Any good Cautious / Defensive tactics out there ?

[Jebedaias]

As the title says, can anyone point me to some good such tactics (if there are any this year) ?

I've been trying in vain to play solid (boring) defensive football and most tactics around are at least Positive (if not Attacking) and High Intensity. I end-up conceeding like crazy on lower mentalities and ironically seem to get some clean sheets by going all-out attack (but I don't want that).

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Jebedaias said:

As the title says, can anyone point me to some good such tactics (if there are any this year) ?

I've been trying in vain to play solid (boring) defensive football and most tactics around are at least Positive (if not Attacking) and High Intensity. I end-up conceeding like crazy on lower mentalities and ironically seem to get some clean sheets by going all-out attack (but I don't want that).

What is a "good" or "bad" tactic - whether defensive or attacking - depends on what kind of squad/players you have. You don't even have to play on a low-risk mentality in order to play a (basically) defensive style of football. Also, lower mentalities do not guarantee good defensive performance in and of themselves (just as higher ones do not guarantee good attacking play).

[Jebedaias]

On 21/04/2019 at 17:39, Experienced Defender said:

What is a "good" or "bad" tactic - whether defensive or attacking - depends on what kind of squad/players you have.

In this particular scenario I was trying to create a rather boring but tough to break system with a 3rd league club that's actually predicted to win the league. Going into comparison it did indeed show that defensively we were either the league leaders or near the top (Marking, Tackling, Anticipation and such). In fact overall we had players that the game deemed more than adequate to make us favourites in that league (about half the team was in the "dream-team" in the season preview).

In the latest attempt I tried a flat 4-4-2 using a very slightly tweaked Direct Counter-Attack preset. For example the right winger - which IRL is indeed one of the team's main threats I set to Attacking mentality instead of Support; CM(R) on Defend, CM(L) on Support, Wide Midfielder on Support on the left, Full Backs on Support, Central Defenders on Defend and up front a TM (Support) coupled with a Poacher (Attack). The two up-front were both deemed very good for these particular roles aswell.

Well, needless to say, it didn't quite work out. I understand that going Cautious with a Slightly Deeper Defensive Line and Lower Line of Engagement meant giving up some space to the opponents, but that was one of the ideas I was going for. Since we were dubbed the main promotion contenders, opponents would probably set-up deep and wait for the counter, which ironically still worked out pretty well for them since we managed to concede a fair deal of goals with the amazing ball over the top; at some point I started wondering if the Deeper Defensive Line was even working properly as it seemed way to easy for forwards to get in behind. And when it wasn't this, the long-shots bonanza would definitely do us over as almost every game one of these would go in on our end. So the "tough to break" system was nowhere to be found since I think we only managed to keep a single clean sheet in the first 10 or so matches. Which is my main frustration, since we did end-up winning some of these games and generally we also ended-up scoring (even if it meant going Attacking, switching to Counter-Press / More Urgent Pressing and pushing the lines, which basically meant I had to throw away any ideas of a measured and calculated approach and just hope for the best).

So there you have it, 3-2's, 2-2's and 3-3's with some losses in between aswell. I wasn't that concerned with the overall results as much as with the overall scores. You know there's even a Press Conference question asking about what's going on defensively... Well I wish I knew. :)

[Experienced Defender]

57 minutes ago, Jebedaias said:

I understand that going Cautious with a Slightly Deeper Defensive Line and Lower Line of Engagement meant giving up some space to the opponents, but that was one of the ideas I was going for

The problem is, low-risk mentalities (like cautious) already set your DL pretty low (even if it's nominally standard), meaning that you are inviting even more pressure from opposition. A key aspect of defending - especially in an already defensive-minded tactical style - is vertical compactness. To achieve this, you need the DL to be at least on notch higher than LOE. Specifically in your case, I would go for standard DL and lower LOE. This reduces the playable space for opposition, making it harder for them to operate in your half, while also increasing your chances of intercepting their attack and launching a counter.

 

1 hour ago, Jebedaias said:

Since we were dubbed the main promotion contenders, opponents would probably set-up deep and wait for the counter

Logically 

 

1 hour ago, Jebedaias said:

which ironically still worked out pretty well for them since we managed to concede a fair deal of goals with the amazing ball over the top

Typical for lower leagues. That's why I prefer more balanced approaches when managing a LL team.

 

1 hour ago, Jebedaias said:

at some point I started wondering if the Deeper Defensive Line was even working properly as it seemed way to easy for forwards to get in behind. And when it wasn't this, the long-shots bonanza would definitely do us over as almost every game one of these would go in on our end. So the "tough to break" system was nowhere to be found since I think we only managed to keep a single clean sheet in the first 10 or so matches. Which is my main frustration, since we did end-up winning some of these games and generally we also ended-up scoring (even if it meant going Attacking, switching to Counter-Press / More Urgent Pressing and pushing the lines, which basically meant I had to throw away any ideas of a measured and calculated approach and just hope for the best).

So there you have it, 3-2's, 2-2's and 3-3's with some losses in between aswell. I wasn't that concerned with the overall results as much as with the overall scores. You know there's even a Press Conference question asking about what's going on defensively... Well I wish I knew.

I don't know your team, so it's impossible to offer you some more specific advice. But I can give you one possible example of how a LL team may be set up tactically in a 442 that is primarily defensive-minded but not to the extent that you let the opposition be all over you. Because ultra-defensive football requires good players, it's not just about putting as many bodies behind the ball as possible. 

PO     DLFat

 

WMsu      CMsu      DLPde      Wat

 

WBde      NCBde      CDde       NFB

GK/SKde

Balanced / slightly more direct passing, higher tempo, (slightly) narrower width, hit early crosses, overlap right (optionally/occasionally - pass into space) / counter (and distribute quickly over oppo defence if your GK is good at kicking) / standard DL, lower LOE (optionally - get stuck in)

Player instructions - all 4 mids and DLFat to mark tighter; both strikers - close down more

Of course, whether any tactic will work or not depends on the players you use in each position/role. This is just one possible setup, but certainly not the only. If you could post a screenshot of your current tactic, it would help a lot to see if there are any glaring issues.

 

[Klfh]

@Experienced Defender just out of curiosity, what mentality would you run that 442 on?

[Experienced Defender]

3 minutes ago, Klfh said:

@Experienced Defender just out of curiosity, what mentality would you run that 442 on?

I already wrote - Balanced 

 

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Balanced / slightly more direct passing, higher tempo, (slightly) narrower width, hit early crosses, overlap right (optionally/occasionally - pass into space) / counter (and distribute quickly over oppo defence if your GK is good at kicking) / standard DL, lower LOE (optionally - get stuck in)

 

[Klfh]

Ah, I interrogated that as balanced passing or slightly more direct passing (as in situational depending on opposition). But I suspected as much...

Considering that the op is looking at cautious or even defensive mentality, how would you adapt if you where forced to use a cautious mentality? Even higher tempo and a bit higher dl?

[scratchmonkey]

I'm currently playing as Bayern in 2030/31, so a situation where I'm the clear favorite in the vast majority of domestic matches and am doing so with a system that allows a ridiculously small amount of goals, have the press constantly refer to me as a "defensive coach", etc. We don't tend to score much; however, when you've got the other team on lockdown, that works out just fine.

And I'm using a tactic with an Attacking mentality. So I would question that you need to play on a lower mentality to achieve what you're looking for. 

(Which isn't to say that you can't do it with a Cautious mentality, just depends on what you're working with -- posting screens of your tactic/players would help a lot in terms of diagnosing what's going on.)

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Klfh said:

Considering that the op is looking at cautious or even defensive mentality, how would you adapt if you where forced to use a cautious mentality? Even higher tempo and a bit higher dl?

Tempo would definitely be higher in my tactic, and even DL can be moved up a notch on cautious mentality, paired with a low LOE for more vertical compactness. Now, lower mentalities also allow for a bit more attack duties, or at least you can change some defend duties to support. Assuming we still stick to a 442, it may be something like this:

PO      DLFat

 

WMsu      CMde      DLPsu       Wat

 

WBsu        NCBde      CDde       NFB

GK/SKde

Cautious / more direct passing, higher tempo, overlap left, hit early crosses (and situationally pass into space) / counter / higher DL, lower LOE, get stuck in

As in the previous tactic - all midfielders to mark tighter (PI), and both strikers to close down more.

Alternatively, I might consider removing the Get stuck in TI (because of the higher DL) and tell the midfielders to tackle harder instead. 

[Jebedaias]

11 hours ago, scratchmonkey said:

And I'm using a tactic with an Attacking mentality. So I would question that you need to play on a lower mentality to achieve what you're looking for. 

(Which isn't to say that you can't do it with a Cautious mentality, just depends on what you're working with -- posting screens of your tactic/players would help a lot in terms of diagnosing what's going on.)

I guess you could say that "offense is the best defense", yeah. Especially on this year's edition of the game I did notice that higher mentalities tend to better defensively speaking, but I was trying to see if maybe I could get away with playing a Low-Intensity / Cautious (simple / boring) type of football. I don't know how much the intensity really affects the game, but I don't like that bar to turn red(ish).

Unfortunately I can't post any screens of this since I abandoned the save in the meantime, but I did mention some details in the first post. It was basically a standard flat 4-4-2 with a slightly modified Direct Counter style, hardly any PIs. Roles were set-up like this:

Po (A)    TM (S)

 

WM (S)      CM (S)    CM (D)     W (A)

 

  FB (S)        CD (D)    NCB (D)       FB (S)

SK (D)

Cautious

Sligthly More Direct Passing

Slightly Higher Tempo

Regroup / Counter

Lower Line of Engagement

Lower Defensive Line

Thinking I can sit deep and draw out opponents, I used the Lower Defensive Line and Lower Line of Engagement setting, along with the default pressing setting, without Getting Stuck-In or Tight Marking. I was thinking to make it hard for the opposition to find space / break down my positioning instead of aggresively chasing them, but they did manage to find their way around using some balls-over-the-top a few times, which as I said made me wonder about the Defensive Line. I was thinking that these lower settings would at least work a bit better against that.

Anyway, I appreciate the feedback and I might give it another try sometime.

[Gianni Brera]

I am virtually always playing on Defensive mentality. When protecting a result, it goes down a notch to very defensive, when in need of goals I can escalate all the way up to very attacking if necessary. But that doesn't mean its actually ''defensive football''.

The defensive mentalities do a number of things that I like: in posession, the ball is handled with care. Players take their time, stay closer together, and they stick closer to their defensive positions, maintaining tactical discipline. Great! When out of posession, the defensive shape is more congested, they won't press and run around like headless chickens, and there is a natural tendency to drop back and protect the goal. Splendid.

 

The Attacking mentalities, in my view, very much represent the high-energy style I see every week on BBC in the Premier League: many forward runs, vertical passes, high tempo, creative freedom, and when out possession, players are frenetically running back and forth. You can create a more hybrid style through altering the TI's, or exaggerate it even - like going very high tempo on attack mentality.

 

If youre looking for actual defensive football, I tend to achieve that more through the actual player roles and duties. Essentially, those determine the team's movements and organization on the pitch. If you want to keep many player behind the ball and hold a defensive shape for 90 minutes, you need to tell them through the player duties and roles. I could select a Defensive mentality, and then have 4 attack duties and 4 support duties and 2 CB's on Defend. That will likely see your team dominate possession, have 4 players close to the opponents' box, and the entire team involved in the attacks. So in my book, thats very attacking football - if somewhat dull, sterile and slow.

I have had quite some success having 6 or even 7 Defend duties on a Defensive team mentality. What the team ends up doing is recycling possession deep in its own half, luring opponents forward, and then knock that ball into space behind them for your striker to run into. Or cross from deep for that attacking winger creeping into striker position. Its a different ball game that requires patience.

 

One thing I'd recommend when playing with 6 or more Defend duties on a very low team mentality is to rattle up the pressing intensity. Defend-duty players are instructed to sit off longer, coupled with the low Team mentality and deep defensive shape can cause your team to be locked under pressure in its own area. Increasing the pressing allows you to push back a bit more, keeping opponents away from the danger zones - and if youre in such a compact shape, you can safely allow your players to step out and close down the ball. And of course tight-mark and kick the living **** out of them.

[sporadicsmiles]

I think the replies to thread highlight that there are two distinct ways to approach the creation of a defensively sound tactic.

1. Set up to be attacking, and modify to make yourself defensively solid. This has the advantage of being more direct and risky, which can be good if you want to counter attack, but you probably pay for that in terms of your players being more offensively oriented when you have the ball.

2. Set up to be defensive, and modify to give yourself some bite up front. This has the advantage of being more risk free and compact, which should help with defending and not getting caught out of position. You probably pay for this on the offensive phase of the game, because your players will take fewer risks and be less offensive minded.

They are both equally valid ways to set up. I tend to favour the first approach when I am setting up defensively. I focus on scoring goals, and build defensive stability from that basis. I'd definitely be interested in someone writing about this (if anyone is reading this and fancies something new to play around with).

[Tsuru]

Cleon wrote once a very interesting topic about defensive football on a lower league team, including tips for small changes against other formations:

https://www.fmscout.com/a-how-to-set-up-a-defensive-442-diamond-narrow.html

It´s about a 442 diamond, however you can adapt and apply the strategy and see if it works with your formations.

I am still testing it on a 4141 DM wide and I think it works well. However on a 442 flat it was a complete disaster, because the strikers were very isolated and the players play naturally farthest, so they were trying long passes and loosing possession all the time.

This strategy is fantastic for creating a good and solid defence, however you can struggle on scoring goals, as sporadicmiles said. This is exactly the point where I am working at right now. 

I am playing on a very weak team in Wales and use a higher mentality means I will suffer lots of goals - I already tried it -  so I decided to start defensive football from the back and add some bite upfront.