply in a multi-player game, if you have advantages ingame that other players can't access. In a single player game like FM there are no cheating, only different types of players that enjoy different types of playing.

Personally, I started in the easy way, using tools like this. Then I made it harder by removing any advantages I could have, because it was a challenge and therefore more fun to me. 

Again, do whatever let you have more fun. Enjoy!

I see you voted 'yes'. I take it you meant to vote no then? The main thing I avoid now is using downloaded tactics, I used to download OP tactics years ago and even though I found it really fun, after a few years it started to feel cheap and pointless, like the success wasn't my own. 

[99]

53 minutos atrás, Gee_Simpson disse:

I see you voted 'yes'. I take it you meant to vote no then? 

Crap... sorry.

Thing I do in FM is... once it starts to feel super easy, I take a new challenge. Be it a new, lower club, or not accessing any community lists / tactics or whatever... I've downloaded tactics as well, and then I learned from them. What works? Why? When? It's very useful, Then you don't need to download tactics anymore.

[Bothan Spy]

Managers and scouts have Google. So why is it cheating? As a manager I use every way of finding the best young players that I think can to enhance my team. 

The internet search is open to everyone. Of course it's not cheating. If a young player is named on a website as the next whatever, there's no guarante that he will end up that way.

The internet is now part and parcel of the modern game to discover new talent. It's not cheating. 

[Bothan Spy]

If I was a manager of a lower league team with limited resources then I would be all over websites like transfermarkt and the scouting ones. Of course it's not cheating! It's about using the resources that are available to you. It's a tool that needs to be used. Modern managers use it. Those that don't are not utilising a great modern tool. 

I read 442 and world soccer magazine and use them as a great scouting source. Is that cheating? 

 

[Bothan Spy]

I would hope that every modern manager looks at online stuff. Then sensibly sends a scout to watch him. 

I'd be all over 'wonderkids' shortlist IRL. Why not? It's not cheating. It's about getting the best for your team. Just because they are on a wonderkid list doesn't make them brilliant. They need development, training, guidance and encouragement.

The lists are done on a potential rating anyway. There no guarantee that they will end up superstar. 

[Bothan Spy]

I don't watch games in Brazil or Argentina. I don't employ scouts that do either. 

I do have internet access though that tells me that some players are better than others.

It's not rocket science or cheating. Just a couple of clicks away...

[99]

@Bothan Spygood point, things like Wyscout made information accessible to basically anyone. Even Football Manager itself is used by real managers. I know that at least André Villas Boas started that way.

[Bothan Spy]

Is players on the game having attributes cheating? How would anyone know or be able to mark out of 20 if player A or B has a 12 or 14 for passing? It's just a matter of opinion. All done by a 'scout' of that team that has no formal training. As is a wonderkid shortlist. 

If someone, heaven forbid, employed me IRL as a manager of a football team, my first port of call would be the internet and so called wonderkids shortlists. Just so I have some sort of clue who to sign! 

[Gee_Simpson]

I agree with all your points, I don't see it as cheating either. Also, I used to disable attribute masking but I leave it on now. 

[yolixeya]

I do see it as cheating. If you download some wonderkids lists, that makes your scouting networks and knowledge useless in the game. I assume that those scouts and data analysts in game already use all the tools available to them, including internet. If I use some lists on top of that, that breaks up my immersion. And those list usually include all wonderkids no matter what their reputation is. Think of all the talented kids  in the world nobody has heard of yet. You wouldn't find them in any internet search yet those wonderkid lists will give you any players with good PA. It is kinda cheating.

I used to google before, when I was younger, my excuse was that I don't want to waste time with searching for a player, I want to play. But searching for the players is also playing, i can spend 2-3 hours at times just searching for players to scout. And it's much more rewarding when you find the player by yourself or through your scouts. Before, I just took it for granted. if I miss to sign some wonderkid, no big deal.  I'll just sign another one. Know I can really appreciate when I find one. And if I don't have the money to get him, I'll constatly check on him to see if big clubs are snooping around. It's much more fun playing it the right way.

[Gee_Simpson]

 

20 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

I do see it as cheating. If you download some wonderkids lists, that makes your scouting networks and knowledge useless in the game. I assume that those scouts and data analysts in game already use all the tools available to them, including internet. If I use some lists on top of that, that breaks up my immersion. And those list usually include all wonderkids no matter what their reputation is. Think of all the talented kids  in the world nobody has heard of yet. You wouldn't find them in any internet search yet those wonderkid lists will give you any players with good PA. It is kinda cheating.

I used to google before, when I was younger, my excuse was that I don't want to waste time with searching for a player, I want to play. But searching for the players is also playing, i can spend 2-3 hours at times just searching for players to scout. And it's much more rewarding when you find the player by yourself or through your scouts. Before, I just took it for granted. if I miss to sign some wonderkid, no big deal.  I'll just sign another one. Know I can really appreciate when I find one. And if I don't have the money to get him, I'll constatly check on him to see if big clubs are snooping around. It's much more fun playing it the right way.

I'm not downloading any shortlists and inserting them into my game, I'm merely looking at some of the lists online a couple of times, or looking through the hidden gems thread in the good player and team guide forums. I don't consider it cheating tbh. 

[DivineOne]

13 hours ago, White Flag said:

This is just plain silly. Folk can do whetever they want after downloading FM, from then onwards it's their game do do with as they wish. There's no such thing as cheating.

I agree with the first part. But it's not because it's not a problem that it isn't cheating. Of course it is.

[Zemahh]

11 hours ago, Bothan Spy said:

Managers and scouts have Google. So why is it cheating?

Well, Google may find you other's opinions or stats for a player, but it will not give you a detailed attribute list, which ultimately decides everything in FM. When assessing a player in real life, you need to know what to look for, or at the very least, you have to put trust in his statistics. FM Wonderkid lists however, are based on players with great CA/PA that you can get for cheap and since mathematical numbers are all that matters in this game, you can be pretty sure that most of them will do well. So in that sense, I personally consider it "cheating". Obviously you're going to do well, if you bring in a few confirmed potential world beaters for peanuts.

But of course, everyone's free to play the game however they want. It's a game after all, so do whatever brings you the most fun.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Not cheating. Even if it was, I don't care, it's a singleplayer game and you should be free to do what you want.

 

But, with wonderkid lists etc, I'd just consider it a bit of meta-knowledge. Not really much difference from you knowing who Robin van Persie is etc. Plus, lots of people do meta-research on games before they play, for example, character builds or the optimum choices in RPGs, puzzle solutions in adventure games etc. That's all perfectly normal research.

In addition, having a list of wonderkids doesn't mean you're actually going to be able to use them or train them efficiently. 

[MBarbaric]

there are no wonderkid lists in real that would be remotely comparable to a wonderkid lists on FM where players are listed based on their CA/PA. of course, it is cheating. how is that even debatable? 

However, anyone plays the game as they want.

[herne79]

I guess we'd better stop real life clubs using FM's database.  We wouldn't want them cheating now would we .

[yolixeya]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

I guess we'd better stop real life clubs using FM's database.  We wouldn't want them cheating now would we .

Then again, maybe your scouts in game are already using various tools including FM database. It's like Inception, it's a game within a game within a game...   

[Rashidi]

3 hours ago, herne79 said:

I guess we'd better stop real life clubs using FM's database.  We wouldn't want them cheating now would we .

They aren't cheating right, they paid for it :-) Indirectly they are leveraging off SI's scouting system. 

[99]

Now let's look at lists like these (real life):

https://www.90min.com/posts/6240719-50-of-the-best-young-players-in-world-football

https://www.goal.com/en/lists/nxgn-2018-the-50-best-teenagers-in-the-world/1uzkmt4w432v813xuj6bgxv164

This is online and accessible by every single person on the planet with an internet connection. Meaning managers, scouts, directors and so on.

What would be the fundamental difference between this wonderkid lists IRL or the wonderkid lists to FM?

[phnompenhandy]

'Course it is, but so what?

[nie jem frytek]

22 minutes ago, 99 said:

What would be the fundamental difference between this wonderkid lists IRL or the wonderkid lists to FM?

Players on real life lists end up nobodies more often than not.

Wonderkids searched by their PA in pre-game editor always have high PA.

 

Also the lists you provided are laughable. They have 20-something year old global stars on them including the world 2nd and 3rd most expensive players ever... they are not a wonderkids, they've stopped being them about 5 years ago.

[99]

6 minutos atrás, nie jem frytek disse:

Players on real life lists end up nobodies more often than not.

Wonderkids searched by their PA in pre-game editor always have high PA.

 

Also the lists you provided are laughable. They have 20-something year old global stars on them including the world 2nd and 3rd most expensive players ever... they are not a wonderkids, they've stopped being them about 5 years ago.

The accuracy was not the point mate, I didn't even bothered to check the names present because it was beside the point... just the lists themselves. Also high PA is different from a future high CA. Most of the players never reach their potential, both in-game and IRL.

[santy001]

It's not exactly cheating, but hardly the most "sporting" or balanced thing in a game context either. That just comes down to the fact there is more known quantities in a game. 

Player development, hidden attributes and luck of the draw with injuries etc don't make it cast iron. And we're certainly on the path of moving away from there being a huge list of known gems every year, which is down to SI's iterative development in this area.

Personally I don't really make use of them, but it depends on your playstyle because attributes, judging players etc isn't my weakness tactics tends to be and I'll frequently download tactics to have a nose at how the minds of others put things together.

Really the only thing I'd say is that if you post on forums or online in general boasting about how great you are, but your team has been built solely off the -10/-9/-8 player shortlists then you're probably not that great. Same is true with a team and downloaded tactics. 

[Bigpole]

I always compared these wonderkids list to best set-ups in racing games. If you're not at least in top 10% (in racing) or if you can not create a decent tactic - these lists/setups won't give you an advantage.

[ajt]

I usually don't have enough money to buy any of the well known high PA ones before the AI does  the only players I buy consistently if I have the opportunity are

Spoiler

thiago almada (sometimes trincao)

 but I don't use an AMC anymore so one of them is kind of a waste.

I don't even really keep up with world football anymore and I certainly don't watch those hype videos on youtube; don't really have much of a clue of who's supposed be any good lol. really only have interest in watching southampton matches and match of the day/english clubs in europe. just watch a lot less football than when I was younger tbh.

also I might be in the minority but I don't even really like playing with the starting players, I like to get my regens on board and start developing them as soon as possible. I find that I enjoy the game much more once I get into the 2030s and most of the real players are retiring.

[Zemahh]

5 hours ago, Bigpole said:

If you're not at least in top 10% (in racing) or if you can not create a decent tactic - these lists/setups won't give you an advantage.

I don't see the comparison there—in racing games you still do the driving yourself, while in FM you don't really control the players directly. Even if you have no idea what you're doing tactically, most of the time their attributes will pull you through, if they're better than the opposition. It's all about the numbers.

[Smurf]

I do think once you are a manager you would automatically know who wonderkids are in your scouting knowledge. 

And of course the more scouts and the wider the knowledge you should automatically know of wonderkids.

I'm sure every manager right down to lower divisions of leagues know who the next up and coming star is in most leagues. 

[yolixeya]

On 04/05/2019 at 12:18, isignedupfornorealreason said:

lots of people do meta-research on games before they play, for example, character builds or the optimum choices in RPGs, puzzle solutions in adventure games etc. That's all perfectly normal research.

We have to distinguish "normal research" from just copying. I google those best charachter builds when I play RPG game but I'm not fooling myself that it is not cheating. Because I'm copying what someone else came up with. When I look for some data, for example, where to forge certain sword, or where to find certain item, it saves time but it's kinda cheating. I'm supposed to find that myself.

To translate it in FM, any copying is considered cheating in my book.

copy or DL tactic from someone else = cheating ; learn the principles someone is using and crete your own tactic = not cheating

copy some names, shortilists etc. = cheating; learn to use scouting, and finding those players on your own = not cheating

It's simple as that.

[sporadicsmiles]

It is not cheating really, but it does give the human manager an immediate advantage over the AI. It is like you have a crystal ball and know exactly who will become amazing in the future. Then again, you have an advantage over the AI simply by being human anyway. I tend to get around this by only signing players who appear in my scout reports, but this is just my own personal way to enjoy the game.

[Arsenal457]

2 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

It is not cheating really, but it does give the human manager an immediate advantage over the AI. It is like you have a crystal ball and know exactly who will become amazing in the future. Then again, you have an advantage over the AI simply by being human anyway. I tend to get around this by only signing players who appear in my scout reports, but this is just my own personal way to enjoy the game.

I do that too, but occasionally I’ll search players I know are good, but that I’m a big fan of like Havertz and Joao Felix.

[sporadicsmiles]

26 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

I do that too, but occasionally I’ll search players I know are good, but that I’m a big fan of like Havertz and Joao Felix. 

I think players like that are well known enough that you should be aware of them as a football manager anyway. I guess that is the way to get around this if you want to role play as well. Any decent manager should know about the best young players in the game.

[Zemahh]

The game already has a built in Player/Youngster Knowledge slider, which you can modify when creating a manager. If you want to simulate the "every decent manager should know the players" way of thinking, then you simply increase both to 20 and that's it. Besides that, you should see players with highest reputation in Player Search either way, regardless of where you're managing at. But don't fool yourself that looking at a list of young players with confirmed great CA/PA, that you can often get for cheap as well, is not cheating. Might as well disable the Attribute Masking. 

[enigmatic]

Nah.

Most clubs can't afford to buy wonderkids anyway, most players on wonderkid lists have a massively variable PA (from "improve a little bit" to "next Harry Kane"), some wonderkids don't develop properly even with high potential, and within 6-12 months a load of new potential wonderkids that don't exist in other people's games will be coming through. Plus most people in the football world have heard of most of the real life wonderkids anyway. I believe the literal definition used to apply the term "wonderkid" to a player in FM is "well above average current ability and reputation for his age"

Of all the things you'd want to use someone else's help off the internet for, massively expensive young players that aren't guaranteed to turn out as good as their reputation suggests they might become and aren't quite good enough for your starting XI would be near the bottom. Knowing which players that are roughly the same ability level (and price) as the rest of the league but have massively superior personalities and consistency is a much bigger edge, as is knowing low release clauses. As are the downloadable exploit tactics...

[99]

7 horas atrás, sporadicsmiles disse:

It is like you have a crystal ball and know exactly who will become amazing in the future.

But the thing is, you don't. You only know who have the biggest potential. But you don't know if they will actually evolve to all that potential, at best you can only estimate given determination, personality, quality of your coaches and training facilities in a certain age, quality and amount of game time in another certain age and so forth. Not to mention long term injuries that can screw it all. A player with high potential may become rubish. Just like IRL.

"Failed wonderkids" is a thing for a reason.

[Arsenal457]

How do you even get the most out of wonderkids? 

[Flashman]

Do the AI managers in game have access to these lists?  If not, then I guess you're gaining an(other) unfair advantage over the AI if you use them.

 

But yeah, if it's fun for you to play like that then go for it!

[Arsenal457]

2 hours ago, Flashman said:

Do the AI managers in game have access to these lists?  If not, then I guess you're gaining an(other) unfair advantage over the AI if you use them.

 

But yeah, if it's fun for you to play like that then go for it!

No they have no access, though certain players I have noticed seem to join the same club.

[Welshace]

On 03/05/2019 at 20:38, White Flag said:

This is just plain silly. Folk can do whetever they want after downloading FM, from then onwards it's their game do do with as they wish. There's no such thing as cheating.

That would depend..

 

It's cheating if you come onto any public forum or space to talk about your success without disclosing the fact you used a premade list of players you already know will become gods in game.. 

It's not cheating if you do so without the comforts of your own personal game and dont pass it off as your own genius at work.

[Welshace]

18 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

No they have no access, though certain players I have noticed seem to join the same club.

That's down to a number of things..

 

The team's needs, the manager traits etc

[Smurf]

I still reckon there should be a global knowledge of world class players and a global knowledge of wonderkids as a given. 

Especially this day and age. Everyone knows who the next up and coming youngster wonderkid is. 

Uefa have a website dedicated to it - https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2528631.html 

News outlets generate articles on them https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2018/oct/11/next-generation-2018-60-of-the-best-young-talents-in-world-football

https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/wonderkids-top-10-youngsters-born-in-2005-under-15-players

There's even that kid Harvey Elliot that everyone is talking about. 

I think football manager needs to catch up in this regard. There are no secrets in world football anymore. Everyone knows who the up and coming stars are. 

FM should develop in this regard. With rumoured wonderkids, even a dedicated scouting team to scout wonderkids in your scouting region (it might be a bit unrealistic for the Macclesfield Town scouting team to head to Bolivia to scout the wonderkids there, but it wouldn't be unheard of them to travel to head to Manchester/Liverpool/Leeds to see what wonderkids are like at those clubs and try to get them on loan, for example. 

Also, likes of top 6 in the best leagues would automatically scout the wonderkids in their scouting networks, and you should have that list available. 

And wonderkids don't automatically become superstars. If you sign a bunch of wonderkids, there should be things you need to do to nurture them into fulfilling their potential, besides loaning them out until they make it or playing them in every match. 

 

And there should be a variation in their potential, giving wonderkids a negative value which only transcends into a CA/PA number when criteria are met. I am not saying that babysitting needs to be done. 

But there could be special training camps, mentoring, hiring specialists coaches. Loaning to clubs as a valuable player and being able to give out that club when they are not playing. Or a player requesting to end their loan period due to lack of playing time or played in the wrong position.

 

Wonderkids need to be integrated better.

[YouReds]

Not cheating and neither is using Genie Scout....

[Bothan Spy]

5 hours ago, YouReds said:

Not cheating and neither is using Genie Scout....

Genie scout is definitely cheating! Lol 

[Smurf]

1 hour ago, Bothan Spy said:

Genie scout is definitely cheating! Lol 

I don't think so. You can go on to google right now and look up all the wonderkids in world football. A manager can do just that right now too. 

Using genie scout is akin to scouring the internet for youth leagues and good young players. 

[Bothan Spy]

27 minutes ago, Smurf said:

I don't think so. You can go on to google right now and look up all the wonderkids in world football. A manager can do just that right now too. 

Using genie scout is akin to scouring the internet for youth leagues and good young players. 

Wonderkid shortlists are just a few names bandied about on the net that have had a good season IRL.

Genie scout is more mathematical and deals with attributes and potential ratings. If it wasn't a bit of a cheat, it wouldn't be called, "Genie Scout" would it? Ha ha.

[Gee_Simpson]

I draw the line at using genie scout tbh.