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So, Im in my 3 season with Cardiff. I came in 7th the first year, without any transfers. Next year I came in 3 place and got knocked out in semi finals of EL. I made some really great signings before the 3 season. The kind of signings, that could win you the title. Started off really strong, but t his season I notised something really strange. You have all probably seen this complaint a number of times, but in 7 of about 25-30 games (roughly 30 per cent) This happens...   

 

Now I know what most of you are going to say.. This happens to every top team now and then, blablabla.. But the fact is that 6 of those games was played after one another. So this is highly unrealistic..

 

Im playing a controll style of football. Free flowing. Dominating the vast majority of my games. I dont really know how to read opponents tactical changes DURING the game itself. It seems to me that they are all playing really conservative defensively minded football maybe.. But the fact is still the same, It is not possible to be outresulted like that in 6 games in row...

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I'm sorry, but these just come across as the rantings of someone who is looking for excuses for their own managerial failings. Claiming that it is "impossible" to be "outresulted" 6 games in a row also suggests at arrogance and an unwillingness to take action when results go wrong.

Football is not just a game of "the team with the most shots and/or possession wins". Having 47 shots on goal against one of the worst teams in the league doesn't mean you're entitled to win 5-0. Atalanta had 47 shots against Empoli the other week and didn't score, largely because Empoli defended brilliantly, but perhaps also because Atalanta didn't really have a Plan B.

If you're consistently 'dominating' matches and not getting the results you expect, then you're likely doing something wrong. Looking at the stats of some of those matches suggests to me that you are potentially very vulnerable to counter-attacks. It might be worth posting up screenshots of your tactics (team instructions, and player roles and duties), so we can see if your defence doesn't have enough protection, or if your attack is too predictable or unsuited to breaking down defensive teams.

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I'm assuming that's a downloaded tactic, but it looks like it's being countered against.

What roles and duties have you got in there?

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2 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

I'm assuming that's a downloaded tactic, but it looks like it's being countered against.

What roles and duties have you got in there?

That is correct. It is downloaded, and tweaked, so its not 100% authentic. See if you could read something out of the following pics.

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Analysis vs Stoke6.jpg

Analysis vs Stoke7.jpg

tactics ,roles and duties..jpg

Team report.jpg

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, CFuller said:

I'm sorry, but these just come across as the rantings of someone who is looking for excuses for their own managerial failings. Claiming that it is "impossible" to be "outresulted" 6 games in a row also suggests at arrogance and an unwillingness to take action when results go wrong.

Football is not just a game of "the team with the most shots and/or possession wins". Having 47 shots on goal against one of the worst teams in the league doesn't mean you're entitled to win 5-0. Atalanta had 47 shots against Empoli the other week and didn't score, largely because Empoli defended brilliantly, but perhaps also because Atalanta didn't really have a Plan B.

If you're consistently 'dominating' matches and not getting the results you expect, then you're likely doing something wrong. Looking at the stats of some of those matches suggests to me that you are potentially very vulnerable to counter-attacks. It might be worth posting up screenshots of your tactics (team instructions, and player roles and duties), so we can see if your defence doesn't have enough protection, or if your attack is too predictable or unsuited to breaking down defensive teams.

Man I get what you mean, but is this game supposed to be dead serious for all the players around the globe? Do we all have to study the hell out of every detail and every inch of the game to have any success? Im not a bad manager per se, it is more of a motivational factor than anything else. Sometimes I want to just play as a top team, and, maybe win MOST games that I dominate and then just have fun with it. Thats it. See, I dont have any problems with losing, whatsoever. It is when I get 6 games in row with 14 CCC for my team and maybe 3 against and only pick some 5 points or so... Do you see Pep do any detailed changes in games against weaker teams? No, because there is no need for that, City will win 99 out of 100 games vs any weaker botton table team. So will Atalanta too, 

NEVER 6 games in row with these ridiculous stats..

Edited by kireel

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, kireel said:

Man I get what you mean, but is this game supposed to be dead serious for all the players around the globe? Do we all have to study the hell out of every detail and every inch of the game to have any success? Im not a bad manager per se, it is more of a motivation factor that anything else. Sometimes I want to just play as a top team and, win MOST games that I dominate and have fun with it. Thats it. See, I dont have any problems with losing, whatsoever. It is when I get 6 games in row with 14 CCC for my team and maybe 3 against and only pick some 5 points or so... Do you see Pep do any detailed changes in games against weaker teams? No, because there is no need for that, City will win 99 out of 100 games vs any weak botton table team. So will Atalanta too, 

NEVER 6 games in row with these ridiculous stats..

Believe me, you do not have to study every minute detail to be even moderately successful at this game. I have never paid a huge amount of attention to the analytics tools in FM, and I can still overachieve somewhat every season. That's the beauty of FM; you have the freedom to manage how you want, and put us much or as little work in as you want.

Then again, I tend to build my own tactics and keep them relatively simple. The tactic you've posted in your response to gunner86... I, I just don't know how exactly it works. It's so convoluted, and you've selected so many team instructions, several of which seem to be counter-productive for some of the player roles you've set. It's no wonder you've struggled of late.

I would be interested to see what response you would get by posting your set-up on the Tactics Forum.

You are also forgetting that different opponents in different scenarios require different approaches. Playing Barcelona at Camp Nou will provide a completely different challenge to playing Huddersfield at home, for example. Going into those two games with exactly the same tactics and exactly the same approach - and expecting to thrash Huddersfield after beating Barcelona - is misguided at best, and hubristic at worst.

Edited by CFuller

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A bit of an odd formation but for me it lacks variety of play and movement.  Apart from the 2 strikers it's very symmetrical, everyone doing the exact same thing down both flanks or through the centre.  I'm sure it will dominate a lot of matches, flooding the midfield with the IWBs, but without variety you may struggle to break down some teams.

BTW you may also be expecting a bit too much.  As evidence to support your frustrations the first two matches you posted were away losses at Juventus and Man Utd, and you didn't exactly dominate either of those matches.  You're Cardiff 3 season in and not title contenders yet.  Be patient.

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You are using a downloaded tactic and have admitted you do not know how to read the matches as they are going (that is okay, a lot of people do not, it is tough). It is hardly a surprise you are therefore seeing adverse results. I also really like the fact that you have created a moan thread about realism, which starts with you talking about finishing 7th and 3rd in the first two seasons with Cardiff. Talk about ironic! Anyway I see nothing dodgy about this, you are just annoyed (as many people would be) that you have had a tough run of games. I lost a champion's league quarter final last night to a 40 yard wonder goal from nothing. It happens.

You are getting done on the counter, clearly. You are also having a bunch of shots and a bunch of corners. You do not show it, but I can tell you are taking a lot of long shots, and creating a bunch of poor quality chances. Hence the lack of scoring. The AI is creating few chances, but they are clearly better in quality. I assume that this is one of those hyper aggressive formations permanently set on attack that uses inside wing backs on both sides to provide bodies in the middle. That will leave you exposed, and teams who are set up to exploit it will be able to exploit it. This follows a typical pattern you see a lot. Your style initially suits being an underdog. Teams attack you and give you space. The tactic is designed to exploit that. You win a lot. Your rep goes up. Teams take you more seriously. You do not have the same space to attack you had before, and performances suffer. Not to mention you have zero midfield cover. The last time I faced the AI version of this tactic, I absolutely destroyed them through the middle. 

Since you are downloading tactics, I will not lecture you on creating tactics (I understand some people prefer to play this way). So instead I would suggest you download a tactic that is able to see out a match once you have the lead. There is no point going hell-for-leather all the time if it leaves you open for counter attacks. You could also look to transition towards a different tactic which is more suited to breaking sides down who are being defensive. 

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37 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I also really like the fact that you have created a moan thread about realism, which starts with you talking about finishing 7th and 3rd in the first two seasons with Cardiff.

You saved me having to say this :thup:

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Only on these forums could people complain that the real problem with emulating reality was not their Cardiff title challenge, but that it was being set back by Juventus and Man Utd having better finishers....

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Posted (edited)

Stupid me, posting something in a forum, where to some people the main objective is to be a smartass =) Thanks to all , who managed to stay on point tho ! Ill try to be more openminded to details and tactical tweaks!

Edited by kireel

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I mean, there's a serious point in there: you dominate possession like Man City because TFF's tactic is very overpowered, but your players are nowhere near as good so it's not surprising you don't score like them.

Or indeed that Dybala and Ronaldo prove to be better at taking all their chances against you, most of which are better chances

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To me it just looks to have the airs of a system which will get you high up the field and sat around the edges of an opponents box. If a team is inclined to sit back and then look for a chance to counter, should they get one then the odds are you've got the majority of your team too far up the pitch to really be able to do much when they surge on the break. 

One thing that's massively underestimated in FM is creating a space for your opposition to attack. It's far easier when you give the opponents something that looks like a route to goal and to commit players to but is actually quite safe.

There's plenty of ways to do it, a high line with extremely fast and reactionary defenders. Three at the back who are absolute physical units to make wing play seem the best route for opponents but to stand little chance. A lot of issues also arise after all when your defensive line is just incredibly solid and offers little route so the opposition then start chancing their arm with long shots. It's not usually too risky to let teams do this, but then every so often someones going to pull off a world class goal, that happens less so when they try to attack a flaw by design approach.

Certainly downloaded tactics can help you see why someone does something a certain way, but they're very often predicated on very specific players or specific attributes. There's not much of an issue dominating a team and sitting on the edge of their box if your players have excellent movement attributes, if you're a team that has extreme pace in its ranks though you're negating most of your advantage because in such a condensed patch of play it counts for nothing.

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Posted (edited)

So I have a different question here. As I was trying myself as a more, lets say Benitez type of a manager (being concerned with all kind of details and micromanaging the hack out of every team) I came across an understanding, that Determination, Workrate and Pace are among the most rewarding attributes in this game. I mean, I always build my team based on those 3 attributes. Never under 15 in determination. Ive been doing so for the last 10 years at least (in FM era) and always had success. But the question is how do you create a tactic based on average players attributes in a team. I mean if my strikers are among the strongest and tallest strikers in the league, how do I channel that info into action tactically speaking? Do I play a more longball oriented style of football?

Or for instance, if my players have the best conmposure in the league? Or Anticipation? How do I use that as my teams strenth? Any help?

Edited by kireel

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1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:

You are using a downloaded tactic and have admitted you do not know how to read the matches as they are going (that is okay, a lot of people do not, it is tough). It is hardly a surprise you are therefore seeing adverse results. I also really like the fact that you have created a moan thread about realism, which starts with you talking about finishing 7th and 3rd in the first two seasons with Cardiff. Talk about ironic! Anyway I see nothing dodgy about this, you are just annoyed (as many people would be) that you have had a tough run of games. I lost a champion's league quarter final last night to a 40 yard wonder goal from nothing. It happens.

You are getting done on the counter, clearly. You are also having a bunch of shots and a bunch of corners. You do not show it, but I can tell you are taking a lot of long shots, and creating a bunch of poor quality chances. Hence the lack of scoring. The AI is creating few chances, but they are clearly better in quality. I assume that this is one of those hyper aggressive formations permanently set on attack that uses inside wing backs on both sides to provide bodies in the middle. That will leave you exposed, and teams who are set up to exploit it will be able to exploit it. This follows a typical pattern you see a lot. Your style initially suits being an underdog. Teams attack you and give you space. The tactic is designed to exploit that. You win a lot. Your rep goes up. Teams take you more seriously. You do not have the same space to attack you had before, and performances suffer. Not to mention you have zero midfield cover. The last time I faced the AI version of this tactic, I absolutely destroyed them through the middle. 

Since you are downloading tactics, I will not lecture you on creating tactics (I understand some people prefer to play this way). So instead I would suggest you download a tactic that is able to see out a match once you have the lead. There is no point going hell-for-leather all the time if it leaves you open for counter attacks. You could also look to transition towards a different tactic which is more suited to breaking sides down who are being defensive. 

You mention something about my team clearly being countered to pieces. So my simple counter-question would be this- how do they do that, when I'm totally controlling the game with the positive mentality?? Isnt it the philosophy, that is supposed to stop opponents from counter attacking you? And slowly choke them? 

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Quote

Is this game supposed to emulate reailty?

 

4 hours ago, kireel said:

So, Im in my 3 season with Cardiff. I came in 7th the first year, without any transfers. Next year I came in 3 place and got knocked out in semi finals of EL.

Image result for oh you

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24 minutes ago, forameuss said:

 

Image result for oh you

Man. I've got it in with a tea spoon now =) 

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11 minutes ago, kireel said:

Man. I've got it in with a tea spoon now =) 

Well it was an easy comment to make.  So many people fall into the trap of complaining that things aren't realistic in the game, but think it's fine that you can take one of the weaker squads in the league to the Europa League semis in less than 2 years.  

I'd say your achievements are far less realistic than the situation you're complaining about to be honest.

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12 hours ago, kireel said:

You mention something about my team clearly being countered to pieces. So my simple counter-question would be this- how do they do that, when I'm totally controlling the game with the positive mentality?? Isnt it the philosophy, that is supposed to stop opponents from counter attacking you? And slowly choke them? 

I do not know the tactic because I do not download tactics or take a look at them very often (when I do it is to follow the evolution, which I find interesting). No problem with those who do, everyone can play how they want. No lectures from me! I say that because I am extrapolating from what I remember (and suspect) about the tactic you use. I could be wrong on some points.

Getting countered can happen no matter how much you control possession. Counter attacking just needs you to give the ball away in a bad area, or during a transition. If you have committed enough people forward and they are caught out of position, you can be vulnerable. From your tactic, I would assume that it uses IWB (I do not know the duty, but it is not that important here anyway). I guess your two forwards are on attack. The central midfield either on attack or a BBM (something that gets further forward). The wide players will be pushed up anyway in an attacking style. All this means you are short on numbers at the back. It only takes one error to allow for a good counter attacking chance for the AI against that. It could be a long ball to the flanks where a striker is waiting. Or you could lose the ball in midfield and end up 2v3 or some iteration of that. When it is a team like Man Utd or Juventus, they have the players to really hurt you in those situations. Which appears to be what has happened (or not, it is impossible to tell and I am extrapolating). Even if your tactic is allowing you to dominate, Man Utd, Juventus et al have better players than you. They can hurt you if they get only one good chance. You can also add that if you play on attack, this means more risks, which means more chance to lose the ball, which means more chances for counter attacks.

If I were to set up against a formation like this, I would flood the midfield to deny space, and leave at least two players up front to counter attack with. Packing the midfield will frustrate your attempts to score, and I would hope to force errors/long shots. Get the ball to those players I leave up front early and they have all the space in the world. Most counter attack attempts would fail, but I only need one or two to work well. That is the essence of counter attacking. With a team like Man Utd (i.e. with better players) I would expect to be able to soak up pressure from your side. Hell, with a good team I would look to dominate possession against this formation, which has such a weak midfield presence I would expect to be able to keep the ball for long periods if I wanted. The AI is not so intelligent as that, which is why these kind of tactics work.

Pretty much any time you push a lot of players forward, you leave yourself open to counter attacks. It is the risk you take in committing a lot of players to attack. If this is a problem, I would definitely recommend a plan B tactic.

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13 hours ago, kireel said:

You mention something about my team clearly being countered to pieces. So my simple counter-question would be this- how do they do that, when I'm totally controlling the game with the positive mentality?? Isnt it the philosophy, that is supposed to stop opponents from counter attacking you? And slowly choke them? 

There are some assumptions being made that you are left open to counter attacks.  Is that actually the case?  Only you know for certain.

Anyway, regarding the above quote the Positive mentality is - in reality - a fairly risky mentality to use, especially as it sets a fairly high defensive line by default which you have then raised even higher using the Team Instruction.  It's possible to use such a high def line of course, but it's advisable to try to mitigate such a risk by using such things as pacey centre backs, the offside trap (although not if you use a stopper/cover combo) and a sweeper keeper to help protect you from balls played in behind your defence.

But then that's another assumption that that may be happening and again only you know for sure.  Are there any patterns in opposition attacks which you regularly notice?

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Posted (edited)

I had this as well for a stretch of 3 games . It was like WTF is going on . Everyone comes up with the excuses that its your fault . Easier to blame the manager than the game I guess . I had one game I posted on here that I lost after 48 shots on goal and the opposition had 1 shot on goal and scored . Yes it can happen randomly but not a with successive games in a row . I gave up on FM19 and went back to FM17 as this never happens in that game . Better graphics and ME too . So I know where your coming from

Edited by prot651

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Posted (edited)

Next time somebody is arguing moar shots in 2019 (!) I'm honestly going to slit my throat.  Can anybody see Guardiola et all logging on to whoscored, take a look at sojme numbers, and concluding he had a good game? [But then the game's Feedback puts much importance on those also]. Looking at those Corner numbers alone, shall we take a guess.

0BUga6T.png

(And yes it absolutely happens -- or Dortmund would have never been 18th place in February 2015, Real trailing dozens of Points Barcelona last term; all  with Managers who actually know their Job too). This isn't even possible in-game, as similar to the nerf'd injuries, SI try to Keep Player Frustration as low as possible whilst still somewhat emulatic what is going on in footie. And if you think that's White-washing the game, that isn't. This is all Happening to professionials, after all, whilst us bed-room wannabes on FM get away with way too much and in General in particular longer term have a far more predictable experience than what Football tends to have on offer. However, the AI on this game also tends to Play extremely defensive Football a tad often; because that's all such a Domination in simpleton stats in itself first is; one Team sitting Deep soaking up denying superior space, and the other advancing over and over. On FM, you'd never see an "Underdog" really pushing Forward much, whereas in real Football even a 2nd Bundesliga Team can make ist full backs bomb forwarding when facing Bayern Munich (on the Occasion).

(:P) 


As of downloaded tactics, part of the Problem is that a) the game allows tactical Input and movement/Play Patterns that have Little to do with how Football is played on a pitch (which is the games fault, as it pretents to simulate Football, after all). And b) downloaded tactics oft don't care About "realistic" Football, but try to throw stuff onto the AI / engine until it collapses. However, every AI tends to Play a bit differently… They also lead to inherently huge overperformances, so when Teams Play more cautiously, Players tend to face more robust defenses with inferior Players... (I'm still waiting for an FAQ in these download sections too, it seems few get the problem with it all but I disgress).

Edited by Svenc

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Mate youre having unrealistic success with a Championship side from Wales. So unrealistic a downloadable tactic can give even the most horrific sides this sort of success. All comes down to very poor AI 

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, herne79 said:

BTW you may also be expecting a bit too much.  As evidence to support your frustrations the first two matches you posted were away losses at Juventus and Man Utd, and you didn't exactly dominate either of those matches.  You're Cardiff 3 season in and not title contenders yet.  Be patient.

he didn't dominate those games, are you sure? FM has never been good at replicating how bad results happen. the issue here is how could Cardiff outpass and have double amount of shots against top class teams, especially with such tactics. this is clasic ''you've been fmd'' scenario in which avarage teams too easily dominate shootiong and other stats. playing against better teams was always easy, in fm19 even more than ever. and we're again into horrible AI tactics/mentality discussion. :D  

there's nothing wrong with loosing but i must agree with OP loosing in such manner seems highly unrealistic with a team like Cardiff. if Man Utd and Juve can't doninate against you then what's the challenge in this game?

1 hour ago, prot651 said:

I had this as well for a stretch of 3 games . It was like WTF is going on . Everyone comes up with the excuses that its your fault . Easier to blame the manager than the game I guess . I had one game I posted on here that I lost after 48 shots on goal and the opposition had 1 shot on goal and scored . Yes it can happen randomly but not a with successive games in a row . I gave up on FM19 and went back to FM17 as this never happens in that game . Better graphics and ME too . So I know where your coming from

it happens in fm17 too maybe not as pronounced as in 19 where playing against better teams is super easy but it happens. for example in my first season i could easily outpass most opponents and have double amount of passing attempts and after few seasons every team plays exactly the same boring retain possession style against me and i can't do nothing about it. most teams have more passes on avarage than my super strong team now.

Edited by Mitja

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Mitja said:

 

it happens in fm17 too maybe not as pronounced as in 19

On FM 17 third division sides could outpass top flight Teams as well as pulling their backline apart simply by having a man Edge in the middle of the park (AI vs AI as well). Whilst FM19 like any release may have it's own issues, the centre of the pitch, easily the most vulnerable of them all, was basically FFA. :P Pitches aren't controlled on the flanks, and the centre of the pitch is also the shortest distance to Goal, in-game in a Computer Simulation like Sensi Soccer, Kick Off 2, FM -- or otherwise. 

The reason I bring any of this up is not making a case for or against any release. The reason I bring any of this up is that the game's simpleton stats posted all over this thread, which nobody in the Football Industry except for broadcasters cares an ounce about, don't Show any this. The match Play does.

Edited by Svenc

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28 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Next time somebody is arguing moar shots in 2019 (!) I'm honestly going to slit my throat.  [But then the game's Feedback puts much importance on those also]. Looking at those Corner numbers alone, shall we take a guess.

0BUga6T.png

 

i think everyone having +20hots per game and 50% on target in 6 games in a row and comming out with 2 points from these games has right to question realism about it. 

we forget 20 shots in game is a looooot...and usually enough to score. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Mitja said:

i think everyone having +20hots per game and 50% on target in 6 games in a row and comming out with 2 points from these games has right to question realism about it. 

we forget 20 shots in game is a looooot...and usually enough to score. 


Surely it depends on the shots? Have you ever tried to Play defensive Football on this? Do you know what the Primary objective of defensive Football may be? 

Plus, what does it matter if every time the ball is dropped Things fall apart and the Opponent can walk into the box? 

The game already doesn't simulate any of the extreme Frustration that on Occasion happens in Football in any Kind of way. If you Show me CR7 barely scoring off over 100 shots in the league for a half a year, I'll reconsider. SI would never even Approach to simulate any of such, as Players would return their game (unless CR7 was playing for the AI, and him not scoring was to the player's Advantage, sigh). 

Since my first post sounded like a rant, I'm going to put this more clearly. Players who are arguing shots have Little Rights to complain.  They don#t understand the game, nor Football. They must realize this, which the game does a bad job of assisting, or they will be frustrated for all eternity. (Imo they oft have a Point though, but not what they think it is. It is that a) low probability shots of scoring are oft too easy to come by, in parts by defensive issues in the engine -- e.g. those set piece attempts piling up like mad, and that b) the AI tends to be too extremely focused on soaking up shots too ofently, which are connected, naturally). However, I'm not trying to reach or trigger Players. I'm hoping that SI may be listening.

 

Edited by Svenc

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Just now, Svenc said:


Surely it depends on the shot?

not sure if i get what you mean? usually having 20 shots per game will make team to score, like bayern scoring 8 with 18 shots attempts. i know you can post game where team didn't score with 30+ but my question is what is avarage shot count for top teams per game, let alone team like Cardiff?did dortmund have 20+ shots per game with 50% on target in a steak you mentioned? as i said we are forgeting that 20 shots per game (both teams) is a lot, let alone having 25 on avarge. that's one of the problems here. 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Svenc said:


Surely it depends on the shots?

Plus, what does it matter if every time the ball is dropped Things fall apart and the Opponent can walk into your own box?

 

It sure does, and this is where the game is lacking in information. It's soooo hard for some of us to understand what's actually a good chance in this game. I have a serious issue with this, I see us having 10+ shots on goal a game and the opposition GK often reaching 7,8+ rating. To me it looks like the GK often makes super saves and it's annoying, but with a little digging I also get that 90% of my shots are just really poor chances.

It seems really easy to create a tactic that just bombards the opposition with shots and it often looks like domination, I know I fall into that trap a lot :)

Edited by Karnack

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Just now, Karnack said:

 

1 minute ago, Mitja said:

not sure if i get what you mean? usually having 20 shots per game will make team to score, like bayern scoring 8 with 18 shots attempts. i know you can post game where team didn't score with 30+ but my question is what is avarage shot count for top teams per game, let alone team like Cardiff?did dortmund have 20+ shots per game with 50% on target in a steak you mentioned? as i said we are forgeting that 20 shots per game (both teams) is a lot, let alone having 25 on avarge. that's one of the problems here. 

 

Take a look through Crystal Palace's first 8 Matches in the last Season, Real Madrid's first half of the Season 2017/2018, or Burnley's wins in the same season, or Juventus' early 2015 Season (all Whoscored.com). Honestly, do it.

And None of their Mangers sets up their sides to have "moar shots" (or vice versa), as that's Happening by Default against Opposition sitting Deep. It's astonishing how few get that. A huge shot Domination isn't anything brilliant, it's simply the result of different tactical choices.

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17 minutes ago, Svenc said:

yeah that's one of the issues of fm17 but that issue is still present in fm19, maybe even more pronounced than ever. having 25+ shots per game is a lot easier to achieve in fm19 though. 

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4 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Take a look through Crystal Palace's first 8 Matches in the last Season, Real Madrid's first half of the Season 2017/2018, or Burnley's wins in the same season, or Juventus' early 2015 Season (all Whoscored.com). Honestly, do it.

And None of their Mangers sets up their sides to have "moar shots" (or vice versa), as that's Happening by Default against Opposition sitting Deep. It's astonishing how few get that. A huge shot Domination isn't anything brilliant, it's simply the result of different tactical choices.

Not sure if this was for me or? :P

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4 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Take a look through Crystal Palace's first 8 Matches in the last Season, Real Madrid's first half of the Season 2017/2018, or Burnley's wins in the same season, or Juventus' early 2015 Season (all Whoscored.com). Honestly, do it.

did they have 25-30 shots per game on avarage? with 50% on target? 

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Since my first post sounded like a rant, I'm going to put this more clearly. Players who are arguing shots have Little Rights to complain.  They don#t understand the game, nor Football. They must realize this, which the game does a bad job of assisting, or they will be frustrated for all eternity. (Imo they oft have a Point though, but not what they think it is. It is that a) low probability shots of scoring are oft too easy to come by, in parts by defensive issues in the engine -- e.g. those set piece attempts piling up like mad, and that b) the AI tends to be too extremely focused on soaking up shots too ofently, which are connected, naturally). However, I'm not trying to reach or trigger Players. I'm hoping that SI may be listening.

yeah i agree about shot quality but at the same time i'm questioning scenario in which an avarage team like Cardiff dominates games and shots stats even against elite teams, not scorelines. what's the fun and challange in such game?  i doubt you can post similar scenarion where team like Cardiff completely dominates games in such manner. 

FM is the only game where player has no idea about most fundamental and basic stuff like how to setup tactics or how AI plays. how to play FM17 with all different shape settings and no preset styles? why is AI playing totally different than my assistent is telling me. so,  tactical rewamp is step in right direction with presets and hopefully we'll see improvements here. i think the OP's issue is all about that, his tacics probably causes strange ME behaviour in terms of creating shots numbers too much and paired with poor AI,stats look crazy. since your preseason odds are poor you're loosing games you should be loosing just your tactics are ''too good''. 

Edited by Mitja

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Posted (edited)
On ‎25‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 12:20, Mitja said:

yeah that's one of the issues of fm17 but that issue is still present in fm19, maybe even more pronounced than ever. having 25+ shots per game is a lot easier to achieve in fm19 though. 


"Easy to come by" shot numbers arguably have been an issue for many years… on some versions more, on some less. IIRC on FM14ish Players reported as high as 50-60 shots (up to 30 Corners too…) Unlike the mods here it seems, I have a bit experience with some of the "Downloads", due to my curiosity. Outside of those, not once in ten years had I ever had such a match (50/60 crapshots no Goal). The Problem in parts is AI (which Plays too defensively and doesn't actually intelligently actually adapt to opposing tactics, but rather to Team reputations…), in parts defensive Engagement (which doesn't stop all those poor/er shots in the first place, or those set pieces….) However, it's also in parts that you can do stuff that isn't very much "Football". A huge hunk of the download sections is full of, sorry, crap that wouldn't even qualify for UEFA Z- Badges. Which the game naturally allows. Some Posters, like the aforementioned TFF from @enigmatic (Total Football Fan) at least admits that what he's doing is throwing crap at the game vs. designing "realistic" tactics. His reasoning is that you shouldn't bother, as in General doing "crap" was far more efficient. And he's Right, of Course. Still, any comparison with actual Football may end Right here, as real Managers don't do "crap". However, even in real Football a huge shot Domination doesn't equal Domination at all (Germany at the World Cup, which fell apart every time they dropped the ball and didn't create much Quality). Even to the mor casual observer it was apparent how easily even Teams like Sweden had it to march into the box as soon as they were given the ball, and it made Mainstream Headlines by Hummels openly criticizing Löw's tactical Approach. In tendency, if you took a look at the shot Maps during periods, despite having 30 shots in two of those games, every other Opposition shot was within the box from actual open play, as it was made that easy for them.
 

 



The above tactic for instance (two inverted wingbacks too) Looks like it's absolutely cramming the centre of the pitch with Players (also due to wingers behavior as to FM, who narrow in front of the Goal). And yeah, it's traditionally far too easy to keep the ball and "dominate" the run of play that way, as the ball is rarely dropped then. Still, that's like van Gaal (possession over everything) taken to its extreme, as even he thinks in spaces as opposed to how many Possession and shots he can have by whichever means possible. In real Football, I'd argue any even newbie Manager would stop doing that if he'd do it at all as soon as he faces packed defenses keeping it tight/er.  I'd personally Long-term revamp both the engine as well as the tactical UI so that you could only ever enter "sensible" actual Football decisions. And also make Players think and manage spaces more easily, as that's what it's all About. Which would also make testing likely easier. However, it may generally also Level the playing field between AI and Players, which many may not like... no more consistently first Season title Seasons with Cardiff, probably. I'd also revampt the entire Feedback, as real Managers tend to roughly be able to Judge how good a Chance a Chance is. I'd also completely revamp the entire AI tactical process, as a bigger shot Domination Comes natural with some of ist (too extreme) defensive approaches purely focused on making premium spaces harder to come by.

 

 


PS: It is of note here too that despite downloading "crap", lacking in top Players, and having Problems with analyzing (as he admits himself), the OP doesn't stop scoring. At all. He's still scoring. As I pesonally love stats, on Occasion I get a rise out of this place by Posting Football data. Like the aforementioned Crystal Palace not scoring a single time from 100 shots (first 8 Matches last term); or Burnley conceding but 12 Goals from almost 400 shots (first half of the Season last term), and such data isn't as uncommon as many believe. It's just that nobody follows such outside of their game. There's more advanced stats to illustrate this than "shots on target" too, which is "expected goals" and similar. It oft plays a significant role in many perceived seasonal surprises (which tend to correct themselves either the same season or the season after -- basically "good" and "bad" luck doesn't repeat endlessly). Still, whenever I post such, in tendency some SI staff enquires to send the save to enquire for possible Bugs as I mask it as my personal FM experience. :D  Even in raw shot data, the correlation between shots and Goals tends to be more "predictable" in-game, which should count doubly so given the rise in "screamer Goals" from distance on FM19. Hence, FM is more predictable than real Football in General, and it may be done on Purpose. Because whilst Players may enjoy being the surprise package come the end of a Season themselves -- they already react bad enough to a perceived "Domination" (which oft times is not an actual Domination) paired with a point drop within a single match or two or three. I wish bookies would offer bets on FM as opposed to Football myself. :P 


If you take a look back, Things really haven't changed a lot, unfortunately. 

Players downloading garbage and "enjoying" the occasional flipsides to it.
 

 

Players still designing tactics primarily concerned with "dominating" the game's simple stats -- and as a result not being overly efficient.
 

 

 

Edited by Svenc

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yeah i agree with you otherwise top clubs would never loose, all i'm saying is it is far too easy to create too many shots and the game provides you with no feedback of what you're doing ''wrong''. i'm not defending OP or his tactical choice or the way he's playing. i've seen and people posted games with 30, 40, 50 shots game after game. i guess some of them used just normal tactics and presets like gegenpress maybe. for example in fm17 you won't see many 30+ shots games.

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2 hours ago, Mitja said:

yeah i agree with you otherwise top clubs would never loose, all i'm saying is it is far too easy to create too many shots and the game provides you with no feedback of what you're doing ''wrong''. i'm not defending OP or his tactical choice or the way he's playing. i've seen and people posted games with 30, 40, 50 shots game after game. i guess some of them used just normal tactics and presets like gegenpress maybe. for example in fm17 you won't see many 30+ shots games.

Players likely experienced far less 30+ shot games without scoring at least a Goal or two. Going back to the OP, at least not with tactics such as TTF's (which he uses in slightly modified form). Reason of which being that the central of the pitch was so vulnerable, thus CBs dragged out of pos far more easily, and only a few AI approaches happened to defend that some by Chance (sitting Deep with a back three / Five and /or a  couple DMs protecting the backline). Then Things could be rather "curious" there too -- I think it was in one of knap's thousand threads were a guy posted a match with over 50 shots and no Goal (which included a missed Penalty, which is bad luck, but still). :D

Feedback also hasn't changed, agree. My personal bug bear is the final match Reports. If you would Play counter attacking Football on this (against AI that still pushes Players Forward at least.....) , every time you win the final match Reports would argue you were either a) fantastically efficient or b) lucky. They've been based on the "logics" that the Teams with moar shots was the better one since Gary Hammer1000 has been raging About FM. :D 

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32 minutes ago, Svenc said:

They've been based on the "logics" that the Teams with moar shots was the better one since Gary Hammer1000 has been raging About FM. :D 

:D

that stuff is legendery and he certanly has very actual point to make: 

I cant help feeling that the game is trying to say to me, "Look, it does'nt matter how well you play, if you dont do everything according to the way we have devised then you will continue to struggle full stop" Like i've said before, i dont mind trying to play the game as it is now designed, but until the Human user is given a mass of extra info regarding how it all works, then i have to continue to play the game as i do currently, but that should not mean the likes of what i have posted above should be at all acceptable.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Mitja said:

:D

that stuff is legendery and he certanly has very actual point to make: 

I cant help feeling that the game is trying to say to me, "Look, it does'nt matter how well you play, if you dont do everything according to the way we have devised then you will continue to struggle full stop" Like i've said before, i dont mind trying to play the game as it is now designed, but until the Human user is given a mass of extra info regarding how it all works, then i have to continue to play the game as i do currently, but that should not mean the likes of what i have posted above should be at all acceptable.


The Problem as to FM is that SI have Always treated it as a learning sim -- as in: figure it out for yourself (and then translate it into the UI). Aside of translating it all into the game's UI: The actual Things the game rewards as such tactically from my end are usually fairly common sense Team Sports stuff, tho. They have fairly little to do with the tactical battles going on in real Football, certainly not the way the AI's coded -- and the Options the game provides). AFAIR remember, guys like Hammer1000 when really pushed couldn't answer fairly Basic Questions how Teams (in Football) try to attempt to generally increase the chances of scoring, how they decrease the Chance of conceding, how they balance both according to various Scenarios (0-1 behind with ten minujtes to go), how various sides go About stretching packed defenses, how they may see out tight games etc. etc. etc. I can't for the life of me imagine anybody ever "getting" nor "enjoying" the tactical side of the game who cannot provide even the most simplest of answers, as even in-game he would never "get" the simple Things (the AI does too). Like sitting half the Team in Possession behind the ball, keeping Things generally ultra-compact, vs. doing vice versa, and what implications that has (also on most of the resulting "shots" as an end product). Aside of Feedback, I'd be glad it the game were to find ways that you couldn't possibly microtweak the illogical stuff that Players come up with. The premise of this game is that "actual" Managers were competing against "actual" Managers. They don't learn on the Job how backlines in General may be protected, what the advantages and disadvantages of an overlapping run may be; how striker partnerships may work. etc. In other words: They have already learned that or the wouldn't have gotten the job. They know Solutions. They know how to apply them. What they have to gauge is when they may apply which solution at which time.

 

I've seen Matches of Gary's, and his assessment of chances was ridiculous. Here's one of them… no words needed, I hope. He continues to argue that it was exclusively the AI who was on the "lucky" end to this day, btw. In other words, he doesn't even recognize whenever he's lucking out on any of his goals, such as in the Hammers Goal in the match above, which is the Definition of lucking out. (Same as he's downloading the same "super tactics", which is relevant as the OP) to this day. This is purely based on that in every match he tends to have more shots (and thus exclusively Drops Points in Matches in which he had more of them by Definition), he has never tried to Play counter attacking Football against AI still on the attack (which he won't see much of the way the AI is currently coded on this game). If you were to Show him such "stats", he would never conclude he may have defended "fairly well", such as this guy (this was FM17, btw). He's never even tried, and likely won't either way, as the illogical "super tactics" exploiting AI and ME to the hilt keep the game being anything like Football from the off (generally no much Frustration, no close Matches, forwards convert at rates unheard of in Football and unrechable by the AI as they pop up in badly defended space over and over, Player Quality means ****)… That is, until they happen to hit upon an AI that defends them some, and then the **** hits the fan (see above). Until any super tactictian finds a way to field 30 outfield Players that could occupy all sqaure Inch of the pitches, this will Always happen. Guys like him are a lost cause, despite his reoccuring Argument he doesn't actually WANT to Play a "super tactic", in other words, he would gladly take a more "realistic" experience as opposed to a click-win one (which is a viable choice to Play the game). Others…. Maybe not. 

Statistically, the only way to go was SI Dumping their current stats, and trying to ape xG models or similar. Like this. DWbkodEXcAI8GBv.jpg

However, they'd still likely be misunderstood, as naturally just because a side had the better chances, that doesn't mean they would win every time. In Football, Matches against an actual run of Play are legion, and as this article has it
 

Quote

In soccer, the rate at which shots are scored is massively variable. A club might win 1-0 on a perfect long-distance strike one week and then lose 2-1 the next while firing a dozen shots from good positions right into the keeper's chest.

 

In FM from my experience, this applies significantly less so (or Player Frustration would go through the Roof and SI would sell significant less games.  :D

Edited by Svenc

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It's really hard to break down opponents unless you have a vastly superior team with tremendous vision, flair, passing, off the ball, etc. Even then, it can often come down to a moment of brilliance from a long shot that saves a match for you. This mirrors real life, but it isn't particularly reassuring if you have to take 2+ points from every match.

My suggestion is to find players who can create genuine chances from patient build up (these players are typically really expensive) and scout midfielders who can bang in long shots. The other option is to build a team around physicality and play a more direct, high tempo game like Leiecester used to win a title. Actually, I end up using this second option a lot now that I find it harder than it used to be to win with a patient high possession approach. It almost seems like the higher possession I have, the more likely my match will end 0-0.

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