Building a successful tactic focusing play through a playmaker.

[craigd84]

Hi all,

On last years game I played as Roma with a rule that everyone of my three tactics had to make use of a trequartista. I built 3 systems with good results but my favourite was the one I based the attack off the Roma side in 2001.

CF(S) P

TREQ.

Totti's role for me had 20 plus assists a season and Montella (P) 40odd goals a season.

Now, on this years game I am struggling to make my playmakers in the AM strata have the most impact on creating chances, and the link up play with my AF/P or sometimes a DLF (A) doesn't seem as lethal as the setup I had last year.

 

So, my setup this season from my memory as I am at work at this time, is this...

GK

FB (S) CB (D) CB (D) WB (A)

        CM (D)          CM (S)

W (A)/RMD  EG (S)      W(S)

                      P (A)

 

I left TI's set to basic, as I wanted to see what type of football was being achieved.

I set my Enganche to play more direct passes in hope that he plays more through balls and shoot less.

my three playmakers are:

Dybala

Thiago Almada (sp)

Phil Foden

all three have different PPMS, but all have tries killer balls.

 

My poachers

Roberto Firmino (I get he is more of a CF or DLF but he seems to do ok in the P role)

Regen striker with moves into channels, rounds keeper and tries first time shots.

Brewster with tries to beat offside, and tries first time shots.

 

During the matches im not seeing my Enganche being used as the main creator, a lot of my best supple is the flanks even when I tick through the middle. I tinker on a game by game basis the pass into space option depending on how the AI set up.

 

Do you think that if I put both of my full backs to FB (S) it would make a difference?

Also, is the Enganche less of a ball magnet than say AP or Treq?

Also an Idea I am toying with is setting the shape to very wide, but focus play down the middle so I can give my playmaker even more room, and considering setting it to be more disciplined, in thinking that would leave my creation down to my creative player?!

 

 

**side note** I think my favourite players are those with no PPMS... Gravenberch has been immense for me and he has none, but creates and scores.

[BMNJohn]

I'm interested in discussing the new Support duty for the Enganche in FM19 to see what others think. I must admit I didn't really like the Enganche in FM as an interpretation of how Riquelme played (if that was the intent)... because I think it's not a good interpretation of how Riquelme was. Sure he was very, very slow, but unlike how static the Enganche in FM is, Riquelme was a competent dribbler who could retain the ball both through his dribbling and his physical ability. In FM I found that the old Enganche on Attack duty was very static with the ball in his feet. If he didn't have a passing outlet, he'd lose the ball rather quickly because he wasn't allowed to make any dribbling attempt unless dictated by his PPMs. However, the EG had an Attack duty, which means his mentality was quite high, and therefore he would take a lot more risks. Now that he's on Support duty not only he's static, easily closed down on, can't dribble, but he also takes a bit less risks. The main apparent difference between him and the AP(S) is that the AP(S) has better and customizable freedom of movement but cannot really try his luck on goal since he's not allowed to get further forward nor shoot more often, and as such tends to sit a bit deeper.

What I'm driving at is I'm not sure of the Support duty for the Enganche, but now more than ever you really need good movement around him to make him work and have a really good player in that role who can move very well off the ball since he's not allowed to move when on the ball.. I'm personally more partial to the AP(A) as a playmaker... despite its tendency to try to dribble first before trying to pass the ball. Instead of integrating him into your setup, you're more building the team around the Enganche, and now more than ever.

Let me know what you guys think; I may be very off the mark with my assessment, but the choice to change the duty of the Enganche from Attack to Support is a bit puzzling to me.

[Experienced Defender]

15 hours ago, craigd84 said:

W (A)/RMD  EG (S)      W(S)

                      P (A)

 

Using a RMD and a poacher at the same time runs counter to basic football logic. RMD is nothing but a wide poacher, who looks to exploit any space from which he can act as a goal-scoring threat. So when you play with a RMD on a flank, your striker should be on support role and more of a creator type, preferably DLF or F9 (Firmino IMO is ideal for the F9 role).

 

15 hours ago, craigd84 said:

During the matches im not seeing my Enganche being used as the main creator, a lot of my best supple is the flanks even when I tick through the middle

Because ENG is a rather static type of playmaker, meaning he needs more players around him in support. ENG is generally a lot better suited to possession football. And you play wingers on both flanks (sometimes RMD on the right), plus poacher up front and two standard CMs in behind. So your enganche is basically lacking good passing options most of the time. Don't use a role only for the sake of using it, or because it looks "fancy".

 

15 hours ago, craigd84 said:

Also, is the Enganche less of a ball magnet than say AP or Treq?

He is not less of a ball-magnet, the problem is in what I've just explained above. 

[craigd84]

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Using a RMD and a poacher at the same time runs counter to basic football logic. RMD is nothing but a wide poacher, who looks to exploit any space from which he can act as a goal-scoring threat. So when you play with a RMD on a flank, your striker should be on support role and more of a creator type, preferably DLF or F9 (Firmino IMO is ideal for the F9 role).

 

Because ENG is a rather static type of playmaker, meaning he needs more players around him in support. ENG is generally a lot better suited to possession football. And you play wingers on both flanks (sometimes RMD on the right), plus poacher up front and two standard CMs in behind. So your enganche is basically lacking good passing options most of the time. Don't use a role only for the sake of using it, or because it looks "fancy".

 

He is not less of a ball-magnet, the problem is in what I've just explained above. 

When I use the RMD I put the striker offset so it's like I have two poachers.

 

I set my cms like that to see if it forces the playmaker to search out the poacher more often than not.

I have tried AP, Eng, and Treq... I think Treq has been the better, but still... no key passes.

[BMNJohn]

38 minutes ago, craigd84 said:

I have tried AP, Eng, and Treq... I think Treq has been the better, but still... no key passes.

Luis Figo on the wing had more assists than Zidane as a AMC. Key passes aren't a metric to be taken in isolation. If the AMC makes himself available, is able to pull defenders out of position and free space for others without even being close to the ball, does not lose the ball nor slow down the game when unnecessary and isn't closed out of the game that's a win already. That's why there's more information to get by watching matches than just going through the stats; especially in FM. FM counts stuff like crosses as key passes, even though most savvy football enthusiast would tell you that scoring from a cross is no better than shooting from outside the box in terms of conversion chances... at least in real-life.

That's also why in FM16 wing players, including full/wingbacks, had huge ratings: it was extremely difficult to stop crosses, therefore they had loads of "key passes"... that you wouldn't consider as key passes at all if you actually watched the match (even though it was absurdly easy to score from crosses in FM16). As said earlier it's not a good metric in isolation, just like clear-cut chances.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, craigd84 said:

When I use the RMD I put the striker offset so it's like I have two poachers.

 

I set my cms like that to see if it forces the playmaker to search out the poacher more often than not.

I have tried AP, Eng, and Treq... I think Treq has been the better, but still... no key passes.

Okay, what mentality do you play on and what are your team instructions (including those in transition and out of possession)? Ideally, you could simply post a screenshot of your tactic.

[craigd84]

1 hour ago, BMNJohn said:

Luis Figo on the wing had more assists than Zidane as a AMC. Key passes aren't a metric to be taken in isolation. If the AMC makes himself available, is able to pull defenders out of position and free space for others without even being close to the ball, does not lose the ball nor slow down the game when unnecessary and isn't closed out of the game that's a win already. That's why there's more information to get by watching matches than just going through the stats; especially in FM. FM counts stuff like crosses as key passes, even though most savvy football enthusiast would tell you that scoring from a cross is no better than shooting from outside the box in terms of conversion chances... at least in real-life.

That's also why in FM16 wing players, including full/wingbacks, had huge ratings: it was extremely difficult to stop crosses, therefore they had loads of "key passes"... that you wouldn't consider as key passes at all if you actually watched the match (even though it was absurdly easy to score from crosses in FM16). As said earlier it's not a good metric in isolation, just like clear-cut chances.

Yes I get that but I'm currentĺy watching the fill games and consider key passes or shall I say I want key passes to be through balls from the playmaker to the striker.

 

I want my whole final ball/creation through my number 10.

42 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, what mentality do you play on and what are your team instructions (including those in transition and out of possession)? Ideally, you could simply post a screenshot of your tactic.

Balanced to start with, clean slate on TI's occasionally choosing to focus through the middle I chose clean slate to see how it would function as is.

Transition distribute to cb and fb considering playmaker but he is a short player so kicks to him wouldn't be ideal.

[craigd84]

So in short I want my 10 to be the most involved, my orchestrater. Killer ball machine.

 

I want my poacher to be the goal machine.

[BMNJohn]

9 hours ago, craigd84 said:

Yes I get that but I'm currentĺy watching the fill games and consider key passes or shall I say I want key passes to be through balls from the playmaker to the striker.

 

I want my whole final ball/creation through my number 10.

Well I disagree with the bolded. If an AMC can make a break through with any of his teammates is what I'd care about. If he can find the winger free, the winger crosses for a tap-in from anyone else, that's good playmaking because he found the most high percentage way of making the team score. There's the vision, anticipation, quality passing and understanding of the situation in a single pass. I understand what you're aiming at, but I think you shouldn't be considering it that way.

[Experienced Defender]

As far as I (can) understand, it's more important to you that all key passes and even goal assists go through your PM (enganche) and all (or the vast majority of) goals be scored by the poacher than results and overall performance of your team, right? So, even if you somehow manage to achieve that, you'll be happy even if that means a defeat for your team?

The problem is that neither RL football nor FM - which is really the closest ever simulation of real football - work that way. Not only that your current tactic isn't conducive to achieving that, but even if your tactic was much better - your team is not alone on the pitch; there is the opposition which will logically look to thwart your play, just as you look to thwart theirs.

Nevertheless, I'll try now to give you some suggestions, at least on how you can improve your tactic and hopefully get the enganche and poacher more involved, but cannot guarantee that will work exactly as you expect (because, again, it's not how things in football/FM generally work).

First off, both your ENG and PO are too isolated in your current tactic to be more effective. Which means that you need a more logical setup of roles and duties to begin with. For example:

PO

IFsu            ENG          Wat

CMde     BBM

 

FBat      CDde     CDde     IWBde

GK (or SKde)

Now, what about mentality and team instructions?

Positive

In possession - much shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, (slightly) narrower width, overlap right (all these serve to make your team more compact when attacking, which - among other things - should help eneganche be more involved and better supported)

In transition - distribute to CBs and FBs, roll it out

Out of possession - higher d-line, standard LOE, prevent short GKD (whether you should use offside trap or not depends on how intelligent your defenders are, and speed is of course always welcome)

You'll need some player instructions as well:

GK/SKde - take fewer risks

both CBs - take fewer risks

LB/FBat - take fewer risks, sit narrower, shoot less often

RB/IWBde - no PIs (I think he is already hard-coded to take fewer risks)

MCL/CMde - take fewer risks, dribble less, shoot less often

MCR/BBM - take fewer risks, shoot less often, close down more

AML/IFsu - sit narrower, shoot less often, roam from position, close down more (max)

AMR/Wat - take fewer risks, shoot less often, close down more (max)

AMC/ENG - no PIs

ST/PO - move into channels, shoot more often, close down more (max)

NOTE: you may opt to use counter-press, in which case you don't need to increase closing down for individual players (either one or the other, not both at the same time)

The idea of this tactic is to minimize chances of your attacking play going through anyone other than the enganche, with the poacher patiently waiting for key passes that would get him into some promising goal-scoring chances. Will it work exactly like that? Let's hope so.

 

 

[craigd84]

On 23/04/2019 at 09:49, BMNJohn said:

Well I disagree with the bolded. If an AMC can make a break through with any of his teammates is what I'd care about. If he can find the winger free, the winger crosses for a tap-in from anyone else, that's good playmaking because he found the most high percentage way of making the team score. There's the vision, anticipation, quality passing and understanding of the situation in a single pass. I understand what you're aiming at, but I think you shouldn't be considering it that way.

Not to sound rude but how can you disagree with what I WANT? Yes good playmaking is how you described it BUT I WANT being the key word my designated playmaker getting majority of the assists, especially from through balls as like i said on last years game i managed to achieve this.

On 23/04/2019 at 11:17, Experienced Defender said:

As far as I (can) understand, it's more important to you that all key passes and even goal assists go through your PM (enganche) and all (or the vast majority of) goals be scored by the poacher than results and overall performance of your team, right? So, even if you somehow manage to achieve that, you'll be happy even if that means a defeat for your team?

The problem is that neither RL football nor FM - which is really the closest ever simulation of real football - work that way. Not only that your current tactic isn't conducive to achieving that, but even if your tactic was much better - your team is not alone on the pitch; there is the opposition which will logically look to thwart your play, just as you look to thwart theirs.

Nevertheless, I'll try now to give you some suggestions, at least on how you can improve your tactic and hopefully get the enganche and poacher more involved, but cannot guarantee that will work exactly as you expect (because, again, it's not how things in football/FM generally work).

First off, both your ENG and PO are too isolated in your current tactic to be more effective. Which means that you need a more logical setup of roles and duties to begin with. For example:

PO

IFsu            ENG          Wat

CMde     BBM

 

FBat      CDde     CDde     IWBde

GK (or SKde)

Now, what about mentality and team instructions?

Positive

In possession - much shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, (slightly) narrower width, overlap right (all these serve to make your team more compact when attacking, which - among other things - should help eneganche be more involved and better supported)

In transition - distribute to CBs and FBs, roll it out

Out of possession - higher d-line, standard LOE, prevent short GKD (whether you should use offside trap or not depends on how intelligent your defenders are, and speed is of course always welcome)

You'll need some player instructions as well:

GK/SKde - take fewer risks

both CBs - take fewer risks

LB/FBat - take fewer risks, sit narrower, shoot less often

RB/IWBde - no PIs (I think he is already hard-coded to take fewer risks)

MCL/CMde - take fewer risks, dribble less, shoot less often

MCR/BBM - take fewer risks, shoot less often, close down more

AML/IFsu - sit narrower, shoot less often, roam from position, close down more (max)

AMR/Wat - take fewer risks, shoot less often, close down more (max)

AMC/ENG - no PIs

ST/PO - move into channels, shoot more often, close down more (max)

NOTE: you may opt to use counter-press, in which case you don't need to increase closing down for individual players (either one or the other, not both at the same time)

The idea of this tactic is to minimize chances of your attacking play going through anyone other than the enganche, with the poacher patiently waiting for key passes that would get him into some promising goal-scoring chances. Will it work exactly like that? Let's hope so.

 

 

Great suggestions. I implemented these settings, some of the PI's were similar to what i had set where i could set them just different roles. This worked in a sense that in 15mins against Man City my Eng had 2 key passes. After 90mins he finished with 3 key passes and two assists, one was from a throughball out to my IF, but it wasnt considered a key pass. 

I was still a bit miffed as to why my Eng didnt send throughballs through to my Poacher so im considering a different role as i find that maybe he is too far advanced.

[BMNJohn]

Just now, craigd84 said:

Not to sound rude but how can you disagree with what I WANT? Yes good playmaking is how you described it BUT I WANT being the key word my designated playmaker getting majority of the assists, especially from through balls as like i said on last years game i managed to achieve this.

I don't disagree with what you want. I disagreed with it being, in my humble opinion, a goal you should pursue. Other than that, I do not weight on how you should be playing the game. It's nothing but an opinion.

[Experienced Defender]

41 minutes ago, craigd84 said:

I was still a bit miffed as to why my Eng didnt send throughballs through to my Poacher so im considering a different role as i find that maybe he is too far advanced

Because in lone-striker systems the strikers tend to be isolated if on attack duty, especially poachers who are a more static role than e.g. AF or DLF on attack. In order to make himself better available for a pass, he usually needs to drop deeper or move wider, but then he isn't in a good goal-scoring position. A lone poacher works better in counter-attacking styles (as opposed to possession), but in that case you need a more mobile AMC role than enganche. If you want your lone striker on attack duty, I would prefer DLF attack to poacher, and Firmino absolutely fits the role.

[Armistice]

10 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Because in lone-striker systems the strikers tend to be isolated if on attack duty, especially poachers who are a more static role than e.g. AF or DLF on attack. In order to make himself better available for a pass, he usually needs to drop deeper or move wider, but then he isn't in a good goal-scoring position. A lone poacher works better in counter-attacking styles (as opposed to possession), but in that case you need a more mobile AMC role than enganche. If you want your lone striker on attack duty, I would prefer DLF attack to poacher, and Firmino absolutely fits the role.

So you suggest a role that drops then a playmaker behind him. If the striker drops deep who is the playmaker going to create for?

[Experienced Defender]

10 minutes ago, Armistice said:

So you suggest a role that drops then a playmaker behind him. If the striker drops deep who is the playmaker going to create for?

DLF on attack duty  drops deeper in the build-up phase to help the midfield, but being on attack duty he also attacks the space when the attack moves into the final third to get himself in more dangerous position(s). The point is that he is more mobile than poacher, so will be more involved generally in the play. And even more so given that he insists on enganche, which is a more static type of PM. But it's hard to explain anything to people who tend to consider tactical elements in isolation 

[craigd84]

18 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

DLF on attack duty  drops deeper in the build-up phase to help the midfield, but being on attack duty he also attacks the space when the attack moves into the final third to get himself in more dangerous position(s). The point is that he is more mobile than poacher, so will be more involved generally in the play. And even more so given that he insists on enganche, which is a more static type of PM. But it's hard to explain anything to people who tend to consider tactical elements in isolation 

Noooo I'm not just set on Eng. I'm happy with a AP or Treq too, so long as he becomes the main supplier to the poacher.

[Experienced Defender]

15 minutes ago, craigd84 said:

Noooo I'm not just set on Eng. I'm happy with a AP or Treq too, so long as he becomes the main supplier to the poacher.

So if your poacher scores a great number of goals, but assists to him do not come from the player in AMC position, you would still be disappointed? 

Because nobody can guarantee you in advance that the very AMC (be it eng, tq or ap) will (be able to) provide key passes and assists to the lone poacher under any circumstances (unless opposition defenders decide for some strange reason to move themselves away and allow your players unlimited space in and around their box). 

Generally speaking, a TQ behind a poacher should work better than ENG (provided, as always, that you have the player with right attributes and traits). But no role or a combination of roles cannot be looked at in isolation from the rest of the tactic (taking into account the opposition as well).

 

[Experienced Defender]

In FM and football, it's not (only) about what you want but what's possible in a given situation.

[craigd84]

I get all of that, but I want to see MORE throughballs from my AMC to my ST, regardless if it comes off or not. 

[Experienced Defender]

59 minutes ago, craigd84 said:

I get all of that, but I want to see MORE throughballs from my AMC to my ST, regardless if it comes off or not. 

Well, in that case, it's more likely to happen if you play a counter-attacking style of football, where you create space for your forwards including the striker (poacher or whatever role) by luring the opposition into attacking you. The potential problem is that if you are a top team, most opponents will hesitate to attack you even if you intentionally drop deeper and give them more space. They will instead be happy to waste time by passing the ball around between themselves in their own half hoping to get a 0-0 draw. 

But if you want to try anyway, I can give you some ideas as to how you may set up a tactic.

[craigd84]

I was thinking cautious or even one step lower, with the AMC set to direct passing.

 

I really need to he at my pc to give you more of what I'm thinking.

[Experienced Defender]

1 minute ago, craigd84 said:

I was thinking cautious or even one step lower, with the AMC set to direct passing

You don't have to play on the cautious (or any low mentality) in order to be counter-attack oriented. Moreover, you can even achieve a better effect with a higher mentality (I would personally opt for positive). What you need to do is adjust some defensive settings and certain roles and duties.

[zlatanera]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

You don't have to play on the cautious (or any low mentality) in order to be counter-attack oriented. Moreover, you can even achieve a better effect with a higher mentality (I would personally opt for positive). What you need to do is adjust some defensive settings and certain roles and duties.

I'd second this, the last two years Attacking + Pass Into Space + Close Down More (More Urgent Pressing in FM19) has led to some wonderful counter-attacking football for me with Lyon, Dortmund, Manchester United, even Freiburg (although obviously not winning much with the latter as the squad was quite limited).

[craigd84]

15 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You don't have to play on the cautious (or any low mentality) in order to be counter-attack oriented. Moreover, you can even achieve a better effect with a higher mentality (I would personally opt for positive). What you need to do is adjust some defensive settings and certain roles and duties.

I did wonder this because using attacking the passes forwards would be quicker, but I figured a more cautious approach would lead to even more space. 

So, at somepoint i will trial:

Attacking, with the highest press, keep my pass into space although i dont see how the AMC will benefit from that but once/if he does get the ball I envisage the poacher will.

[zlatanera]

50 minutes ago, craigd84 said:

So, at somepoint i will trial:

Attacking, with the highest press, keep my pass into space although i dont see how the AMC will benefit from that but once/if he does get the ball I envisage the poacher will.

Attacking already sets a slightly higher defensive line and line of engagement so I wouldn’t touch them, just alter the actual pressing intensity. 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, craigd84 said:

Attacking, with the highest press, keep my pass into space although i dont see how the AMC will benefit from that but once/if he does get the ball I envisage the poacher will

Honestly, I don't think the Pass into space TI is going to help you achieve what you want in relation to the AMC and striker.

[craigd84]

@Experienced Defender Ah good, because id rather not have pass into space if it means my AMC wont see the ball as much.

 

ok @zlatanera I'll give that a whirl. 

[Experienced Defender]

Specifically for what you want to achieve, you need a very "rigid" tactical setup that discourages players from doing anything other than looking for the AMC to pass the ball to him whenever possible. That can (hopefully) be achieved though a very controlled "manipulation" of mentality in conjunction with roles and duties, but also requires use of player instructions (like the previous tactic I suggested, but with some new elements added). However, you need to bear in mind that such kind of tactic limits your attacking options very much, but I guess that's a price you are willing to pay