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I’m a broken man. My long rant about it.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, noikeee said:

There's still plug-and-play tactics but those seem to rely on heaps of tiny little advantages one on top of another rather than clear exploits, and only the very best plug-and-play tactics will give you undefeated seasons with a bit of luck. Wasn't quite this way in past FMs, when sometimes you just needed some pretty simple strategies to start performing above average.

 

There are bucketloads that still sport shot to Goal conversion Advantages over opponents unheard of in any competitive Football -- with crap Players to boot. 

Edited by Svenc

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8 hours ago, noikeee said:

There's still plug-and-play tactics but those seem to rely on heaps of tiny little advantages one on top of another rather than clear exploits, and only the very best plug-and-play tactics will give you undefeated seasons with a bit of luck. Wasn't quite this way in past FMs, when sometimes you just needed some pretty simple strategies to start performing above average.

In a way this is good, obviously SI wants a balanced game, not exploits all over - specially because when a huge exploit is on, it ruins the games of the people who want to play with the opposite strategy to the exploit. However keep in mind this is a game and games are meant to be fun

Well, there are more than enough video-games - including football simulations - that are exactly that - just fun, and nothing more. But there are people who really want to gain real knowledge about RL football and then apply it to the game. That's what FM is about, and I am extremely thankful to SI for making it possible for me and others like me to be able to play a game we can really enjoy precisely because it's not so simple and not just for fun, while at the same time offering enough fun.

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I hope people are not still looking for some leprechaun in the game called Team Fluidity and associating unnecessary importance to it. 

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37 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I hope people are not still looking for some leprechaun in the game called Team Fluidity and associating unnecessary importance to it. 

They are all adamant that is still exists under the hood :idiot:.

The reality is FM19 is simple and not too hard at all. Just get your roles and duties right, a suitable LOE and D-Line for what your team can handle. And use mentality as a throttle depending on opposition or situation in the game. That's really all you have to do in order to to do very well. Team shape is not relevant and SI are actually just confusing people by having it showing in the tactical creator. 

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, noikeee said:

 

d) this leads to a tactical game where to be truly successful above average 

 

Depends on one's bnenchmark, probably. As the AI is (and Always will be as per SI choice and target audience) totally incapable of going anywhere "indepth" -- it mostly still manages based on team's reputations and current scorelines as opposed to what is actually going on on the pitch (e.g. what These Forums Show you to do) -- I somehow doubt that. However, it's Always been a Theory of mine that despite the oft criticism the game were "too much About tactics" -- there's a significant amount of FM's Player base who enjoys loling the AI left, Right and centre, tactically, rather than it shifting the odds a few (which is a more realistic representation of what's going on in football). In other words, Players crave for something that stops the game being like Football too much.

F'r instance, whilst the current "exploits" may not be an instantly invincible "Diablo" tactic -- the shot to Goal conversion Advantage regardless of Player Quality is still a huge Edge. Sure, in parts that is also brought About by set piece exploits and added Goals. Still, it's just that nobody sees it, even though These Forums are full of tactics that when compared against AI, the users score like ~30% more Goals as a comparable AI Team whilst sporting a hugely superior Goald Difference to boot (and have no Problem getting Ronaldo to score loads). 

I've actually seen the same Argument brought up by one of the download Provider "Gurus" even on previous FM's. Like, he showed that even his "best" tactics wouldn't win everything purely based on seasonal Points tallies, and thus concluded that even his best tactics wouldn't provide a significant Edge. This ain't true. With his tactics, longer term his edge would grow every Season due to dropping far fewer points, as his teams appraoched consistently converting every fourth shot in the Season (in between 20-25% Overall); whilst the AI averages were 10% (1 in 10). As a comparison: When Man City last term dominated the Prem, they converted roughly 16% of their attempts (1 in 6). SO not only did he have a consistently HUGE Edge over AI (regardless of Player Quality); he also had consistently Fantasy numbers when compared to the real Thing. As an aside: Comparison your longer term shots to Goals conversion in the Team Reports to the AI has been a decent gauge in General -- the AI on most Releases typically ranges between 5% (1 in 20 shots a Goal, yes it's that bad) and 15%+ (1 in 6) for the 10% averages, with the extreme Ends naturally going to fluctuate by random Chance a bit every Season.

 

e) is a good Point. To various extents, this also happened on previous versions. The extreme AI tactics are also too extreme; outside of FM you rarely see Teams sticking half their Team rigidly behind the ball for 90 minutes, certainly not in competitive league games. Apart of AI, it's also that low block defending has become a tad more robust than compared to previous for various reasons too...

Edited by Svenc

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10 minutes ago, noikeee said:

Well I agree! It's fun to imagine how tactics would play out in real life and test it in game, learning about football in the process. The simulation aspect is a huge part of the appeal of FM.

I think in recent FMs something got lost somehow in the constant chase to make it more and more realistic, that makes it less fun though. I think it's not even the sheer huge amount of options we have (some of which are confusing), it's mostly how the options we choose play out in game. The tactical part of the game seems

a) extremely sensitive, 1 bad choice of 1 role which might look sensible on paper will make your system crumble,

b) it's very hard to tell if your system is working or not, the statistics/analysis tab has tons of info but is essentially unreadable mumbojumbo,

c) the game can be very rock-paper-scissory and your tactic might be great in some circumstances and not in others. This can be a good thing, however it's extremely tricky to tell when is your tactic suitable and when it isn't, given how difficult it is to read the statistics analysis;

d) this leads to a tactical game where to be truly successful above average you need to do in depth game-by-game analysis and subtle changes, but this runs at odds with the enjoyable fun of having the seasons breeze through and building a long-term career. Unless your full-time job is to play FM there's not enough real life time to do both. Switching to FM Touch doesn't help, it's the same tactical engine. Using plug-and-play tactics kinda helps but even them seem low scoring on FM19, and they kill the mini-game fun of doing at least some basical match-by-match tactical adaptations on your own.

e) the AI reverts far too easily to an extremely defensive form in this version of the game. This leads to certain real-life concepts not working in game, because in so many matches there's less space on the pitch than there would be in real life. In theory what the FM human player should do in these circumstances, is to use more cautious mentalities to draw them away etc, but this seems to have stopped working all that effectively in FM19, plus this isn't even all that common a tactic in real life anyway. When's the last time you heard from real life pundits, that to beat a parked bus, you should stay back too and give them time on the ball?

f) I actually think we have too FEW options. Roles are so restrictive and lock-in so much stuff that the end result is all of this is so super convoluted. I've lost count of the amount of times I had a situation in which for what I wanted, I either had to use role A with a certain TI; or role B with another TI; and neither played out like I wanted. There's certain basic things you still can't do in FM, like keeping a winger very out wide but NOT behave like a classic winger that runs and crosses, just keep him there as a passing option to give your team width; or telling a winger to NOT track back on the defensive phase, gambling through having less defensive cover to then keep him as an easy out ball for a counter through the wings. Or have a striker/winger hybrid, keep him constantly roaming wide from the ST position trying to occupy both CB and FB. I've tried all of this and failed to simulate it all in FM.

g) buggy/badly simulated things like so many easy side passes to the wing being constantly missed by world class passers. Fast mid-height crosses being apparently easier to finish acrobatically with your feet, than well controlled one-on-one situations (?!).

I could go on and on, but clearly am just disillusioned and burnt out with the game right now.

It sounds like you just want to make a tactic, play on key highlights and win everything in the process. I personally love the challenge of  constantly adapting tactically. And you don't need statistical analysis, all I do I is pay attention to the opposition team report before every match and get an idea of how they are going to play. If I'm really unsure on how the game is going to pan out I watch on comprehensive for the first say 20mins of the match and make any adjustment that look necessary. Then switch to extended and just keep observing. It's really as simple as watching the game and adapting to what is happening. This doesn't even take a huge amount of time, as I'm constantly switching between key, extended and comprehensive depending on how confident I am.

Regarding teams getting defensive, I agree this happens a bit too early in FM but what works in FM19 is just to go uber aggressive. Play on a higher mentality and create roles and duties that flood the box and put pressure on the opposition down the flanks aswell. Throwing a wingback on attack forward and having a CM or mezzala on attack making aggressive runs into the box can put a lot of pressure on the opposition

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I can't play the game on comprehensive anymore, it will just drive me insane. It will make me trigger happy to change to everything. I much rather play it on key at max speed. I spend more time in game dealing with the medical centre now then I do with adapting to changes. There is literally NOTHING to adapt to apart from maybe going wider or making one small change and its usually a reaction to someone playing poorly. All you need to do as some have rightly pointed out is look at the game and read the opp report before kickoff

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3 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I can't play the game on comprehensive anymore, it will just drive me insane. It will make me trigger happy to change to everything. I much rather play it on key at max speed. I spend more time in game dealing with the medical centre now then I do with adapting to changes. There is literally NOTHING to adapt to apart from maybe going wider or making one small change and its usually a reaction to someone playing poorly. All you need to do as some have rightly pointed out is look at the game and read the opp report before kickoff

You know what you're doing better than most and can easily create a system that you already know will work before even testing it out though. 

@noikeee seems to be having an issue with figuring out if a system works or not in the first place. In that case, you're going to have to watch on atleast extended and keep an eye out for certain things that you expect to be happening with your system. 

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44 minutes ago, noikeee said:

the game can be very rock-paper-scissory and your tactic might be great in some circumstances and not in others. This can be a good thing, however it's extremely tricky to tell when is your tactic suitable and when it isn't, given how difficult it is to read the statistics analysis;

 

That's football, my friend. That's real life. 

Almost every team in the Premier League right now is suffering from this, the majority are either set up to be the team in possession and to play against an opponent who is sitting deep or is set up to soak up pressure and play against teams who come on to them. 

They rely on their opponent essentially being predictable and its funny how often every team in the league falls in to the trap. 

I'm a Leicester season ticket holder and everyone in the country knows how we play. We've beaten Arsenal and Man City at home in recent months and lost to Burnley and Newcastle. It's because we're set up to specialise against the former and not the latter.

But Burnley lost to Man City yesterday because they don't press, they don't put a side under pressure and City had the tools to wear them down and score. 

Burnley are the rock they're solid and difficult to break down, Man City are the paper they're a blanket of possession that smother a stubborn team to death but Leicester are the scissors, we're sharp and fast and cut through the paper but against the rock we quickly go blunt. 

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Posted (edited)

I can do a mildly workable system, just not the way I wanted it to play out, or in a realistic time frame for a long term career without having to get into lots of very in-depth match-by-match things, or with satisfactory football, or without having to just poach things from other's tactics.

Struggled badly to get a decent possession-ish system working in FM19 that scores lots of varied goals from open play. That's what I set out to do in every version of FM and gave up as an unachievable goal this time.

Admitedly this is a bit like searching for a unicorn and not something I can really blame SI for, as this is such an incredibly complex game that to please everyone nevermind in such specific ways is impossible, but yeah just completely lost the fun of playing on this version.

Sorry for sort-of hijacking this thread but seemed relevant/similar to my experience in some things.

Edited by noikeee

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Since SI has decided to give more focus at Player Roles, Player Instructions and Team Instructions and downplayed tactics (that's why 442 & 4141 is being popular); I don't understand the decision to hardcode player instructions in many player roles. That's the problem with FM19, SI need to investigate much more in player roles and player instructions and remove some hardcopied player instructions. 

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i'd say biggest issues in fm19 are in AI tactics/ME/tactical UI. game like FM needs instructions to be hardcoded because AI will never be on the same playing level as human. at the same time and this is something that FM fails, is the ability of human to understand an be able to make tactical decisions with same logics as AI.  

tactical side of things and Tactics Creator have become too complex, there are more football styles in FM than in real life. and many of these styles don't replicate basic football concepts, attacking football looks more like counter attacking and defensive is too possessional. spectrum of different football styles offered by mentality setting is too big. 

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40 minutes ago, noikeee said:

I can do a mildly workable system, just not the way I wanted it to play out, or in a realistic time frame for a long term career without having to get into lots of very in-depth match-by-match things, or with satisfactory football, or without having to just poach things from other's tactics.

Struggled badly to get a decent possession-ish system working in FM19 that scores lots of varied goals from open play. That's what I set out to do in every version of FM and gave up as an unachievable goal this time.

Admitedly this is a bit like searching for a unicorn and not something I can really blame SI for, as this is such an incredibly complex game that to please everyone nevermind in such specific ways is impossible, but yeah just completely lost the fun of playing on this version.

Sorry for sort-of hijacking this thread but seemed relevant/similar to my experience in some things.

Agreed with pretty much everything you said. The game has lost a lot of its fun for me too. The main reason I still persist is because I love to experiment with tactics and to write about it. But it's starting to get where my writing is becoming more theoretical than analytical where I cannot properly test out the tactic. Or just get horrible results with it eventhough on paper I think that it should work well. And "varied goals from open play" seem an elusive beast this year. Most of the ones I score are either from free kicks, corners or long shots. I can't even get playmakers to do what they should do best, assist through the middle.

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2 minutes ago, Mitja said:

tactical side of things and Tactics Creator have become too complex, there are more football styles in FM than in real life. and many of these styles don't replicate basic football concepts, attacking football looks more like counter attacking and defensive is too possessional. spectrum of different football styles offered by mentality setting is too big. 

 

As someone that enjoys having myriad tactical options in the game, views like this frustrate me a little because they're all completely optional. 

You can play a very straightforward 442 with minimal tweaks from the templates the game gives you and still be a successful manager by building a good squad, managing your personnel and finances effectively, etc. 

You don't need to be Cleon or Rashidi to win back to back Champions Leagues with Burton Albion, you just need patience. 

FM is like real life, not every manager is a tactical genius. Claudio Ranieri (sorry to keep bringing up Leicester!) isn't a tactical master mind and neither was Nigel Pearson but together they won an unlikely league title with other qualities, by fostering and maintaining a great team spirit, by keeping things simple, by playing to their strengths, by building an affordable and dynamic money ball squad. 

The same is possible in FM. 

You can enjoy this game with cookie cutter tactics and still let those of us who think we're Bielsa get our hands dirty tinkering with our attempts at being revolutionary thinkers. 

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6 minutes ago, Mitja said:

defensive is too possessional

This is yet another of the counter-intuitive problems, this has been on the game for lots of years now, and it still comes from the "tactics & frameworks" thing or whatever that was called, that helped them create the TC. Back then the theory was that on attacking mentalities defensive players would pass longer and offensive players shorter; and on defensive mentalities the defensive players would pass shorter and offensive players longer.

This never made much sense to me, and the result is that in the game the teams that play "defensive" are more willing to calmly and patiently ping the ball around in defence, often even whilst under pressure(!) - completely at odds with what people perceive as "defensive" football in real life. There's now all sorts of other modifiers that affect this such as "play out of defence", keeper distribution etc that stack an extra level of complexity on top and make this thing less noticeable, but it's still there below and still doesn't make sense.

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7 minutes ago, noikeee said:

This is yet another of the counter-intuitive problems, this has been on the game for lots of years now, and it still comes from the "tactics & frameworks" thing or whatever that was called, that helped them create the TC. Back then the theory was that on attacking mentalities defensive players would pass longer and offensive players shorter; and on defensive mentalities the defensive players would pass shorter and offensive players longer.

It isn't like that. In attacking systems, defenders pass shorter as the idea was to keep possession, rather than giving it away immediately. The attacking players would be more direct, so that they can be more aggressive with their passes, since they'll be more aggressive with runs etc due to the Mentality too.

On the more defensive Mentalities, defenders were encouraged to be more direct, so that they could get the ball out of the dangerous and congested zone (their third of the pitch), while attacking players had shorter passing set so that they can keep possession there. From there, either just keep possession, counter or allow the rest of the players to work forward.

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3 minutes ago, Finners said:

 

As someone that enjoys having myriad tactical options in the game, views like this frustrate me a little because they're all completely optional. 

You can play a very straightforward 442 with minimal tweaks from the templates the game gives you and still be a successful manager by building a good squad, managing your personnel and finances effectively, etc. 

You don't need to be Cleon or Rashidi to win back to back Champions Leagues with Burton Albion, you just need patience. 

FM is like real life, not every manager is a tactical genius. Claudio Ranieri (sorry to keep bringing up Leicester!) isn't a tactical master mind and neither was Nigel Pearson but together they won an unlikely league title with other qualities, by fostering and maintaining a great team spirit, by keeping things simple, by playing to their strengths, by building an affordable and dynamic money ball squad. 

The same is possible in FM. 

You can enjoy this game with cookie cutter tactics and still let those of us who think we're Bielsa get our hands dirty tinkering with our attempts at being revolutionary thinkers. 

i'm not against having options but they need to be logical and transparent. you said that -  the majority are either set up to be the team in possession and to play against an opponent who is sitting deep or is set up to soak up pressure and play against teams who come on to them.

and i totally agree with that. but can you show my one team that plays ultra possessional - ''defensive'' football in real life? such style doesn't even exist. whole defensive mentality spectrum of FM tactics is questionable in FM. noikee's post explains that. all i see in premier league or any other major league is football full of pace and quick transitions. 

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4 minutes ago, Mitja said:

i'm not against having options but they need to be logical and transparent. you said that -  the majority are either set up to be the team in possession and to play against an opponent who is sitting deep or is set up to soak up pressure and play against teams who come on to them.

and i totally agree with that. but can you show my one team that plays ultra possessional - ''defensive'' football in real life? such style doesn't even exist. whole defensive mentality spectrum of FM tactics is questionable in FM. noikee's post explains that. all i see in premier league or any other major league is football full of pace and quick transitions. 

You can still do that on the lower mentalities with the right roles and duties + higher tempo + pass into space. 

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4 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

It isn't like that. In attacking systems, defenders pass shorter as the idea was to keep possession, rather than giving it away immediately. The attacking players would be more direct, so that they can be more aggressive with their passes, since they'll be more aggressive with runs etc due to the Mentality too.

On the more defensive Mentalities, defenders were encouraged to be more direct, so that they could get the ball out of the dangerous and congested zone (their third of the pitch), while attacking players had shorter passing set so that they can keep possession there. From there, either just keep possession, counter or allow the rest of the players to work forward.

the idea behind is ok but the point is that ME doesn't produce expected kind of football. contrary to basic football logics defensive tactics produce too possessional style and i'm not saying you can't achieve possession on more attacking. but can you give one example of real life team that plays defensive - possessional football? 

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2 hours ago, noikeee said:

In theory what the FM human player should do in these circumstances, is to use more cautious mentalities to draw them away etc, but this seems to have stopped working all that effectively in FM19, plus this isn't even all that common a tactic in real life anyway. When's the last time you heard from real life pundits, that to beat a parked bus, you should stay back too and give them time on the ball?

Have you watched Rashidi's video (from the Kop diaries series) on breaking down a parked bus? It has nothing to do with staying back and giving the ball to opposition. Quite the opposite - it's very attacking and successful at that. You can play both attacking and defensive football in many different ways, just as in real life.

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1 minute ago, Mitja said:

the idea behind is ok but the point is that ME doesn't produce expected kind of football. contrary to basic football logics defensive tactics produce too possessional style and i'm not saying you can't achieve possession on more attacking. but can you give one example of real life team that plays defensive - possessional football? 

Favourites that are ahead and looking to wind down the clock do this all the time. They look to just keep the ball and not take risks. 

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2 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

You can still do that on the lower mentalities with the right roles and duties + higher tempo + pass into space. 

yeah. all i'm saying there are more styles in fm than irl. defensive football like in FM doesn't exist irl. it's the opposite, attacking teams are usually playing possessinonal football. i'm talking about AI, human can achieve desired style anyway.

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3 minutes ago, Mitja said:

yeah. all i'm saying there are more styles in fm than irl. defensive football like in FM doesn't exist irl. it's the opposite, attacking teams are usually playing possessinonal football. i'm talking about AI, human can achieve desired style anyway.

It does though...teams who are playing low risk are playing on a low mentality and teams who play with higher risk play on higher mentalities...as simple as that. 

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2 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

Favourites that are ahead and looking to wind down the clock do this all the time. They look to just keep the ball and not take risks. 

no they are just slowing things down, they are not changing their basic style of play. you can achieve it with lower teampo and shorter passing, less pressing etc. 

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1 minute ago, NabsKebabs said:

It does though...teams who are playing low risk are playing on a low mentality and teams who play with higher risk play on higher mentalities...as simple as that. 

there's no such thing as mentality irl, there's instructions and patterns which are practised to death on training ground. yo, Messi switch to counter attacking mentality. sure. 

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3 minutes ago, Mitja said:

there's no such thing as mentality irl, there's instructions and patterns which are practised to death on training ground. yo, Messi switch to counter attacking mentality. sure. 

"Yo, Messi/Team, take fewer risks in general. We're ahead, so no need to force anything as much anymore."

Mitja, you need to separate what is ME, what is Mentality and what teams do/how they set up. Then it'll become easier to understand.

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1 minute ago, NabsKebabs said:

It does though...teams who are playing low risk are playing on a low mentality and teams who play with higher risk play on higher mentalities...as simple as that. 

there's no such thing as mentality irl, there's instructions and patterns which are practised to death on training ground. yo, Messi switch to counter attacking mentality. sure. 

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7 minutes ago, Mitja said:

there's no such thing as mentality irl, there's instructions and patterns which are practised to death on training ground. yo, Messi switch to counter attacking mentality. sure. 

Mentality is applied to the whole team, not to Messi.

"Right lads, we're going to take the game to them and attack them" (attacking mentality) 

or

"Lads, let's not take too many risks out there or they could punish us, let's be a bit reserved in our approach" (cautious mentality)

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5 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Mitja, you need to separate what is ME, what is Mentality and what teams do/how they set up. Then it'll become easier to understand.

are you saying tactical input isn't displayed in ME? :D

we all know what defensive football means. and it isn't what it looks in FM.

d49675626ddb411ceea71122f65d8532.png

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1 minute ago, Mitja said:

are you saying tactical input isn't displayed in ME? :D

we all know what defensive football means. and it isn't what it looks in FM.

I'm saying - separate the different areas. That makes it easier to understand what's going on and also where the possible issues are, if there are.

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2 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

Mentality is applied to the whole team, not to Messi.

"Right lads, we're going to take the game to them and attack them" (attacking mentality) 

or

"Lads, let's not take too many risks out there or they could punish us, let's be a bit reserved in our approach" (cautious mentality)

that's not mentality, that's sum of different instructions and things that get practised and discussed on training ground. 

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4 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I'm saying - separate the different areas. That makes it easier to understand what's going on and also where the possible issues are, if there are.

how to seperate tactical input with ME? i'm not sure what you're trying to say.

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1 hour ago, Mitja said:

the idea behind is ok but the point is that ME doesn't produce expected kind of football. 

This is just wrong. It's not the ME at all.

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

i'm talking about AI, human can achieve desired style anyway.

If it was the ME, it wouldn't be possible to do. Even you agree it is possible for users, so it isn't the ME - it is how teams set up then. 

46 minutes ago, Mitja said:

we all know what defensive football means. and it isn't what it looks in FM.

d49675626ddb411ceea71122f65d8532.png

Looks defensive to me. Whether it was effective or not, I can't really tell you (you show no scoreline), but looking at the Man City player ratings would suggest it failed on the day.

You seem to be looking at stats, rather than what's actually happening on the pitch, so you're drawing the wrong conclusions. Defensive teams don't do that against me. They don't do that against @Rashidi. Why? Because we don't let them. That again shows that it's very possible to do, just that the AI isn't great at doing it in your example and probably in general. That makes it a tactical issue.

There could be deeper issues, some tactical in the sense that defensive setups are not better set up to counter attack or it could be that they are, but the ME isn't triggering decent moves as counters enough. For possible issues like this, you'd need to look at it closer and much deeper than just stats, but how build up play is handled, both in the setup of it and if there are moves that could be triggered as counter attacks, but aren't. Maybe attacking teams aren't attacking enough or using enough of a pressing style or a high enough LoE. For one off matches though, it's not a huge deal, but if patterns start emerging, that's when there are most likely issues.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

You seem to be looking at stats, rather than what's actually happening on the pitch, so you're drawing the wrong conclusions. Defensive teams don't do that against me. They don't do that against @Rashidi. Why? Because we don't let them. That again shows that it's very possible to do, just that the AI isn't great at doing it in your example and probably in general. That makes it a tactical issue.

i think on paper or in - game description there's nothing wrong with such tactics, they're saying the right thing. men behind ball and quick counters but lower mentality in general displays possessional nature and attacking to impatient. it's been like that for years. if you can't fix it then remove it since there is no possessional defensive football irl anyway.  

too defensive AI issue in fm19 and pic i posted is perfect example of what i'm trying to say and what's wrong. of course it's tactical, and of course some of us understand how to play and what's important but 99% of fm players will have no idea about it all. 

as for looking at stats and that game, yes it's AI vs AI and City won. i watched that game and what i can tell is exactly the same as stats confirm and what i'm trying to say here. it's the opposite in AI world. City setup in attacking variant and urgency and directness with which they played is.....laughable really. coupled with defensive ME issues they were all over the place chasing the ball like headless chickens but were unbelievably effective at creating shots. on the other hand Newcastle couldn't fire a single shot despite totally outpassing them. no tiki-taka just cross after cross, tiki taka was Newcastle domain. so what's going on is the opposite to what it should be, Newcastle playing possessional style and City playing counters.  

Edited by Mitja

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3 hours ago, Mitja said:

i'd say biggest issues in fm19 are in AI tactics/ME/tactical UI. game like FM needs instructions to be hardcoded because AI will never be on the same playing level as human. at the same time and this is something that FM fails, is the ability of human to understand an be able to make tactical decisions with same logics as AI.  

tactical side of things and Tactics Creator have become too complex, there are more football styles in FM than in real life. and many of these styles don't replicate basic football concepts, attacking football looks more like counter attacking and defensive is too possessional. spectrum of different football styles offered by mentality setting is too big. 

I don't like players having already PI in roles; since the game it's going to dictate they I need to play my team. Since the style of Football Manager goes to Player Roles / Player Instructions & Team Instructions, game will be dictate they way I want to winning or lossing. Especially since player roles has already PI. That's what I am trying to tell.

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9 hours ago, noikeee said:

e) the AI reverts far too easily to an extremely defensive form in this version of the game. This leads to certain real-life concepts not working in game, because in so many matches there's less space on the pitch than there would be in real life. In theory what the FM human player should do in these circumstances, is to use more cautious mentalities to draw them away etc, but this seems to have stopped working all that effectively in FM19, plus this isn't even all that common a tactic in real life anyway. When's the last time you heard from real life pundits, that to beat a parked bus, you should stay back too and give them time on the ball?

This. I agree 100%. In all my seasons with FM19, against weak and very weak teams I 've had issues to break them down. Even trying to draw them way rarely, if ever, worked.

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Posted (edited)

Wake up guys, FM is not even close of replicating modern Football, especially the more complex one. Its a game thats it, nothing more and nothing less. How can a game be "relistic" where it is so easy to overachieve with some random team and win EPL or Bundesliga within 3 Seasons or even better? How can a game be "realistic" where the ME is so outdated, that certain animations and behaviour has to be scripted? How can a game be "realistic" where relegation sides are able to play a defensive possession style? How can a game be "realistic" where ME is not even able to create complex passing patterns with little space given?

and so on...

Dont get me wrong, FM is a great GAME, but thats it expect that and you get what you expect.

 

Edited by CARRERA

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4 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

How can a game be "realistic" where relegation sides are able to play a defensive style?

And what style relegation sides should be able to play instead? Attacking? :stop:

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8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

And what style relegation sides should be able to play instead? Attacking? :stop:

sorry, i meant a defensive possession style. Usually relegeations sides try to either park the bus and clear their lines or play a direct counter attacking football with a low defensive block.

Never seen a relegeation side trying to hold the ball apart of it being successful for not.

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9 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

sorry, i meant a defensive possession style. Usually relegeations sides try to either park the bus and clear their lines or play a direct counter attacking football with a low defensive block.

Never seen a relegeation side trying to hold the ball apart of it being successful for not.

Okay :thup:

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1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

Never seen a relegeation side trying to hold the ball

I seem to have taken the role of pot stirrer ;).  Briefly maintaining that role -

Agree or understand a number of people's frustrations, leprechauns :D and whatever other little gems have come up in this thread.  Quick one though for @CARRERA.  This is the number of passes made by Premier League teams this season.  Predictably the top six are the top six.  Still I doubt you were expecting to see Fulham playing some sort relegation passing game.

stats.thumb.png.1912bfb5409e080d5b2507f9990c8cc0.png

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21 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

I seem to have taken the role of pot stirrer ;).  Briefly maintaining that role -

Agree or understand a number of people's frustrations, leprechauns :D and whatever other little gems have come up in this thread.  Quick one though for @CARRERA.  This is the number of passes made by Premier League teams this season.  Predictably the top six are the top six.  Still I doubt you were expecting to see Fulham playing some sort relegation passing game.

stats.thumb.png.1912bfb5409e080d5b2507f9990c8cc0.png

its not about the season average, but you can see especially against better sides, that lower teams will try to be "defensive" and move the ball slowly around their defense hopefully up the pitch to create a chance. It aint a real problem because you can obviously press them or whatever, but it still is very unrealistic and annoying to see a relegation side trying to execute a slow passing game...

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2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

It aint a real problem because you can obviously press them or whatever, but it still is very unrealistic and annoying to see a relegation side trying to execute a slow passing game...

If you don't press them, what are they going to do with the ball?  Defenders won't lump it up field if they aren't under pressure or just because we want them to, they'll defend with the ball.  They'll play a cautious, low risk game - low risk here being kick it around in their own half because nobody is making them do anything else.  They're not trying to play a possession game - we're letting them do it.  Big difference.

So if human controlled teams are seeing opposition do this, get your team up in their grills and put them under pressure.  Win the ball back in the opposition's final third, not your own half.  And if AI Man City (or whoever) are seeing similar issues, perhaps AI Pep needs a tweak too.

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4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

If you don't press them, what are they going to do with the ball?  Defenders won't lump it up field if they aren't under pressure or just because we want them to, they'll defend with the ball.  They'll play a cautious, low risk game - low risk here being kick it around in their own half because nobody is making them do anything else.  They're not trying to play a possession game - we're letting them do it.  Big difference.

So if human controlled teams are seeing opposition do this, get your team up in their grills and put them under pressure.  Win the ball back in the opposition's final third, not your own half.  And if AI Man City (or whoever) are seeing similar issues, perhaps AI Pep needs a tweak too.

And that's the problem here, herne79 with high pressing. You are weak with the perfect counter attacks from every AI manager and team.

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39 minutes ago, herne79 said:

If you don't press them, what are they going to do with the ball?  Defenders won't lump it up field if they aren't under pressure or just because we want them to, they'll defend with the ball.  They'll play a cautious, low risk game - low risk here being kick it around in their own half because nobody is making them do anything else.  They're not trying to play a possession game - we're letting them do it.  Big difference.

Once again, its not about if we are letting them or not. The question is why would they even try? As relegation sides are often very limited techically it would be almost a instant loss trying to keep the ball against a top side like city or whatever. And this is exactly why you try to move the ball up the pitch quickly (counter) because it increases your chance of winning or at least keeping the other team away from your goal.

Besides that the ME is very week on pressing / marking and very strong on passing in general and compared to each other, wich all in all leads to a very ugly match experience from time to time. Just look through your games againts underdogs and realise where you got outpassed by the opponent, but you know that...

AI managers are set up so poorly just leads to many problems which make people rant about the game which isnt bad at all. 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Cadoni said:

And that's the problem here, herne79 with high pressing. You are weak with the perfect counter attacks from every AI manager and team.

Perfect counter attacks :lol:

The AI seems to just randomly throws roles and duties together. If you are getting countered it's a weakness from the human manager not doing their homework by looking at the opposition team report to see who and where they might be attacking space and if it may be an issue for your system. 

Edited by NabsKebabs

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6 hours ago, CARRERA said:

its not about the season average, but you can see especially against better sides, that lower teams will try to be "defensive" and move the ball slowly around their defense hopefully up the pitch to create a chance. It aint a real problem because you can obviously press them or whatever, but it still is very unrealistic and annoying to see a relegation side trying to execute a slow passing game...

I understand where you are coming from...that weak sides should not be able to execute a slow passing game, and that if they do they should be shut down. And that happens in all my games. Any weak team that tries to play that kind of football invariably ends up with 0 chances because they never see the ball. In fact last season Spurs ended up with 0 chances in 90 minutes of play and they were playing an ultra defensive system. When weaker sides try to do this they never get a chance to pass the ball. Here the question is strategy for the human player. I tend to think the AI manager doesn't know how to execute that kind of strategy because its playbook is too simple. 

I will say one thing though, in reality most successful weak sides in the premiership do try to have a higher possession game in their own half. And they usually do better in terms of short tasing accuracy compared to those relegated. Leicester under Rodgers will be interesting to watch cos they are changing their style successfully with a short passing game as well.  Some of these side do in real life pass slowly in their own half, before shifting up a gear when the right players have it. The same thing happens in the game. The only thing i wish for is a more varied AI manager who knows how to use tactical presets with a bit more panache.

 

 Passes.thumb.jpg.99697d7a884b19948d2356139f07bb4a.jpg

 1679052295_ActionZones.thumb.jpg.86c68245583270ce7c1ea9e48479ca59.jpg

994110898_Shortpasses.thumb.jpg.59bcd64646aa19ff483668a425d9619e.jpg

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6 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Just look through your games againts underdogs and realise where you got outpassed by the opponent, but you know that...

Nope.  My games against underdogs see me enjoy even more possession than usual.  Why?  Because if they want to try to camp in their own half I'll press the living daylights out of them.

I agree there is an issue with how AI managers set themselves up and they fail to press effectively, which is why we see people posting pictures of Man City (or whoever) having less possession than some underdog.  But I'll repeat - what do you expect the underdog to do with the ball if a counter attack isn't on and they aren't under any pressure deep in their own half?  So when you say

6 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Once again, its not about if we are letting them or not. The question is why would they even try? As relegation sides are often very limited techically it would be almost a instant loss trying to keep the ball against a top side like city or whatever.

It's exactly about letting them do it.

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Take out first few teams and last few from those stats and you get pretty even pattern showing some 400 to 450 passes per game for most teams. And thsts onlz statistical point of view, no PL team plays defensive football like in fm. Surely not for 90 min. Teams usually show some desire to score.

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