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Hello guys. I am a long term fan on the football management genre and have been playing football manager series for many years now. I've always been having fun - transform some youth players into stars, find some exiciting prospects where nobody would look, make your striker bang 50 goals in a season - you get it. Over the years things have changed, I have a job now and I can only get some hours of playtime here and there but I still have fun. I've been playing the touch version only for a while now (maybe since 2014) as it helps me feel I get more progress without having to invest so much time into it. 

Anyways... this year I feel competely disgusted by the game. I am struggling so hard at it that I even switched to some older versions just to fulfill a bit of my cravings. Strikers don't score, midfielders shoot the ball into the stands everytime they get the chance as they are ********, goalkeepers give the ball to the opposition and so on. I've been browsing the forums for solutions, watched youtube guides - everybody has suggestions - increase this, decrease that, use this role, use that role - tbh nobody has any idea what they are talking about - the game just seems that it's in a quantum mechanics state where you never know what to  expect.

Now I do get that realism requires complexity and that is a characteristic we really appreciate about FM but why on earth do I have to watch the game in full mode my whole preaseason just to be able to understand that two of my roles don't work well together. I've been looking at analysis - literally nothing useful there - plenty of buttons and checkboxes but nothing relevant really. Who has time for this? It seems to me that the game is becoming more and more of a full time job instead of something that gives you some joy.

Regarding tactics - I am a guy that thinks procedurally both in real life as in games. It works - you know that if you follow this approach you slowly get the results you want. But in this year's version of the game the tactics are utter nonsense. You need to spawn 10 save games or hit reload 10 times on a match just so you get enough tweaking variations that you start to understand the underlying mechanics. And that does not even work the next game - you need to do that again and again. And keep in mind I am playing the touch mode...

So, since this thread is about tactics, I would really appreciate some procedural approaches on how to get the best tactics and roles for your team, how to tweak from match to match and how on earth to get good stats out of your best players.

Cheers,

Robert

Edited by ontiu17
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Hi fella.  Its not easy at the moment to be more of a casual player as there is added depth to the game and tactics have evolved both in real life and FM too.  I think its all too easy to underestimate the game and over estimate how good you may be at it and I'm talking from my own experience.

I think Spielverlagerung.com is one of the best sites around to read about tactical theory and watch the odd video.  For me that is usually easier to follow than looking at someone else's FM tactic which although may be working for them it's doing so partly from judgment but sometimes luck too and hence may not be explained correctly.

When getting back to FM the preset tactical styles aren't too bad a starting point to work from and apply what you've picked up.  My personal tip is to try and understand transitions as best you can.  A lot of mistakes I see on this forum are in there more than some people realise.  Just ticking counterpress / counter for example aren't magic buttons. 

Good luck Robert.

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To be honest, I just play with my own tweaked version of the same tactic i've been using for years, and it still works. For me its about asymmetric tactics and creating overloads. But then my tactic is basically based on what I think my team should play in real life with the players they have, so I just buy players to replace the ones I have that are similar, with a couple of wild cards for variation. I say stuff the tactics gurus bar some of the best who outline why they do things based on real life. The rest are just match engine exploits that always hit the buffers when the opposition adapts or the ME updates. Simple real life principles always work the best and are much more satisfying to implement.

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1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:
  • How do I plan to score my goals.

Can you put more emphasis on this? I often see this mentioned, but how do you go about planning to score goals exactly? Is it a complex logical though? Is it as simple as "AP makes a through ball to the striker and he scores".

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2 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Here is how I go about tactical design. I will note that I do not believe in a "best" tactic with "best" roles though. So much of football is situational. What is best for losing 1-0 with 15 minutes to go is not the same as what is best when protecting a 1 minute lead with 15 minutes to go. And what is best when playing Crapington United will not be best when playing BestTeamEver Town. So this is how I go about designing, and using my tactics. 

1. Identify the formation. This can be decided based on the players I have, or my own preference. Both are valid. Typically I go with personal choice when I have very good players, and decide based on the squad when they are not so talented.

2. How do I want to play? Possession? Direct? What is the ultimate style I want. Here you have to factor in whether your players are able to pull this off. A bunch of lazy unfit players are going to suck at a high pressing game. A team without pace may struggle to counter. You get the idea.

3. Player roles. This links back to the first 2 points. I want roles to encourage my style of play, that fits the formation. You should take into account:

  • How each role is supported by others.
  • Do I have the players to play here? No point having a left winger if everyone in your team is right footed.
  • How do I plan to score my goals.

4. TIs and PIs. TIs should be based around your style of play. I tend to go minimalist at the start, adding only ones I really think are useful. I can and do add more over time. PIs I will do the same. Things I really know I want (pressing for forwards, for instance) I add. Everything else can be added later.

That is the initial design. Tactical analysis in preseason is sketchy. Your players do not care so much. AI players do not care so much. People are unfit. They are not used to the tactic. They are not used to each other. So do not lean to heavily. Some general rules I have for this:

1. You should be able to beat weaker teams comfortably. If you are not seeing this, you will also likely struggle against better teams. This is a big red flag to either reevaluate the steps above, or to change things within your framework.

2. Preseason is about fitness and about moral. I always play weaker teams that I expect to beat easily. I do not expect to learn tactically from games against bigger teams. It can give a false sense of security to win. Get players fit and get them happy.

3. In games, you should be looking for patterns in the play. How do my players link up? Am I creating the chances I thought about above? Where is my play being channeled? What do I see that I dislike? Do not get hung up on individual errors, crappy passing, etc. It is preseason. Look that your tactic is doing roughly what it should.

4. If you are going to make changes, do it match to match. Do not try 15 things in a single match. You will learn nothing. Worse, if you make a change and instantly score, you will likely think your change made the goal. This is a fallacy. If you want to change something in a match, do it at a defined point. At half time. Play 45 minutes with one player role, 45 with another. For large scale changes, I'd use separate matches.

When you get to competitive games.

1. Analyse the opposition at least a little bit. Where do they concede goals? Where do they score. Think about possible adjustments to exploit this.

2. Watch the game. Especially the first 10 minutes. If you are unsure, watch the entire first 10 minutes. What is working? What is not working? Make changes accordingly. Do not be afraid to make small changes to counter specific threats in a match.

3. React to things that are happening on the pitch. Have you scored? Watch more carefully to see if the opposition has changed something to respond to the goal. If you need to adapt, do so. Have you conceded? Maybe try to go and grab an immediate equalizer.

4. Do not be afraid to completely give up on your preferred style if it does not work. Defend like a Pulis team to hold on to a lead/draw if you have to. Play long balls. Kill the game with time wasting. Whatever. Winning matters most.

5. Use the analysis tools you have. If you are bad at spotting things happening real time (I usually am slow to pick up on them still), use the stats. A player is misplacing a lot of passes? Pause and go have a look why. Player X has 456 long shots? Go find out why by watching replays. You may find a specific problem for one match. Or you may find a systemic problem you need to fix with changes in roles, PIs, TIs, etc.

I have no idea if this is even close to what you wanted (I suspect not, it is not very detailed, but is slightly procedural). To write this up longer would take a huge number of detailed posts.

This is a really good useful post. 

1 hour ago, Armistice said:

Can you put more emphasis on this? I often see this mentioned, but how do you go about planning to score goals exactly? Is it a complex logical though? Is it as simple as "AP makes a through ball to the striker and he scores".

When you create a tactic you must have a rough idea of who is the goalscorer in the system right? Then it's about planning the roles around them to offer support to the player and roles that will actually supply them the ball. I mean, if you want someone to score then you have to plan who gives him the ball and the supply he needs and how right? If not how can he score the goals.

 

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28 minutes ago, Cleon said:

When you create a tactic you must have a rough idea of who is the goalscorer in the system right? Then it's about planning the roles around them to offer support to the player and roles that will actually supply them the ball. I mean, if you want someone to score then you have to plan who gives him the ball and the supply he needs and how right? If not how can he score the goals.

Yeah sounds very logic and in fact simple rather than complicated. However, I believe balancing things out is much harder.

I drew this real quick.

So if we are to take this example, let's say you want the striker to be the main goalscorer like in the picture. Who does offer him support? The inside forward and the advanced playmaker and maybe the box to box. Is this correct? Who supplies him the ball? The playmaker, inside forward and maybe box to box. I didn't mention the winger because I see him in the game dribbling and crossing rather than supporting.

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9 minutes ago, Armistice said:

I didn't mention the winger because I see him in the game dribbling and crossing rather than supporting.

Then what's the point in crossing?  As Cleon said:

49 minutes ago, Cleon said:

if you want someone to score then you have to plan who gives him the ball

Include the winger ;).

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34 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Ok but isn't the winger giving the striker the ball tho? By crossing which is different than what the inside forward and the playmaker do.

Just because it's different what he does doesn't mean it isn't a form of supplying the ball or supporting the player. Is the job of the winger not that of someone who supplies others with the ball by crossing? Having different types of supply is a really good idea in case plan A isn't working, you aren't reliant on just one type of supply. I.e wingers on both sides doing the exact same thing. This would mean that when that doesn't work, the responsibility of the other players, especially central ones, would be huge.

Also, while the IF might supply him the ball, don't lose sight of what the IF is and what it does. By reading the descriptions of the role and duty used along with the settings they have. You'll see that an IF is also a natural goal scoring role. He offers a different kind of support by taking some of the scoring responsibility on and running into the box. This will automatically create space. How much and how well you use that falls on the roles and other settings you've used throughout.

I did a pretty lengthy post on this before that explains in greater detail.

https://teaandbusquets.com/blog/what-makes-a-goalscorer

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18 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Sure, I can give it a go. I will use the example of the formation I am currently playing with, because it has seen a lot of action in the last few months, so I am intimately familiar with it. Let's start with the shape.

base.thumb.png.83f7e12a4043d15de61ce5ca254f681f.png

This is the very basis of everything. No player roles yet, no mentality. Nothing. Right now there are so many possibilities for how you can play, and how you can try to create ways to score. Scoring goals is all about creating space with some players, and having other players moving into space. So how can we create space? Lets have a DLF(S). I usually start this thought process by having one player who I know what I want him to do, then think about what happens. His movement and positioning will make him do this:

baseDLF.thumb.png.c9f140265842a73fa9b7074b1f264d3d.png

So he is trying to create space. Where is this space going to be? Hopefully he is going to drag the central defenders out of shape as someone comes to follow him. So I am hoping to create some central gaps. Who can I put into those gaps? Well, I can try to put one of the wide players into a central position. Or I can try to get a central midfielder to overlap the striker. So that sets two more roles to have. An IF(A), and a CM(A). I will put them on opposite sides, to try to exploit opposite channels.

CMIF.thumb.png.de375184e324b75a978b7ffc99392c5e.png

You can now see I have tried to create a method to score a goal. You could call it two methods, but in reality it relies on the same movement of the DLF. I just have two players on the end of it. You can now imagine that I want to see the DLF drop back into space and get the ball. I want to see him drag the defense out of shape, and then pass the ball to the overlapping IF(A) or CM(A). These players can then either shoot, or they can support each other further with passes. This is the second reason I wanted two overlapping players here. They can also play through balls to each other after the DLF has played them in.

Okay, we still have a lot of players who do not have roles. What are we going to do with them? Well, lets take the other midfielder. He clearly needs to be a more holding player, since we have a movement based player in the center already. What do I need him to do? Well, feed the ball to the DLF. Also be able to take advantage of the DLF creating space without the ball. Or recycle if there is nothing on. I have just described a playmaker to you. DLP(S) is the role I typically use. So we can now definitely add a second type of goal. DLF creates space without actually receiving the ball. The DLP plays a longer pass for the IF(A) or CM(A). I expect this to be less frequent, and will rely on a good playmaker.

At this point we should also note that the IF(A), by cutting inside, is clearing out space on the left flank. Should I try to get a player in there? Absolutely! Let's get an attacking fullback into the left back position.

FB.thumb.png.6889f8788cfb8270d0d8b8ff0de19c71.png

This will create an overload on the left of my attack. The defense will have to send players to their right flank to cover this danger. If my striker also drifts into this region, even better, more overload, more defenders committed. What am I doing this for? Well, this overload on the left has created space on the right. Space where I happen to have a CM(A) running in to. I also have an undefined role on the right. Another IF? You could if you want, but I do not do so. If I flood too many players into the space, the defense may respond by defending with more players. My striker and my CM(A) will be in a position to get the ball in space from a cross here, and possibly the right midfielder. There is another type of goal I could score. That is three. This one is very different to the others, but it actually is a natural extension of my first example.

You note the way I am set up that I can also potentially create exactly the same overlap on the right. Should I? Well, sure. why not. But we have to do it in a different way here, because the CM(A) and IF(A) do not draw defenders in the same way, or occupy the same space. The IF starts higher and arrives earlier in an attack than the CM(A). So lets try something different. Lets have a winger on the right. A supporting winger, because I want him to start deeper to let space develop before he runs with the ball. Who shall we pair with him? For me, this is entirely situational. I can super overload the flank with another FB(A). I can use a FB(D) to give extra cover at the back (I am being very aggressive here).  I could use an IWB to give central support. I use all these, this role is very fluid and depends on the match and the situation. So lets leave him blank.

winger.thumb.png.a3b541628e253a8de5a49bbbe25f9b0a.png

How will this create a goal? Well, crosses to the back post for the IF. Passes for the CM(A). I can also imagine a situation as follows. We create the overload on the left as described above. We disrupt the shape of the defense, but there is not a good crossing chance. The FB recycles the ball to the DLP (he is attracted to the ball so should make himself available). The DLP gets the ball, and quickly plays it wide to the winger. Who will have a crap load of space because of the overload. The defense has to scramble back into position to cover this. A scrambling defense is a defense with space. So the winger can cross and someone can get on the end of it (here the striker actually should get central space as well, he will get forward for that phase). Boom. We have 4 ways to score goals. Or rather, four distinct types of play I would like to see.

If you are wondering for the other roles, I go with two CB(D) and a DM(S) who I use as a pivot and a shield. None of these players are typically involved in my goal scoring.

To summarize this. I have gone from having an idea of how one player plays, to setting up everything else around this. Things follow naturally from imaging creating space with one player. I have four different types of goals I expect; through the DLF to the IF/CM, through the DLP to the IF/CM, through the FB/IF via a cross, and through crosses from the winger from broken play. I do not mention set pieces, but I also spend time to set these up so we can score from them. And never underestimate how many goals a good free kick taker is worth!

You will note I did not even talk about PIs and TIs here. I would use them to refine the behaviour I see, or to try to favour one or another type of play. This is always situational for me. For example, a team having two DMCs is probably going to screw my DLF idea, so I need to prioritize other ways of scoring.

Also note this one single example. It is definitely not the only way to do it. I think it is just difficult to get used to thinking like this. I would make no claim to be an expert at tactics. I have pointed out a few times recently I am pretty bad at spotting patterns of play in real time and knowing how to adjust. I usually get there by trial and error over many, many matches.

One more thing to note. The roles you use for specific positions will also depend on the players you have. If I had left footed wingers, I would reverse the W(S) and IF(A) to take advantage of that. I would not try to use a DLF if my strikers were small, weak and crap at passing.

Anyway, I hope that is somewhat helpful (if long winded and rambling, they are not things I have tried to formulate in words before). These things are something that may deserve their own thread at some point, most likely.

 

Wow, excellent post mate, thanks a lot!

Also thanks to Cleon and herne who helped me with the example I posted.

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@Armistice

Just as a different example, below is how I've been using a 4231 recently.

This time I have a very attacking striker and because he's pushing up, my AMC is given a support duty to help get him into the space the striker is creating - the space will be in front of the defence in this example.  At the same time the IF is giving another option to the AMC to pick up the ball and run at the defence.  Whereas the winger on the other flank is offering yet another option and point of attack by using some width and getting crosses in.

Of course I could still use a support duty striker but with that I may want to use an attack minded AMC to run beyond the striker into the space being created (which would now be behind the defence).

So lots of different ways to set things up with a variety of attacking options and how you do set up may typically be driven by the players you have available.  For example if I don't have a player with great dribbling and attacking skills I may not want to set an attacking Inside Forward.  Or if nobody on my team can cross a ball, why use a Winger.

5.png

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3 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

1. Identify the formation. This can be decided based on the players I have, or my own preference. Both are valid. Typically I go with personal choice when I have very good players, and decide based on the squad when they are not so talented.

I would argue the opposite, with a top side I would go for the style that is best suited for its key players because the higher up you are, these players are that much harder to replace, and for more than one reason. In fact, quite often building upon that core squad of players is the very reason I picked that team in the first place.

With a weaker side you may temporarily be forced to adjust your tactics, but within 2-3 transfer windows you should be able to bring in players suitable for any style.

3 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

2. How do I want to play? Possession? Direct? What is the ultimate style I want. Here you have to factor in whether your players are able to pull this off. A bunch of lazy unfit players are going to suck at a high pressing game. A team without pace may struggle to counter. You get the idea.

This is certainly a valid point from a squad building point of view as well. Short-term you may need to put up with some some less than suitable players, you may need to compromise and adjust your tactic here and there to accommodate them, it's not the end of the world. But you do need a vision, something to guide your recruitment policy and youth development.

5 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

3. Player roles. This links back to the first 2 points. I want roles to encourage my style of play, that fits the formation. You should take into account:

  • How each role is supported by others.
  • Do I have the players to play here? No point having a left winger if everyone in your team is right footed.
  • How do I plan to score my goals.

I could not agree more, and one mistake you often see in help request threads is players getting too hung up on those pesky green circles. I have to admit that when you're first starting out it's very tempting to assign every player what the game tells you it's their best role. But that will not only leave you with a tactic that's disconnected, but once you figure how the game determines those ratings you realize that taking them as scripture will essentially lock you out many useful roles. Veratti is not a full green circle Regista and neither is Thomas Muller a Raumdeuter, even though their attributes are spot on for the roles. Generally speaking, if two roles share key attributes, then the game will rate a player higher in the role requiring fewer of them.

6 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

4. TIs and PIs. TIs should be based around your style of play. I tend to go minimalist at the start, adding only ones I really think are useful. I can and do add more over time. PIs I will do the same. Things I really know I want (pressing for forwards, for instance) I add. Everything else can be added later.

To continue my critique of role ratings and key attributes, it's also important to point out that the game is making these recommendations with the default tactical settings in mind. TIs, PIs, OIs or PPMs, all go on to skew the attributes required to perform on the pitch, for some roles to the point where they are unrecognizable for the ones the game highlights. It may sound obvious that a high pressing style will drive the value of stamina or workrate through the roof for all roles, trequartistas and registas included. But this can also happen in more subtle ways, say an overlap instruction increasing the value of balance and composure for an inside forward, to the detriment of acceleration and dribbling.

@sporadicsmiles Hope my replies don't come off as criticism directed at you. Your post was in fact very informative and I used it as an starting point to share my thoughts on the squad building aspect of creating a tactic.

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6 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Here is how I go about tactical design. I will note that I do not believe in a "best" tactic with "best" roles though. So much of football is situational. What is best for losing 1-0 with 15 minutes to go is not the same as what is best when protecting a 1 minute lead with 15 minutes to go. And what is best when playing Crapington United will not be best when playing BestTeamEver Town. So this is how I go about designing, and using my tactics. 

1. Identify the formation. This can be decided based on the players I have, or my own preference. Both are valid. Typically I go with personal choice when I have very good players, and decide based on the squad when they are not so talented.

2. How do I want to play? Possession? Direct? What is the ultimate style I want. Here you have to factor in whether your players are able to pull this off. A bunch of lazy unfit players are going to suck at a high pressing game. A team without pace may struggle to counter. You get the idea.

3. Player roles. This links back to the first 2 points. I want roles to encourage my style of play, that fits the formation. You should take into account:

  • How each role is supported by others.
  • Do I have the players to play here? No point having a left winger if everyone in your team is right footed.
  • How do I plan to score my goals.

4. TIs and PIs. TIs should be based around your style of play. I tend to go minimalist at the start, adding only ones I really think are useful. I can and do add more over time. PIs I will do the same. Things I really know I want (pressing for forwards, for instance) I add. Everything else can be added later.

That is the initial design. Tactical analysis in preseason is sketchy. Your players do not care so much. AI players do not care so much. People are unfit. They are not used to the tactic. They are not used to each other. So do not lean to heavily. Some general rules I have for this:

1. You should be able to beat weaker teams comfortably. If you are not seeing this, you will also likely struggle against better teams. This is a big red flag to either reevaluate the steps above, or to change things within your framework.

2. Preseason is about fitness and about moral. I always play weaker teams that I expect to beat easily. I do not expect to learn tactically from games against bigger teams. It can give a false sense of security to win. Get players fit and get them happy.

3. In games, you should be looking for patterns in the play. How do my players link up? Am I creating the chances I thought about above? Where is my play being channeled? What do I see that I dislike? Do not get hung up on individual errors, crappy passing, etc. It is preseason. Look that your tactic is doing roughly what it should.

4. If you are going to make changes, do it match to match. Do not try 15 things in a single match. You will learn nothing. Worse, if you make a change and instantly score, you will likely think your change made the goal. This is a fallacy. If you want to change something in a match, do it at a defined point. At half time. Play 45 minutes with one player role, 45 with another. For large scale changes, I'd use separate matches.

When you get to competitive games.

1. Analyse the opposition at least a little bit. Where do they concede goals? Where do they score. Think about possible adjustments to exploit this.

2. Watch the game. Especially the first 10 minutes. If you are unsure, watch the entire first 10 minutes. What is working? What is not working? Make changes accordingly. Do not be afraid to make small changes to counter specific threats in a match.

3. React to things that are happening on the pitch. Have you scored? Watch more carefully to see if the opposition has changed something to respond to the goal. If you need to adapt, do so. Have you conceded? Maybe try to go and grab an immediate equalizer.

4. Do not be afraid to completely give up on your preferred style if it does not work. Defend like a Pulis team to hold on to a lead/draw if you have to. Play long balls. Kill the game with time wasting. Whatever. Winning matters most.

5. Use the analysis tools you have. If you are bad at spotting things happening real time (I usually am slow to pick up on them still), use the stats. A player is misplacing a lot of passes? Pause and go have a look why. Player X has 456 long shots? Go find out why by watching replays. You may find a specific problem for one match. Or you may find a systemic problem you need to fix with changes in roles, PIs, TIs, etc.

I have no idea if this is even close to what you wanted (I suspect not, it is not very detailed, but is slightly procedural). To write this up longer would take a huge number of detailed posts.

Hi @sporadicsmiles. Thank you for putting the effort into this post - it is exactly what I am looking for and will give it a try as soon as possible. On another hand it does seem like a gargantual amount of time and effort I might not have at dispossal all the time. Anyways, based on your post, could you help me clarify some things I always feel confused with:

- "How each role is supported by the other" - Tbh the description of roles in the game is the laziest thing they could pull off. Every single one of them is extremely generic and there is no information whatsoever on how roles link up together (you really have to grind up matches in full mode to find out). And then you have PPM's which could potentially completely shift how a player plays his role. As a side note, I believe that if you'd tell one of your players in real life to not shoot from distance at all cost he would do all he can not to - but in FM these instructions seem taken as jokes.

- "How do I plan to score my goals." - I always try to identify the style of play, the build up and the scorer. I setup the tactics, try a few matches, it's nowhere near that. Then I find myself back into the loophole of trying everything that works.

- "Watch the game" - That is what I would really like to avoid. I usually play it on "key" or "extended" but anything more than that seems unachievable for me. I don't mind the tactics being so complex but I would then really like some better tools that would make the grinding a bit more smoother and enjoyable (e.g. better assistant suggetions and insights, better feed of that information, better ways of understanding how your team links up even before the game begins - maybe more visual).

- "Use the analysis tools you have" - The analysis (at least in touch) is not the best user friendly tool there is. It also provides way to much irrelevant information for how difficult it is to use so I rarely bother check it out. 

Aside from that, I plan to start a new game (hopefully this weekend) and will give your methods a try. I plan to start simple and be more patient. Let's see how much it lasts! :)

Cheers,
Robert

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35 minutes ago, herne79 said:

@Armistice

Just as a different example, below is how I've been using a 4231 recently.

This time I have a very attacking striker and because he's pushing up, my AMC is given a support duty to help get him into the space the striker is creating - the space will be in front of the defence in this example.  At the same time the IF is giving another option to the AMC to pick up the ball and run at the defence.  Whereas the winger on the other flank is offering yet another option and point of attack by using some width and getting crosses in.

Of course I could still use a support duty striker but with that I may want to use an attack minded AMC to run beyond the striker into the space being created (which would now be behind the defence).

So lots of different ways to set things up with a variety of attacking options and how you do set up may typically be driven by the players you have available.  For example if I don't have a player with great dribbling and attacking skills I may not want to set an attacking Inside Forward.  Or if nobody on my team can cross a ball, why use a Winger.

5.png

Yeah I was looking at something similar. It’s funny how until recently I would have never found myself using an attacking striker because I thought he would be isolated or not have enough space. That until Cleon told me to forget everything I knew about tactics and start from 0. I still have a few preconceptions about certain formations and roles & duties combinations but I am trying to remove them from my thoughts. It’s difficult, like an habit. :D

 

Also the way you and @sporadicsmiles explained your process of creating a tactic is similar to mine, but I thought that was not enough.

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24 minutes ago, ontiu17 said:

- "How each role is supported by the other" - Tbh the description of roles in the game is the laziest thing they could pull off. Every single one of them is extremely generic and there is no information whatsoever on how roles link up together (you really have to grind up matches in full mode to find out). And then you have PPM's which could potentially completely shift how a player plays his role. As a side note, I believe that if you'd tell one of your players in real life to not shoot from distance at all cost he would do all he can not to - but in FM these instructions seem taken as jokes.

Lazy is too harsh, the descriptions are generally accurate - for the default settings that is.

But you are correct when you point out that PPMs, among others, can radically shift the way a role plays out. A BBM with gets into opposition area and gets forward PPMs is going to be completely different beast from one who stays back and dives into tackles or one with comes deep to get ball and runs with ball through centre.

31 minutes ago, ontiu17 said:

- "Watch the game" - That is what I would really like to avoid. I usually play it on "key" or "extended" but anything more than that seems unachievable for me. I don't mind the tactics being so complex but I would then really like some better tools that would make the grinding a bit more smoother and enjoyable (e.g. better assistant suggetions and insights, better feed of that information, better ways of understanding how your team links up even before the game begins - maybe more visual).

It may not be what you want to hear, but especially when starting out, I can't think of anything else that can replace watching your players play on the pitch. Highlights are not enough, because often you need to figure out where does your play fall apart and why stops if from becoming a highlight in the first place.

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Some fantastic advice there I was just wondering do people use opposition instructions to mark certain players etc as I read somewhere it can have a big negative effect on your defensive structure as it can pull your players out of position 

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1 hour ago, SD said:

I would argue the opposite, with a top side I would go for the style that is best suited for its key players because the higher up you are, these players are that much harder to replace, and for more than one reason. In fact, quite often building upon that core squad of players is the very reason I picked that team in the first place.

With a weaker side you may temporarily be forced to adjust your tactics, but within 2-3 transfer windows you should be able to bring in players suitable for any style.

Totally fine as well. I do not think there is a right way to do things. I can only talk about my own preferences for doing things. I typically find that better players can play well in many roles because they are good. Poorer players tend to be more specialised. However, as you note, you can argue it either way. I think it is one of the difficulties in explaining to someone "how to play", there is no correct way to play. You can only really point out the really wrong things.

 

1 hour ago, SD said:

This is certainly a valid point from a squad building point of view as well. Short-term you may need to put up with some some less than suitable players, you may need to compromise and adjust your tactic here and there to accommodate them, it's not the end of the world. But you do need a vision, something to guide your recruitment policy and youth development.

I agree wholeheartedly. I was writing from the position of taking over a team knowing I could implement what I wanted. Of course it will normally take a while to impose a style. 

 

1 hour ago, SD said:

I could not agree more, and one mistake you often see in help request threads is players getting too hung up on those pesky green circles. I have to admit that when you're first starting out it's very tempting to assign every player what the game tells you it's their best role. But that will not only leave you with a tactic that's disconnected, but once you figure how the game determines those ratings you realize that taking them as scripture will essentially lock you out many useful roles. Veratti is not a full green circle Regista and neither is Thomas Muller a Raumdeuter, even though their attributes are spot on for the roles. Generally speaking, if two roles share key attributes, then the game will rate a player higher in the role requiring fewer of them.

Yes, exactly. I ignore these green circles and use my eyes. Right now I am playing James Maddison as a CM(A). I think he has less than 50% of his circle, so he is orange. This would put people off, but he works well because he has the attributes I want from him. This can be more difficult to spot though for a beginner. 

1 hour ago, SD said:

@sporadicsmiles Hope my replies don't come off as criticism directed at you. Your post was in fact very informative and I used it as an starting point to share my thoughts on the squad building aspect of creating a tactic.

No need to worry about that. I value discussion, it is how people learn new things. The more people who contribute and can share their ideas, or take new ideas. I actually think it is good to have people discuss ideas, because it is far too easy to have things written on a forum like this taken as gospel and copied without thought. 

1 hour ago, ontiu17 said:

- "How each role is supported by the other" - Tbh the description of roles in the game is the laziest thing they could pull off. Every single one of them is extremely generic and there is no information whatsoever on how roles link up together (you really have to grind up matches in full mode to find out). And then you have PPM's which could potentially completely shift how a player plays his role. As a side note, I believe that if you'd tell one of your players in real life to not shoot from distance at all cost he would do all he can not to - but in FM these instructions seem taken as jokes.

 

Yeah the roles descriptions can be pretty lax. I will admit that I have played for long enough that I already know what to expect from roles. I have forgotten what it is like not to know, so it is difficult to go back to the very basics including realising people do not have the same knowledge as myself. I do think you can understand the basics from the descriptions though. Try to look at it from the other direction. What do you want the players to do, and which role seems best. Typically, if you do this, you will already be somewhere close to what you want. I did a lot more detail than is perhaps necessary here. I like to spend a lot of time playing, when I have the time. I am sure it is possible to play just as well without devoting so much time. I am just not the guy to help there!

 

1 hour ago, ontiu17 said:

 - "How do I plan to score my goals." - I always try to identify the style of play, the build up and the scorer. I setup the tactics, try a few matches, it's nowhere near that. Then I find myself back into the loophole of trying everything that works.

One thing I did not mention here was that the majority of attacks will fail. So you will mostly see things not working. That is just football, it is a low scoring game. This is why I use preseason to make sure I can actually see the type of build up play I want. If it is absent in preseason, it will be absent in general. This is really what I am doing when I test new things in preseason, I'm watching how players move. How they interact. How we create chances. Sometimes ideas do not work, though. Even if they look good on paper. The one thing I would avoid is changing things constantly. Football is a slow game, you need time to see if something works or not. It is tricky because it relies on the ability to spot what is happening.

2 hours ago, ontiu17 said:

 - "Watch the game" - That is what I would really like to avoid. I usually play it on "key" or "extended" but anything more than that seems unachievable for me. I don't mind the tactics being so complex but I would then really like some better tools that would make the grinding a bit more smoother and enjoyable (e.g. better assistant suggetions and insights, better feed of that information, better ways of understanding how your team links up even before the game begins - maybe more visual).

At least at the start, you may have to watch some games. Once you know your tactic, you can reduce. These days I can know things are fine and I will score, so I go to commentary only until we actually do. Honestly, I do not think you can play the game entirely without watching some football. I do not watch huge chunks of games on full highlights though. I'm sure there is a balance to be found.

Good luck with the game! I find that the set up and getting going can be a drag sometimes, but once I am going I can easily get sucked in.

 

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50 minutes ago, Ciderarmy said:

Some fantastic advice there I was just wondering do people use opposition instructions to mark certain players etc as I read somewhere it can have a big negative effect on your defensive structure as it can pull your players out of position 

I actually use them pretty extensively, which I think is pretty uncommon. Mostly, however, to set generic pressing traps. I like to tell my players to close down more, and I also want to tell them who to close down. 

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Hello guys.

So I managed to put in some hours of play today. I decided to load up one of my Chelsea save games where I would get to start a new season in 2020/2021. I already got a number of good players I bought earlier so I just wanted to fiddle with the tactics and follow the methods I've been reading here.

The team

As you can see I already got an experienced world class attack supported by a strong, physical midfield. The defence is probably not world class but it was not something I was eager to spend my money on.

chelsea.thumb.PNG.6c8f6ff61ed4bc8030cf4090ae44d664.PNG

The mission

- Considering the number of very technical and creative players I would like my team to be able to control possesion (I expect to have around 60% vs mid table teams).

- I would like Griezman to be my main goalscorer as he seems the most profilic striker I have in the team right now (+20 league goals would be awesome)

- I would like to get good stats and rating out of Hazard and Insigne having them suply Griezman in my quest of making him the top goalscorer (anything under 7.40 overall rating is unacceptable)

The tactics

The implementation was a bit of a hassle. I wanted to create a mix between the "Control possesion" and "Tiki taka" presets. Attacking wise, my idea was that Insigne would drop into midfield creating space for Griezman and Savic to run into. Hazard is supposed to stay wider and dribble his way past the fullbacks before attempting to cross or shoot/pass if he cuts inside. Other players are supposed to support and cover.

The struggle

I currently played around 4 games. Had a 4-1 win against an Arsenal who's predicted 6th (53% pos, 1 CCC) but they mostly played defensive. A 3-2 loss at Everton after leading 2-0 (58% pos, 0 CCC). A 5-0 vs Preston who are relegation favorites (60% pos, 0 CCC, but 13/30 shots on target). And then it all came back - the old hassle of not understanding anything of what's going with the game: Leicester - Chelsea.

My main problem with this game is that I simply cannot get the possesion I'm aiming for not even have any CCC. I decided to spin up the game several times, fiddle with the roles and try to get something that would make my team consistent at keeping possesion every game (at least vs mid to low table teams). I've been running the game 10-20 times, always drawing or winning by a goal or two that was either a long shot or a set piece. I was conceding 60% possesion in most games, some I got around 50-50 but I never really managed to get what I want! (my idea of how I want my team to play)

leicester-report.thumb.PNG.e405d4e39bab1043fff8265211dfc33a.PNG

match-overview.thumb.PNG.6cbb1db077b554e718f77334f7c59613.PNG

match-stats.thumb.PNG.3ab53ce0312939cb70fa09b129baa352.PNG

 

The issues

- Cannot consistently keep possesion vs weaker teams 

- Cannot create chances (I did manage to limit the long shots but never seem to create good ones while opposition tends to have 2+ every game)

- The front 3 tend to become inconsistent (although so far they played fairly well). Long story short, both Griezman and Insigne were getting ~7.50 ratings at the AI clubs but I can't seem to get that out of them (previous season I got 7.22 respectively 7.20 ratings out of them)

PS: If you ask why ratings are so important to me is because I usually aim to get a Golden Ball player when I'm managing high tier teams.

Back to the drawing board

I am currently out of ideas and I'm going to hang my boots for this weekend, however I would really appreciate your input on how do you see best on implementing what I want. Also I found it quite hard on finding the best positions/roles for my front 3 so I can get them to consistently play well and have Griezman score as many as possible.

Looking forward to hearing your suggestions.

Cheers,

Robert

PS: The issues I mentioned are not observed based on this 4 games. These were also the reason I abbandoned this save game after 2 seasons in the first place. I would really like to get the best of my star players and being unable to achieve that frustrates me to the roof. Hope that makes things a bit more clearer.

Edited by ontiu17
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51 minutes ago, ontiu17 said:

I currently played around 4 games. Had a 4-1 win against an Arsenal who's predicted 6th (53% pos, 1 CCC) but they mostly played defensive. A 3-2 loss at Everton after leading 2-0 (58% pos, 0 CCC). A 5-0 vs Preston who are relegation favorites (60% pos, 0 CCC, but 13/30 shots on target). And then it all came back - the old hassle of not understanding anything of what's going with the game: Leicester - Chelsea.

I have to admit that I do not understand. You value possession more than goals and victories? I would be delighted with the result you got against Leicester. A simple win against a team who were probably playing for a draw or a smash and grab. Possession for the sake of it is...extremely overrated. But if that is what you want, here are some things I can note. 

- Positive mentality means more risks, which means giving the ball away more often due to risky passing. Be more expressive will likely make that worse. I do not think either of these are terrible conducive to have very high possession numbers.

- low tempo + short passing. This is counteracting the instructions above to some degree. Actually positive mentality + shorter passing + lower tempo (or one of them, I'd suggest reading Herne's thread on possession football) can help possession. All these together... I have no idea what they would actually end up doing. 

- Hazard is surely wasted as a winger? You could easily build the team around him as a playmaker coming in from the flank. 

That is what I spot tactically. What we do not know is why you did not have possession. Were Leicester playing very deep and you did not get enough pressure on their back line? Were you giving away the ball too cheaply when you had it? Were Leicester just kicking your players and giving away free kicks? This is one of the time where it is impossible to tell. By the way, you absolutely battered Leicester in this match. Ignore possession. You created more chances, had better shots (5/6 from Leicester were long shots).

This is honestly not even a game I would worry about. So the possession is lower than expected. It is a single game. There are so many factors that could lead to this. I mean, maybe Leicester just like to pass the ball around as much as you.

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@ontiu17

Of your 10 outfield players, 7 are on support.  Just 1 player (Griezeman) is making a run into the opposition area,  The box to box midfielder should run literally from box to box, D to D, he's not an attack role.  Support players tend to occupy the same general area, so your creative players get bunched and the defence is allowed to get compact. The bunching affect is making it difficult to supply penetrating passes and they end up being forced or wasted.

Look also at Leicester's formation with two deep holding players in the centre,  Now look at how many support players, including your playmaker you have centrally.  It's four.  Then your in possession TI on top of play narrow.  Stalemate.

Against Leicester it may have been beneficial to have had your playmaker at AML or AMR in a less congested and contested area of the pitch.  Just as Sporadicsmiles earlier suggested you attack from different lines so your creativity also needs to be on different vertical and even horizontal lines. 

Edited by Robson 07
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I would play pretty much differently with your 11 guys. In my system, Sergej would be a mezzala on attack duty, which would mean Azpi becomes an IWB on defend. Havertz would have to remain an AP on support, but only because he does not have the attributes to be a DLP on support (in fact, I would use a different type of player in that position, but if your choice is Havertz, then okay). Fortunately, Kante is a world-class DM that should be good enough defensively to cover for the two in front of him. 

As for the front three, I don't see Hazard as a winger at all. If I played him on the right flank along with Insigne in AML and Griezmann as the lone striker, I would most probably use him as an IF on support, in order - among other things - to get some nice interplay between him and Sergej as the attacking mezzala. Griezmann's role would vary beetween a trequartista and F9, while Insigne's would vary between an IF on attack and RMD.

Regarding team instructions, I would definitely use the counter in transition, especially when having the kind of players you have up front, who all have great speed, agility, movement and football intelligence overall. However, I would be very careful with the use of counter-press.

In possession, both shorter passing and low(er) tempo at the same time is a clear overkill. With so good players, you can comfortably play even on higher tempo, but given that you insist so much on possession - normal (default) tempo should be okay.

When managing a top team like Chelsea, against which most sides will look to defend very tightly, fairly narrow width is highly unlikely to help you break them down, because you are focusing attacks through the area where opposition defenses are leaving almost no space. I would therefore avoid narrow width (either normal/default or wider).

The "Be more expressive" is an instructions I personally would gladly use if managing Chelsea, but - as @sporadicsmiles rightly pointed out - it might to some extent run counter to your desire to have a lot of possession (for the sake of it).

Then would come some slight tweaks, based on what I observe on the pitch during a particular match (e.g. sometimes I may add underlap right to get Azpi closer to Sergej and Hazard, but in that case Kante's duty would likely need to be changed to defend, so that defensive cover and balanced would be preserved).

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14 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

Some fantastic advice there I was just wondering do people use opposition instructions to mark certain players etc as I read somewhere it can have a big negative effect on your defensive structure as it can pull your players out of position 

I don't bother marking opposite players out of the game, cos i honestly feel that tactically i should be able to shut them out anyway.

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Hmm what I would honestly do is to forget about possession for a bit and get the basics right first. That’s creating and the attacking patterns you wish to see. You said you want Griezmann to be your main goalscorer. Fair enough, an IF on attack could do that. Remember that putting all eggs in a basket can be a risky strategy. What if Griezmann is marked out of the game? What if he has a bad game? Who’s going to score the goals for you? Insigne? His main role is about creating space for others. Hazard? His main role is to dribble and cross. But for who does he cross exactly? Insigne drops deep, Griezmann is likely to be marked by the oppo’s defenders and he’s not the tallest fella in the world either. So are the benefits of a winger then in this system?

So far, we have Insigne dropping deep and creating space. We have Griezmann attacking the space. We have Hazard dribbling and crossing.

 

In midfield we have a playmaker who will likely have limited space, a box to box who will arrive late in the box (keyword late, you can watch him during games and decide if that’s how you want him to play) and a defensive midfielder on support. As someone said earlier, all these players on support will likely be stacking in a small pocket of space. So how do you go about spreading them a bit the field in order to stretch the opponent vertically?

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11 hours ago, ontiu17 said:

My main problem with this game is that I simply cannot get the possesion I'm aiming for not even have any CCC. 

Remember FM possession is worked out differently than RL. In RL its just number of passes whilst FM is time based, so playing slow increases the possession a lot.  Weaker teams on low risk mentalities can easily keep possession, especially if your getting men behind the ball as there low risk mentality will allow them to play backwards more often than higher mentalities.

In a 4141 DM Wide, even if on a high mentality with high LOE and D-line can struggle to force opponents with DM (or two) plus defenders from passing it around.  I'd say that formation is made more for quick attacks from deeper.  Pushing that DM up can help force defensive opposition to try to progress the ball sooner by taking away the safer passes and leaving a bit more space for them to try to attack.

By the sounds of it, you want to play your way and force teams to adapt, but your being a bit cautious so not forcing opponents who want to be safe into mistakes. 

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Hello. Back again. Thanks for your help. So, the Leicester - Chelsea match is not about getting the result but more about me being able to implement the system I'm aiming for. And how harder should it get with the players I have especially when playing vs a bottom table team? 

So, I made a few adjustments based on your suggestions (don't worry about tactical familiarity as that is not really a thing in touch):

chelsea.thumb.PNG.eeb0fe259eaf3d02f07b48694aae5180.PNG

And here are the results:

match-overview.thumb.PNG.b1b98c275c0ca0fdc317bb76dad2ab37.PNG

match-stats.thumb.PNG.60478f9cca45906d15b5c731de6db0ae.PNG

Not only do they manage to outposses me they are also shutting down both my attacking 3 and my midfield. How is it possible for a team like Leicester to both keep hold of the ball and also shut down my attack?

8 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

In a 4141 DM Wide, even if on a high mentality with high LOE and D-line can struggle to force opponents with DM (or two) plus defenders from passing it around.  I'd say that formation is made more for quick attacks from deeper.  Pushing that DM up can help force defensive opposition to try to progress the ball sooner by taking away the safer passes and leaving a bit more space for them to try to attack.

Would you suggest "Counter press" and more higher + more urgent engagement? It seems that people have mixed feelings about this here. I'm getting more and more confused about it and it is frustrating as hell.

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@ontiu17 If all you want for the time being is possession, have a read through my tiki taka thread.  It's all laid out step by step (read the blue highlighted posts on the first and second pages).

It's just a starting point and you can remove things to improve penetration once you have improved your possession.

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2 hours ago, ontiu17 said:

Would you suggest "Counter press" and more higher + more urgent engagement? It seems that people have mixed feelings about this here. I'm getting more and more confused about it and it is frustrating as hell.

For me its more about the formation than instructions. Why do you want to use 4141 DM Wide? Its quite defensive so even if increasing LOE and urgency they have to push up and close down from deeper positions.  Even if told to, how good are the players at putting in the effort to get stuck in?

Counter Press can help put immediate pressure on opponents when you have players pushed up attacking.

You'll get mixed views as it depends on the system AND players.  We have to make assumptions based on what were told and what we expect based on our experiences and knowledge.  

If your focused on possession percentage there's two sides to it, are you winning it back quick enough and then are you losing it too quick? As Herne says, if you must have that stat be good focus on that then try to improve the chance creation. I know you've had advice to use more attack duties yo increase penetration but maybe you should use ones that have fewer risks to keep possession more.  P-A, DLF-A and PF-A for example all have forward runs often and a riskier mentality but try dribble and risky passes not as often and dont roam around as much. Maybe CM-A instead of MEZ adds some patience but still getting a deeper player forward.  You need the roles+duties to create the style you want, the more risks and urgency you have, the less possession you can expect, this is then modified by the teams mentality and instructions.

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Hi @herne79 - thanks for the link, it was a very good reading. I know you insisted on people not copying your tactic however I'm looking for a minimal framework that would allow me to keep possesion. Therefore I used your basic idea and implementation with minor tweaks to suit my players.

PS: Having a minimal framework that already works would give me the chance of trying to understand why it works. Right now I'm just stuck in a limbo trying to achieve what apparently seems impossible.

chelsea.thumb.PNG.e9f2c5f07e501172c4537a8273e3743f.PNG

I have to mention that I specifically used your PI's for all my roles although I reckon I should not take for granted that'd work with my players.

So, the results:

match-overview.thumb.PNG.287c70d99fd4d064ecee4e274a643a33.PNG

match-stats.thumb.PNG.b516b18621fd05f281f972dadffb7876.PNG

 

As you can see, I am still unable to achieve possesion. Looking at the game in full mode I observed these things:

- Leicester passes very easily both on their own half as well as in the midfield and decently well in their attacking third. No matter how much my midfields commit with pressing they always seem to find the proper pass. (as you can see they managed 510/608 passes which is 1.5 times more than I managed to)

- They press high up the pitch. What I noticed is that I struggle to penetrate with short passes and what happens is the ball gets to my CD's, they pass back to the GK and then he blats the ball forward which results in a lost ball (that's odd because I specifically instructed short distribution and also tried assigning him "less risk" PI)

- My players try to use the wings to penetrate (Hazard and Insigne) but what happens is that they always attempt to dribble but never get past their man (even on one-on-ones)

- I initially thought that they are rushing penetration so I switch to lower tempo + normal passing but that just results in a bit more passing in the midfield followed up by a blast through ball forward which ends up with nothing.

- I tried the AP (a) + IWB (s) on a balanced mentality but that didn't result in anything better really

Why:

- is Leicester so good and so composed at passing the ball even when under constant pressure from my mids?

- my players are so badly intimated by their pressing? They ultimately have so much better stats that it should be enough to help us keep possesion and get past high pressuring attempts.

How:

- do I combat their high pressuring strategy so I can ultimately have possesion?

- do I stop their very good passing and win the ball back asap?

 

Cheers,

Robert

 

Edited by ontiu17
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If anybody is willing to take a challenge, I uploaded the save game on my google drive (keep in mind this is for Touch):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FefMXMSLXLIW2sB6gri3OHumekwPo_Zk/view?usp=sharing

The objective

Get +60% possesion in the match against Leicester

Bonus: Score at least 2 goals from action (through balls, crosses, individual action). I would rule out long shots since they are so OP this version of the game.

Keep me posted if you succeed. I'm very much looking forward to end my agony :)

Cheers,

Robert

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Possession-wise - in addition to using Herne's recipe (which is great for that style of football) - another couple of things you can/should try are:

- use what Rashidi calls "split block/press". That is, maximize pressing urgency for your 3-4 most advanced players in their player instructions. In your tactic, these would include the front three plus Sergej as the non-playmaking CM

- add the "Prevent short GKD" TI, to try and prevent the opposition from building from the back and force them into playing speculative long balls forward, which your defense should (hopefully) deal with successfully

But bear in mind that your tactic (even without these tweaks) already entails a relatively high level of defensive risk.

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Oh, I've just noticed that you removed the "Play out of defence". Take it back, because it's vital for possession-based football (and btw could well be the reason your GK tended to hoof the ball forward even though he was told to take fewer risks).

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I whish someone would ever be able to provide a tactic based on a more complex style of play to break down defensive sites (which "possession football" is about) that actually works not only on paper but also ingame. And i honestly fear that the answer to all our questions is way more easy then we all think - the ME simply is not able to execute complex pattern of play. Exceptional Teams like Chelsea, ManC, Bayern, Barca whoever... doesnt need plenty of space or whatever to create chances from indiviual skill because this is why they are better then others, they can break down defensive sites with individual skill and more complex passing patterns.

Feel free to prove me wrong and come up with a tactic for a top team of your choice that is able to produce around 600 passes a game and actually scores from play.

And please, as often as i read about attributes players are not suitable and so on. Guys, these Teams are actually averaging the top attributes of their leagues with a few exceptions. The Teams and Players should be able to execute most of the tactical styles and roles. If you dispute this, how can relegation sides barely ever even hit the ball or run.

Though i think everyone is appreciating a lot all the good posts about football or general help.

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33 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Possession-wise - in addition to using Herne's recipe (which is great for that style of football) - another couple of things you can/should try are:

- use what Rashidi calls "split block/press". That is, maximize pressing urgency for your 3-4 most advanced players in their player instructions. In your tactic, these would include the front three plus Sergej as the non-playmaking CM

- add the "Prevent short GKD" TI, to try and prevent the opposition from building from the back and force them into playing speculative long balls forward, which your defense should (hopefully) deal with successfully

But bear in mind that your tactic (even without these tweaks) already entails a relatively high level of defensive risk.

How do you do it? 

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29 minutes ago, PequenoGenio said:

How do you do it? 

Split block? It's simple. Select a particular player or role, click on the "Edit" button, and then just manually maximize his pressing level on the appropriate bar). And then do the same with other players you want to do maximum pressing.

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6 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Split block? It's simple. Select a particular player or role, click on the "Edit" button, and then just manually maximize his pressing level on the appropriate bar). And then do the same with other players you want to do maximum pressing.

But in some roles that can't be done i'm i right? It appears from default (IF(a)-less urgent) and it can´t be changed

Edited by PequenoGenio
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7 minutes ago, PequenoGenio said:

But in some roles that can't be done i'm i right? It appears from default (IF(a)-less urgent) and it can´t be changed

Depends on the pressing team instruction. I think if your team pressing intensity is set to higher (i.e. more or extremely urgent), then you cannot increase it further for certain roles or positions, because it's already on the max level (even if the game mistakenly labels it as "less urgent").

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9 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Depends on the pressing team instruction. I think if your team pressing intensity is set to higher (i.e. more or extremely urgent), then you cannot increase it further for certain roles or positions, because it's already on the max level (even if the game mistakenly labels it as "less urgent").

Oh now i get it.... 

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16 hours ago, ontiu17 said:

If anybody is willing to take a challenge, I uploaded the save game on my google drive (keep in mind this is for Touch):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FefMXMSLXLIW2sB6gri3OHumekwPo_Zk/view?usp=sharing

The objective

Get +60% possesion in the match against Leicester

Bonus: Score at least 2 goals from action (through balls, crosses, individual action). I would rule out long shots since they are so OP this version of the game.

Keep me posted if you succeed. I'm very much looking forward to end my agony :)

Cheers,

Robert

I don't understand this obsession with possession. Possession without purpose is pointless. When i want to dominate possession i am specifically focused on Action Zones, and where that possession is.

1156735577_Screenshot2019-03-30at2_10_52PM.thumb.png.8035583ca99e83abfba1765293471590.png

The action zones tell me all i need to know. We hardly spend any of the time in our own half. Nearly the entirety of the match was played in the opposition half.  This was done on very attacking mentality, i could easily have opted to play on a lower mentality to get possession numbers even higher, but i couldn't be bothered. We were already dominating possession moving the ball with urgency and breaking lines so quickly the defence could never recover.

1139743666_Actionzone.thumb.jpg.29a4d8d6636459e538ab0c116eb67c93.jpg

With my weaker side Stalybridge we can generate 600 passes a game do decent amounts of possession, playing on very attacking mentality and still rip sides open.

56870903_StalyvsChelsea.thumb.jpg.a41261d12a08970216dc27e406837477.jpg

The stats here my point to what looks like a decent game of possession but when you look at the action zones, it basically says a different story

StalyvsChelseas.thumb.jpg.ca20e2e1cafda6da2c54c5c26dc8824c.jpg

Here the action zones tell you a different story, this was an even game. We controlled the ball in midfield but both sides were spending about equal time attacking each others boxes. Again this match was played on very attacking mentality. Here though the quality of play in the final third was the difference

 

With this system i knew what i wanted. Liverpool and Staly, two very different sides were going to use the same system. The system requires us to dominate possession, but in very specific areas of the pitch. We want possession to help us achieve our second goal which is the splitting of defences. In order for us to do that we need to have a specific tactical shape in the consolidation phase - almost identical to Guardiola's City. 

Then we approach the game in an identical fashion to Guardiola by trying to control a very specific zone on the pitch. This is for when we camp. However there are times when we need to get our boys to bring the ball forward and break through lines forcing teams on the backfoot. We also want our keeper to play a big part in recycling possession and launching attacks when sides press us higher up the pitch. That move in the gif you saw when he had our winger running at the defence was intentional.

There are times when he runs from deep and there are times when he starts out from a wider position to receive the ball and cut inside before pulling 4 players to him. Again this is straight from City's playbook, where wingers are expected to pull 4 players and not 2.

I could easily have even higher possession numbers if i want, by playing on positive mentality or even balanced. If i want to be more patient that's what i do, but i could also have good possession numbers of up to 56% by playing on very attacking mentality. That is a  strategy that Liverpool adopts, but with Stalybridge I tend to react to possession numbers. Chelsea was actually dominating possession in the early part of the game. We went to very attacking mentality and took the game back and they never stood a chance.

Ideally when people want to talk about possession it has to be within the context of what your tactic is capable of. I did not begin with the objective of winning possession. I started with the objective of making sure my boys could work the ball seamlessly through to the midfield consolidation phase. There was a specific tactical shape i was after. Once i got there, it became a question of whether my final third roles and duties were performing the movement they needed to do. Here i would look at roles and traits.

It would probably surprise you to know that my two roles on the flanks are just W(S).  When i play the game I am actually staring at action zones, if it shows me the information i am after, i know my system will win. You should be more concerned about the quality of your possession, where its happening, and whether your players are doing the right kind of off the ball movement to take advantage of it.  I see these kind of goals happening too often on the latest match engine.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

I don't understand this obsession with possession.

Agree. 

I also feel at times that these instructions are an obsession on here as well:

Untitled.png.379bacecf7eb52dd05f6ea62dd8ab407.png

Apologies to the poster as it nothing against what you are trying to achieve (so please take with a pinch of salt).  It just seems in fashion to play high and counter press at all costs.  Really so many other ways to play football and FM.  It's perfectly possible to be a good team, win matches and score goals without those instructions.  Mini rant over :D.

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5 horas atrás, Rashidi disse:

I don't understand this obsession with possession. Possession without purpose is pointless. When i want to dominate possession i am specifically focused on Action Zones, and where that possession is.

1156735577_Screenshot2019-03-30at2_10_52PM.thumb.png.8035583ca99e83abfba1765293471590.png

The action zones tell me all i need to know. We hardly spend any of the time in our own half. Nearly the entirety of the match was played in the opposition half.  This was done on very attacking mentality, i could easily have opted to play on a lower mentality to get possession numbers even higher, but i couldn't be bothered. We were already dominating possession moving the ball with urgency and breaking lines so quickly the defence could never recover.

1139743666_Actionzone.thumb.jpg.29a4d8d6636459e538ab0c116eb67c93.jpg

With my weaker side Stalybridge we can generate 600 passes a game do decent amounts of possession, playing on very attacking mentality and still rip sides open.

56870903_StalyvsChelsea.thumb.jpg.a41261d12a08970216dc27e406837477.jpg

The stats here my point to what looks like a decent game of possession but when you look at the action zones, it basically says a different story

StalyvsChelseas.thumb.jpg.ca20e2e1cafda6da2c54c5c26dc8824c.jpg

Here the action zones tell you a different story, this was an even game. We controlled the ball in midfield but both sides were spending about equal time attacking each others boxes. Again this match was played on very attacking mentality. Here though the quality of play in the final third was the difference

 

With this system i knew what i wanted. Liverpool and Staly, two very different sides were going to use the same system. The system requires us to dominate possession, but in very specific areas of the pitch. We want possession to help us achieve our second goal which is the splitting of defences. In order for us to do that we need to have a specific tactical shape in the consolidation phase - almost identical to Guardiola's City. 

Then we approach the game in an identical fashion to Guardiola by trying to control a very specific zone on the pitch. This is for when we camp. However there are times when we need to get our boys to bring the ball forward and break through lines forcing teams on the backfoot. We also want our keeper to play a big part in recycling possession and launching attacks when sides press us higher up the pitch. That move in the gif you saw when he had our winger running at the defence was intentional.

There are times when he runs from deep and there are times when he starts out from a wider position to receive the ball and cut inside before pulling 4 players to him. Again this is straight from City's playbook, where wingers are expected to pull 4 players and not 2.

I could easily have even higher possession numbers if i want, by playing on positive mentality or even balanced. If i want to be more patient that's what i do, but i could also have good possession numbers of up to 56% by playing on very attacking mentality. That is a  strategy that Liverpool adopts, but with Stalybridge I tend to react to possession numbers. Chelsea was actually dominating possession in the early part of the game. We went to very attacking mentality and took the game back and they never stood a chance.

Ideally when people want to talk about possession it has to be within the context of what your tactic is capable of. I did not begin with the objective of winning possession. I started with the objective of making sure my boys could work the ball seamlessly through to the midfield consolidation phase. There was a specific tactical shape i was after. Once i got there, it became a question of whether my final third roles and duties were performing the movement they needed to do. Here i would look at roles and traits.

It would probably surprise you to know that my two roles on the flanks are just W(S).  When i play the game I am actually staring at action zones, if it shows me the information i am after, i know my system will win. You should be more concerned about the quality of your possession, where its happening, and whether your players are doing the right kind of off the ball movement to take advantage of it.  I see these kind of goals happening too often on the latest match engine.

 

 

It would be interesting to have a view of your system in terms of having an overview of the roles you use. Just for i learn a bit more about it. Because have your striker with that av. rating is something that i really like to achieve.
W (s) you say? but to have that behavior that you refer has to be used with the opposite foot to the side playing right? A kind of false IF / W?

Edited by PequenoGenio
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5 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I don't understand this obsession with possession. Possession without purpose is pointless. When i want to dominate possession i am specifically focused on Action Zones, and where that possession is.

As I mentioned earlier it is not my obsession to play possesion football nor is it my philosophy. I was looking for procedural approaches on how to get the match engine play the football you want to which in this case is possesion football. The hard part for me to understand is if I can't do it with a world class team how am I supposed to implement any style with a lower level team? 

What I noticed so far:

- high pressing strategies are overpowered (Liverpool was always my nightmare and nemesis in this year's game)

- The impact of TI and PI seem to have less value in the ME than in previous versions of the game

3 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

I also feel at times that these instructions are an obsession on here as well:

Untitled.png.379bacecf7eb52dd05f6ea62dd8ab407.png

I agree with you but that was based on @herne79's implementation of tiki-taka and I felt it suited the game since Leicester had a lot of possesion in their own half and mid areas. Aside of that, I feel these instructions are very hard to visualize how they impact in the ME and it could be that a high pressing strategy for a lazier team would have the same impact as a normal pressing strategy for a very commited and aggressive team. 

The direction I want to go with these is that not all of us have the ability to speculate how a certain tactic would play out and maybe not even the ability/time/patience of observing how your team plays in full mode and then knowing how to react. Currently the game is getting more and more complex every year but the channels they feed this data to the user stay the same and the way the information is presented could be improved a ton. 

Edited by ontiu17
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To sum up my thought process in the problem I presented:

Squad analisys

- A very technical attacking trio with lots of vision and flair

- A midfield that excels phisically and mentally but is also fairly decent technically

- A decent back four with a mixture of phisical and technical players

The philosophy

- Considering the phisical power of my midfield we should be able to constantly haras and frustrate the opposition by not allowing them any build up play

- Considering the high level of technique and creativity in my attacking third we should be able to not rush penetration and instead keep the ball around looking for an opportune moment. Due to individual skill (especially flair) this should not be a question of wheter it happens but when it happens.

- The defence should hold their shape, block any attacking attempts and help us recycle possesion

The issues

- My midfield seem uncapable of phisically and mentally dominating the opposition

- My attacking trio seems uncapable of using the skill and flair to create chances and instead they keep rushing penetration through dribble attempts or long shots

The outcome

- We get dominated in the midfield and the only way we manage to outplay the opposition is through skill-based long shots or set pieces and sometimes through pace based counter attacks

- The fact that we get so crushed in the midfield counters the philosophy I'm trying to implement. I tried bringing more bodies into the midfield through other formations (e.g. 4 2 3 1), roles (IWB), TI (play narrower) or PI (sit narrower) but that does not help. 

The solution

As you can see, possesion is not necesarily an obssesion but merely a key principle in our philosophy. Once we get possesion we can look at ways on how to bring the ball forward and create chances. But if we do get crushed in the midfield so hard then the whole idea falls apart.

The Leicester - Chelsea match is the perfect match to try to understand how this philosophy can be achieved mostly because they seem to defy all explanation on why they are so good on the ball and we aren't.

Hope this makes more sense.

Cheers,

Robert

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2 hours ago, ontiu17 said:

high pressing strategies are overpowered (Liverpool was always my nightmare and nemesis in this year's game)

 - The impact of TI and PI seem to have less value in the ME than in previous versions of the game

This statement made me smile. In order for high pressing systems to be super dominant you need to use TIs and PIs for best effect and it’s especially noticeable in this match engine. 

You can’t play on very attacking mentality for 90mins without using a combination of TIs and PIs if you want to dominate possession.

 

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@ontiu17

Came across this thread and was interested in having a look at this match. I identified a few key areas where I thought your tactics could be improved and played 2 matches. The first a 2-2 draw with 58% possession, the second a 1-0 win with 55% possession. A definite improvement considering you're away from home against a decent side that also likes to pack the middle of the pitch.

313397531_ScreenShot2019-04-04at18_20_12.thumb.png.2fa2e890d71fc91b86313f2fc533002b.png

1961210612_ScreenShot2019-04-04at18_22_45.thumb.png.882a1859e6c2e60cedad5826f0b73f4e.png

You can see the changes I made above. Bear in mind these were just some quick changes off the top of my head, you could probably improve things further by watching your matches carefully on extended/full detail and working out where your attacks are breaking down.

Key things I changed:

  • I removed all your player instructions. You had everyone taking less risks which I wasn't entirely sure about, instead I lowered mentality to Cautious and removed the PIs. This has the effect of reducing needless risky passes/dribbles and also lowering your tempo. You primarily aim to control possession more than anything going by your posts so cautious mentality is good for this.
  • Changed some of the roles + duties - I wasn't a huge fan of your attacking balance but this was partly a personal thing. It seemed to me like you had too many supporting players without enough penetration. If you have a striker looking to drop off then it's good to have at least 2 players looking to get into the box. Hazard is a great candidate here and I went for Havertz as a Mezzala (a). It could be worth experimenting with Havertz in the AMC slot as a shadow striker to get him making runs in behind Griezmann a bit more, it's up to you really, this was just something random that i thought might work OK. Left Wingback runs into the space left from Hazard while the right Wingback is more supporting behind Insigne.
  • Play out of defence - this should definitely be on if you want to control possession, I assume this was an oversight.

Hopefully this can give you a nudge in the right direction! Your role/duty balance is definitely something you can improve if you want to be winning more games I think. Visualise how your players will be moving and where you can penetrate the opposition, Man City in real life keep possession extremely well but they have Sane/Sterling darting in behind all the time, don't leave that part out!

Of course this isn't to say FM is completely realistic in terms of possession stats, we're always looking at how we can improve the AI and redefine our stats.

Cheers,

Jack

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19 hours ago, Jack Joyce said:

@ontiu17

Came across this thread and was interested in having a look at this match. I identified a few key areas where I thought your tactics could be improved and played 2 matches. The first a 2-2 draw with 58% possession, the second a 1-0 win with 55% possession. A definite improvement considering you're away from home against a decent side that also likes to pack the middle of the pitch.

313397531_ScreenShot2019-04-04at18_20_12.thumb.png.2fa2e890d71fc91b86313f2fc533002b.png

1961210612_ScreenShot2019-04-04at18_22_45.thumb.png.882a1859e6c2e60cedad5826f0b73f4e.png

You can see the changes I made above. Bear in mind these were just some quick changes off the top of my head, you could probably improve things further by watching your matches carefully on extended/full detail and working out where your attacks are breaking down.

Key things I changed:

  • I removed all your player instructions. You had everyone taking less risks which I wasn't entirely sure about, instead I lowered mentality to Cautious and removed the PIs. This has the effect of reducing needless risky passes/dribbles and also lowering your tempo. You primarily aim to control possession more than anything going by your posts so cautious mentality is good for this.
  • Changed some of the roles + duties - I wasn't a huge fan of your attacking balance but this was partly a personal thing. It seemed to me like you had too many supporting players without enough penetration. If you have a striker looking to drop off then it's good to have at least 2 players looking to get into the box. Hazard is a great candidate here and I went for Havertz as a Mezzala (a). It could be worth experimenting with Havertz in the AMC slot as a shadow striker to get him making runs in behind Griezmann a bit more, it's up to you really, this was just something random that i thought might work OK. Left Wingback runs into the space left from Hazard while the right Wingback is more supporting behind Insigne.
  • Play out of defence - this should definitely be on if you want to control possession, I assume this was an oversight.

Hopefully this can give you a nudge in the right direction! Your role/duty balance is definitely something you can improve if you want to be winning more games I think. Visualise how your players will be moving and where you can penetrate the opposition, Man City in real life keep possession extremely well but they have Sane/Sterling darting in behind all the time, don't leave that part out!

Of course this isn't to say FM is completely realistic in terms of possession stats, we're always looking at how we can improve the AI and redefine our stats.

Cheers,

Jack

Hi Jack. This is a very impressive insight, thank you very much for taking the time to help me out :)

Leaving this aside, I seem to strugle with tactics particularly in this version of the game. I do admit I am very bad at visualising how my tactics play out and I seem to have a hard time understanding how each setting affects the overall style of play. I am more of a general manager kind of player and that is where I get the most excitement from but I really do like the game and have been a loyal fan of the franchise for many years so far. In that sense, are there any plans in future releases of addressing this issues for players like myself by either simplifying the tactical creation or by providing some tools to better and more efficiently visualise your style? I woud really love that!!! :)

Another thing I seem to struggle with is the fact that in Touch you can only choose one tactic. Of course you can save and load other tactics but that seems buggy at the moment (set piece takers get removed, tactics don't stay in the quick menu and so on). That gets very tedious when managing a mid-table team that is always supposed to switch from more attacking styles to more counter-attacking styles - which is contrary to the purpose of Touch.

Once again, thank you very much for your time. Will definetly check your adjustments out and give them a try.

Cheers,

Robert

 

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