AIK-inspired 3-5-2

[Mutumba]

After reading crusadertsars post on 3-5-2 I feelt the urge to create "my own" 3-5-2, using some inspiration from crusadertsar and swedish champions AIK. 

Firstly, im looking for feedback on TI, PI and player roles and how they go togheter on the pitch.

My philosophy

I would like to be a defensivley solid team, bascially wearing the opponents down by pressing high up the picth - intensifying the pressing in the final third of the pitch and "suffocating" the opponents, hindering them from establising any attack from the back.

My team will not be a neccesarily a possession-based team, we will use a more direct style of play, also using counter attacks when opportunity arise but we wont be sitting back being passive and using only counter attacks. In our strive towards being a solid defensive unit we wont be using counter pressing, but instead regroup defensivley.

We are currently using a higher tempo and slightly more direct passing. I dont think we benefit from slowing the play down or using a slower overall tempo. But im not sure about this.

 

GK

Not really sure which role is best suited for my style of play. Since our defense line will be much higher, im thinking of using a sweeper keeper on support.

The back three

Ive strictly copied the back 3 from crusadertsar. Using two stopper CD and one BPD cover in the middle. Not sure how this might effect our vulnerability with counter attacks from opponents.

Currently not using play out of defence TI. 

WB support

Two important positions, as they need to run up and down the pitch and delivering crosses. I dont want them to be running with the ball too much, dribbling or taking any risks in passing. I simply see them as 'freight trains': pressing the opponents, covering ground and whipping in crosses. My wbs are technically very limited, they are not Dani Alves-esque WB, so I dont want them to run a lot with the ball.

PI: dribble less.

Perhaps also include cross from deep? Take fewer risks? 

 

Midfield three

Im thinking of using a sort of "Goldilocks and the three bears" when it comes this. First of all I want a player who sits just slighly deeper than the other two, collecting the ball and always beeing availible to recieve a pass from either the back three, the WBs or the other two midfielders. Hes a good passer. Im thinking of simply a DLP-defend butim not sure if I should bring him down to DM or keep him in the central midfield. Any ideas?

PI: take more risks

Secondly, is the balance of the three. He should offer support at the back, but also follow up in attack. So im thinking of using a BBM. I want him to be running up and down, either helping out my DLP in defence or offering support to the attacking players.

PI: Tackle harder, gets further forward

Which leads me to the third midfielder. This is the mifielder with the least defensive responsiblity of the 3, but he is not a trequartista who can just stay up front waiting for the ball. He needs to take his defensive responsibility, but keeping in mind that he is a pivotal attacking player. So my first thought is an AP support, or a CM-attack. I want him to help the strikers out when we are not in possession, pressing high up the pitch togheter with my two strikers and trying to prevent short Gk distribution. Also consider to use him in the central midfield, and not in the AMC-position.

CM-attack PI: more risks, roam from position, move into channels, close down more, mark tighter

AP-support PI: Roam from position, close down more, mark tighter

 

Strikers

One of my strikers is a really good DLF. Hes strong, a great passer and generally intelligent player with good vision. Not sure about support or attack duty tho.

PI: Mark tighter

Second striker I think should play off of the DLF in a good fashion. Thinking about using AF. 

PI: Mark tighter

 

TI:

In possession

Attacking wide

Slightly more direct passing

Higher tempo

Be more expressive

Hit early crosses

 

In transition

Counter

Regroup

 

Out of possession

Higher line of engagement (should this be much higher perhaps?)

Much higher defensive line'

More urgent pressing

Prevent short GK distribution

Standard defensive width

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Mutumba said:

GK

Not really sure which role is best suited for my style of play. Since our defense line will be much higher, im thinking of using a sweeper keeper on support.

You should not consider roles separately from the players playing them. If you want to use your GK as a SK on support, then he needs to have good rushing out, one on ones, anticipation, acceleration, concentration, passing, vision, first touch, decisions and at least decent technique. The same is true for all other roles/players. Always take into account your players' attributes and traits.

[Mutumba]

18 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You should not consider roles separately from the players playing them. If you want to use your GK as a SK on support, then he needs to have good rushing out, one on ones, anticipation, acceleration, concentration, passing, vision, first touch, decisions and at least decent technique. The same is true for all other roles/players. Always take into account your players' attributes and traits.

Well, sure. I wouldnt use a player in a role hes not used to at all. But, sureley the player roles needs to be chosed not only on a basis on what types of players you have at your disposal, but also at what your team is trying to achieve.

 

Your TI and plyaer roles need to be in sync. There is no point in using a GK Sweeper (even if you have Neuer in goal) if you have a very low line of defence.

[rverdag2]

Nice post. What mentality are you planning to use? 

[Mutumba]

1 hour ago, rverdag2 said:

Nice post. What mentality are you planning to use? 

Balanced, which reflects AIK nicely.

[crusadertsar]

Grrat thread @Mutumba Some good food for thought here. That formation can be very defensively solid you will see. In one of my test saves, my Valencia side is third in La Liga at the end of March. We have least goals conceded with 13 all season long. The trick I think is having a defensively solid midfield full of hard workers. But your two wingbacks have to be among your best players and much more offensive as result. They don't just need to run up and down like freight trains but get up near the strikers to overload the opponent defence with 4 or 5 players at once. My two wingbacks are Gaya and Piccinni, have 9 and10 assists respectively. Sometimes I even play Gaya as CWB. He is probably the best wingback in the world right now. Anyway would love to see how 3-5-2 works out for you

I'm currently working on Second Part to my write up, where I will hopefully expend more on these ideas.

[Rupal]

Just a minor point, but if we have wingbacks are we actually talking about a genuine 3-5-2 at all?  Sounds more like a 5-3-2 WB formation.

I'm only mentioning this because I am searching around for tips and hints for a (very) Lower League 3-5-2 system which I am trying to develop.  By this I mean 3 CDs and 5 midfielders.  Given the fact that I am (for my sins) trying to manage Oxford City in the Vanarama South, with no money and only the odd remotely reasonable player, I can do with all the help I can get!

Why 3-5-2?  Because it does manage to use the few decent players I have so that I don't need to replace the lot without any funds to do so...….

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Rupal said:

3-5-2 system which I am trying to develop.  By this I mean 3 CDs and 5 midfielders

You mean flat midfield five, or otherwise?

[Rupal]

It depends what you mean by 'flat' of course.  If (say) you have 2 wide midfielders, 2 BWM and a DLP (defend), then that won't show up as a completely straight line.  If you would regard a setup like that as a 'flat' midfield 5 then yes.  I am not using a DM or an AM if that's what you mean.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Rupal said:

If you would regard a setup like that as a 'flat' midfield 5 then yes.  I am not using a DM or an AM if that's what you mean.

Yes, that's what I mean - flat in terms of midfield positions, regardless of roles/duties. Btw, an interesting system. Can work, but you need to be careful how you pick roles and duties. Of course, and other settings as well.

I play a version of 352 with Southampton, but it has 2 DMs, 2 WMs and an AMC. 

[Rupal]

Its always interesting to try things out.  I am thinking of using a DLP defend in the middle of my central midfield three (WMs on the flanks) with two CMs flanking him as I've read that using a BWM or a BBM in these positions can cause large gaps between defence and midfield which I don't really want.  The question is, what these CMs should be set at.  I'm tempted to use automatic as then I can tinker about with the play by altering the team mentality.  As I want to attempt to Gegenpress  (yes, I know that my players are rotten but then, so are everybody else's at Vanarama South level anyway!) I wonder if this would work?  Otherwise, should I set the CMs to attack or support?  Any suggestions gratefully received!

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, Rupal said:

Its always interesting to try things out.  I am thinking of using a DLP defend in the middle of my central midfield three (WMs on the flanks) with two CMs flanking him as I've read that using a BWM or a BBM in these positions can cause large gaps between defence and midfield which I don't really want.  The question is, what these CMs should be set at.  I'm tempted to use automatic as then I can tinker about with the play by altering the team mentality.  As I want to attempt to Gegenpress  (yes, I know that my players are rotten but then, so are everybody else's at Vanarama South level anyway!) I wonder if this would work?  Otherwise, should I set the CMs to attack or support?  Any suggestions gratefully received!

However you eventually set them up, there are 3 basic principles I always recommend:

1. do not be one-dimensional. i.e. symmetric in terms of roles and duties, especially in the midfield and attack (and judging from the part in your post that I bolded, you seem to intend to be one-dimensional)

2. always take care that your system is well-balanced and with sufficient defensive cover

3. don't give your players roles/duties/instructions they aren't capable of performing at least decently. The same also applies to the team as a whole.

[Overmars]

I think you have to be more definitive about what you want your 3 attacking players to do. Check their attributes, pick roles that suit them, and see if those roles logically fit with each other. You probably need one of them to be a creator, one of them to be a finisher, and one of them to do a bit of both.

[Rupal]

 

23 hours ago, Overmars said:

I think you have to be more definitive about what you want your 3 attacking players to do. Check their attributes, pick roles that suit them, and see if those roles logically fit with each other. You probably need one of them to be a creator, one of them to be a finisher, and one of them to do a bit of both.

I'm not actually playing three in attack.  If I wasn't clear, I apologise.  I am experimenting with a flat 3-5-2 and have been trying to decide how to deal with the three central midfielders.  In fact, what I'm trying appears to be ok so far; very early days because only pre-season but three wins out of three thus far, including a memorable win against Ipswich Town, who are four divisions above us which I feel very smug about!  So what I'm trying is, as I said, a flat 3-5-2.  2CD (def) and one CD (cover) in the middle, 2WM (in support), a central midfield 3 of DLP (def) in the middle and two MC (automatic).  Up front, 2 Pressing Forwards, one on attack, one on support.  In spite of my poor players, Gegenpress actually seems to work - even against mighty Ipswich, although I deepened the defence line and line of engagement somewhat, took out the offside trap and used whipped crosses, with a Cautious mentality against them.  It's interesting that my Pressing Forward (support) keeps scoring, in spite of having the magnificent finishing stat of 5!

Anyway, thanks for the help everyone.  Will see how we get on when the battle to stay in the Vanarama South begins in earnest!

 

Edit: Have switched the central midfield 3 to DLP (de), CM (a) and BWM (s).  Fits in with my players and seems to work well as a combo.  Also, decided to go more direct.  Won last match 6-0 so must be doing something right!

[Rupal]

Still experimenting, but determined to try to get the right blend I tried a rerun of a saved pre-season after getting a 2-1 win against a side I should have done better against.   I decided to try switching the DLP to an AP (attack), the CM to automatic and the BWM to defend.  Result, 10 - 0!

It does show how important the player roles are, I think!  I'll continue to try this combination to see what happens!