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beverage1982

Creating focal point - How i got my striker scoring in a 4141

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11 minutes ago, CJ_Randell said:

Can you add your PI’s or a link to the tactic? Also any OI’s you use? 

Not that kind of thread am afraid. It's more of a conversation starter than a how to.

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1 hour ago, beverage1982 said:

As the title suggests the whole tactic is about getting Abraham to score the majority of goals which is why I have focussed on getting as many avenues to getting assists for him as possible. Just look at the tactic. The wingers can cross to him or cut inside and open up space for a FB to cross to him. Grealish can play a through ball, or McGinn can play a through ball or get into the area to free up space for Abraham. Set pieces have also been designed to use his height and heading prowess. 

Extremely well thought out system. You have looked at your players studied their roles and gone on to design a system around them. Just don't forget to incorporate their traits.

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5 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Extremely well thought out system. You have looked at your players studied their roles and gone on to design a system around them. Just don't forget to incorporate their traits.

That's actually been one of the challenges, particularly with McGinn as he has 'comes deep to get the ball'

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1 minute ago, beverage1982 said:

That's actually been one of the challenges, particularly with McGinn as he has 'comes deep to get the ball'

Not sure where his playing but there are ways around that.

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4 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Not sure where his playing but there are ways around that.

He's my mezzala. It's not awful. Actually helps with buildup at times.

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Actually it is awful, think about it. Mezzala will go wide with the ball, now he starts from a deeper position to receive the ball. Then think about all the attributes he needs, now add players around him to carry the ball. Final step think of the traits that may help him. If you want him to score goals which my Mezzala does almost every week, then you need another set of traits.  In the long run you could have two players with different traits to give you a different dynamic. Not awful when you want to keep the ball, but awful in that he doesn't bang the net as much

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1 hour ago, Cleon said:

I'm sure if @herne79 was to use a Mez too, he'd set the roles up around it differently to both me and Rashidi.

If we all did the same thing it would be terribly boring :D.

As the old boy said above: "In the long run you could have two players with different traits to give you a different dynamic", which is spot on.

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@beverage1982 Great write up.

What sticks out for me is the variety of attacking play I imagine you get.  Too often we see people being quite one dimensional with that sort of formation - 2 x IFs or 2 x Wingers with attacking wingbacks and whatnot.  And having a support duty striker.  Your "fullbacks" are different; your wide men are different, variety in central midfield and someone up top capable of being both a direct goal threat and bringing others into play.

It'll be interesting to see how you improve your squad going into the EPL :thup:.

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Posted (edited)

There are some similarities with the approach I took with ManU when it comes to tactics and role. Tactics are very similiar except I have much lower tempo and higher pressing intensity. I use De Ligt and Lindelöf as 2x BPD, Grimaldo as CWB(s) and Eder Militao FB(s) in defense, midfield 3 is Ndombele, Milinkovic-Savic, Pogba, usually DPM(s), B2B and AP(s or a), wingers are Richarlison and Chiesa as IF(a) and W(s) and Lukaku is TM(s).

 

Lukaku has scored roughly a goal per 90 minutes but Rashford as an AF "only" has about a goal per 130 minutes if I remember correctly (despite on average playing easier matches) and Schick as a CF(s) struggles to score even more, although he does get a decent amount of assists. The AF based on what I've read seems to be a very popular option for a striker role in almost all formations, but in this formation I think it leaves him pretty isolated. I'm thinking of trying Milinkovic-Savic as something else than a B2B because he has the lowest average rating from my starting XI with only about 7,25 and surprisingly few goals or assists. I'd like him to be more involved with things in the final third and provide support when I'm using Rashford up top. Maybe a CM(A) with moves into channels, haven't figured that part out yet.

Edited by Puluzu

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5 hours ago, Cleon said:

I think this is a bit of a sweeping statement and doesn't really have any validity to it. My Mez has comes deep to get the ball and it's not a hindrance at all. So to tell the poster its awful and he needs another set of traits for him to be a regular scorer is just plain wrong. I mean, these are my Mez who have the traits. In your current save your Mez only has 3 goals after 17 games. He didn't score a lot the season before either, only scoring 9 in 35 games according to your video.

5.png.5137a556a849d6a412b131027a371511.p

6.png.42cc3f993d18d61aa53748b58b84c94c.p

As you can see, they score plenty of goals and have the traits you deemed awful. If you check my Create a Tactic thread, you'll see that the players without the trait still score as many goals as these guys and that it's not been a hindrance at all. The average goals per season are around 16 for whoever plays the Mez and none of them take freekicks. 

@beverage1982 A really good post, I like how you're really breaking stuff down and know exactly what you need from the players. Just even the little change to the wingers you mentioned, you made the change to get a very specific behaviour from them. I like this kind of thinking and you've simplified things. I'm looking forward to seeing what you do in the next post..............

Awful is a personal evaluation based on how i see mine playing. In my system which is very similar to the op's I expect my mezzala on attack duty to be an important link in the final phase of attack. In fact, I would expect him to draw players away or even arrive late to score goals. If you are camping then the comes deep trait is irrelevant, but because my style of play is usually attacking and very attacking, I don't want my Mezzala to come deep as there will be other players to do that. In a 4123 one would have a DM and a RPM much like mine, so there are enough players to link the defence to midfield. Having the Mezzala drop back does affect his natural ability to stretch a team has he is hardcoded to go wide. Now if he comes deep then we need to lay the ball off, he then needs to get up the pitch in a hurry. Here the attack duty is helping him. Personally speaking, i have had mezzala's with the comes deep and i have always preferred those without, in fact, i prefer the "arrives late in opposition area" trait, so that after building up play he gets into the box.

The mezzala by virtue of his role will do that since he moves into channels, but having the comes deep usually means that I need more attributes like work rate determination, acceleration and stamina. So yeah, its a personal choice here which is why i think its awful. So far I've been very happy with how the Mezzala plays and its good to see many different ways of playing roles in the game. And there shouldn't be a cookie cutter approach to playing this game where we are forced into picking specific kinds of players for roles. Ultimately the vision of the creator is important. Mezzala's can be potent goal scoring threats, and they are also probably one of the most effective roles to use in systems where you need central midfielders going wide to help you stretch defences, draw players onto them before using their natural flair to unlock them, or even go in to score goals.

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To explain further, this is my mezzala's positioning during the consolidation phase..the start at least, you can see how he is slightly further away. The ball works its way back to the middle and I DO NOT WANT HIM TO DROP DEEP here because it will just mean that the play may go around the left...

.Mezza1.thumb.jpg.b8a61fbf6bb9387b53f3543640c96389.jpg

Mezzal2.thumb.jpg.638b4d5ee0bcf95fd171f380a8b8f909.jpg

The ball goes back to the central defender, if my mezza had comes deep then he will drop deeper to receive the ball, instead he moves further away, the ball then works its way back to the right which is what i want to see.

1282114385_Mezzal3.thumb.jpg.252427d4c6475294fdb61ba3098ce2a8.jpg

It ends up on the right wing, the mezzala now joins the attack.

Mezza4.thumb.jpg.97375d558b1f1ec084ce9e1fc22fe33b.jpg

And ends up arriving in the opposition box to score. This is why in my system which is very similar to the OP's it will depend entirely on how he wants to create goal scoring chances. In my system if he had comes deep to get the ball, we would be arriving in most cases to a packed defence. 

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I’ll reply to you on Twitter when I’m home as I don’t want to derail the thread but my Mez does everything yours does. You’re not showing me a single thing mine doesn’t do. Even the positioning, it’s all the same.

In face my system attacks the exact same way as yours as it’s the same shape.

And your original point wasn’t on about it being awful in your system. You made a blanket statement. And you stated yours scores most weeks, yet in all your videos he isn’t much of a goal threat at all. 12 goals in 52 games is poor. I just don’t want the opening poster to be mislead with generalisations and assumptions that have no merit to them.

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Hey all thanks for the kind messages and the lively debate - I joked to Cleon in Twitter that seeing him and Rashidi disagree is like watching your parents argue :) Some excellent advice here though so I'm looking forward to implementing it. 

I'm actually ploughing ahead with the save and just reached half way point in Premier League. I'll try to do an update later as it's been interesting, mainly because I've made a few mistakes which show how you can screw up a good tactic by being blind to your own bias. 

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I’m also very curious about Grealish’s role in this tactic. Were you able to get him to replicate his form irl? Did he dribble as much as he does? 

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I’m interested to see what the build up play looks like. Is it a direct pass to Abraham who can either hold up the ball, pass it back or turn around? Or is Grealish the main man who will pass it to the flanks? Something else perhaps?

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4 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

I joked to Cleon in Twitter that seeing him and Rashidi disagree is like watching your parents argue :) 

Hahaha, yeah. I was thinking the same thing :D

I'm really interested in how your opening season in the PL went! 

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Posted (edited)

Cracking thread OP and very interesting to me particularly as the 4141 has been the focal point of my current save! Very interesting this year seeing how many people are having success with the Mezzala too - I myself only started using it late in 18's life, dismissing it previously through 'fear of the unknown' but now find I pretty much use it in every tactical creation I can, often in 'attack' mode for the lovely (lovely!) goal threat they carry! Even more interesting seeing how you compliment him with his MC/DM accomplices (love seeing the differences/trying to see how they could help/hurt my own side!)! :) 

Very interested (that seems to be my buzz word for this post, sorry!) to see how you go with it/adapt to the premier league as I've now got several iterations I switch between/iterate on depending on my teams relative strength compared to the league/level of the opposition and my biggest observation has been that as the opposition quality has increased, we've (unsurprisingly) had a huge drop off in goals, especially from the Mezzala/my STC although there are some pretty fundamental reasons for that I believe besides the obvious (my players are relatively weaker);

  • I'm doing an academy challenge so have to work with the players we produce and we've just never had a really good quality striker come through - any promotions (we're in league one now having started in the Vanarama North) we've had have effectively neutered any good STC prospects as their potential is obviously not as high in the higher divisions (awful facilities no doubt giving me a low PA ceiling!).
  • The strikers we do have/have had are not 'built' for getting on the end of crosses/banging in 20 goals a season - they're all pretty small, not especially quick nor having much of a physical presence - so not only are they not good enough ability wise, they're also not built to withstand the rigours of the English lower leagues!

By writing all this I'm definitely not trying to hijack (please tell me to jog on if that's how it seems - I take no offence!) - as I say I'm super interested to see how you adapt, but some of the bigger changes I've made/had to make are;

Changing the crossing focus - I noticed in my first season that my (appalling quality) wingers often overhit crosses to the back post area and the opposite winger would frequently be in a position to pick up the ball/exploit the space afforded to them so I made this a component, with cross aim being at the back post and encouraging my wide lads to get into the box when appropriate - output from the wide positions increased enormously as a result and took a lot of the goalscoring pressure off our MC (we ended up with five players scoring 10+ goals/having 10+ assists in the first season as a result - which was amazing!)

I pushed the AML/AMR back to MR/ML (I have issues with how the AMR/AML behave with a high mentality for a number of roles in the ME so I often don't need much convincing to make this change), but the main reason for this is as my team is often the underdog I want their starting position to be behind the ball (I often use regroup in my TI's to help with this too) to make us more compact - this has seen us migrate from this;

image.thumb.png.305b93984d751bfda616d8d5f23207f7.png

to this (not a huge change at first glance I grant you!);

image.thumb.png.a03b89581d9c04fd57a5379a65690f30.png

It's kept the central aspect of my tactic (my midfield three) intact and more importantly let's them have the most impact on the match - as the guys playing in those positions are my three best players it makes sense (at least to me) to focus on their strengths - if these guys play well, the team plays well; hopefully as our facilities improve and the overall ability of our squad improves I'll be able to move the wingers back further forward and maybe iterate a little on my backline - I've already played with IWB's a little bit but feel dirty using them lower down the football pyramid (my own internal weirdness - it's just not something I'd expect to see in a League One game!) but at the very least I'd like to have one oy my DC's as more of a ball player to support the DLP/provide a safe option for my midfield if they're squeezed - the guys there are just a liability passing/decision wise at the moment though! We also concede way too many goals (and are particularly susceptible to long through balls!)which is something I'm trying/I'd like to eradicate but I believe the overall buck for that stops with me and comes largely down to our style of play - our defenders are even worse than our attackers and shoring that up sufficiently caused our own goals to dry up to an unacceptable level - we have to score to win games and against the attacks we're facing we're unlikely to shut most teams out for 90 minutes so we'll find greater balance as our relative ability improves I'm sure, but for now attack is very much our best form of defence (especially as my board just forced me to sell our best DC prospect!)

Changing the passing type of the MC's -  like most people (I expect?) I would love to see nice short passing triangles up and down the pitch but swallowing the reality pill in the first few games I immediately dropped that notion - as we've moved up the leagues and we've had to play a bit more conservatively, I've found success by letting my MC's pass a little more direct (find this works especially well with counter ticked on), especially my Mezzala who has formed a good link with one of my young STC's who can actually run (first STC I've had with >14 for acceleration/pace so through balls are actually slightly viable now!)

Another experiment I tried (but initially abandoned) was changing up to 442 in a bid to get my strikers/team scoring more goals - I moved my DLP to STC and made him a DLF (a role which suits my best player) - now whilst there was some great link up play and my AF came alive, overall the team was weaker as a unit and we struggled to control games so ultimately I reverted back. Not one to give in easily though  (I'm a stubborn git basically) I've since tried something else which seems to be working pretty well (with us on our best run of the season, moving into the playoff places & unbeaten in 12) - I'm trying 2 up top again but have  moved one of the MC's instead of the DMC and modified the roles slightly (and this is still a WIP I'm watching whilst playing) giving us this;

image.thumb.png.8147c0c5cbd8a59086130005e2fd027d.png

Whilst it looks a little bit car crash-y and my brain feels that there should be more 'attack' duties it's working well and most importantly, my guys are finding each other and linking up well, specifically on the left (my next iteration is actually to see how we play with the ML moved forward to AML or perhaps the MR moved to AMR and changed to an IF so he gets into the box to get on the end of the good approach play down the left? We miss a little of the goal threat now that the Mezzala provided but having a sole MC with that role just wasn't working so had to be sacrificed!

Comparing the 12 games I've been using this new style we scored 29 and conceded 14 as opposed to 21 For AND against in the preceding 12 games - obviously allowances have to be made for quality of opposition but the results bear out what I see in-game that not only are we currently carrying more of a goal threat, overall we're controlling games much better as a whole, reducing the oppositions attempts - still don't feel that we're the final article but both of my strikers are now scoring again/assisting (STCR got 9 of the 29, the STCL got 7 with the majority of the rest coming from the MC/ML - my favourite part being that the assists we re nicely spread around the whole team as opposed to one particular player - although my main DLF has had a recent surge in that department which is very nice!);

image.thumb.png.08341e07aab292b39e1a518209dd1f12.png

Only other thing I'll add is that I'll regularly use the Ass Man's 'pick without restriction' on my team to see how he changes the roles based on our best players etc and whilst he largely leaves my side alone, he nearly always changes my midfield three which I find very interesting (post here goes into more detail) - part of me thinks I should maybe listen to him a bit more, but the other part of me doesn't care too much for the role 'colour ratings' preferring instead to focus on attributes to ascertain if i think a player can do a job or not!

I'll leave it there as this is turning into a novel (a horrible trait of mine which my coaches are trying to help me unlearn!), hopefully you're flying high in the Prem with relegation fighting a distant memory and Tammy is still smashing them in, if not perhaps some of my waffling may give you some ideas of possible (depends on your guys of course) directions to go if you get stuck - I find this years game gets the balance much better between 'tactics vs player ability' overall (not saying it's perfect - I still think it's a bit too easy to overachieve!) so promotion is especially exciting tactically as what worked well suddenly stops as your guys come up against much better opposition (my wingers ability to dribble past the full back has evaporated now for example which was a staple of our first season success!). Good luck with the rest of the save and naturally let us know how you get on! :applause:

Edited by optimusprimal82

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Sounds like Fulham (only you’re doing better 😂)

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@beverage1982 great OP, love all the thought processes that get you to your final tactical system. Very similar to the way I approach the game. The update as well is a good read. I always relate more to the mistakes, and learning from them, than the immediate success stories.

Anyway, regarding your dilemma. I don't know if you are an advocate of a one tactic fits all, or multiple versions of the same, or completely different tactics for different situations? I generally have a base tactic with one or two variations of that depending on opposition; their weaknesses vs my strengths, favourites or underdog, injuries etc.

My latest save was a holiday til December and save the bottom club from a relegation dog fight type challenge. The club (surprisingly) bottom of the Prem was Wolves.

1321094297_WolverhamptonWanderers_Overview-3edit.png.96d05ae57b1aa32d24906468569bbf69.png

I got to work and realised that there was an abundance of wide players all with different traits and preferred roles. 

My default 

1217468577_WolverhamptonWanderers_Overview.thumb.png.3be0e4688e04b0534105766aac537aba.png

My secondary

1050956274_WolverhamptonWanderers_Overview-2.thumb.png.65e9caeb2f6e52a0c7659c326ae0f16f.png

The secondary is a very slight variation on the primary tactic, very few TI/PI differences, but using a different base shape and different types of wide players makes it perform very differently. Both variations effective in their own right. I personally think using non specific roles helps this as well. Rotating between Ruben Neves and young Gibbs-White in the CM(a) varies the attacking play due to differences in traits. Same applies to bog standard wingers and IFs. 

Similarly to you, I noticed that moving up the mentality spectrum when chasing a goal made for more varied (and better to watch) attacks. But this was the last 5/10 minute desperation attempts, I'm also far too reserved to play whole games above balanced/positive!

But back to your original question, I do a bit of 1, 2, 3 and 4! In short, for me personally (depending on both pre-game, and in-game circumstances); shape changes to suit, roles change only occasionally, TIs change to suit, PIs generally remain the same, and mentality very rarely strays from balanced for me (purely because I don't fully understand all the implications of doing so :lol:). 

But having such a basic set up allows me a bit of tinkering depending on circumstances. Generally having few TI/PI means it's easier for me to see what needs to be changed during a game. 

Really enjoyed the read and hopefully you enjoy some prolonged success in the Prem, good luck going forward!

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Great thread and nice update -- certainly given the table, you should be ecstatic, especially since you could argue with GD that you're actually slightly underperforming.

With the foreshadowing that you're providing, my guess is that is that the downturn in form is largely down to injuries exposing a lack in depth in certain critical roles that are required for your tactic to work. It's a tough situation to be in, transitioning to a tougher level of competition and not having the funds to be able to find like-for-likes in the same realm of performance.

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17 hours ago, optimusprimal82 said:

image.thumb.png.8147c0c5cbd8a59086130005e2fd027d.png

I used exactly this 4132 wide formation with Sunderland in FM18 (though my setup of roles/duties was different) .

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Great results! Are you going to be able to bring in Tammy full time? If not how do you plan on replacing him?

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1 hour ago, Pattric_b said:

Great results! Are you going to be able to bring in Tammy full time? If not how do you plan on replacing him?

Amazingly he's in his fourth season on loan. Chelsea just keep agreeing to it and even though I've got a half decent agreed fee in place I just keep getting him on loan as why not :) 

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20 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

Amazingly he's in his fourth season on loan. Chelsea just keep agreeing to it and even though I've got a half decent agreed fee in place I just keep getting him on loan as why not :) 

Strange. If you have the funds I'd sign him permanently before Chelsea realize he's still their player !

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The thing that striked me the most was the LoE one. I just followed that advice myself and I see my team keeping possession a lot better and having a lot more support.

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1 hour ago, Razor940 said:

The thing that striked me the most was the LoE one. I just followed that advice myself and I see my team keeping possession a lot better and having a lot more support.

But why does it work this way? Isn’t the options of Defensive Line and Line of Engagement supposed to only “work/function” when out of possesion? 

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1 minuto atrás, pq disse:

But why does it work this way? Isn’t the options of Defensive Line and Line of Engagement supposed to only “work/function” when out of possesion? 

All phases of play are all in involvement with each other at every time. The time you get the ball back you start the attacking transition and if you use an higher LoE your striker will be too high and isolated in that moment. I don't know if it works that way, but I saw a lot more support upfront lowering the LoE.

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1 minute ago, Razor940 said:

All phases of play are all in involvement with each other at every time. The time you get the ball back you start the attacking transition and if you use an higher LoE your striker will be too high and isolated in that moment. I don't know if it works that way, but I saw a lot more support upfront lowering the LoE.

This would make sense as he's already higher up the pitch when pressing. If you win the ball back he'll be up there all alone not being able to fend of 3-4 defenders swarming him.

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2 minutos atrás, yipster1986 disse:

This would make sense as he's already higher up the pitch when pressing. If you win the ball back he'll be up there all alone not being able to fend of 3-4 defenders swarming him.

Yes, but I was thinking and doesn't make much sense in the attacking phase the TI still being in play, it should be only in the transition because it's the last position that he occupied. After that he shouldn't be following any instructions, I guess?

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4 minutes ago, Razor940 said:

All phases of play are all in involvement with each other at every time. The time you get the ball back you start the attacking transition and if you use an higher LoE your striker will be too high and isolated in that moment. I don't know if it works that way, but I saw a lot more support upfront lowering the LoE.

I understand that it works that way “RIGHT” after winning the ball and going into transition. But after some time in possesion, the frontmen should surely not be influenced by the LoE?

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1 minuto atrás, pq disse:

I understand that it works that way “RIGHT” after winning the ball and going into transition. But after some time in possesion, the frontmen should surely not be influenced by the LoE?

I came to the same conclusion in the following posts like you can see. Now I'm confused. :D

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Speaking solely about the LOE, I think the easiest way to understand it is this: a lower LOE is more suitable for counter-attacking football (which does not necessarily implies a low-risk mentality), whereas a higher LOE is a better/more logical choice when you want to control possession and dominate the game in general. Because LOE tells your players - specifically forwards - where on the pitch to start pressing the opposition.

Now, when it comes to the interaction between DL and LOE - the lesser the distance between them is, the more vertically compact your team is (and vice versa, of course). Here you also need to take your formation into account. 

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24 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Speaking solely about the LOE, I think the easiest way to understand it is this: a lower LOE is more suitable for counter-attacking football (which does not necessarily implies a low-risk mentality), whereas a higher LOE is a better/more logical choice when you want to control possession and dominate the game in general. Because LOE tells your players - specifically forwards - where on the pitch to start pressing the opposition.

Now, when it comes to the interaction between DL and LOE - the lesser the distance between them is, the more vertically compact your team is (and vice versa, of course). Here you also need to take your formation into account. 

This!

 

Sorry I realized I never explained this properly but it's all to do with vertical compactness. Basically I need my striker closer to my midfielders to encourage more overlapping. But in a formation like this a higher LOE creates more distance. However higher defensive line and lower LOE means he is closer to teammates when we win the ball. 

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Just re-envigorating this as I'm torn on a bit of a question at the moment. What do people think Jack Grealish's role would be on FM? 

 

IN real life he sticks to the halfspaces on the left quite a lot, draws a lot of fouls by running at defenders and creates overloads. That would suggest a Mezzala to me but he's also very much a p[laymaker apart from the lack of throughballs.

 

I've tried RPM with some success but he almost roams too much. 

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16 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

What do people think Jack Grealish's role would be on FM?

Depending on the system I play, he would be either a mezzala or IF on the left flank. I think these 2 roles would best utilize his abilities. Of course, he could occasionally serve on the right flank as a winger, or even IF on attack.

If I played him in a counter-attacking 4141dm wide system, AP on attack in a CM position is also a role I would consider. 

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Posted (edited)

Interesting read. I have Lucas Paqueta and Houssem Aouar as the indisputable stars of my team and I've been struggling to reinvent myself to get the best out of both of them. 

Tactically, I'd normally describe my approach as punk rock. Fast, aggressive, simple, direct, I take the tenets of Klopp ball and ramp it up to 11. I was playing a 352 where my central midfielders largely exist to win the ball back and then punt it in to the channels for either a wing back or one of two advanced forwards to run on to. 

It's great, I like it, my wing backs rack up huge ratings and bags of assists and the strikers score for days but the midfield is near totally bypassed. 

I've been struggling to adapt and tweak what I have to get them more involved but I always get very frustrated by football that's too slow, too patient. 

I've borrowed a lot from your tactic, opted for a single false nine and two wide players, also used your mezzala and roaming playmaker. Oh my days. Aouar and Paqueta are on an absolute rampage, scoring for fun. They'll take it in turns to bag a brace in alternate games (they're also my set piece takers tbf and some were dead balls.) 

However, as positive as all of this has been, I do find that my striker becomes a bit of a passenger. Or maybe that's harsh, a link man (even when experimenting with more advanced ST roles.) Obviously I've not copied you exactly so I don't expect identical results but I'm surprised Tammy is still so comfortably top scoring. Goals are pretty evenly split around what I'd call my front five. 

Edited by Finners

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