4-2-3-1/4-3-3 the Ajax 18/19 way

[gam945]

Hi, first post for me in this forum although i've read many (many) topics here. I'm also new to FM, he 19 is my first after finally parting ways with PES/FIFA. As a big fan of Bayern Munich, I love direct football with a certain degree of possession/control mentality: the 2012/13 style of play of Heynckes at Bayern or the 2010 Germany are for me the ultimate football styles of play. Recently, Ajax playing in 4-2-3-1 and successfully alternating possession and direct football also impressed me, and surprisingly I didn't find so much tactic replication of this team.

So I basically have 2 questions: 

1) The Donny van de Beek role

I'm not a football tactical analyst, but from the Ajax matches i've witnessed, VDB is used as a second striker, but in the midfield strata. He plays like an AMC, get in the box, creates space for his teammates, but defends like a CM, unlike the typical lazy AMCs like Ozil for example (not saying its a bad thing, just saying that a #10 is usually lazy in defending). Given that the formation in FM is the defensive one, i would interpret his role as a CM(S) with Get Further Foward,Get In Channels and with PPMs Get in Opposition Box (not the late one, he doesn't do late runs but stays in the box or very near), Move Into Channels, Play One-Twos (which is conflicting with More Direct Passes, why??), and maybe Tries Killer Balls.

However when i play a 4-2-3-1 but with them AMC as a CM, i feel that i lack of presence in the final third because of the support role. And if he's on Attack, still lack of presence, but less than support, but he defend less...

The rest of my tactic is

G (D): by default choice, maybe i'll adjust it when the outfield is good

FB (S): I want my fullbacks to firstly defend, but having big stamina, work rate and crossing to they can put some crosses in. Really want the Philipp Lahm style of fullback here

BPD(D): ball playing defenders to be able to get the ball out of defence by retaining possession - this one would be with the PPM Get The Ball Out Of Defence

BPD(C): same as other central defender, but i want him to be less risky and to cover

FB (S): same as the other fullback

DM-RPM(S): this here is one of my biggest interrogations. I want to play my 2 midfielders in the DM strata to close the gap between defence and midfield, but giving them roles so they play as true midfielders and defend like DMs. So one of the roles is locked, its the Segundo Volante: i want him to play like a B2B, like Schone for Ajax, of Schweinsteiger in his glorious days, but for the other DM, i want him to be the player that get the ball from defence and distribute it to the other players that would initiate the attacks. But i feel like having two roaming DMs would be contradicting with the essence of having two DMs...

I'm thinking of PPMs like Try Killer Balls, Dictate Tempo, Play Short Balls, Come Deep to Get the Ball

DM-VOL(S): already explained, but i have no clue as for the PPMs that would replicate the Schweinsteiger role in Germany 2010 of Bayern 2013

CM(S)/CM(A)/AM(S)??

IF(A): essentially, want a player that cuts inside but also crosses, like a Ribery or Robben

W(S): would be on the side of the VOL so would prefer him not to cut inside and deliver crosses and maybe help the mildfield.

P(A)/DLF(S)?? This position is maybe the more complicated for me in FM...i would like a Klose type of striker, so a Poacher. But I feel like he's too isolated in my tactics...

Finally, i have to keep in mind I'm playing with Middlesbrough (no link with the club, but i like to start in a top 8 second division team so i can really model the theam..and also it may be silly but i wanted a team playing in red like Bayern and Ajax lol), so what i do is that i create my tactic (the target tactic) without seeing if its adapted to the team, put it in the second slot, and it the first slot i copy my target tactic and tweak it so it can be adapted to the team. And with training and new players, i try to tweak the adapted tactic until my players can play with my target tactic...

The fact that i play with Boro also means I haven't tried my target tactic because i don't have the players for...Boro have too much kick and rush players to my likes.

In the first paragraph i said i had two questions...the second is relative to the tempo: I want to play a non-stop direct football, but by controlling the game. So I aim for at least 55% possession. I tried Low Pass and High Tempo, Short Pass and Standard Tempo, but always felt that my players waist many balls by trying long range balls or stupid trough balls to give possession away (not that i don't want trough balls, but i want them to be effective...or at least aimed to be effective). So I don't know to replicate a direct control style of play.

Any thoughts on all of this? Thanks in advance

 

edit: screen of the tactics

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, gam945 said:

Play One-Twos (which is conflicting with More Direct Passes, why??

Because a one-two is a quick interchange of short passes (and in a relatively small area of space).

 

10 minutes ago, gam945 said:

I want to play a non-stop direct football, but by controlling the game. So I aim for at least 55% possession. I tried Low Pass and High Tempo, Short Pass and Standard Tempo, but always felt that my players waist many balls by trying long range balls or stupid trough balls to give possession away (not that i don't want trough balls, but i want them to be effective...or at least aimed to be effective). So I don't know to replicate a direct control style of play

What mentality do you play on? Because mentality affects everything. Plus, bear in mind that you are managing Boro, whose players are nowhere near as good as those of Bayern/Ajax, whose style you want to replicate. You can ask a player to do this or that, but the question is whether he's capable of executing an instruction you give him.

 

12 minutes ago, gam945 said:

I tried Low Pass and High Tempo, Short Pass and Standard Tempo

What do you mean by "low" pass? 

[gam945]

2 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

What mentality do you play on? Because mentality affects everything. Plus, bear in mind that you are managing Boro, whose players are nowhere near as good as those of Bayern/Ajax, whose style you want to replicate. You can ask a player to do this or that, but the question is whether he's capable of executing an instruction you give him.

What do you mean by "low" pass? 

• Mentality is Balanced because i don't want defenders to be Positive and still want them to be in support
• Sorry, meant Short Passing+High Tempo and Short Passing+Standard Tempo

[Experienced Defender]

1 minute ago, gam945 said:

Mentality is Balanced because i don't want defenders to be Positive and still want them to be in support

In that case, the tendency of your players to, quote, "waist(waste?) many balls by trying long range balls or stupid trough balls to give possession away" most likely has to do with the use of ball-playing defenders, and you use even two of them at the same time. Because BPD is a role that tends to play risky passes (has a hard-coded "take more risks" PI), and if your BPDs have poor - or not good enough - decisions, vision and anticipation, they will play these speculative long and through balls more often than it would be welcome.

Another potential reason could be your RPM, who - as a play-maker - also has the hard-coded "take more risks" PI, which inherently makes him inclined to attempt more such passes. Here again attributes such as decisions, vision and anticipation will influence his behavior in terms of passing. 

In short, you have as many as 3 roles that tend to play speculative balls in two consecutive strata(s) - i.e. defense and defensive midfield.

[gam945]

13 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

In that case, the tendency of your players to, quote, "waist(waste?) many balls by trying long range balls or stupid trough balls to give possession away" most likely has to do with the use of ball-playing defenders, and you use even two of them at the same time. Because BPD is a role that tends to play risky passes (has a hard-coded "take more risks" PI), and if your BPDs have poor - or not good enough - decisions, vision and anticipation, they will play these speculative long and through balls more often than it would be welcome.

Another potential reason could be your RPM, who - as a play-maker - also has the hard-coded "take more risks" PI, which inherently makes him inclined to attempt more such passes. Here again attributes such as decisions, vision and anticipation will influence his behavior in terms of passing. 

In short, you have as many as 3 roles that tend to play speculative balls in two consecutive strata(s) - i.e. defense and defensive midfield.

yeah, I meant "waste" sorry for the mistakes, just re-read my post and found many silly mistakes...

I think you got a point here on the BPDs and the RPM. Basically i wanted to replicate the De Jong role, so a midfielder that would be the real playmaker of the team, getting the ball deep, dictating tempo, distributing the ball to my VOL/IF/W/AMC and from times to times trying trough balls if there's an opportunity; so i tough the RPM would fit this description best with PPM like Dictate Tempo and Simple Short Passes. However, i want to play from the back...to would CD(D) and CD(C) be a solution  with the right PPMs and TI like Play Out from Defence and Short Passing? And do you think of any alternative role for the De Jong role?

Also any thoughts about the Van de Beek role as i explained it?

btw thanks for your replies, really appreciate it

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, gam945 said:

i want to play from the back...to would CD(D) and CD(C) be a solution  with the right PPMs and TI like Play Out from Defence and Short Passing?

I personally prefer to keep my CBs simple, so I usually tend to use them both as standard CDs. I may sometimes play only one of them as a BPD, but only if that suits the tactical style I want to implement in a particular situation and if the player has all the necessary attributes (passing, vision, decisions, first touch, technique, anticipation... flair is also not bad in this case, but is not necessary).

As for the cover/defend combo, it is my preferred combination, but if you play with that configuration, the offside trap TI can be risky (so better remove it). It's also important to know which one of your CBs is better suited to the cover duty (I prefer the one that is faster and generally more intelligent for cover duty).

Play out of defence and shorter passing are a logical choice if you want to play possession-based football. Tempo is also important. If you opt for shorter passing, then you should avoid lower tempo, because both at the same time would be an overkill (unless you play on a very high-risk mentality). On balanced mentality, you can even try with shorter passing and (slightly) higher tempo (one notch above default). Of course, this - like everything else - depends on the quality of your players - the better they are, the more capable of playing on a higher tempo they will be.

I'll get back later to see if I can help on your other questions (de Yong and de Beek).

[Brian]

This is a good starting point if you want to somewhat replicate the Ajax from this season. I would say under Ten Hag they have the same principle as every Ajax squad, but with way more 'decency'. 

 

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, gam945 said:

VDB is used as a second striker, but in the midfield strata. He plays like an AMC, get in the box, creates space for his teammates, but defends like a CM, unlike the typical lazy AMCs like Ozil for example (not saying its a bad thing, just saying that a #10 is usually lazy in defending). Given that the formation in FM is the defensive one, i would interpret his role as a CM(S) with Get Further Foward,Get In Channels and with PPMs Get in Opposition Box (not the late one, he doesn't do late runs but stays in the box or very near), Move Into Channels, Play One-Twos (which is conflicting with More Direct Passes, why??), and maybe Tries Killer Balls.

If that's how he plays - and I don't know because I haven't watched many Ajax matches - I would interpret his role as a CM on attack duty. But if your formation is 4-2DM-3-1, then there is nobody in the CM strata. So you can either change the formation to 4-2-1-3 DM Wide or play him in the AMC position as an AM on attack (alternatively, if you want him to be a bit more involved in defending, you can go with an AM on support with the Get further forward PI, though the effect won't be entirely the same). His traits also play a part. Gets into the opposition box/area is the right one 

 

3 hours ago, gam945 said:

And do you think of any alternative role for the De Jong role?

Again, don't know enough about Ajax style, but if this is an accurate information on De Jong's attributes, then he is absolutely suitable to play both as a RPM and regista. Here the problem could be the role of the other DM. If you play a combo of RPM/REG and volante, that can make your defense too exposed, because none of these is a holding role that is primarily focused on protecting the back-line. 

 

4 hours ago, gam945 said:

What's your reasoning behind using the following TIs:

- pass into space ?

- wide attacking width ?

- lower LOE ?

- extremely urgent pressing ?

 

[gam945]

31 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

What's your reasoning behind using the following TIs:

- pass into space ?

play trough balls and play dynamically. I sure want my players to pass around and retain possession, but i first want them to search for a run/provoke runs. My philosophy is about a direct/vertical approach: if you don't find a possible run, pass it to a free player; if you find a possible run, try at least to exploit it by making the pass or using the space created by the call and advancing with the ball

31 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

wide attacking width

stretch the defence and possibly having multiple possible runs/ways of penetrating it

31 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

lower LOE ?

- extremely urgent pressing ?

I want to replicate a 4-4-1-1 in defending phase, to get my IF and W to defend, so i went for a medium but compact block (higher Def Line and lower LOE. With a relatively compact block, i want my players to actively try to dispossess the opponent and launch quick counter-attacks, which would be possible because my team isn't too much advanced. So basically i let the opponent advance a little bit but it's to better launch counter-attacks.

But maybe i could start with a 4-4-1-1 DM or a 4-2-3-1 with no players in the AM strata and use a standard LOE? 

 

1 hour ago, Rooks said:

This is a good starting point if you want to somewhat replicate the Ajax from this season. I would say under Ten Hag they have the same principle as every Ajax squad, but with way more 'decency'. 

 

I watched this video, and read some tactical analysis of Ajax, and honestly (with a total humility) i don't think this video makes me learn something new, or maybe i'm missing some points, it could be. But essentially it confirms the triangle passing pattern, the 4-2-3-1 with an AMC (van de Beek) playing like a Shadow Striker and a Roaming Playmaker in the Def Mid area that comes deep and dictates the tempo. Understanding the tactic is 30% of the job, implementing it in FM is the other 70% imo, and I'm really struggling with the implementation part.

edit: your profile says you're managing Ajax..if it's the case, do you mind showing your tactics?

[Brian]

3 minutes ago, gam945 said:

I watched this video, and read some tactical analysis of Ajax, and honestly (with a total humility) i don't think this video makes me learn something new, or maybe i'm missing some points, it could be. But essentially it confirms the triangle passing pattern, the 4-2-3-1 with an AMC (van de Beek) playing like a Shadow Striker and a Roaming Playmaker in the Def Mid area that comes deep and dictates the tempo. Understanding the tactic is 30% of the job, implementing it in FM is the other 70% imo, and I'm really struggling with the implementation part.

 edit: your profile says you're managing Ajax..if it's the case, do you mind showing your tactics?

I don't think you should overthink roles to must while implanting a real life tactic into FM. 

As you said, in real life van Beek is a runner that creates space for others to go in or receiving the ball in the opposition area. You could use the Shadow Striker role or a simple Attacking Midfielder - Attack with additional PI's. Same goes for Frenkie de Jong who can just play Central Midfielder - Support and see how he plays. You could add things like Dribble More later on. For me, simple roles are better to understand and use than a hardcoded role. Rather take the core and implant it in FM than mimic it one by one. 

For my Ajax save I use a simple 4-4-2 diamond possession oriented, like Ten Hag used at my local club FC Utrecht. Tried to mimic it more by using two Mezzala's as they operate in the half-space, but that left us with no defensive cover at all. Settled on CAR-S for now and it works fine. 

[Experienced Defender]

46 minutes ago, gam945 said:

play trough balls and play dynamically. I sure want my players to pass around and retain possession, but i first want them to search for a run/provoke runs. My philosophy is about a direct/vertical approach: if you don't find a possible run, pass it to a free player; if you find a possible run, try at least to exploit it by making the pass or using the space created by the call and advancing with the ball

Okay, but in order for passing into space to make sense, you need that space in the first place - either left by opposition and their style of play, or created by your players, i.e. their roles and duties (which is more difficult btw).

That's why - rather than using the TI "pass into space", which affects the entire team - I prefer to tell a couple of my best and most intelligent passers to take more risks in their PIs. I actually use the "pass into space" TI only when I want to exploit the (plenty of) space left by overly attacking opposition, but never as part of my starting (basic) tactic. There are exceptions though. For example, if your team has a lot of technically gifted and intelligent players with good movement (off the ball), you can successfully employ passing into space (provided you set up roles, duties and other tactical settings in the right way). But that requires a bit more advanced level of tactical knowledge and experience. Finally, passing into space as a TI tends to lead to a needless loss of possession (which sometimes can be very risky), especially if you fail to consider all important factors.

59 minutes ago, gam945 said:

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

wide attacking width

stretch the defence and possibly having multiple possible runs/ways of penetrating it

Good. But then you need some more penetration from deep, in order to better exploit the "stretched" oppo defense.

 

1 hour ago, gam945 said:

I want to replicate a 4-4-1-1 in defending phase, to get my IF and W to defend, so i went for a medium but compact block (higher Def Line and lower LOE. With a relatively compact block, i want my players to actively try to dispossess the opponent and launch quick counter-attacks, which would be possible because my team isn't too much advanced. So basically i let the opponent advance a little bit but it's to better launch counter-attacks.

But maybe i could start with a 4-4-1-1 DM or a 4-2-3-1 with no players in the AM strata and use a standard LOE? 

Higher DL/lower LOE combo is a logical option for achieving vertical compactness (or standard DL/much lower LOE). Just be careful when you play on a higher d-line, because you need good defenders (not only fast but also intelligent). Lower LOE itself is also a good choice when you want to play counter-attacking football (but not if you want to dominate possession and/or control the game in general).

However, extremely urgent pressing can be risky, because it tells (all) your players - including the defenders - to step out of position earlier and with more urgency to close down (press) the opponent in possession. In short, by use of extremely (or even just "more") urgent pressing, you risk compromising your defensive shape too much, leaving a lot of space behind that opposition could exploit. My preference is to use what Rashidi calls "split block/press", which means that you use pressing PIs (rather than the TI) only for your more advanced players - strikers, wide forwards and the AMC in your system - telling them to press more (max pressing urgency), while others are set to normal (default) pressing (relative to the mentality you play on).

[zlatanera]

I had a stab at replicating Ten Hag with my Ajax side too, it got 87 points in the league but we didn't make much headway in Europe, would probably have done better had herne's tiki-take thread come out a week earlier and given me the idea to use pressing PIs instead of having the whole team do it.. I mainly based it on that Tifo video, this was a couple of months ago when we had less information on them. It evolved over the season to end up like this:

The front 4 and right CM had "Close Down More", Treq had "cut inside, sit narrow" to get him more involved and allow Mazroui to overlap, Van de Beek had "move into channels", Tadic (AML) had "sit narrower, roam". I also had an alternate ST-AM setup where Huntelaar would be a Poacher and Van de Beek would be AM-Su with "close down more" and "get further forward". David Neres playing on the right would be W-At with "stay wider".

The right CM had "get further forward" but that was mainly because Schöne had scored quite a few free kicks and I decided to get him to 20 goals as I'd never had that from a CM before.

"distribute to specific team-mate" - team-mate is De Jong, as I wanted to use his "brings ball out of defence" trait.

OP I know you said you wanted to mimic both Van de Beek's defensive workrate and ability to get into the box...perhaps it can be done with a support duty and "Gets Into Opposition Area" but most likely not so I'd advise you to pick one...probably the attacking as you have a lot of midfielders who can do a job further back but not as many with decent Finishing.

 

 

 

[gam945]

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

But then you need some more penetration from deep

Would a solution to that be the use of my IF/W in the ML/MR (Inverted winger and winger) strata?

8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

My preference is to use what Rashidi calls "split block/press", which means that you use pressing PIs (rather than the TI) only for your more advanced players - strikers, wide forwards and the AMC in your system - telling them to press more (max pressing urgency), while others are set to normal (default) pressing (relative to the mentality you play on).

i get it, makes sense

Your help is really appreciated, I'll try to implement all those new ideas in a save with Boro (i know I said I already managed Boro, while that is true, it is also true that i've done 15+ with only Boro, never going past the preseason, i always quit my save and begin another by frustration of not knowing what I'm doing). That save will be the one i hope. I would have a last question for you: what is the fundamental difference between positionning wide attacking players in ML/MR and in AML/AMR? I know that i have to see it with the combination of other roles, but there has to be a main difference; does it mainly give more space to attack into?

13 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

have you identified some patterns in De Jong play with this role? in general, how does he play within your tactic? does he track back and cover for the defence?

[zlatanera]

10 minutes ago, gam945 said:

have you identified some patterns in De Jong play with this role? in general, how does he play within your tactic? does he track back and cover for the defence?

We had 60% possession in a lot of games, so he didn't really have to do much tracking back. He'd often be the 3rd furthest back outfield player though, when the WBs had bombed on,  and seemd to get a few interceptions each game. He'll certainly be less defensive as a RPM though.

[gam945]

@zlatanera to which players you gave the pressing PI? and the TI pressing intensity was standard or More (1 level above standard)?

[Experienced Defender]

8 minutes ago, gam945 said:

Would a solution to that be the use of my IF/W in the ML/MR (Inverted winger and winger) strata?

Inverted winger on attack can be a good option, but then it means you are changing the whole formation (to 4-2-2-1-1 or something like that, I guess?). I play 442 in my Brighton save, and sometimes use Origi (loaned from LFC) as an IW on attack in the ML position, and he is very good in that role, but you always need to consider the whole system, not just one or two players/roles. When a player from a deeper position is given attack duty, you need someone to cover for him defensively. In your 4-2DM-3-1 system, you can play the volante on attack, but then the fullback on that side would likely need to be more conservative.

 

15 minutes ago, gam945 said:

I'll try to implement all those new ideas in a save with Boro

As I said in my first post, I fear that an Ajax replication might not work with Boro, because of the obvious difference in the quality of players. So even if you manage to create a perfect tactical replication of the Ajax style, it still can fail.

 

18 minutes ago, gam945 said:

what is the fundamental difference between positionning wide attacking players in ML/MR and in AML/AMR? I know that i have to see it with the combination of other roles, but there has to be a main difference; does it mainly give more space to attack into?

Well, the difference is obvious. When played in AMR/L positions, wide players have a higher starting position and are therefore closer to your strikers and opposition defense than they are when in MR/ML, but further away from your defense, which means they'll need more time and space to cover to track back and help in defense when your attack breaks down. Now, there is a difference between various systems. Standard 4231 and your deep 4231 (with DMs) are both considered "top-heavy" formations, but the latter is safer from a purely defensive perspective (on condition that everything else is the same). 4141DM Wide and 4231 both have wide forwards in AMR/L positions, but the former is defensively safer (in relative terms) because it employs a DM instead of AMC. That's why the balance of roles and duties is so important (taking the mentality into account, as well). 

The more top-heavy your formation is, the more careful/cautious you need to be with roles, and especially with duties. The same is true for mentality. If you play on a higher mentality, you need fewer players on attack duty compared to a lower mentality, because with the higher mentality the (relative) initial positioning of your players will be higher (up the pitch). And vice versa. 

And then again, it's all relative to the qualities and capabilities of your players. When you manage a strong team, you can afford to play with more risk in attack, because your defenders are comparatively better and should be able to deal with potential (counter-attacking) threats more successfully than if you manage a weak or average team.

43 minutes ago, gam945 said:

does it mainly give more space to attack into?

I would rather say that it gives a player more choice to pick the right moment to attack the space, because when he starts from a deeper position, he has more time - and space of course - to time his movement forward. The way I play Origi is a good example. If I played him as an IF on attack, it would be more difficult for him to make an impact in the final third, because of the proximity of the opposition defense. But that of course does not mean that you should not use players in AMR/L positions. If you know your players, you will be able to set up the tactic in an optimal way, including the choice of formation. I manage 3 different teams at the moment, and I use not only different tactics - but also formations - for each of them.

[zlatanera]

28 minutes ago, gam945 said:

@zlatanera to which players you gave the pressing PI? and the TI pressing intensity was standard or More (1 level above standard)?

There was no TI for pressing.

For the PIs: ST (but not when Huntelaar played as a Poacher, this was simply due to not wanting to tire him out - if you have a more athletic player, go for it), AML, AMC, AMR, MCR. And it was the maximum one available. 

[gam945]

17 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I play 442 in my Brighton save

what roles and PIs you gave to your double pivot (the 2 CMs)? and what PPMs you expect them to have long-term wise?

17 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I would rather say that it gives a player more choice to pick the right moment to attack the space, because when he starts from a deeper position, he has more time - and space of course - to time his movement forward.

nice explanation, thanks

7 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

For the PIs: ST (but not when Huntelaar played as a Poacher, this was simply due to not wanting to tire him out - if you have a more athletic player, go for it), AML, AMC, AMR, MCR. And it was the maximum one available.

seems like I'll go for this and see how it works in match

 

I'll finally settle for this target tactic and use my 6 pre-season games to tweak it, mostly for the foward role, the non-roaming CM and the back four instructions

I'll use the first 3 games to see how my current squad plays with this tactic and how can i adapt it to them, and the final 3 to observe the adapted version, so surely the deep 4-2-3-1 with wide players in MR/ML will be the adapted tactic for the first half of the season.

However, i'll insist that my youth teams use my target tactic. Maybe when i'll build a better squad I'll be able to replicate more the tactic

DLF(S) - close down more (pressing)

PPM: place shots

SS(A) - close down more (pressing) will settle for this as for the VDB role...

PPM: moves into channels, gets into opposition area, tries killer balls

IW(A) - close down more

PPM: hugs line, cuts inside with ball

RPM(S) 

PPM: comes deep to get ball, bring ball out of defence, dictates tempo

CM(S) - hold position (?), take fewer risks (?)

PPM: (?) 

W(S) - close down more

FB(S) maybe cross from deep?

CD(S) maybe one on Take fewer risks PI

[Experienced Defender]

15 hours ago, gam945 said:

what roles and PIs you gave to your double pivot (the 2 CMs)? and what PPMs you expect them to have long-term wise?

One is always CM on defend (only when I play 4141 in very tough games, he can sometimes be a BWM on support, but very rarely). The other's role varies, depending on a given match/opposition. Usually AP on support, sometimes RPM or DLP on support. For the CMdef - dribble less (sometimes shoot more often). For the other one - roam from position. As for their PPMs, I haven't done anything. 

[Gianni Brera]

Watching Ajax every week, this would be my take on how they approach their big games (Champions league). Its a bit of a rough sketch though:

 

Two Ball-playing centre backs: Blind was specifically brought into the squad for his ball-playing capabilities, and De Ligt is one of the few defenders in Europe both exceptionally good at defending and playing with the ball on the feet.

 

FB-L on Attack: Tagliafico is always the more attacking full-back of Ajax and most of Ajax' attacking movement happens down the left flank. I'd set him to FB and not WB or CWB because Tagliafico is not a la Roberto Carlos taking the ball with his feet to the attacking third. Rather he makes overlapping runs and delivers a quick cross. WB roles would instruct him to make lots of dribbles.

 

DLP-D + DLP-S: The build-up often runs through De Jong who drops deep, and positional analysis of Ajax shows that De Jong is - on average - consistently playing deeper than his midfield partner Schöne in every CL game. Nevertheless, I think they both play as DLP's.

 

Van de Beek: this is a tricky one. It seems tempting to describe him as a shadow-striker, but positional maps show he plays deeper than Ziyech (RW) and only slightly ahead of Schöne. In the domestic league Van de Beek aggressively pushes into the box and moves out wide, but in the Champions League I think he plays in a more traditional AMC role. Shadow Striker would also not see him contribute a lot to defence, so I think it must be a ''support'' role. He is not a playmaker either.

 

RW: Ziyech plays there, support role - often comes back very deep to help out Mazraoui, then launches it long diagonally to Tagliafico or Neres on the other flank.

LW: David Neres cuts inside whenever he can - originally a striker, so his natural instinct is to drive towards the net. I gave him an attack duty as well mainly because positional maps show that he is, together with the striker, the most advanced player of Ajax.

 

CF: In the big games they play Tadic here, but in what role remains a bit vague. Perhaps because Tadic is not a natural striker, and gives his own twist to it. They play him here for his dribbling capacity and pace, expecting a lot of counter-attacking opportunities against teams like Real Madrid and Bayern. An Advanced Striker seems a fitting role, allowing him to move into channels, go after clearances etc. Alternatively, I could also easily interpret him as a DLF-Attack, but positional maps once again show that he plays quite far ahead together with Neres from the attacking midfielders.

 

TI's:

 

The usual Ajax philosophy basically. Positive mentality, short passing, play out of defence, be more expressive (allowing greater roaming movement). In transition, Onana often plays out to the CB's. Ajax does seek to counter when the opportunity arises with Neres and Tadic, and counter-pressing remains a key element of their game, especially since their manager learned the trade at Bayern Munich under Guardiola. They play a much higher defensive line - De Ligt will frequently stop his opponents at the half-way line. Offside trap would seem rather logical.

[gam945]

4 hours ago, Gianni Brera said:

The usual Ajax philosophy basically. Positive mentality, short passing, play out of defence, be more expressive (allowing greater roaming movement). In transition, Onana often plays out to the CB's. Ajax does seek to counter when the opportunity arises with Neres and Tadic, and counter-pressing remains a key element of their game, especially since their manager learned the trade at Bayern Munich under Guardiola. They play a much higher defensive line - De Ligt will frequently stop his opponents at the half-way line. Offside trap would seem rather logical.

Nice, i have the same TIs apart from Be More Expressive (i play with an english second division team so for the moment there isn't enough quality to use this TI) and More Urgent Pressing (I followed the above advices to only use Close Down More PI on my front 4 attackers and depending on the team on another midfielder)

4 hours ago, Gianni Brera said:

Van de Beek: this is a tricky one. It seems tempting to describe him as a shadow-striker, but positional maps show he plays deeper than Ziyech (RW) and only slightly ahead of Schöne. In the domestic league Van de Beek aggressively pushes into the box and moves out wide, but in the Champions League I think he plays in a more traditional AMC role. Shadow Striker would also not see him contribute a lot to defence, so I think it must be a ''support'' role. He is not a playmaker either.

For the VDB role i made my mind: Either it is a Shadow Striker with a Come Deep player trait, either it is a Box to box with PIs Get Further Foward, Move Into Channels, Take More Risks, Dribble More (so a B2B with PIs of a shadow striker). But for this to be effective, what i do is play a natural midfielder, preferably a good B2B and train him as Shadow Striker. I would never use a natural AMC/ST in this position, the player would be too attack-minded for the VDB role

4 hours ago, Gianni Brera said:

DLP-D + DLP-S: The build-up often runs through De Jong who drops deep, and positional analysis of Ajax shows that De Jong is - on average - consistently playing deeper than his midfield partner Schöne in every CL game. Nevertheless, I think they both play as DLP's.

what i don't like in the DLP role is the PI Hold Position...I would like my "De Jong" to patrol the midfield, always be the "spare man", the one player that is always available for a pass, so naturally i chose the Roaming Playmaker. A perfect attacking initiating movement for me would be my "De Jong" coming deep, get the ball from the DCs, make passes to the best positioned winger/shadow striker/the other midfielder until the defence can be unlocked. Rarely, he can try trough balls if the opportunity is clear. I don't want him to be static like a DLP (Hold Position).

However now that i made my mind for the "De Jong" and VDB roles, now the "Schone"/other midfielder is the one giving me trouble. With a 2 MC pairing (4-4-1-1), i have to margin of error if I put a RPM. The other has to not roam and hold his position, being able to help the defence when it's needed. With a 3 MC paring (4-5-1), i have a RPM and a BBM (VDB role) as my CM left and right. So do i put the 3rd in the DM strata (4-1-4-1) but allowing him to play like a CM(S)? do i put the RPM and the 3rd in the DM strata and use a RPM-VOL DM pairing (4-2-3-1 deep with MR/ML)? I don't know...

However, i narrowed my formations to 3:

4-4-1-1 : the most attacking formation, use of a Shadow striker for the VDB role, typically for less stronger sides

4-5-1/4-1-4-1: more balanced, the center CM in the 4-5-1 or the DM in the 4-1-4-1 always cover for the defence, use of a BBM for the VDB role, typically for equal quality sides

4-2-3-1 deep DM MR/ML: more defensive, the DM pairing allows a good screening of the defence, but still allowing to roam (RPM) and make some runs (VOL), use of a BBM for the VDB role, typically for clearly better sides

In all those 3 formations, i use IW and a W in the MR/ML strata depending on the side of the pitch where the SS/BBM is (IW in the opposite side of SS/BBM, W on the same side), FB(S) but with Get Forward depending on the side of the IW/W (the fullback on the side of IW will have to put in more crosses) and a DLF(S/A) in attack (S for the 4-4-1-1 and A for the others). And always a RPM in CM or DM strata. So what changes is the VDB role (BBM/SS) and Schone role (VOL/CM-D/BWM-D/??)

I made a test save with Boro and everything is relatively going well, I'll post some screens maybe later...Will try to read the 4-4-2 thread of Cleon, Possession threads in this forum, some training and developing youth threads in here also and then I'll begin my long term Boro save

[Nima2708]

On ‎03‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 18:55, gam945 said:

Hi, first post for me in this forum although i've read many (many) topics here. I'm also new to FM, he 19 is my first after finally parting ways with PES/FIFA. As a big fan of Bayern Munich, I love direct football with a certain degree of possession/control mentality: the 2012/13 style of play of Heynckes at Bayern or the 2010 Germany are for me the ultimate football styles of play. Recently, Ajax playing in 4-2-3-1 and successfully alternating possession and direct football also impressed me, and surprisingly I didn't find so much tactic replication of this team.

So I basically have 2 questions: 

1) The Donny van de Beek role

I'm not a football tactical analyst, but from the Ajax matches i've witnessed, VDB is used as a second striker, but in the midfield strata. He plays like an AMC, get in the box, creates space for his teammates, but defends like a CM, unlike the typical lazy AMCs like Ozil for example (not saying its a bad thing, just saying that a #10 is usually lazy in defending). Given that the formation in FM is the defensive one, i would interpret his role as a CM(S) with Get Further Foward,Get In Channels and with PPMs Get in Opposition Box (not the late one, he doesn't do late runs but stays in the box or very near), Move Into Channels, Play One-Twos (which is conflicting with More Direct Passes, why??), and maybe Tries Killer Balls.

However when i play a 4-2-3-1 but with them AMC as a CM, i feel that i lack of presence in the final third because of the support role. And if he's on Attack, still lack of presence, but less than support, but he defend less...

The rest of my tactic is

G (D): by default choice, maybe i'll adjust it when the outfield is good 

FB (S): I want my fullbacks to firstly defend, but having big stamina, work rate and crossing to they can put some crosses in. Really want the Philipp Lahm style of fullback here

BPD(D): ball playing defenders to be able to get the ball out of defence by retaining possession - this one would be with the PPM Get The Ball Out Of Defence

BPD(C): same as other central defender, but i want him to be less risky and to cover

FB (S): same as the other fullback

DM-RPM(S): this here is one of my biggest interrogations. I want to play my 2 midfielders in the DM strata to close the gap between defence and midfield, but giving them roles so they play as true midfielders and defend like DMs. So one of the roles is locked, its the Segundo Volante: i want him to play like a B2B, like Schone for Ajax, of Schweinsteiger in his glorious days, but for the other DM, i want him to be the player that get the ball from defence and distribute it to the other players that would initiate the attacks. But i feel like having two roaming DMs would be contradicting with the essence of having two DMs...

I'm thinking of PPMs like Try Killer Balls, Dictate Tempo, Play Short Balls, Come Deep to Get the Ball

DM-VOL(S): already explained, but i have no clue as for the PPMs that would replicate the Schweinsteiger role in Germany 2010 of Bayern 2013

CM(S)/CM(A)/AM(S)??

IF(A): essentially, want a player that cuts inside but also crosses, like a Ribery or Robben

W(S): would be on the side of the VOL so would prefer him not to cut inside and deliver crosses and maybe help the mildfield.

P(A)/DLF(S)?? This position is maybe the more complicated for me in FM...i would like a Klose type of striker, so a Poacher. But I feel like he's too isolated in my tactics...

Finally, i have to keep in mind I'm playing with Middlesbrough (no link with the club, but i like to start in a top 8 second division team so i can really model the theam..and also it may be silly but i wanted a team playing in red like Bayern and Ajax lol), so what i do is that i create my tactic (the target tactic) without seeing if its adapted to the team, put it in the second slot, and it the first slot i copy my target tactic and tweak it so it can be adapted to the team. And with training and new players, i try to tweak the adapted tactic until my players can play with my target tactic...

The fact that i play with Boro also means I haven't tried my target tactic because i don't have the players for...Boro have too much kick and rush players to my likes.

In the first paragraph i said i had two questions...the second is relative to the tempo: I want to play a non-stop direct football, but by controlling the game. So I aim for at least 55% possession. I tried Low Pass and High Tempo, Short Pass and Standard Tempo, but always felt that my players waist many balls by trying long range balls or stupid trough balls to give possession away (not that i don't want trough balls, but i want them to be effective...or at least aimed to be effective). So I don't know to replicate a direct control style of play.

Any thoughts on all of this? Thanks in advance

 

edit: screen of the tactics

watched this one ? 

 

[jorgvandervloed]

Have you thought of playing with 2 DM's and 1 CM? Something like this:

                            F9 (S)

AP (S)                                            IF (S)

                          CM (A)

               RPM (S)   -   DM (S)

FB (A)   -   CD (D)   -   CD (D)   -   FB (S)

I think De Jong is known for his dribbling and caring the ball forward from defence. In the TIFO video, I saw that Tadic (when playing on the left) likes to play narrower and drops deeper to create space for the left FB. I think that Ziyech is more of a goal-threat (he tries to shoot more), which would resemble a IF (S). 

As I haven't played FM19 yet, I'm not familiair with with the TI's. On FM18 I would go for control mentality and TI's: play from defence, Close down much, lower tempo, retain possession, and roam from positions. 

[Experienced Defender]

34 minutes ago, jorgvandervloed said:

VM (S)

What role is "VM" (in defensive midfield)?

[jorgvandervloed]

38 minutes ago, jorgvandervloed said:

Have you thought of playing with 2 DM's and 1 CM? Something like this:

                            F9 (S)

AP (S)                                            IF (S)

                          CM (A)

               RPM (S)   -   DM (S)

FB (A)   -   CD (D)   -   CD (D)   -   FB (S)

I think De Jong is known for his dribbling and caring the ball forward from defence. In the TIFO video, I saw that Tadic (when playing on the left) likes to play narrower and drops deeper to create space for the left FB. I think that Ziyech is more of a goal-threat (he tries to shoot more), which would resemble a IF (S). 

As I haven't played FM19 yet, I'm not familiair with with the TI's. On FM18 I would go for control mentality and TI's: play from defence, Close down much, lower tempo, retain possession, and roam from positions. 

My bad, I forgot to translate that from Dutch to English. Should be: DM (S) and amended this as well. Thanks for pointing this out. 

[gam945]

On 08/04/2019 at 05:13, Nima2708 said:

watched this one ? 

 

yeah, saw it. However I didn't like the tactic due to the CWBs and RGA, as i really feel the RPM is the "De Jong" role, but i took some inspiration from this video, let's say it was one of the starting points.

 

18 hours ago, jorgvandervloed said:

Have you thought of playing with 2 DM's and 1 CM? Something like this:

                            F9 (S)

AP (S)                                            IF (S)

                          CM (A)

               RPM (S)   -   DM (S)

FB (A)   -   CD (D)   -   CD (D)   -   FB (S)

I think De Jong is known for his dribbling and caring the ball forward from defence. In the TIFO video, I saw that Tadic (when playing on the left) likes to play narrower and drops deeper to create space for the left FB. I think that Ziyech is more of a goal-threat (he tries to shoot more), which would resemble a IF (S). 

 

I tought of of using DMs (see my last post before this one), in a deep 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1 DM so it would like your formation but wingers/IF in the MR/ML strata, and AF/CF/DLF instead of F9. And for the CM(A) it would be either this or move it to AMC strata and become SS(A).

However, i would prefer to defend in 4-4-1-1/4-4-2, so i have to find a balanced combination for the 2 man midfield. The thing is that i don't want my RPM to enter the final third and I want him to be the one covering for the defense, and in the CM strata he doesn't play like this...so i may have to sacrifice the 4-4-2 shape and go with a 4-4-2 DM with RPM(S)-VOL(S), i will see average positions in game and decide...Hopefully we can keep the 2 banks of four with a 4-4-2 DM

[zlatanera]

7 hours ago, gam945 said:

However, i would prefer to defend in 4-4-1-1/4-4-2, so i have to find a balanced combination for the 2 man midfield. The thing is that i don't want my RPM to enter the final third and I want him to be the one covering for the defense, and in the CM strata he doesn't play like this...

Doesn't the in-game description of RPM say that he'll work his way up with the play until he gets to around the edge of the box? i.e. entering the final third is a reason to pick him over DLP-Su? 

[gam945]

2 hours ago, zlatanera said:

Doesn't the in-game description of RPM say that he'll work his way up with the play until he gets to around the edge of the box? i.e. entering the final third is a reason to pick him over DLP-Su? 

Yeah and thats the dilemna...

A DLP almost does the perfect job, the problem is that he holds his position, he doesn't roam. I want a CM roaming in all the defense-midfield area, making himself always available for a pass, and covering the defense.

A RPM also does the perfect job but he enters the final third and i dont wamt that...

So i think maybe the RPM in DM position would do a better job covering the defense than a CM, and still roam compared to the DLP who does not.

This a point i'll tweak by seeing the behavior of each possible role/duty in my save and also adapt to the opposition.

Maybe if i put the AMC straight above him in an asymetrical 4-4-1-1 I'll limit the space in which he would operate...

[zlatanera]

9 hours ago, gam945 said:

Yeah and thats the dilemna...

A DLP almost does the perfect job, the problem is that he holds his position, he doesn't roam. I want a CM roaming in all the defense-midfield area, making himself always available for a pass, and covering the defense.

A RPM also does the perfect job but he enters the final third and i dont wamt that...

So i think maybe the RPM in DM position would do a better job covering the defense than a CM, and still roam compared to the DLP who does not.

This a point i'll tweak by seeing the behavior of each possible role/duty in my save and also adapt to the opposition.

Maybe if i put the AMC straight above him in an asymetrical 4-4-1-1 I'll limit the space in which he would operate...

I found DLP-Su wasn’t especially static (and my DLP-Su in my  Jardim tactic, Ndombele and Joao Felix, got into the box a bit) but in the DM position it sounds like you want a Regista, but either with Shorter Passing or the TI Play Out Of Defence to keep him from being too direct. I used Frenkie like that as well and he got quite a good pass completion, popping up all across the pitch, but his traits and vision meant you still saw killer balls when they were on

[Experienced Defender]

The Hold position PI does not mean a DLPsu is never going to move anywhere from his place. It just means he will look to keep his position within the overall shape of your team, rather than roaming around or bombing forward aggressively. When you control the game and camp in the opposition half, he will sometimes even come close to the opposition area to receive a pass and distribute the ball. Even most defensive DM roles, like anchor man, will sometimes be encouraged to move a bit more forward when you are firmly in control of the game.

[gam945]

15 hours ago, zlatanera said:

I found DLP-Su wasn’t especially static (and my DLP-Su in my  Jardim tactic, Ndombele and Joao Felix, got into the box a bit)

 

13 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The Hold position PI does not mean a DLPsu is never going to move anywhere from his place. It just means he will look to keep his position within the overall shape of your team, rather than roaming around or bombing forward aggressively.

Okay, i see...so that's more of a misunderstanding from me...I'll test the CM DLP(S or D) next time i'll have time for my test save, didn't have time to test most of the tweaked formations that you guys helped me with. Really looking to implement the changes and see the result

@zlatanera do you have an average positions chart of a formation with a CM DLP(S or D) and the completed passes chart of the DLP to see if he roams a little bit? (saw that you used a DLP(s) in CM slot in your Dortmung 4-4-1-1, in your Monaco topic that i enjoyed to read btw

[zlatanera]

7 hours ago, gam945 said:

 

Okay, i see...so that's more of a misunderstanding from me...I'll test the CM DLP(S or D) next time i'll have time for my test save, didn't have time to test most of the tweaked formations that you guys helped me with. Really looking to implement the changes and see the result

@zlatanera do you have an average positions chart of a formation with a CM DLP(S or D) and the completed passes chart of the DLP to see if he roams a little bit? (saw that you used a DLP(s) in CM slot in your Dortmung 4-4-1-1, in your Monaco topic that i enjoyed to read btw

Afraid not - the Dortmund save I did a different tactic each of the next two seasons, and with Lyon where I also used it Tanguy Ndombele is just a completely different type of player with different traits so I don’t think it would be much use. Same with Manchester United - João Felix / Saul / N’golo Kante are, again, not Frenkie de Jong.

Im doing a similar thing now with Ajax, same style but different roles. This time I have DLP-De at DM (Lasse Schöne), RPM (Frenkie de Jong) and CM-At (Donny van de Beek) in my midfield three. DvdB is nearly on 10 goals for the season by Christmas despite heavy rotation (with Ekkelenkamp who also is averaging a goal every two games) so if you want to see that I could make a few screenshots?

[zlatanera]

So here's info from a game I lost against Benfica, where they had more possession, more shots etc.

Without ball is the red circles, DLP is 20, RPM is 21, CM-At is 6. As you can see because we were pegged back, not much different vertically, only laterally. 

Shots: Van de Beek got right into the box, whereas Frenkie was outside. 

Frenkie's passing - a lot deep because we were pegged in, but none inside the box and he clearly roams around a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

[zlatanera]

And here's from one against Fortuna Sittard, where we dominated 8-2 (yet still had less possession as this is based off a Jardim replication) 

In possession almost a 3-4-3

Out of possession more of a 4-3-3. 

Yet again shots show van de Beek getting into the box fine. 

Passes show Frenkie de Jong doing more in their half this time, but still not getting right into the box - given we were camped in their half a lot of the game, that heavy concentration in the final third is pretty much our CM zone. The number seems low, that's because he was subbed off due to fatigue pretty early on. 

[gam945]

1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

Frenkie's passing - a lot deep because we were pegged in, but none inside the box and he clearly roams around a bit.

Wow, this is EXACTLY what i want to achieve but with a RPM/DLP in a 2 man pariring (4-4-1-1)

 

1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

Yet again shots show van de Beek getting into the box fine. 

Very nice, it replicates VdB behavior imo

Thanks for your pics, really appreciated man!

[zlatanera]

Glad to help, I tried this replication before so if you can do it better that means I can copy!