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Iamarock

The Archetype Project, building a Dream team.

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Looking forward to see more of this thread. It’s very close to my team at the moment, with only a few differences. Love the archetypes theme, and especially the Zico-role should be an interesting interpretation. What a player he was.

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2 hours ago, Iamarock said:

Play out of defense= I very much dislike long passes from the back line, this isn't american football.

Why using a BPD then?

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8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Why using a BPD then?

For versatility, if my defender has the eye for them I am not against him trying, what I am against is players who have no business trying those sort of passes launching the ball forwards without rhyme or reason. 

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11 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Why using a BPD then?

BPD on FM19 is very different from a FM18 BPD. 

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14 minutes ago, Cleon said:

BPD on FM19 is very different from a FM18 BPD. 

I agree (and even NCB is different in FM19), but my remark related to this concrete sentence:

 

2 hours ago, Iamarock said:

I very much dislike long passes from the back line, this isn't american football

But now that he explained the reasoning behind, I guess it's okay :thup:

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23 minutes ago, Cleon said:

BPD on FM19 is very different from a FM18 BPD. 

How?

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

I agree (and even NCB is different in FM19), but my remark related to this concrete sentence:

 

But now that he explained the reasoning behind, I guess it's okay :thup:

And so was mine. The BPD doesn't hit the ball as direct as he used to. The role had significant work done on it this year under the hood so it naturally plays out from the back and isn't looking for Hollywood style passes out from the back.

1 hour ago, Armistice said:

How?

 

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The first Quarter of the Season

389142910_TheDreamBegins.thumb.png.4c365594720a2d30ee830da1910cf758.png

This here is our starting XI, aside from Götze our transfer budget was spent poaching some of the brightest U18 talent in Europe: Marin, Arp, Tonali and Morilla (to mold them into archetypes). I only sold Lucas Piazón and Caballero. 

From this XI only Hazard fully embodies an archetype (the magician) my Dream team will take shape with patience and time I don't want to simply spend exorbitant amounts of cash on the usual suspects and call it an achievement.

 I was hoping that Gotze could perform at a high level with his great chance-creating attributes but he has been far from the number 10 I wanted him to be and I am not entirely sure about how to improve this, he simply doesn't contribute enough: 40 passes per game, 1'5 fouls against per game, 2'5 tackles won per game, 0'75 dribbles per game. All of this translating in 1 assist and 10 key passes in 9 games. I am considering either giving him the APs role or giving him the PIs dribble more, more risky passes, get further forward.

Emerson and azpilicueta have been playing just as I wanted to and have yet to gain a rating below 7'0. 

I didn't sign a any centre-backs because I expect Christensen to improve throughout the season and Rudiger to suffice for the first year. 

I am having no problem creating chances but our finishing has left us down in one or two matches which I guess is a good sign when it comes to the tactic working. Our only truly bad match was the Community Shield match where I discovered that I had to add the "Work Ball into the Box team instruction"

1112487476_firstquarter.thumb.png.ba3f0f473be88b893bc905c8b2690a2b.png

1362702141_firstquarterstandings.thumb.png.ff5741ff0e22dc6c96609cd9b366cde4.png

During the next matches I will experiment with my number 10 role to try and get more out of it. I am leaving the discussion on the evolution and shaping of my youngsters for later, when enough time has passed for a significant change to take place

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This is a nice thread. When you read about all the classic managers that have stamped their mark on the game you will find one theme in common - They had a vision of how they wanted to play and over the course of time, they assembled/moulded a team in that image. So I will be reading this with interest as its also the subject of another post, how you transform your vision to a tactical system. It's so cool to see others doing it too.

I think the challenge for you to get Gotze to be a major cog lies in your use of the DLP behind him. It could be one of the reasons, you typically want the creator to have play flowing through him. I would be interested in checking things like pass combinations in the game. Here you will see patterns develop. I like the idea of using an IWB(S) as i find that IWBs are very strong in FM19 if used within tactical systems that either already have wingers. Quite a surprising number of people are still making mistakes with how they set up them up. I am not  entirely sure how the IWB and the BBM are going to play off each other. If you go through the passing combinations you may be able to get better information on what's going on. I doubt you need to make major changes apart from just shifting roles around. I noticed in your comment that the IWB will cover the space when the BBM moves forward. They may actually hold hands going forward :-) and this could affect how the DLP is doing

Overall though i like the way you are trying to translate a coherent vision into a system. 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

This is a nice thread. When you read about all the classic managers that have stamped their mark on the game you will find one theme in common - They had a vision of how they wanted to play and over the course of time, they assembled/moulded a team in that image. So I will be reading this with interest as its also the subject of another post, how you transform your vision to a tactical system. It's so cool to see others doing it too.

I think the challenge for you to get Gotze to be a major cog lies in your use of the DLP behind him. It could be one of the reasons, you typically want the creator to have play flowing through him. I would be interested in checking things like pass combinations in the game. Here you will see patterns develop. I like the idea of using an IWB(S) as i find that IWBs are very strong in FM19 if used within tactical systems that either already have wingers. Quite a surprising number of people are still making mistakes with how they set up them up. I am not  entirely sure how the IWB and the BBM are going to play off each other. If you go through the passing combinations you may be able to get better information on what's going on. I doubt you need to make major changes apart from just shifting roles around. I noticed in your comment that the IWB will cover the space when the BBM moves forward. They may actually hold hands going forward :-) and this could affect how the DLP is doing

Overall though i like the way you are trying to translate a coherent vision into a system. 

Thank you for your insight, I have noticed that the IWB and the BBM do tend to stick too close together and thanks to your comment on the DLP starving Götze I think I have come up with an improvement that will help our way of playing, I will try it out until mid season and then comment the results.

Edited by Iamarock

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Looking forward to it, you seem to have a clear idea of a vision and i will be following this thread closely.

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A Mistake

Why couldn't I make my n10 work as I wanted? because I was too focused on the roles themselves and had forgotten about the players. There was no need for me to use a DLP because PPms and a few Pis will make the Regista for me. Take Tonali: Tries Killer balls often, Dictates Tempo, Tries long range passes, Brings the ball out of defence. It doesn't matter what role I give him because he is already a Regista by his repertoire alone I could make him a Volante and he would gravitate towards playing as a regista. 

The same is true for the BBM, I thought that only this role would make my player both attack and defend when in truth the whole team will defend and the player will regroup along with the team so long as he has a decent work rate.

I was momentarily blinded by my "perfect" blueprint and failed to notice how it had become an obstacle to my players.

A box is born

898843857_Thedreamcontinues.thumb.png.0c2cec1204eb9837f824ee8f8e106a88.png

This is the new, improved version of my original idea. The CM-d has been told to "dribble less" and "take more risks". The CM-a and AP-s conserve their "Close down more" instruction. I have chosen not to include any players in the image because the winter market is coming and a few trades might take place.

The IWB-s positioning creates a box in the midfield with the help of the Cm-a, AP-s and CM-d, this box is crucial in helping us dominate the game and squeeze our opponents in their own half (our opponents create a chance every 93 minutes)

..1866612122_clearcutchances.png.d6cc02c17f05853f615042a222e94e07.png

We have an average of 59% of possession per game and have scored a grand total of 44 goals in 19 games while conceding only 15 (5 set pieces and 6 counter attacks).

It's funny how unmistakably Brasilian the tactic is something which has got me thinking about the possible step forwards for the tactic

The Future

Like I said I realized a third of the way into the season just how Brazilian my tactic is, the box midfield, the deep striker, the possession oriented approach... this has got me thinking about the headache that is the N10 role and how Zico was not only a technical genius but a prolific goal scorer.

The following formation and role combination will not be used during this season but is one of the futures I envision for this tactic:

1049356716_TheFuture.thumb.png.68626539600b12ecd8a35e96c42b2ad0.png

Very reminiscent of 1970's Brazil. I made the Cm-d into a DLP-d because I am not entirely comfortable fielding a side without a designated playmaker, The one issue with this team might be it's defensive vulnerabilities so I am waiting to either sign or develop a good solid pair of defenders before I even take a shot at this.

The League

691218387_wearehalfwaythere.thumb.png.7a7508cb59d6690f21b1efc7b00ba3c2.png

We had an amazing run collecting another 21 points for a grand total of 46/57 points. Finishing is still something to work on with both Arp and Morata missing some really good chances that would have left us with a healthy 50/57 points but we are actually generating enough chances per game to go first despite this so i am overall happy about it. I promised The chairman that I would qualify for Champions League because I was unsure about my tactic but if things keep going our way we might even win the League.

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Enjoying the progress on the tactic, are you still rocking the team instructions from the OP? Or have they changed as your tactic has evolved? 

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46 minutes ago, ramie said:

Enjoying the progress on the tactic, are you still rocking the team instructions from the OP? Or have they changed as your tactic has evolved? 

I only added the "work ball into the box" instruction after losing the community shield to Man City in a rather humiliating way.

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A look into the Future

 

Like I previously said I am not comfortable with the idea of burning through mountains of cash in order to make my dream team, instead I should want to develop the players from my academy into world-class players who can proudly call themselves the best at what they do. I have just received my first youth intake and in combination with my early signings I have several promising gems in my club:

 

Pelayo Morilla (17): I paid the release clause for him during pre-season and he has been improving greatly during these months, I have high hopes for this player who will surely become my N10.

Technical: 15 finishing. 16 first touch, 16 technique. Some very good skills on the ball for his age

Mental: 12 composure. 14 vision. 13 decisions. 12 flair. Not a genius but with a good idea of what to do

Physical: 15 acceleration, 15 Agility, 15 pace. He is no speedster but he is no turtle either.

 

Antonio marin (18): An ambidestroux dribbler with a bright future ahead of him, Were it not for Pedro he would already form part of the first team as Hazard's substitute.

technical: 17 dribbling, 14 first touch, 16 technique. It is all about carrying the ball on his feet

Mental: 18 flair, 13 off the ball, 12 composure. He is not that sure of what to do with the ball once carried but that can be worked on.

Physical: 14 acceleration, 14 natural fitness, 14 agility, 14 pace. Some nice physical aid to his runs that could improve even further.

 

Sandro Tonali (18): the next Andrea Pirlo, because there are so many midfielders in my squad he is playing in the U23s but you can be sure that someone will leave to make way for him next season.

technical: 15 first touch, 16 passing, 16 technique. If Marin is a ball carrier Tonali is a ball distributor confident on his passes.

Mental: 15 composure, 12 decisions, 14 teamwork, 14 vision, 14 workrate. An excellent head for someone as young.

Physical: 14 stamina, 14 acceleration. He is no Toure Yaya and he doesn't need to be.

 

Fiete Arp (19): My substitute striker, Giroud will have to look for a new team this summer because of this guy, a very complete forward who can both spearhead an attack and link play with people coming from deep.

technical: 16 finishing, 15 first touch, 13 long shots, 13 technique. Like I said I am looking for someone with good first touch finishes.

Mental: 14 anticipation, 14 bravery, 14 decisions, 16 off the ball, 15 teamwork, 13 composure. He has his head in the right place when it comes to chasing passes.

Physical: 14 pace, 14 natural fitness, 14 Balance, 13 jumping reach. He is no tank but he will not be let down by his own body when fighting for the ball. 

 

Liam Hendey-Hoole(15): The pride and Joy of my first Youth Intake, this small winger can easily become my first choice attacking wingback for the next decade.

technical: 15 crossing, 16 technique, 11 first touch. From a purely technical point of view he is already a better crosser than my first team wingbacks.

Mental: 19 aggression, 12 anticipation, 12 composure, 11 decisions, 11 vision. Once he improves on some key attributes he is going to be a tireless defender and great crosser.

Physical: 15 acceleration, 16 natural fitness, 14 pace, 14 agility. good attributes that will help him when going backwards and forwards during a game.

 

Some other players might also become first team members but are a clear step behind this five prospects. I have been choosing training roles that focuses on some key attributes that I want to improve (poacher, winger, Deep Lying Playmaker) before they make it to the first team and once those deficiencies are corrected I switch to a more universal training role (complete forward, roaming playmaker, Box to Box midfielder, Complete wingback).

My youngsters train at double the intensity and have a specific focus assigned to either correct some weakness or improve some strength.

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26 minutes ago, Iamarock said:

A look into the Future

 

Like I previously said I am not comfortable with the idea of burning through mountains of cash in order to make my dream team, instead I should want to develop the players from my academy into world-class players who can proudly call themselves the best at what they do. I have just received my first youth intake and in combination with my early signings I have several promising gems in my club:

 

Pelayo Morilla (17): I paid the release clause for him during pre-season and he has been improving greatly during these months, I have high hopes for this player who will surely become my N10.

Technical: 15 finishing. 16 first touch, 16 technique. Some very good skills on the ball for his age

Mental: 12 composure. 14 vision. 13 decisions. 12 flair. Not a genius but with a good idea of what to do

Physical: 15 acceleration, 15 Agility, 15 pace. He is no speedster but he is no turtle either.

 

Antonio marin (18): An ambidestroux dribbler with a bright future ahead of him, Were it not for Pedro he would already form part of the first team as Hazard's substitute.

technical: 17 dribbling, 14 first touch, 16 technique. It is all about carrying the ball on his feet

Mental: 18 flair, 13 off the ball, 12 composure. He is not that sure of what to do with the ball once carried but that can be worked on.

Physical: 14 acceleration, 14 natural fitness, 14 agility, 14 pace. Some nice physical aid to his runs that could improve even further.

 

Sandro Tonali (18): the next Andrea Pirlo, because there are so many midfielders in my squad he is playing in the U23s but you can be sure that someone will leave to make way for him next season.

technical: 15 first touch, 16 passing, 16 technique. If Marin is a ball carrier Tonali is a ball distributor confident on his passes.

Mental: 15 composure, 12 decisions, 14 teamwork, 14 vision, 14 workrate. An excellent head for someone as young.

Physical: 14 stamina, 14 acceleration. He is no Toure Yaya and he doesn't need to be.

 

Fiete Arp (19): My substitute striker, Giroud will have to look for a new team this summer because of this guy, a very complete forward who can both spearhead an attack and link play with people coming from deep.

technical: 16 finishing, 15 first touch, 13 long shots, 13 technique. Like I said I am looking for someone with good first touch finishes.

Mental: 14 anticipation, 14 bravery, 14 decisions, 16 off the ball, 15 teamwork, 13 composure. He has his head in the right place when it comes to chasing passes.

Physical: 14 pace, 14 natural fitness, 14 Balance, 13 jumping reach. He is no tank but he will not be let down by his own body when fighting for the ball. 

 

Liam Hendey-Hoole(15): The pride and Joy of my first Youth Intake, this small winger can easily become my first choice attacking wingback for the next decade.

technical: 15 crossing, 16 technique, 11 first touch. From a purely technical point of view he is already a better crosser than my first team wingbacks.

Mental: 19 aggression, 12 anticipation, 12 composure, 11 decisions, 11 vision. Once he improves on some key attributes he is going to be a tireless defender and great crosser.

Physical: 15 acceleration, 16 natural fitness, 14 pace, 14 agility. good attributes that will help him when going backwards and forwards during a game.

 

Some other players might also become first team members but are a clear step behind this five prospects. I have been choosing training roles that focuses on some key attributes that I want to improve (poacher, winger, Deep Lying Playmaker) before they make it to the first team and once those deficiencies are corrected I switch to a more universal training role (complete forward, roaming playmaker, Box to Box midfielder, Complete wingback).

My youngsters train at double the intensity and have a specific focus assigned to either correct some weakness or improve some strength.

I am using the same tactic like you with WestHame except two CM's roles but similar idea, a BWM (defend) and a Mezzala. 
We are have finished the first half of the season and manage to sit on the 6th.
But I am not happy with the AMC's preforming, I want him to be my main creator who can make a lot of chances for my striker and IF, but he created a few chances, got 1 assist and no goal.
Can you make a post about how your AMC in your system work? 

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5 minutes ago, jasonbuids said:

I am using the same tactic like you with WestHame except two CM's roles but similar idea, a BWM (defend) and a Mezzala. 
We are have finished the first half of the season and manage to sit on the 6th.
But I am not happy with the AMC's preforming, I want him to be my main creator who can make a lot of chances for my striker and IF, but he created a few chances, got 1 assist and no goal.
Can you make a post about how your AMC in your system work? 

I am going to tell you the truth I am not very happy with my AMC myself, I have been experimenting with different approaches but nothing really clicks, I am soon going to hit the thirty League games mark and when I do I will write a post detailing some problems that have appeared.

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An Inspired Diamond

 

Because Willian has been injured since december and we are not having the easiest of times and our last game against Tottenham ended in a 0-2 defeat that saw us relinquish first place to man united I decided to face the sixth round of the FA cup with a new approach:

diamond.thumb.png.12ca213bfda5058de9700f2f64b9f929.png

This here is my first attempt in Football manager at a narrow formation. I wanted to overload the midfield in order to force them to play wider and in order to control the game through possession without my box midfield. 

I added the instructions: "much higher line of engagement" and "prevent short goalkeeper distribution".

overcrowding.thumb.png.51067ff6bb9f8e0309495f9b448d8412.png

As you can see my midfield diamond meant that not only did I have a 1 per 1 marking system against them but my anchorman could collect any stray header which did indeed saw them try to play in the wider areas of the pitch.

Because Kane was injured Alli was playing as a striker and had a miserable game almost not seeing the ball because all Tottenham could do was send crosses that were dealt with by Rüdiger and Christensen.

684667265_1-0chelseatottenham.thumb.png.943cce651c4592fc3163593d05fc115e.png

Here we can see how the extra man on midfield allowed Barkley to spot a long pass into space for morata to score the 1-0. Additionally Tottenham were having trouble dealing with the wingbacks with one of them almost always unmarked and with two or more players not helping in the defensive effort.

 wingplay.thumb.png.b3dc60157e93ff643c1e4282fc79030a.png

When the ball was on the flanks Tottenham would often allow us to make an inside pass to a free midfielder and again leave a wingback free of any short of mark or pressure perhaps because the narrow front free demanded that they in turn defend narrowly. Here Alonso passed the ball to barkley who sniped zappacosta down the right wing who crossed a ball for Morata to score the 2-0.

Tottenham only managed to score on the 87th minute thanks to a fluke counter.

 

There are however a few things that I am not entirely sure about:

 first, despite our extra man in midfield we only managed 51% possession mainly because several long passes to the wingbacks would get intercepted, If I use this tactic again in the future I don't know if I should add the option play narrower to correct this.

second, We defended the wide areas poorly and if Tottenham had had a proper striker things might had turned out very different, I am not sure how to better defend this areas of the pitch without sacrificing my main attacking advantage.

third, The shadow striker did little to connect the midfield with the striker partnership, an It is either his or the BBM's fault, I must look more into it.

 

Could someone with more experience playing this kind of formations shed some light on this issues? this is a second tactic I'd like to keep as an alternative to our main 4231.

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Posted (edited)

A blue winter

horrible.thumb.png.2622b7418e640dfef4d6f118385a8158.png

The third quarter of the season saw us lose our first spot on the premier to United, struggle to win the carabao cup against Watford in a comeback victory and barely narrow out our victories against opposition we should be dispatching with more ease. It started in december but since we did get the chances going I couldn't really change anything for the better.

But the truth is that we are not playing as we used to and weaker teams have been hurting us on the counter. To make matters worse we confidently hit 3 to 5 wood posts per game and most goalkeepers get possessed by the spirit of Lev Yashin when playing against us so even if our chance creation hasn't worsened dramatically these chances amount no nothing on a regular basis. A 2-1 comeback win from set pieces against BRIGHTON almost made me give up on the tactic entirely.

The problem is that I can't get my AMC to perform at acceptable levels, I have tried taking the playmaker job away from him, turning him into a shadow striker and pairing him with a false nine, give him an advance forward to pass the ball to. Nothing I have tried has worked and it is very much time to admit that the Götze experiment has been an utter failure.

last match I won 2-0 against huddersfield dropping the defensive line to higher to better deal with their long balls and adding the "be more expressive team instruction" in a desperate attempt to improve our performance and it seems to have worked for that particular match even if once again our AMC did nothing of note. However our next match is the FA Cup semi-finals against Man City facing them for a 6th time this season (3-0-2 in our favor) and Our current way of playing just isn't gonna cut it against them.

There is something wrong with my AMC and I am not sure what it is but I think it has to do with the way it interacts with the cm-a and the striker. I need to come up with a solution soon so i will give it all a long hard thought before facing off against Guardiola, if nothing comes to mind I will use the midfield diamond that neutralised Tottenham but it is only an experimental tactic and it needs a lot more work put into it.

Edited by Iamarock

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A Beacon of light

After thinking a whole lot about my team and their roles and even wondering if my vision was right to begin with I came to the following conclusion. "my N10 plays badly because he lacks interesting options around him and he lacks interesting options around him because he lacks space to operate on."

both the CMa and the DLF-a play too close to my Ap-s and this damages our way of playing since it is awkward for us to circulate the ball through the centre of the pitch. 

I entered the game with the same roles as as usual DLFa APs and sure enough we struggled to create any chances against City with only 4 shots in 45 minutes and all of them off target.

In the second half now convinced I had found the problem I added the instruction "Be more expressive" and birthed this Tactic:

189628488_TheThirdDream.thumb.png.351159b1ac0e0a3b9b6027018fbc4ede.png

At first I was very hesitant about this since I was playing with no less than 5 attack duties and a positive mentality but as if to prove that fate favors the bold not only was were we able to shoot five more times at goal, 4 of this chances were finally on target and one of them even found the net on the 107th minute. Götze performed much better creating two clear chances with two key passes in 45 minutes.

Even now I cringe at the number of attack duties but even if I change some roles in the future I am now convinced that the way to go is an Afa with an APa. This could very well have been a fluke so further testing is in order, we did lose the possession battle so my next step will be to explore incorporating a DLP-d or lowering the tempo to better accommodate all the movement in the front.

I hope I can write soon about how we have recovered the performance of earlier in the season and how our N10 is now a big part of how we play.

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Loving this thread and I've refrained from posting because I wanted to see how it played out. However, the start of the last post made me smile

Quote

After thinking a whole lot about my team and their roles and even wondering if my vision was right to begin with I came to the following conclusion. "my N10 plays badly because he lacks interesting options around him and he lacks interesting options around him because he lacks space to operate on."

both the CMa and the DLF-a play too close to my Ap-s and this damages our way of playing since it is awkward for us to circulate the ball through the centre of the pitch. 

It's a part of FM I see people struggle with so badly on a daily basis. Yet it's simple but often gets overlooked. The bold bit is kind of a 'penny dropped moment' and once you knew this, you knew how to fix/adapt it and stopped second-guessing yourself. Things seem to have become a lot clearer for you now :)

I can't wait for the next post :)

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Posted (edited)

Under Preassure

After a last minute 1-2 victory over Bielsa's West Ham and a dramatic 3-2 defeat in Portugal against Oporto which saw us win on the away goal after a 1-0 victory in Stamford Bridge I learnt that my main tactic is most vulnerable against direct high pressing teams. My defenders aren't simply good enough to play such a high line against those kinds of teams so When I saw that my Uefa semi finals rival, Young Boys, played a direct high pressing flat 442 I decided to go to the black board and device a way to not only neutralise their threat but also exploit their way of playing.

Anti-pressing.thumb.png.d9d7d417684e36f3905b2af2e120ccc5.png

This also marked the official debut of wonderkid Sandro Tonali who was handpicked to perform as the Half-Back for his PPMs (tries long range passes, brings the ball out of defence, dictates tempo) and some important attributes such as 15 composure, 14 vision and 16 first touch which I consider important to the way we decided to play.

2070789301_Anti-pressing2.thumb.png.b1817620382acd8f7178022ab1e0ae79.png

Our game plan was all about bypassing the press without actually knocking the ball forwards like a maniac while gifting the wide areas of the pitch in exchange for an impregnable area in front of our keep.

I chose this plan because I saw that their best crosser only had a 13 crossing attribute with 14 technique and would cut inside from the wide areas anyways which meant that they were ill suited to exploit Guillaume Hoarau and his towering physique. 

834720393_Dealingwithahighpress.thumb.png.ecd8b6a3fbeed4fdf5ece374a859e4e5.png

Here we can see just why I decide on the roles I did and on Tonali. Young boys have tried to bypass our defensive line and now Kepa has the ball, in my usual tactic the long pass might have worked and Hoarau could have scored but in this match our defenders have intercepted the pass and handed the ball to Kepa. Tonali is dropping deeper as our centre backs are moving wider which creates an easily exploitable 3vs2 with which we can start to build up play. Notice that with giroud and Hazard dropping into the midfield their two central midfielders must leave our own central midfielder free of mark thanks to which our transition into attack is rather smooth.

473364830_Dealingwithahighpress2.thumb.png.c1c348b4b1e54c54559471a1ecc131c9.png

When Kepa passes the ball to one of my deep trio the midfielders and fullback are usually free of mark because we are playing wider and one of their midfielders was covering giroud who is know challenging our opponents high defensive line and who has drawn Kovacic's marker out of position.

In the end we managed to win thanks to a long pass to Morata and a cross to substitute Arp in a convincing victory against a side that would have given me nightmare of a game had I faced them with the 4231.

717671286_Masterclass.png.821db738fa0db87817f0ddabd983c8c0.png

Edited by Iamarock

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Posted (edited)

Sore Victors

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Valeri lobanovsky won the Soviet supreme Title in 1961 playing as a winger for Dynamo Kiev but rather than celebrate he rued how close they had been to disaster and is quoted to have said: "yes we won the league but so what? Sometimes we played badly we just got more points than teams who played worse than us". This is my very feeling after winning the league on the final day in a hard fought game against United.

Many a game during the season could and should have gone the other way and we would ha struggled to even qualify for the Champions League had it not been for Hazard's brilliant solo goals and the opposition strikers giving away many easily won one on ones against Kepa.

The truth is that I can not claim that my 4231 works since I do not have the defenders needed to play so high up the pitch and only recently did I get my AMC to work.

In retrospect this failure to put everything together is understandable, we were trying to play as if all our wonderkids had reached their full potential and I demanded too much from some of my players, I should have been more patient about the whole Dream Team system and try to translate my vision into something playable with my current players but I was so enamored by the little moments of brilliance on the field that I failed to notice for a long time they were not the result of a successful tactic but just anecdotal happenings.

The way forwards

The first thing to work on are corners, throughout the season I was terrified every time my opposition won a corner while we failed to make the most out of our own corners.

The second thing to think of is the 442 diamond. I enjoyed the game the most when I tinkered with it and adapted it against specific teams and ways of playing like I showed against both Tottenham and Young Boys. In the following season I should like to further explore the possibilities of a formation I initially shied away from.

The third thing I must develop is an alternative tactic or a different interpretation of the 4231 to play while my youngsters are developing into the players that will fit my original vision of the 4231.

The final thing to focus on is the acquisition of players that can play the way I want them too instead of making do with what i had as I have tried this season. 

Edited by Iamarock

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Posted (edited)

Proud Victors

If my run in the League has left me dissatisfied with the way we played the later half of our Uefa Cup run is something I take a lot of pride in. After winning 3-0 on aggregate against Young boys and their pressing 442 we would face a very dangerous Frankfurt and their high pressing off line using 433, once again I went for my new found love the 442 diamond and once again I decide to use a halfback + ball playing defender combo to bypass their press but this time I had to find a way to deal with their aggressive offside line.

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against such an aggressive team I went for a low block hoping to hit them on the counter with fast transitions and hoping that my front three roles could make a mess out of their offside line. 

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Our distribution from the back focused more on the sides of the pitch than in previous matches since as you can see here hey overloaded the centre of the pitch with players, Jorginho was constantly marked but the weird decision not to close down on Both Ball playing centre backs at the same time made this potential issue ineffective, had I faced my own side I would have had the AMR close down on christensen and the left and right back go further up the pitch to dissuade Kepa from trying to play wide thus forcing speculative balls against my high defensive line.

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Their failure to prevent us from playing out of the back meant that we could move the ball quickly thanks to our attacking full backs creating advantageous situations in the deepest part of their side of the pitch such as this 5 vs 3 from where our first goal arrived. It is interesting to see their wingback not only fail to press high enough but also fail to track back and how the low block allowed us to win the battle in the wings despite the 2 vs 1 resulting from the formations.

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When they lost the ball in our side of the pitch quick passes to morata cause them problems with this second goal of ours being the most notable of them, here Morata has moved wide pulling no less than three players with him and creating a corridor for Fábregas to run into calmly knocking the ball past their out of place defenders and passing the ball to Götze who scored against an already beaten Kevin Trapp.

One final penalty netted by Hazard sealed a confident win from our part.

 

This thread has accidentally turned into an analysis of different ways of using the 442 diamond despite only being conceived as an experiment for a FA Cup game but I am very proud with these last European games because they are victories born from the system not from moments of genius from our players. I love just how versatile the formation is so I have decided that until my wonderkids develop into the players capable of pulling of my original 4231 I will play this second season using a 442 diamond. I am not sure if I should open a second thread since I am going to be exploring something different from the original purpose of the Topic.

 

 

Edited by Iamarock

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Isn't it a journey to get to your dream team?  This is demonstrating that whilst you have a "goal" in mind you may not be able to apply it (and be successful) straight away and being adaptable to the players you have available and the patience to allow players to develop whilst working towards your goal is sometimes needed.

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Posted (edited)

Two and a half men

What shall we do?

to fill...

the empty...

spaces.

 

I've spent this last few hours eating some churros while I watched the Real Madrid - Athletic Bilbao game. at the end of the first half Real Madrid had dominated the game but had failed to threaten the Basque keeper in a significant way to which an ex-player from Real Madrid exclaimed: "we have played very flat football". This got me thinking about my 442 diamond and the way I wanted them to play and what I needed of my team in order to be successful.

When you look at the formation there are three things that immediately become clear:

1.- This is a top heavy formation

2.- This is a narrow formation

3.- this formation offers a numerical superiority in midfield against most opponents.

Taking this three things into consideration I decided that Chelsea should play vertical attacking football.

My 442 diamond tactics from last season were all reactive, I tailored them to counter the perceived threats of the day and gave very little thought to the way we behaved on the ball beyond how we played from the back. Now I want to make a more proactive tactic and think about how we attack so the first thing I need to do is come up with the strike partnership and their interaction with the AMC.

Because I have always played with wide attacking midfielders and a midfield triangle I had to give a lot of thought to the roles so I went through a process of discarding and got rid of the false 9 ( because I don't think he is meant to have a striker partner) the complete forwards (too universal, I think to specific roles feeding of each other beat  two universal roles) and the trequartista (not having the option to press dissuades me from using him) or the pressing forward ( I think he is more of a situational role to be used against certain sides).

This left me with the Poacher, The Target man, the deep lying Forward and the advanced forward. Or to be more clear my partnership was going to be a combination of P/AF and DLF/TM.

In the end I chose the Advanced Forward because I remembered how my N10 struggled with space in the earlier versions of my 4231 and according to both his description and instructions he was better at creating space than a Poacher.

I then decided on a Deep lying forward on support because I was afraid that a target man would stifle the creativity of my midfield but still wanted a deeper player operating in the space created by the Advanced forward 

Finally I chose an Attacking midfielder on attack duty over a shadow striker because I was not sure I wanted all my front three moving into channels. This leaves me with quite a mobile attacking unit and I believe they compliment each other perfectly:

My advanced forward creates space, my deep lying forward operates in that space creating chances and my attacking midfielder attacks that space from deep leading to a very vertical style of play.

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Diamond Dogs

Come out of the garden, Baby

You'll catch a death in the fog

Young girl, they call the the Diamond dogs

 

With my front three sorted out It was time to focus on my  midfield four. I decided to have the holding creator at the base of the diamond because that way he could make full use of the passing options in front of him. This left me with two midfielders to whom I decided to assign more all around task.

At the the top of the diamond we have the attacking midfielder who will attack the space in front of him thus one of our two central midfielders will have to cover his position, for this I have chosen the BBM with a get further forward instruction, this way we combat the risk of our front three becoming too isolated when the N10 goes forward.

Next to him I have a Ball Winning Midfielder on support who will press on the midfield to alleviate the pressing duties of our midfield creator in the spirit of the Gattuso-Pirlo partnership. I will have to sign this player since I sold Kante during the winter market to United for 70 million pounds.

At the base of the midfield we have a a DLP-d who will be our only holding midfielder and the main creative force of our team. Having the playmaker as our deepest player will also help with possession by giving my other players an easy pass if my opponents block other passing lanes.

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The iron Curtain

Spread your wings and fly away,

fly away

far away

spread your little wings and fly away

far away

 

My back four is much more conventional than in my 4231, two vanilla centre backs and two fullbacks on attack duty.

I chose this role for my side-backs because I want them to provide with going forward but I didn't want them to leave their defensive duties completely unattended. This system demands that my wide players be very complete with both defensive and offensive skills but I don't think I will have to consider bringing in a better players since I have a pair of good balanced players for each side of the pitch.

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Putting it all together

My creation, is it real?

it's my creation, my creation

it's my creation

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I have not yet made a decision on the team instructions, I will tick on "play out of defence" and move on from there.

Edited by Iamarock

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Posted (edited)

The first 90 minutes

The first match of pre season had us facing RC Lens a team that played a deep defensive 4141, which was perfect since it would test our ability to break down a team ready to park the bus.

I decided to go with a balanced mentality and the "play out of defence" team instruction and nothing else just to see how the team behaved.

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It soon became clear to me that my fullbacks needed to play in the wider areas of the pit and that our default width was nowhere near enough so I told my fullbacks to sit wider when we had the ball and to run wide with the ball once we received it. But I was still not entirely satisfied so I turned on "extremely wide" a a team instruction.

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This here was more like it, Marcos Alonso had no problem running up the wing and could now take his time to cross the ball to one of his four partners in the box, additionally our overloading of the box created space in front of it that Azpilicueta could move to should the cross had gone astray, this play ended with Bakayoko scoring.

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Their narrow defence meant my fullbacks could always find space and because of my midfield diamond Lens' midfield could never press my players enough for them to fail to see our incursions from the wide areas of the pitch.

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My front three were creating space in the centre of the pitch as I expected but what I didn't expect was them employing 5 players to deal with them, this meant that the wings were mine to fully exploit at my leisure. 

The play from the back instruction meant that we started with short passes to drive the ball forwards but because I chose not to give them a set passing length my midfielders are always ready to play long passes to the wide areas of the pitch, begging the question: just what exactly are numbers 11, 8 and 10 doing to help the team defend.

In the end we won the game 2-0 thanks to a free kick with only 5 of our 18 shots taken from outside the opponents area despite the fact that our opponent tried to park the bus against us.

 

Not too bad for a pre season match

Edited by Iamarock

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Do any of you know of a guide or thread about setting up corners and othe set pieces? I am clueless when it comes to those things and like I said in a previous post we need to work on those

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34 minutes ago, Iamarock said:

Do any of you know of a guide or thread about setting up corners and othe set pieces? I am clueless when it comes to those things and like I said in a previous post we need to work on those

In my first few seasons I scored a lot of goals from set pieces. I don't know exact number, I wish I kept track, but I would always get the message from my AM to add play for set pieces to take advantage of our good record. I even had a single game where I scored 4 goals from set pieces.

In top league it seems the goals dropped a bit but it's still good. I don't think it's because of my setup, but you could try. For corners I setup  my best jumpers (usually DCs and strikers) to attack far post, attack near post, and attacks ball from the deep. Set one player to challenge the GK, one to lurk outside the area, two fullbacks to stay back, and the rest to go forward. On wide set pieces I keep the default setting, just set one player to attack the far post i think, and one to lurk outside the area. Hope it helps.

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A cursed Cup

We seem to be cursed when it comes to the community shield, which we have lost two times in a row. This time, unlike our painful humiliation in the hands of Man City we were able to not only fight for the trophy but also dominate the game. 

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The attacking mentality makes naturally us play a slightly more direct passing style with a higher tempo which I wanted to use because teams were able to park the bus against us with ease and force us to launch speculative crosses with too much ease.

These here a my team's base instructions when we play, no matter the opponent we will will always use this settings as the core of our style. Additionally I will add depending on the opposition changes to the LOE, D Line and Offside Trap to create three ways of defending.

Against possession oriented teams we play a high LOE and D line with  an offside trap. This way we will force our opponent to deal with the same problem I had to deal with when playing the 4231 against high pressing teams, I have a choice of three tall, Intelligent centre backs who can deal with a direct style of play and shut down isolated forwards with ease.

Against opposition I am not sure about I just play with standard height and see if I can find a way to exploit something in their style of play. This middle block aims to make use of our midfield superiority against wide formations.

Against direct opposition with fast mobile forwards I play the same low block I beat Frankfurt with. This aims to reduce the space the forwards can use while at the same time inviting the  other team to leave space for our front three to exploit.

This such block came into play against Man United during my very first game of the season. Having played the match I could have done even more to shut them down such as targeting Pogba and parking the bus for the final 15 minutes of the game but there is no use in crying over spilled milk. 

 

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Here we can see both the greatest strength and weakness of our formation, their 433 has no way of targeting Jorginho and our front three demands an extra defender in the back line which frees up space for someone in the team to use but out fullbacks open a lot of space and just like I was ready to launch quick attacks on them they were ready to respond in a similar manner, their equaliser came from 3vs2 arising a not dissimilar position almost at the very end of the match.

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Our own goal came when Jorginho gained the ball from Rashford and passed it to Kovacic who found Morata expertly bypassing their back line and passing the ball inside for Lukaku to score an easy one on one against De Gea.

We failed to score a single penalty against De Gea but were very much the better side

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Really enjoyable thread! Whatever direction you go in, very eager for more.

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European super Champions

After a ten man draw against Bielsa's West Ham where I decided to boldly play a high press against them (I went for a low block the moment Jorginho earned himself a red card) I was very happy with the way we both attacked and defended but was a tad unhappy with not having a match to showcase how effective our tactics were being aside from friendlies. Until now.

The European Supercup saw us fight Champions League winners Inter who played a 4231 with DMs, 

I decided to go for a low block and try to hit them on the counter but I was not expecting to dominate them the way we did:

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This here is a depiction of all the passes we intercepted from them and fro reading them we can see one thing clear, they were having trouble getting the ball into dangerous positions from deep. A second less obvious problem they had was the fact that they just couldn't give the ball with their intimidating partnership of James Rodriguez and Icardi. James had to drop deep to receive passes from the wings and Icardi only touched the ball 15 times 8 of them being headers.

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Even if this seems like a mess the message is clear, they were forced to rely on wingplay to attack where they had a natural advantage. This can be seen when we see they with the following revealing statistic, those nine shots they had? here is where they came from:

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When it came to our attack we were able to make a healthy 10 key passes, the one thing they have in common is directness other than that we were quite versatile whhen it came to our passes and the areas we received those passes in:

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I know it looks like a mess but it is rather easy to read, those yellow dots in surrounding the opposition area are the places where our players received a pass, if you are failing to create chances and can't see what is wrong just from looking at the game you should use this analysis tools to better understand what is going on.

Just like Inter's diagram showed they relied heavily on the wings to create chances these two diagrams show an unpredictable pattern of attacks with our chances coming from deep, from the wings and from zone 14 in the way you would expect given how we played (a little less from zone 14 a little more from deep).

One final thing:

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Despite playing a low block these where our average positions, you will notice that we tended to play higher up the pitch than them despite the low block this is because we played on an attacking mentality which meant that for us playing with a low block is roughly the equivalent of a standard D line and LOE for a balanced mentality (and our interceptions helped skew this diagram), this is an important thing to keep in mind when adjusting mentality and out of possession instructions. What in a balance mentality is the equivalent of "sit deep and tight" in an attacking mentality becomes "just be careful with leaving too much space for the strikers, don't go too high up the pitch". 

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Using a high Press

You do not need to look at the first minutes of the match to see how the other team plays and how you should try to counter, before every match I take a look at the manager of my opposition where one can find very important information regarding the style of play of the opponent:

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Here we can see the tactical choices he usually makes and other important information such as their teams mentality, the way they defend and how long their passes will be. In this case I chose a High press because of their bottom heavy formation and the fact that Jokanovic (who played for Chelsea at the start of the century if I remember correctly) like to have his teams play out of defence.

A 442 diamond is an interesting creature when in relation to the high press. On paper such a top heavy formation is ideal for this kind of press but on the other side the lack of people on the wings would mean that there should be an option available there. The first thing that surprised me was our way of implementing the "prevent short goalkeeper distribution":

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Our midfielders have gone higher up the pitch to pair with their centre backs and our front free has moved to the wings ready to apply pressure on the fullbacks and wingers which means that Fabricio must send a Globe to either the wide areas of the pitch or the central midfield beating our press but risking interception.

When in possession Fulham were subjected to an intense pressure that allowed us to wing the ball back and win the possession battle:

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Here our pressing has cut down all posible passes (30-23, 28-9, 18-24, 19-4, 3&6-7 and 6&8-20) so there are only two options left for number 7, the right fullback who is in an innocuous position or a long complicated pass under pressure to the left wingback. We even have two spare players ready to pose another challenge should the fulham player dribble past his marker. This pressure from our side translated into roughly 70 intercepted passes and 35 tackles won. 

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Our attack was the same as always. fulham defended narrow to deal with our front three and not leave the centre backs with a 3vs2 so our fullbacks had the wide areas of the pitch to themselves and sooner rather than later a cross found its way home.  When they lost the ball in the middle of the pitch our AF would chase a ball into space and try to make something out of it but in this particular match this was not successful.

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Brexit has happenned in my save and the Premier now runs on a maximum number of Foreign players system which has ruined my squad of only 4 english players. It will take me forever to bring a team of acceptable players under these conditions so I have decided to start a new save with Bayern Munich since it already has a ready made squad for the style I want to play and they  happen to have a great academy and be wealthy and prestigious enough to poach the best talent in the world.

I am sorry if any Chelsea supporter wanted to see my dream team play on chelsea shirts but this was probably the worst Brexit my Team could have suffered.

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All wrong, all wrong.

After my dissatisfaction with my implementation of my ideal and my foray into the 442 diamond I was once again facing the challenge of building a system based on my archetypes. I decided to get rid of my previous tactic and start from nothing in an attempt to skip my previous mistakes and look at things from a fresh perspective. Where did I go so wrong that the highlights of the season came from ignoring the system in favor of a different tactic? Why couldn't my team play like in my vision?

Looking at my first Chelsea season with new eyes I can see where I went wrong, I obsessed over my 11 archetypes and disobeyed the very first rule I had established. " Choose the best player for each position and you end up not with a strong eleven but with 11 strong 1s". I was trying to form a system out of eleven players rather than find the eleven players needed for my system. I remembered what a teacher of mine once told me: "I always tell students to check their essays in search for spelling mistakes but when it is my turn to do so I always tell myself I was careful not to make them in the first place". In this second attempt at building my dream team I will take a different approach and develop the players into the archetypes I want to see in the pitch after having a tried and tested system. I will also add a self imposed handicapped and sign only U20 german players, to once again avoid signing the usual suspects. 

 

The Phoenix

After a long period of procrastination and thinking about just how I would like my team to play a memory came to my mind. It was a game from almost a decade ago, Spain's historic 1-0 domination over Germany in South Africa. At times the spaniards were simply perfect, playing a narrow, short passing carrousel that swept the germans away and employing an aggressive high press to regain possession before Klose and podolski could receive a pass. I decide to take inspiration from that side and try to develop a short passing and high pressing 4231.

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I intentionally went for a very fluid combination of roles so that my team would gain a greater cohesion. 

SKa= I believe that playing a short passing game high up the pitch demands an aggressive sweeper keeper, 

Ws= the "Generic" role, as I observe the tactic this role might change but for now I will rely on my team's mentality as the main factor fueling their attacking intent.

CDd= again a pretty standard role.

DLPs= my playmaker, he should be the guy with the greatest number of touches on the ball and must be up to the task being our midfield orchestrator.

cms= another role that may vary, for now I have gone for the default midfield role to see how things work out.

IFs= for now all I know is that I want my wide midfielders to cut inside so I went for an inside forward, I might try an AP in the future.

AMs= the role has no instructions which means that (along with my TIs) it is up to the player I place here how he interprets his duties.

CFs= I don't like using a CF but the DLPs and F9 are probably not aggressive enough for what I want to play, plus they will take space from my n10. 

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Attacking mentality: 2010 spain was a very cautious side that liked to dwell on possession as a means of indirect defense and attrition of the opponent but I want to go for a more goal hungry side, this might go down to positive if I feel attacking is too high.

Much Shorter Passing:  the key instruction when playing with the secondary goal of dominating possession.

Lower Tempo: I was debating between this and "work ball into the box", both of them would be overkill so I will first try this one and switch to the other if I don't like what I see.

Narrow: makes us more compact which helps with the shorter passing.

Take short kicks + distribute to centre backs/fullbacks: a combination of instruction to help us build from deep

Higher DL/LOE: I might change this to "Much higher" but I don't trust the extreme options in the tactics setting too much, only praxis will tell.

More urgent: passive pressing and a high DL is, in my opinion, an incoherent choice.

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Evolution

By paying close attention to our pre season friendlies I decided to add several new  team instructions that have helped the team perform:

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Pass into space: we were lacking penetration so I switched it on and it has helped our attack an awful lot

Overlap left/right: I was unhappy with the movement of our wingbacks so I told my team to overlap the flanks in an attempt to make them go higher up the pitch, it has worked.

Work ball into box: in the second half of our intrasquad friendly I ticked off the lower tempo and switched on this instruction creating better chances for us than before.

Use tighter marking: this instruction was chosen to help us with our press.

Prevent short GK distribution: I noticed that  we were allowing our opponents to play from the back unopposed. 

additionally I told both my wingbacks to Stay Wider and my AMs to Get further forwards, move into channels and Take more risks.

 

Our German Supercup game went quite well for us, the opening phase was a bit chaotic and we didn't quite dominate possession during the game (pass into space seems to be the one to blame) but we were able to reduce them to 5 single shots against us. One problem we came up against was the high number of long speculative shots (roughly 50% of our attempts) and the fact that when one of players managed to get into a good scoring position he was immediately closed down by one or more opponents. In the end they only managed to score from a lucky corner while we immediately equalised from a nice combination of passes culminating in Müller scoring from inside the box. After that we won on penalties.

I am still looking to make some more changes, I am happy with our high press but there may be some issues when we have the ball, or it may have been just this match since we dominated our friendlies against similar or better opposition. The early parts of the season will tell.

 

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A hiatus

We'll meet again

don't know where

don't know when

but I know we'll meet again

some sunny day

 

After a 1-0 victory in the german cup from our opponents own goal, after scoring seven out of eight goals from set pieces and after my changes caused us to play worse both in possession and out of it I am burnt, I can't properly recreate my vision and it is time for me to move on. I have decided to focus on a different topic that has been roaming around my mind since the 442 diamond.

During the summer, when I am fresher and have more time and patience I will return to my 4231 and by then I will hopefully come closer to my ideal. Thank you all for reading my posts and sorry for the hiatus but if I am not having fun with this save and it is becoming a source of frustration for me I refuse to continue at the moment.

 

Why do you go away? So that you can come back. So that you can see the place you came from with new eyes and extra colors.

And the people there see you differently, too. Coming back is not the same as never leaving

Terry Pratchett 

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Posted (edited)

Nice read mate. :) The game can be frustrating, I understand your pain.

Edited by Armistice

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A good first half

Despite our initial failure to play convincing football this first half of the season has gone quite well for us:

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We did lose some steam towards december with a few late goal victories but this was success when you compare it to our early matches. This has been so largely thanks to my attempt at taking some lessons from the current Ajax tactic to come up with the following deep 4231:

4231.thumb.png.b6c4ca0c36eda5003f1143165b083dcc.png

Like I said this tactic was born from a desire to replicate the Ajax build up from deep. I have signed a great number of promising youngsters to add to Bayern's already enviable talent pool and many of them are playing on the first team thanks to a focus on heavy rotation with no one player being fielded for more than three matches in a row. The halfback drops between the defenders to help build up in a similar way as De Jong does for Ajax and acts as the deepest midfielder when we are camped in the opponent's half. The AMs has the "get further forwards" individual instruction and (inspired by the brilliant "Developing my 4123DMWide" thread) I had the front four pressing more and marking thighter. I honestly can't remember the reason for the BPDco but as the americans say: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

We are dominating possession and number of chances generated but Lewandowski is a bit inconsistent, he will either score a Hat trick or not score at all, Arp is yet to reach his level and Müller is playing on the right, especially now that Robben has left (he was not happy with the number of rotations). I also got rid of Raphina and Javi Martinez since they were taking minutes away from my youngsters, not the smartest decision for the present since they are better than my youngsters but I do think this is the way to ensure the best possible future for the team as a whole.

With the youth intake growing nearer I will soon talk about my prospects and how I intend to turn them into players capable of playing like 2010 spain

Again, this tactic has lost some effectiveness (I am pretty sure the AI adapts to your tactics) but thanks to it I was able to go on a ten match unbeaten run and breeze through a Champions Group against Man UTD, Roma and Celtic with two matches to spare.

 

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