Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
KI Heynckes

Please change how mentality works or how AI managers behave

Recommended Posts

As I stated multiple times now, I think it's very annoying and unrealistic how AI managers behave when they are strong underdogs. They play on Defensive mentality, which would be understandable. But not when this means, that basically 50% of total possession happens to be them passing the ball around in their half. I can show you multiple screenshots of games like this, where I with Leipzig as a favourite have sub-45% possession, even though I play on Positive mentality and try to press them as high as I can and force them to play long balls. But they can just chill and pass the ball around.

Please watch real life football. I recently saw an analysis of PSG vs. I think Marseille and one bad staggering in their build-up phase forced PSG (!!!) to play a long ball after they got pressed. When you watch underdogs versus Bayern or against the Top 6 in the BPL, this keeping the ball strategy isn't what they do. They sit back, and when they get the ball they go for quick transitions, trying to hit there players out of position. Theoretically this kind of low mentality with defensive roles (I see  4-1-4-1s with a DM, DLP and BWM in the midfield-three pretty often) is meant to replicate this kind of strategy. But it just doesn't. These teams can play the ball through their lines like Tiki Taka Barcelona with players that have questionable technical attributes and when getting pressed by players like Werner and Poulsen, who are absolute beasts against the ball.

I'm not stupid, I know this won't be changed for FM19 anymore, but I really hope developers read this and think about this programming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for raising this point. You're not the first person to say this and it is something we are aware of. 

It's quite a complicated thing to fix/balance - there are a number of different reasons that lead to the outcome of defensive teams having more possession in games. Player Roles, Manager Attributes, Team Mentality are just some of the few and these vary game to game. It's also not the case in every game played, top teams can dominate the ball against weaker defensive opposition in some matches. This makes it slightly harder to test, but again it's something we are keen to represent better in FM20.

Can I ask, if you were faced against weaker opposition and they defended with 9/10 players behind the ball and your team found them difficult to break down. Would you find this realistic or frustrating? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm really happy that you guys yourself already noticed this and this isn't something you hear the first time. I was unsure, because when I first brought this up in the Tactics forum multiple long time users acted like this was total stupidity by me.

Most certainly, I'd feel like this would be way more realistic, and also more challenging. Right now all you can do is playing on Very Attacking and with more Attacking duties that I could have ever imagined using and to try breaking these teams down. You can do this, because these teams when having the ball don't try to exploit any spaces you give them with these tactical setups. But in real life this is all what these underdogs try to do basically. 

When you look at this matches in real life, the favorite most of the time has around 65% possession. I think the problem basically is, that pressing in FM only is ball oriented, so when I try to press this teams to death with my tactical set up for example my two strikers run to the player who has the ball, but obviously because of this, other players are unmarked and like this they can generate this absurd possession numbers. In real life the pressing team rather tries to mark every player that would be available for a short pass and forces a long ball. I hope this gets addressed too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for your feedback, 

We will look to implement this is a future iteration as we are always looking to improve the game,

Cheers,

Hugo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 16/04/2019 at 23:37, CJ Ramson said:

Can I ask, if you were faced against weaker opposition and they defended with 9/10 players behind the ball and your team found them difficult to break down. Would you find this realistic or frustrating? 

Sorry but that has nothing to do with it. The issue is pressing in the game. Defensive teams are able to knock the ball around at the back because multiple players press the ball in high press systems. This always leaves other defenders free to keep knocking the ball around. What should happen is usually 1 forward goes the ball and others cut off passing options to the other defenders. You've completely missed the point as the issue has nothing to do with how many men defend behind the ball. 

Edited by NabsKebabs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 23/04/2019 at 18:29, Hugo Mendes Albino said:

Thanks for your feedback, 

We will look to implement this is a future iteration as we are always looking to improve the game,

Cheers,

Hugo

I think the is the biggest ME issue in the game currently and explains why Man City seem to underperform so much in the game. It would be absolutely fantastic for the game if this gets sorted. 

Edited by NabsKebabs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 16/04/2019 at 17:37, CJ Ramson said:

Thank you for raising this point. You're not the first person to say this and it is something we are aware of. 

It's quite a complicated thing to fix/balance - there are a number of different reasons that lead to the outcome of defensive teams having more possession in games. Player Roles, Manager Attributes, Team Mentality are just some of the few and these vary game to game. It's also not the case in every game played, top teams can dominate the ball against weaker defensive opposition in some matches. This makes it slightly harder to test, but again it's something we are keen to represent better in FM20.

Can I ask, if you were faced against weaker opposition and they defended with 9/10 players behind the ball and your team found them difficult to break down. Would you find this realistic or frustrating? 

defensive tactics with men behind ball usually combine with quick and direct attacking style in real life. but in FM lower mentality displays too possessional nature and when it's coupled with extra man in midfield like it happens with some defensive formations, such teams can keep the ball too easily then. on the other hand attacking tactics are too direct and urgent when played against defensive tacics so what happens on the pitch is opposite to what it should be.  part of the issue is that attacking tactics combine too urgent mentality + aggressive roles/duties + aggressive TIs which is unnessesary and this basic tactical principle hasn't been touched for long time now. i think urgency displayed by both mentality ends is questionable if it reflects real life football well. playing safe doesn't mean keeping the ball at the back and controlling possession in opponents half is risky style which needs more patient build-up.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the feedback, apologies for the delayed replies;

On 16/04/2019 at 20:41, KI Heynckes said:

When you look at this matches in real life, the favorite most of the time has around 65% possession. I think the problem basically is, that pressing in FM only is ball oriented, so when I try to press this teams to death with my tactical set up for example my two strikers run to the player who has the ball, but obviously because of this, other players are unmarked and like this they can generate this absurd possession numbers. In real life the pressing team rather tries to mark every player that would be available for a short pass and forces a long ball. I hope this gets addressed too.

This is something we are aware of again and we will hopefully be able to improve the pressing in the future. Agreed, it was ball orientated which leads to the defensive teams being able to keep the ball in their own third longer than they would in real life. Unfortunately it's one of the most difficult things to tweak in the match engine. But it is something we are certainly working on.

On 04/05/2019 at 04:16, NabsKebabs said:

Sorry but that has nothing to do with it. The issue is pressing in the game. Defensive teams are able to knock the ball around at the back because multiple players press the ball in high press systems. This always leaves other defenders free to keep knocking the ball around. What should happen is usually 1 forward goes the ball and others cut off passing options to the other defenders. You've completely missed the point as the issue has nothing to do with how many men defend behind the ball. 

It was a side question about how teams defend off the ball. The reply stated pressing is not the only reason for defensive teams having high possession, because there are numerous matches where the stronger team presses weaker opposition, leading to make making mistakes and having much lower possession. We are very much aware of the original point - however, it is not as simple as 'fixing the pressing' as teams also keep possession due to them having more options in deeper positions due to less risks taken and less forward runs. Pressing itself has many complications as there are pressing triggers, traps set to make a team play to the inside/outside, half court/full court, blocking of passing lines and many other variations of pressing to get balanced. But this is something we are working on within QA but it is understandably not a simple issue to code into a complex match engine.

On 04/05/2019 at 10:20, Mitja said:

defensive tactics with men behind ball usually combine with quick and direct attacking style in real life. but in FM lower mentality displays too possessional nature and when it's coupled with extra man in midfield like it happens with some defensive formations, such teams can keep the ball too easily then. on the other hand attacking tactics are too direct and urgent when played against defensive tacics so what happens on the pitch is opposite to what it should be.  part of the issue is that attacking tactics combine too urgent mentality + aggressive roles/duties + aggressive TIs which is unnessesary and this basic tactical principle hasn't been touched for long time now. i think urgency displayed by both mentality ends is questionable if it reflects real life football well. playing safe doesn't mean keeping the ball at the back and controlling possession in opponents half is risky style which needs more patient build-up.  

This is something that we tried to reflect in the Tactical Styles. However, when it comes to AI Managers we sometimes have the issue you highlighted. One or two misplaced instructions or roles can skew how the team plays. So keeping this consistent and realistic is something we'd like to improve in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have any problem getting the ball off opposition defenders and actually charge keepers down too much, but then I'm rarely a favourite and max out pressing as well as having two hardworking strikers. I actually have more issue with how rare it is the AI bothers to press defensive players on the ball, because on the rare occasions I do encounter an AI side that's set up to press I find dominating the game a lot less easy...

That's actually the opposite problem from the OP's, but one match engine enhancement that would help both is a bit more distinction between defenders who are very good on the ball and defenders who aren't (the latter should make more mistakes and hoof more than they do, but also should be more likely to be targeted for [counter]presses in the ME than skilled players even when manager instructions have pressing turned down low). A consequence would be that Pique could still keep the ball off you all game in a defensive setup but Chris Smalling couldn't... )

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 16/04/2019 at 17:37, CJ Ramson said:

Can I ask, if you were faced against weaker opposition and they defended with 9/10 players behind the ball and your team found them difficult to break down. Would you find this realistic or frustrating? 

I found teams like Burnley or AI manager with high Defend coaching stats do both. Sit back with 9/10 defending, and when they get the ball they chills for half an hour. That even doubles the frustration

Edited by loivang_quangduc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vor 6 Stunden schrieb loivang_quangduc:

I found teams like Burnley or AI manager with high Defend coaching stats do both. Sit back with 9/10 defending, and when they get the ball they chills for half an hour. That even doubles the frustration

Yeah and that's what's annoying me the most, in rl they'll just try to hit the opponent over the top as often as possible, no long consolidation phases, epecially versus vastly superior teams.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi All, 

We are going to have a look at how we can improve this issue.

This issue will most likely be due to the pressing functionality. 

Please could you have a look through your save and send any PKM where this problem was happening, so we can analyze the problem and see where we can improve. This would be really helpful.

 

Thanks for your co-operation

Jemal

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 17/05/2019 at 18:49, enigmatic said:

I don't have any problem getting the ball off opposition defenders and actually charge keepers down too much, but then I'm rarely a favourite and max out pressing as well as having two hardworking strikers. I actually have more issue with how rare it is the AI bothers to press defensive players on the ball, because on the rare occasions I do encounter an AI side that's set up to press I find dominating the game a lot less easy...

That's actually the opposite problem from the OP's, but one match engine enhancement that would help both is a bit more distinction between defenders who are very good on the ball and defenders who aren't (the latter should make more mistakes and hoof more than they do, but also should be more likely to be targeted for [counter]presses in the ME than skilled players even when manager instructions have pressing turned down low). A consequence would be that Pique could still keep the ball off you all game in a defensive setup but Chris Smalling couldn't... )

And plus in real game a closed team suffers a lot the amount of pressure that an attack team does. 

 

I don't think that if barca is losing 1¬0 his mister says:" hey guys less pressure less close down  play carefully  don't take too much risk make them comes up". 

 

 

I think that Guardiola could tell them to take more risk to dribble more to make more runs on the full back to make the ball go around fast. This not means direct pass but more movements without the ball and short pass style but with an higher tempo. This does not work on fm19. 

 

I have also strikers witch decision, finalization and composure miss incredible goal and on the other hand IA strikers with less concentration etc. One shoot one goal. This is frustrating. Also lot of  shoot on the post. Here one example. IMG-20190528-WA0105.thumb.jpeg.69ad5b3d5d1de60a3c24e5a47c552520.jpeg

 

IMG-20190528-WA0103.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a great topic. I have noticed this too, but just assumed it was something I was going wrong with the tactics. I have played my first season with Bayern, often against weaker teams, so used a positive or attacking mentality, possession football, high pressing, and yet in most of these games, even though I often won them and created a lot more chances, the weaker team had more possession, or a similar amount. I agree, that this isn't the way it goes in real life. Most dominant teams, particularly those who like to keep the ball and build plays, have far more possession than their opponent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 17/05/2019 at 17:29, CJ Ramson said:

Thanks for the feedback, apologies for the delayed replies;

This is something we are aware of again and we will hopefully be able to improve the pressing in the future. Agreed, it was ball orientated which leads to the defensive teams being able to keep the ball in their own third longer than they would in real life. Unfortunately it's one of the most difficult things to tweak in the match engine. But it is something we are certainly working on.

It was a side question about how teams defend off the ball. The reply stated pressing is not the only reason for defensive teams having high possession, because there are numerous matches where the stronger team presses weaker opposition, leading to make making mistakes and having much lower possession. We are very much aware of the original point - however, it is not as simple as 'fixing the pressing' as teams also keep possession due to them having more options in deeper positions due to less risks taken and less forward runs. Pressing itself has many complications as there are pressing triggers, traps set to make a team play to the inside/outside, half court/full court, blocking of passing lines and many other variations of pressing to get balanced. But this is something we are working on within QA but it is understandably not a simple issue to code into a complex match engine.

This is something that we tried to reflect in the Tactical Styles. However, when it comes to AI Managers we sometimes have the issue you highlighted. One or two misplaced instructions or roles can skew how the team plays. So keeping this consistent and realistic is something we'd like to improve in the future.

@KI Heynckes @CJ Ramson

Wrong, It's the tactics

Please don't DUMB DOWN A.I. 

I've played against defensive teams, and had more possession.

To defeat a team that breaks down you have to 

1. Stretch Opponent Out

2. Use Extremely Attacking Wing-Backs

2. Play Quick Tempo, Direct Passing, Wide Attacking Shape, Quick Crossing

To Defend and Maintain Possession

1. 2 Holding CMs

2. Wide defensive shape, High Press, Hard Tackling, Prevent Short GK Distribution 

Instructions 

Attacking Shape: Wide, Highest Tempo & Highest Pass Directioness (direct passing)

Stretch the opponent wide, and get through them with high tempo and direct passing 

Defensive Shape: Wide, High Press, Hard Tackle, Prevent Short GK Distribution  

Keep defensive shape wide, and press hard and tackle hard to reduce counter attacks and gain more possesision

Formation Shape

Use 2 CBS 

Use WBR (ATT), WBR (ATT)

Use CM (Defend), CM (Defend)

Use AML (ATT), AMR (ATT)

Use ST (Poacher), ST (Poacher)

 

I'm Manchester City (BLUE TEAM) .

image.thumb.png.b8400f16b76fb53a2972fcdf975cbe85.pngimage.thumb.png.869bb47da20181c59f0f324f34703bdf.png

Edited by kingking

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

These types of threads is why FM is going to fail for me, FM is going downhill tbh

Everyone wants fm to be easy, everyone wants to dumb down A.I, everyone wants to be able to dominate every match 

even top teams can struggle against teams that park the bus.

you need to change your formation and tactic to gain high possession and break down the team

Edited by kingking

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, kingking said:

These types of threads is why FM is going to fail for me, FM is going downhill tbh

Everyone wants fm to be easy, everyone wants to dumb down A.I, everyone wants to be able to dominate every match 

even top teams can struggle against teams that park the bus.

you need to change your formation and tactic to gain high possession and break down the team

I think the main problem is not when a human plays against the A.I. , good players can achieve high possession numbers - if they want to - regardless of the opponents' mentality, because we can adapt. It is more about how AI performs vs A.I. If you look at the possession statistics of the league you play in (or a favourite A.I vs an underdog A.I match), there is a good chance that it does not represent the big clubs' dominance realistically in terms of possession. In my saves many of the top clubs that are known for their dominance in possession (Barcelona, Bayern, City, PSG) in real life, in FM they often only have it around 50-52%. (Altough I know FM calculates possession differently compared to real life, but it still should be higher)

I also noticed that in FM it happens quite often (or at least more often than it should) that the team with the lower passing accuracy can have the higher numbers in possession, which is interesting and I think it can indicate that something might be wrong, because in real life I have never seen an example where the team with the lower passing accuracy possess the ball more.

I have a feeIing that the main cause of this may be related to pressing, but I also think that it may worth taking a revision on how the A.I. managers' attributes, tendencies, preferred mentalities, etc. are connected to the ME. I can't see what under the hood is, but I think that in FM real life managers that produce high numbers of possession are often described as attacking managers who tend to use higher mentalites, and that in itself would not be a problem, but if this high risk mentality is not compensated somehow (for example with the use of lower tempo, use of support duty roles, etc), than that also may cause problems in representing real-lifevstatistics. From an other perspective, if a Sean Dyche-like manager is represented in FM as a defensive manager, than it should be compensated with higher tempo, and a tendency to use more structured set-up. My scout reports on oppositions always tell me that they play with a normal tempo, and that suggests me that tempo may not be included in a manager's profile, only passing directness? I think you should either compensate for the mentalities, or rethink what mentality you give to A.I. managers to represent their real-life counterpart.

I am really glad and supportive to the FM staff that they recognize that something is not right and working towards to fixing it.
 

Edited by cocoadavid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, cocoadavid said:

I think the main problem is not when a human plays against the A.I. , good players can achieve high possession numbers - if they want to - regardless of the opponents' mentality, because we can adapt. It is more about how AI performs vs A.I. If you look at the possession statistics of the league you play in (or a favourite A.I vs an underdog A.I match), there is a good chance that it does not represent the big clubs' dominance realistically in terms of possession. In my saves many of the top clubs that are known for their dominance in possession (Barcelona, Bayern, City, PSG) in real life, in FM they often only have it around 50-52%. (Altough I know FM calculates possession differently compared to real life, but it still should be higher)

I also noticed that in FM it happens quite often (or at least more often than it should) that the team with the lower passing accuracy can have the higher numbers in possession, which is interesting and I think it can indicate that something might be wrong, because in real life I have never seen an example where the team with the lower passing accuracy possess the ball more.

I have a feeIing that the main cause of this may be related to pressing, but I also think that it may worth taking a revision on how the A.I. managers' attributes, tendencies, preferred mentalities, etc. are connected to the ME. I can't see what under the hood is, but I think that in FM real life managers that produce high numbers of possession are often described as attacking managers who tend to use higher mentalites, and that in itself would not be a problem, but if this high risk mentality is not compensated somehow (for example with the use of lower tempo, use of support duty roles, etc), than that also may cause problems in representing real-lifevstatistics. From an other perspective, if a Sean Dyche-like manager is represented in FM as a defensive manager, than it should be compensated with higher tempo, and a tendency to use more structured set-up. My scout reports on oppositions always tell me that they play with a normal tempo, and that suggests me that tempo may not be included in a manager's profile, only passing directness? I think you should either compensate for the mentalities, or rethink what mentality you give to A.I. managers to represent their real-life counterpart.

I am really glad and supportive to the FM staff that they recognize that something is not right and working towards to fixing it.
 

I agree that SI needs to fix this problem about AI managers and there tactics

Top teams and there managers should be seeing a higher possession percentage against teams that park the bus.

There are many issues that have not been fixed in FM that have been reported since FM 2015

Dont get your hopes up, SI will not fix this one anytime soon

 

Edited by kingking

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/06/2019 at 14:48, cocoadavid said:

I have a feeIing that the main cause of this may be related to pressing, but I also think that it may worth taking a revision on how the A.I. managers' attributes, tendencies, preferred mentalities, etc. are connected to the ME. I can't see what under the hood is, but I think that in FM real life managers that produce high numbers of possession are often described as attacking managers who tend to use higher mentalites, and that in itself would not be a problem, but if this high risk mentality is not compensated somehow (for example with the use of lower tempo, use of support duty roles, etc), than that also may cause problems in representing real-lifevstatistics. From an other perspective, if a Sean Dyche-like manager is represented in FM as a defensive manager, than it should be compensated with higher tempo, and a tendency to use more structured set-up. My scout reports on oppositions always tell me that they play with a normal tempo, and that suggests me that tempo may not be included in a manager's profile, only passing directness? I think you should either compensate for the mentalities, or rethink what mentality you give to A.I. managers to represent their real-life counterpart.

I am really glad and supportive to the FM staff that they recognize that something is not right and working towards to fixing it.
 

I think it is a mix of both of these issues. The pressing is something I commented numerous time (also in this thread) we are working hard to improve. It certainly makes a more noticeable difference in AI v AI matches. Another side of this is the manager instructions and tendencies. I am not critiquing the researchers at all but sometimes if the attributes don't match how they should play in the Match Engine this can lead to AI Manager issues.

On 11/06/2019 at 23:47, kingking said:

There are many issues that have not been fixed in FM that have been reported since FM 2015

Dont get your hopes up, SI will not fix this one anytime soon

 

There are also many issues that have been reported and fixed since FM 2015 :D If you have any further suggestions on how we could further improve this or any other issue please let us know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see some people always want to defend this game and blame the player, when there is an issue. In this case I think you need to be fair and say, it isn't about setting up the tactics from, there is something wrong with coding. This possession thing is becoming very noticeable to me, the more I play. 

I just had an away game against a much stronger team. I set up to play defensively, on the counter attack (i.e not possession football, just aim to attack as soon as I get the chance with as few touches as possible). I still ended up having more possession than them, even though had had far more shots on goal. I think it is well known that if you play counter attacking football, you tend to have less possession. It's specific system set up to play against teams who hold a lot of possession.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...