Help - Possession Style

[Razor940]

So, I've been playing and I'm being successful with my Peterborough side, but I feel everytime that I'm keeping my team from reaching full potential. 

I can't post game ss, because I can't change the language, so I thought about using Genie instead to take screanshots of my players. I don't like to use Genie, but after seeing my father using this in english I thought it was a good idea for this.

My tactic:

SK(S)

WB(S) - CD(S) - CD(S) - WB(s)

DM(D)

CM(S) - MEZ(A)

IF(A) - CF(S) - IF(S)

The back four have fewer risky passes; IFs have stay narrower and thats all.

TIs: pass shorter, PoD, dribble less, take ball to the box, counter-press, take short kicks, much higher LoE, much higher DL, tight marking, prevent destibution and close down much more.

I play with a positive mentality.

Now the players:

CBs:

PPMS: Bring ball from defence, thight marking

PPMS: Stops play

PPMS: Brings ball from defence and the other like this one.

DMC:

PPMS: dictates tempo, comes deep to get the ball

PPMS: Comes deep

CMS:

PPMS: Gets in the box, gets further forward, tries killer balls, plays one twos, switches ball to the other flank

PPMS: Tries killer balls, gets forwrd, dictates tempo, switches ball to the other flank

PPMS: Comes deep, killer balls, plays one twos, dictates tempo

PPMS: Dictates tempo, tries killer balls, plays one twos

Wingbacks:

PPMS: plays from right, comes forward

PPMS: plays from left, knocks ball, goes to the line

Wingers:

PPMS: Knocks ball, cuts from the left, plays from left

PPMS: Custs from right, plays one twos, enters the box, place shots

PPMS: Comes deep, cuts from both wings, killer balls, run with the ball, plays one twos

PPMS: Gets in the box, cuts from both wings, plays one twos

strikers:

PPMS: Place shots, killer balls, plays one twos. 

 

This is my team, the other players I don't think are that important to put here.

Last season I used quite the same tactic and I got Malcom scoring 20 times in the league. The thing is I feel my front 3 super isolated sometimes and more often than not I get all of them with 6.5 or less. My striker gets a lot in scoring positions, but there's always a defender that antecipates him when there is a cross. I hear a lot about space and movement, but I don't feel that in my team even if I tick roam from position.

I don't want some plug responses, I want to hear explanations to understand better.

 

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, Razor940 said:

I've been playing and I'm being successful with my Peterborough side, but I feel everytime that I'm keeping my team from reaching full potential

What exactly do you mean by "full potential"? Full potential in terms of results, or in terms of performance on the pitch (playing style, creation of good chances etc,)? Are you overachieving or underachieving relative to board expectations (and/or media prediction), or you are just in line with expectations?

 

6 hours ago, Razor940 said:

TIs: pass shorter, PoD, dribble less, take ball to the box, counter-press, take short kicks, much higher LoE, much higher DL, tight marking, prevent destibution and close down much more.

I play with a positive mentality.

"Close down much more" - or extremely urgent pressing (which I suppose you are referring to?) - is a clear overkill - and a very risky one at that - when you play on much higher DL and LOE, with a high-risk mentality (positive in this case) and using counter-press in addition. Split block/press is a better and safer option.

Tight marking as a team instruction can also be risky in this particular tactical setup, because it works better when you play with more vertical compactness (and generally more conservative football). But it is still less risky than extreme pressing.

Your in possession instructions are basically okay for a possession-based style of football, but nothing outstanding (which is not necessarily wrong). So I guess the most important question here will be whether you chose right players for the roles (or vice versa).

[Razor940]

14 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

What exactly do you mean by "full potential"? Full potential in terms of results, or in terms of performance on the pitch (playing style, creation of good chances etc,)? Are you overachieving or underachieving relative to board expectations (and/or media prediction), or you are just in line with expectations?

 

"Close down much more" - or extremely urgent pressing (which I suppose you are referring to?) - is a clear overkill - and a very risky one at that - when you play on much higher DL and LOE, with a high-risk mentality (positive in this case) and using counter-press in addition. Split block/press is a better and safer option.

Tight marking as a team instruction can also be risky in this particular tactical setup, because it works better when you play with more vertical compactness (and generally more conservative football). But it is still less risky than extreme pressing.

Your in possession instructions are basically okay for a possession-based style of football, but nothing outstanding (which is not necessarily wrong). So I guess the most important question here will be whether you chose right players for the roles (or vice versa).

I did read somethings in the Line and Diamonds thread and I removed the press, play out of defence, dribble less and tight marking.

I'm seeing a lot more flair in my game. My possession is not 70%, but I'm starting to be okay with it because of the difference in counting possession. 

I would say I demolished the expectations, but I'm barely winning. I don't score much too be honest and I think I have the players to do it.

I see a lot of play by the wings and not so much by the middle. Not that I just want to play by the middle, but I see a lot of problems in open up space in the middle for a killer ball to be put.  

[Experienced Defender]

Centeno could be pretty good in a DLP role, judging both from his attributes and PPMs (traits). His major weakness though is low bravery, meaning there's the risk he might panic when pressed/tackled hard by opposition.

Lo Celso has all that is need for a very good mezzala. I suppose you play him in that role, right? The same can be said for Cuisance.

Alena looks like a good advanced or roaming PM.

Saelemaeker's very poor tackling can be a liability.

How do you play Bailey and Malcom? Who is on the left (IFsup) and who on the right (IFatt)?

Finally, I would play your lone striker (Silva) as an F9, rather than CF. And would tell him to roam from position (PI). By dropping deeper he would create more space for the MEZ and IF attacking the box, and would be better involved in the build-up phase, working together with deeper midfield.

[Experienced Defender]

13 minutes ago, Razor940 said:

I see a lot of play by the wings and not so much by the middle. Not that I just want to play by the middle, but I see a lot of problems in open up space in the middle for a killer ball to be put.

It's probably because (I guess) most opponents defend tightly against you, looking to pack the middle areas, which logically leaves more space on the flanks for your wide players. You may add the "Be more expressive" TI to encourage your midfielders and forwards to use more flair and creativity, which they obviously have in abundance.

[Razor940]

1 hora atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Centeno could be pretty good in a DLP role, judging both from his attributes and PPMs (traits). His major weakness though is low bravery, meaning there's the risk he might panic when pressed/tackled hard by opposition.

Lo Celso has all that is need for a very good mezzala. I suppose you play him in that role, right? The same can be said for Cuisance.

Alena looks like a good advanced or roaming PM.

Saelemaeker's very poor tackling can be a liability.

How do you play Bailey and Malcom? Who is on the left (IFsup) and who on the right (IFatt)?

Finally, I would play your lone striker (Silva) as an F9, rather than CF. And would tell him to roam from position (PI). By dropping deeper he would create more space for the MEZ and IF attacking the box, and would be better involved in the build-up phase, working together with deeper midfield.

Usually I use Foden and Malcom in the right, Bailey and Marin in the left. And I'm kinda questioning if its a good thing to use two IFs with get in the box at the same time.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Razor940 said:

Usually I use Foden and Malcom in the right, Bailey and Marin in the left. And I'm kinda questioning if its a good thing to use two IFs with get in the box at the same time.

I would also play them on the same sides like you, but would swap duties. In my setup Bailey/Marin would be IF on attack (AML), and Foden/Malcom would be IF on support (AMR). The mezzala would then be moved to MCR, to give more balance. Btw, I wouldn't be too obsessed with possession if I had players as good as yours. 

[kingking]

14 hours ago, Razor940 said:

I did read somethings in the Line and Diamonds thread and I removed the press, play out of defence, dribble less and tight marking.

I'm seeing a lot more flair in my game. My possession is not 70%, but I'm starting to be okay with it because of the difference in counting possession. 

 I would say I demolished the expectations, but I'm barely winning. I don't score much too be honest and I think I have the players to do it.

 I see a lot of play by the wings and not so much by the middle. Not that I just want to play by the middle, but I see a lot of problems in open up space in the middle for a killer ball to be put.  

use Play Narrow to create more possession

use Pass into space if you have amazing fast wingers/strikers 

play high tempo to help create more space and tire your opponent 

Use less dribbling + Work into the Box + More Expression to create more possession 

use short or standard passing style to play a short passing game to have more possession

use a lower defensive line and do not use the offside line, also set your CBs to cover to prevent counter attacks against teams with good counter attacking football

[Rashidi]

Just going to correct some things

23 hours ago, kingking said:

use Play Narrow to create more possession

Play narrow does not give you more possession, it helps with possession for poor teams by instructing the team to pass inside. What you want to do to help possession is to tell any FBs with poor passing to sit a bit narrow

23 hours ago, kingking said:

use Pass into space if you have amazing fast wingers/strikers 

that only works when the opposition has played higher up the pitch, look for them to be playing a high line or with attacking wingbacks. Then this is a good strategy. Otherwise you can use PIS in other circumstances to, when you are enjoying more possession and can afford to take risks and are in possession of players with good OTB, decisions and passing;

23 hours ago, kingking said:

play high tempo to help create more space and tire your opponent 

higher tempo does not equal more space, you can tire a team out simply by keeping the ball and moving it around. 

23 hours ago, kingking said:

Use less dribbling + Work into the Box + More Expression to create more possession 

You can also do the opposite and have more possession, it does not correlate to more possession. A team on ocan run at defence, be more disciplined and leave the WBIB unchecked to have more possession. Possession is a function of your overall tactical shape. You can have more possession anywhere on the pitch, you can use counter pressing if your side is good to have high possession too. It all depends on your overall tactical shape. Dribbling helps with not losing the ball, but it can also disrupt the lines of an opponent and force them back if your players are good enough. Work ball into box just moves the ball around reduces crossing, it does help with possession. More expression can be a risky way of trying to gain more possession. It can also fail.

23 hours ago, kingking said:

use short or standard passing style to play a short passing game to have more possession

Generally shorter passing will help with possession provided you have enough players in close support, which is why the overall width of narrow works in tandem with this. By itself it will not help with possession, but it helps within an overall tactical setup. It is part of the puzzle not the solution.

23 hours ago, kingking said:

use a lower defensive line and do not use the offside line, also set your CBs to cover to prevent counter attacks against teams with good counter attacking football

Absolutely wrong. You do not need a lower defensive line to always play good counter attacking football. This instructs your team how far away from goal you want them to be. The lower the defensive line the higher the risk of a long shot. Your offside line is an important component of an overall defense because it defines playable area behind you. When you use the offside line you set the area behind your defence as unplayable. It can work with any defensive line, though it makes no sense to use it with a low defensive line. You do not need to set your cd on cover to play good counter attacking football either.

All you need is to make yourself compact, this can be done by using your defensive line and line of engagement thoughtfully. If your LOE is high, with a low DL you are increasing the area that individual players need to control, this is not what counter attacking sides do. They make themselves more compact so that spaces are a premium. Just set your LOE sensibly and use a standard defensive line to start with. Observe your team. Watch your games. Do you want to sit on top of your goal and defend there always?  Perhaps your team is decent enough to defend just further away from goal.

 

[Razor940]

Em 19/04/2019 em 23:17, Experienced Defender disse:

I would also play them on the same sides like you, but would swap duties. In my setup Bailey/Marin would be IF on attack (AML), and Foden/Malcom would be IF on support (AMR). The mezzala would then be moved to MCR, to give more balance. Btw, I wouldn't be too obsessed with possession if I had players as good as yours. 

Thanks, I gave it a shot and it's looking pretty good with the TI changes that I did. The only thing I need to check is my way of playing from deep. I'm losing a lot os pass completation and I didn't have the opportunity to review. I'm also experimenting with success the IWB combinations with wingers, but I'm using the wingers in the wide midfield strata to open more the opposition. I'm in the brink of using this as my first tactic, because everyone is marking tight my players, and using the two IWB i can set my two midfielders free, like Guardiola did against Conte.

I'm obcessed with having the ball, it's my philosophy, no way to change it. I'm a person naturally obcessed for control of everything (happily not people tho ) and I don't feel good playing other way. I'm a product of this football intelectual new wave.

[Experienced Defender]

33 minutes ago, Razor940 said:

I'm obcessed with having the ball, it's my philosophy, no way to change it. I'm a person naturally obcessed for control of everything (happily not people tho ) and I don't feel good playing other way. I'm a product of this football intelectual new wave

Okay mate  In that regard, have you possibly considered using a DLP on support in a CM position? Having a playmaker usually goes hand in hand with possession-based football. Maybe you should even change the mezzala's duty to support (also for possession reasons).

 

36 minutes ago, Razor940 said:

I'm also experimenting with success the IWB combinations with wingers, but I'm using the wingers in the wide midfield strata to open more the opposition. I'm in the brink of using this as my first tactic, because everyone is marking tight my players, and using the two IWB i can set my two midfielders free, like Guardiola did against Conte

I generally like the IWB as a role (though not necessarily on both flanks at the same time). And since you said you are now playing wingers in WM strata, I guess your formation now is a flat 4141 (instead of 4141dm wide)?

[Razor940]

13 horas atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Okay mate  In that regard, have you possibly considered using a DLP on support in a CM position? Having a playmaker usually goes hand in hand with possession-based football. Maybe you should even change the mezzala's duty to support (also for possession reasons).

 

I generally like the IWB as a role (though not necessarily on both flanks at the same time). And since you said you are now playing wingers in WM strata, I guess your formation now is a flat 4141 (instead of 4141dm wide)?

The thing about the DLP is that it's too static. I want someone that takes the ball and passes it short. More times than not the DLP has the ball deep in my midfield and than he just passes long because he is to far from the rest. I don't know if this was because of the dribble less TI, but since then I didn't try it again.

Yes, but it's not my principal formation tho. I like the IWB on both flanks because it just overwhelms teams. 

[Rashidi]

2 hours ago, Razor940 said:

I like the IWB on both flanks because it just overwhelms teams.

I have liked the IWB since it was introduced because it gives teams a lot more options, the only downside is choosing the right player for this role within your system. Choose the wrong one and that flank turns into a leaky faucet.