3-4-3 - Wolves

[HOTBULLETOWEN]

I’m currently testing out this tactic with Wolves, but I have so far played three games and have failed to score in all three, and have also lost. 

If you could give me tweak suggestions to make this tactic better. 

https://www.fmtrendgames.com/tactics/fm19-nuno-espirito-santos-3-4-3-tactic-wolves/

[Experienced Defender]

On the link you provided, we can only see the formation, roles, duties and players playing them. What about team and player instructions?

Btw, I think Wolves have a pretty good team, so I guess it's possible to create a decent tactic that can work well for you (even though I "smashed" them 4-0 with my Southampton in our first match of the season 

[Guest]

PI and TI it's on the link.

Defend works best (in the game) when you have at "De" duty.

Keep it simple as much as possible.

Your team need time to have fluidity with tactic and understand each player his role.

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, Cadoni said:

PI and TI it's on the link

Yes, you're right 

Sorry, didn't see it at first 

[Experienced Defender]

Huh. man  I know see why you are struggling so much with this tactic. 

First, you don't have to use all the available team instructions. In fact, you should not use most of them.

Defense-wise, you make yourself very vulnerable by the combination of standard DL and higher (let alone much higher) LOE, because you compromise the team's vertical compactness. And this is further compounded by counter-press, more urgent pressing and get stuck in + all the underlaps and focus play down the flanks that you use - all of which increase the mentalities of your wing-backs. In essence, you are leaving too much space to the opposition to exploit, both between the lines of your team and on the flanks.

In possession, as I already said, you are needlessly using too many instructions.

Pass into space - makes sense only when there's the space to pass into, i.e. when the opposition plays in such a way that they leave enough space behind them for you to exploit. Otherwise, it only increases the probability of your team wasting possession for no obvious reason.

Run at defence - also increases the risk of losing the ball, and on top of that tends to disrupt your defensive shape (which btw is already disrupted by the other instructions I mentioned earlier).

As for underlaps/overlaps and focus play TIs, I already explained what they do. It does not mean you should never use any of them. But you certainly should not use them all at the same time. And when you use some of them, you need to consider both pros and cons (i.e. risk and reward).

As for the selection of players, I think you have better players than Traore to be your first-choice. He may be the fastest, but is lacking football intelligence. Your other options are also fast and technically gifted, but a lot more intelligent than him.

Rui Patricios does not have the attributes needed to play as a SK on support duty. But he can be a decent SK on defend duty instead.

None of your CBs is good enough to play as a BPD, and you play even two of them in that role. Maybe Coady might be used sometimes as a BPD, but even that is highly questionable IMO.

Your stopper-duty CB is instructed to maximum pressing intensity, which is sort of "suicidal", especially as your defensive TIs are already very risky (as I explained earlier).

DLP and AP tend not to be the best combo when playing next to each other (unless you want to play a rather boring possession football for the sake of possession (which does not seem to be what you want). So if you play Neves as a DLP (which is an "ideal" role for him, then Moutinho would be better utilized as a MEZ on support in this particular system (considering his attributes).

And so on...

Btw, if you would like me to tell you how I would set up a tactic for Wolves, I'll be glad to share it with you 

 

[HOTBULLETOWEN]

5 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Huh. man  I know see why you are struggling so much with this tactic. 

First, you don't have to use all the available team instructions. In fact, you should not use most of them.

Defense-wise, you make yourself very vulnerable by the combination of standard DL and higher (let alone much higher) LOE, because you compromise the team's vertical compactness. And this is further compounded by counter-press, more urgent pressing and get stuck in + all the underlaps and focus play down the flanks that you use - all of which increase the mentalities of your wing-backs. In essence, you are leaving too much space to the opposition to exploit, both between the lines of your team and on the flanks.

In possession, as I already said, you are needlessly using too many instructions.

Pass into space - makes sense only when there's the space to pass into, i.e. when the opposition plays in such a way that they leave enough space behind them for you to exploit. Otherwise, it only increases the probability of your team wasting possession for no obvious reason.

Run at defence - also increases the risk of losing the ball, and on top of that tends to disrupt your defensive shape (which btw is already disrupted by the other instructions I mentioned earlier).

As for underlaps/overlaps and focus play TIs, I already explained what they do. It does not mean you should never use any of them. But you certainly should not use them all at the same time. And when you use some of them, you need to consider both pros and cons (i.e. risk and reward).

As for the selection of players, I think you have better players than Traore to be your first-choice. He may be the fastest, but is lacking football intelligence. Your other options are also fast and technically gifted, but a lot more intelligent than him.

Rui Patricios does not have the attributes needed to play as a SK on support duty. But he can be a decent SK on defend duty instead.

None of your CBs is good enough to play as a BPD, and you play even two of them in that role. Maybe Coady might be used sometimes as a BPD, but even that is highly questionable IMO.

Your stopper-duty CB is instructed to maximum pressing intensity, which is sort of "suicidal", especially as your defensive TIs are already very risky (as I explained earlier).

DLP and AP tend not to be the best combo when playing next to each other (unless you want to play a rather boring possession football for the sake of possession (which does not seem to be what you want). So if you play Neves as a DLP (which is an "ideal" role for him, then Moutinho would be better utilized as a MEZ on support in this particular system (considering his attributes).

And so on...

Btw, if you would like me to tell you how I would set up a tactic for Wolves, I'll be glad to share it with you 

 

If you could! I normally use gegenpressing system and have no problems with it, just recently that system no longer works for me. Used to work well at clubs like Palace, Bournemouth etc. 

[Boydo]

15 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Huh. man  I know see why you are struggling so much with this tactic. 

First, you don't have to use all the available team instructions. In fact, you should not use most of them.

Defense-wise, you make yourself very vulnerable by the combination of standard DL and higher (let alone much higher) LOE, because you compromise the team's vertical compactness. And this is further compounded by counter-press, more urgent pressing and get stuck in + all the underlaps and focus play down the flanks that you use - all of which increase the mentalities of your wing-backs. In essence, you are leaving too much space to the opposition to exploit, both between the lines of your team and on the flanks.

In possession, as I already said, you are needlessly using too many instructions.

Pass into space - makes sense only when there's the space to pass into, i.e. when the opposition plays in such a way that they leave enough space behind them for you to exploit. Otherwise, it only increases the probability of your team wasting possession for no obvious reason.

Run at defence - also increases the risk of losing the ball, and on top of that tends to disrupt your defensive shape (which btw is already disrupted by the other instructions I mentioned earlier).

As for underlaps/overlaps and focus play TIs, I already explained what they do. It does not mean you should never use any of them. But you certainly should not use them all at the same time. And when you use some of them, you need to consider both pros and cons (i.e. risk and reward).

As for the selection of players, I think you have better players than Traore to be your first-choice. He may be the fastest, but is lacking football intelligence. Your other options are also fast and technically gifted, but a lot more intelligent than him.

Rui Patricios does not have the attributes needed to play as a SK on support duty. But he can be a decent SK on defend duty instead.

None of your CBs is good enough to play as a BPD, and you play even two of them in that role. Maybe Coady might be used sometimes as a BPD, but even that is highly questionable IMO.

Your stopper-duty CB is instructed to maximum pressing intensity, which is sort of "suicidal", especially as your defensive TIs are already very risky (as I explained earlier).

DLP and AP tend not to be the best combo when playing next to each other (unless you want to play a rather boring possession football for the sake of possession (which does not seem to be what you want). So if you play Neves as a DLP (which is an "ideal" role for him, then Moutinho would be better utilized as a MEZ on support in this particular system (considering his attributes).

And so on...

Btw, if you would like me to tell you how I would set up a tactic for Wolves, I'll be glad to share it with you 

 

Very interested to see your take on Wolves. I'm currently playing a save with them using mostly 3-4-3 and 3-5-2 formations.

[Experienced Defender]

So I analyzed your players here and devised two versions of a basic tactic that I would use in most of matches. Your first team is pretty decent, with a few really good players, but the problem is an obvious lack of depth in a number of positions. I don't know how much room for maneuver you currently have in the transfer and wage budgets, but you need at least one more player for the left WB position to serve as a backup option if Jonny or Vinagre gets injured.

Anyway, let's get to the 1st version of the basic/primary tactic...

Roles & duties:

PFsu

IFsu                                  IFat

DLPde   MEZsu

WBsu                            WBde

CDde   CDst   CDde

SKde

The starting 11 for this tactic & player instructions:

GK/SKde - Patricio - no PIs

DCL/CDde - Boly - stay wider, less urgent pressing

DCR/CDde - Coady - less urgent pressing

DC/CDst - Dendoncker - mark tighter

WBL/WBsu - Vinagre - cross from byline

WBR/WBde - Doherty or Jonny - cross more often, sit narrower

MCL/DLPde - Neves - mark tighter, less urgent pressing

MCR/MEZsu - Moutinho - mark tighter, more urgent pressing, take more risks

AML/IFsu - Jota - sit narrower, mark specific position MR or AMR

AMR/IFat - Costa or Cavaleiro - sit narrower

ST/PFsu - Jimenez - roam from position, shorter passing, shoot more often

Team instructions:

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - slightly more direct passing, play out of defence, play wider, hit early crosses, overlap left, overlap right

In transition - counter, throw it long, distribute quickly to the flanks

Out of possession - higher d-line, standard LOE, use tighter marking, prevent short GKD, use offside trap

Optional team instruction (used occasionally, but not as part of a starting tactic) - be more expressive

Optional player instruction - ease of tackles for the stopper-duty CB (Dendoncker)

So that was the 1st version. I will post the other one in a later post, but before that, I would like to discuss this one with you (and/or anyone interested). So if you have any questions or suggestions, go ahead 

 

[HOTBULLETOWEN]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

So I analyzed your players here and devised two versions of a basic tactic that I would use in most of matches. Your first team is pretty decent, with a few really good players, but the problem is an obvious lack of depth in a number of positions. I don't know how much room for maneuver you currently have in the transfer and wage budgets, but you need at least one more player for the left WB position to serve as a backup option if Jonny or Vinagre gets injured.

Anyway, let's get to the 1st version of the basic/primary tactic...

Roles & duties:

PFsu

IFsu                                  IFat

DLPde   MEZsu

WBsu                            WBde

CDde   CDst   CDde

SKde

The starting 11 for this tactic & player instructions:

GK/SKde - Patricio - no PIs

DCL/CDde - Boly - stay wider, less urgent pressing

DCR/CDde - Coady - less urgent pressing

DC/CDst - Dendoncker - mark tighter

WBL/WBsu - Vinagre - cross from byline

WBR/WBde - Doherty or Jonny - cross more often, sit narrower

MCL/DLPde - Neves - mark tighter, less urgent pressing

MCR/MEZsu - Moutinho - mark tighter, more urgent pressing, take more risks

AML/IFsu - Jota - sit narrower, mark specific position MR or AMR

AMR/IFat - Costa or Cavaleiro - sit narrower

ST/PFsu - Jimenez - roam from position, shorter passing, shoot more often

Team instructions:

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - slightly more direct passing, play out of defence, play wider, hit early crosses, overlap left, overlap right

In transition - counter, throw it long, distribute quickly to the flanks

Out of possession - higher d-line, standard LOE, use tighter marking, prevent short GKD, use offside trap

Optional team instruction (used occasionally, but not as part of a starting tactic) - be more expressive

Optional player instruction - ease of tackles for the stopper-duty CB (Dendoncker)

So that was the 1st version. I will post the other one in a later post, but before that, I would like to discuss this one with you (and/or anyone interested). So if you have any questions or suggestions, go ahead 

 

Thanks for your suggestion, as I was awaiting your reply I tried going to control possession in a 4-1-4-1 (with wingers) and it has stabilised Wolves, I have played 5 games and have drawn, even coming up against Man City, I’m just finding hard to score, we’re scoring at least 1 goal per game, and that does not come from in the first half. 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, HOTBULLETOWEN said:

Thanks for your suggestion, as I was awaiting your reply I tried going to control possession in a 4-1-4-1 (with wingers) and it has stabilised Wolves, I have played 5 games and have drawn, even coming up against Man City, I’m just finding hard to score, we’re scoring at least 1 goal per game, and that does not come from in the first half. 

Didn't quite understand you. You have drawn in these five games using my tactic or your ctrl possession 4141? Anyway, if you have drawn against teams you were expected to lose or draw - that's good. Otherwise, not really 

[Boydo]

5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

So I analyzed your players here and devised two versions of a basic tactic that I would use in most of matches. Your first team is pretty decent, with a few really good players, but the problem is an obvious lack of depth in a number of positions. I don't know how much room for maneuver you currently have in the transfer and wage budgets, but you need at least one more player for the left WB position to serve as a backup option if Jonny or Vinagre gets injured.

Anyway, let's get to the 1st version of the basic/primary tactic...

Roles & duties:

PFsu

IFsu                                  IFat

DLPde   MEZsu

WBsu                            WBde

CDde   CDst   CDde

SKde

The starting 11 for this tactic & player instructions:

GK/SKde - Patricio - no PIs

DCL/CDde - Boly - stay wider, less urgent pressing

DCR/CDde - Coady - less urgent pressing

DC/CDst - Dendoncker - mark tighter

WBL/WBsu - Vinagre - cross from byline

WBR/WBde - Doherty or Jonny - cross more often, sit narrower

MCL/DLPde - Neves - mark tighter, less urgent pressing

MCR/MEZsu - Moutinho - mark tighter, more urgent pressing, take more risks

AML/IFsu - Jota - sit narrower, mark specific position MR or AMR

AMR/IFat - Costa or Cavaleiro - sit narrower

ST/PFsu - Jimenez - roam from position, shorter passing, shoot more often

Team instructions:

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - slightly more direct passing, play out of defence, play wider, hit early crosses, overlap left, overlap right

In transition - counter, throw it long, distribute quickly to the flanks

Out of possession - higher d-line, standard LOE, use tighter marking, prevent short GKD, use offside trap

Optional team instruction (used occasionally, but not as part of a starting tactic) - be more expressive

Optional player instruction - ease of tackles for the stopper-duty CB (Dendoncker)

So that was the 1st version. I will post the other one in a later post, but before that, I would like to discuss this one with you (and/or anyone interested). So if you have any questions or suggestions, go ahead 

 

Lots of similarities to the 3-4-3 I play (balanced mentality & direct passing), and the roles are very similar too. I just have a question about the Player Instructions - Are these specifically tailored for the players you have in that position or would they be the same for any player in the role? I think I can guess that most of them aren't player specific and would stay the same regardless of the player (such as Boly staying wider to cover for the more aggressive wing back), but interested to hear your thought process.

[RocheBag]

19 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

So I analyzed your players here and devised two versions of a basic tactic that I would use in most of matches. Your first team is pretty decent, with a few really good players, but the problem is an obvious lack of depth in a number of positions. I don't know how much room for maneuver you currently have in the transfer and wage budgets, but you need at least one more player for the left WB position to serve as a backup option if Jonny or Vinagre gets injured.

Anyway, let's get to the 1st version of the basic/primary tactic...

Roles & duties:

PFsu

IFsu                                  IFat

DLPde   MEZsu

WBsu                            WBde

CDde   CDst   CDde

SKde

 

 

I'm not sure what the object of the project is. If it's simply to get results with a 3-4-3 I'm sure this may be fine, though I've never played a system mapped out like this.

However, if the object is to get the team playing like Wolves do in real life, this is nothing like how they set up. I could be wrong in the purpose of the thread though so if we aren't trying to replicate wolves' real system then carry on.

[Experienced Defender]

17 hours ago, Boydo said:

I just have a question about the Player Instructions - Are these specifically tailored for the players you have in that position or would they be the same for any player in the role?

I always take into account players' attributes (and traits) when giving them PIs. Of course, some PIs can be given regardless of who plays the role. For example, a fullback can be told to sit narrower, whoever plays in the position. But I'll certainly not tell a player with poor dribbling to dribble more or anything to that effect.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, RocheBag said:

I'm not sure what the object of the project is. If it's simply to get results with a 3-4-3 I'm sure this may be fine, though I've never played a system mapped out like this.

However, if the object is to get the team playing like Wolves do in real life, this is nothing like how they set up. I could be wrong in the purpose of the thread though so if we aren't trying to replicate wolves' real system then carry on.

I am not trying to replicate real-life Wolves, but to create a tactic that would suit their players based on their attributes in FM. The formation 343/523 is the system they play in real life though, but that formation is really the most logical choice IMO.

[Boydo]

22 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I always take into account players' attributes (and traits) when giving them PIs. Of course, some PIs can be given regardless of who plays the role. For example, a fullback can be told to sit narrower, whoever plays in the position. But I'll certainly not tell a player with poor dribbling to dribble more or anything to that effect.

Thanks for the explanation, looking forward to seeing the 2nd version of the tactic

[RocheBag]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

I am not trying to replicate real-life Wolves, but to create a tactic that would suit their players based on their attributes in FM. The formation 343/523 is the system they play in real life though, but that formation is really the most logical choice IMO.

They play a 3-5-2 now, but I wasn't talking about the shape, more so the roles of the players. For example Coady is in the middle and is always deepest of the 3, BPD on cover 100%. The wingbacks basically play like wingers in attack, both need to be on attack duty for sure. Things like that.

But like I said if we aren't trying to replicate Wolves IRL then nevermind.

[Experienced Defender]

7 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

For example Coady is in the middle and is always deepest of the 3, BPD on cover 100%

Okay, maybe he is in real life. But in this system, there is no cover-duty CB. There is a stopper instead, in order to make up for the absence of a DM.

 

8 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

The wingbacks basically play like wingers in attack

 I don't think they are on attack, especially not both of them. In this case I use the overlaps to encourage them get more forward in a safer way than by using attack duties.

[Experienced Defender]

It's time for another - just slightly modified - version of the tactic 

PFat

Wat                              IFsu

MEZsu   DLPde

IWBde                        WBsu

CDde   CDst   CDde

SKde

The starting 11 for this tactic & player instructions:

GK/SKde - Patricio - no PIs

DCL/CDde - Boly - less urgent pressing

DCR/CDde - Coady - stay wider, less urgent pressing

DC/CDst - Dendoncker - mark tighter

WBL/IWBde - Jonny - no PIs

WBR/WBsu - Doherty - cross more often

MCL/MEZsu - Moutinho - mark tighter, more urgent pressing, take more risks

MCR/DLPde - Neves - mark tighter, less urgent pressing

AML/Wat - Jota - roam from position

AMR/IFsu - Costa - sit narrower, mark specific position ML or AML

ST/PFat - Jimenez - shorter passing, shoot more often

Team instructions:

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - slightly more direct passing, play out of defence, play wider, underlap left, overlap right

In transition - counter, throw it long, distribute quickly to the flanks

Out of possession - higher d-line, standard LOE, use tighter marking, prevent short GKD, use offside trap

Optional team instruction (used occasionally, but not as part of a starting tactic) - be more expressive

Optional player instruction - ease of tackles for the stopper-duty CB (Dendoncker)

 

[Experienced Defender]

Just one more thing - be careful with the "underlap left" TI in this second tactic. If you find that you are getting overly exposed in that area (left flank), just remove it.

[RocheBag]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

 I don't think they are on attack, especially not both of them. In this case I use the overlaps to encourage them get more forward in a safer way than by using attack duties.

They are very often the two furthest players forward on the pitch. Both wingbacks ahead of both strikers at the same time. They are absolutely both on attack no questions asked.

 

Regarding your other point, that's why I said "if the point isn't to replicate wolves in real life then nevermind."