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Jessan

4123/41221/433/whatever Patch Woes

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So before patch 19.3 hit my tactic was working really well, sure there were still some kinks to sort out but when you go unbeaten for a season, you don't really complain.  Now after 19.3 I noticed something was off but I can't seem to find out what it is, my tactic just became less effective it seems.  I find this weird because I considered my tactic to be pretty balanced (don't hurt me if it isn't) so I never really payed attention to patches, for instance in FM18 I used the same tactic from beta till the end.

Now to check if what I felt was right, I compared some stats from before the patch with after the patch.  I used league matches only because European matches seem to work with a different rep system, the issue here is that I only had 10 league matches after the patch so not that big of a sample size.  This is what I found:

  • Average possession before the patch was 57.17% after the patch it was 59.3%
  • Shots per game: before the patch 19.54, after the patch 21.6
  • Shots on target per game: before 7.75, after 10.2
  • Long shots: 5.13 vs 6.6
  • Clear cut chances created: 1.17 vs 1.1
  • Half chances: 1.71 vs 0.9
  • Key passes made: 8.04 vs 7.1

Everything seemed fine, sometimes even better then before the patch however the difference between half chances created before and after seems huge and it might be linked with our long shots that also went up considerably and our key passes that went down.

Now on the defensive side of things, while we concede pretty much the same amount of shots, the shots on target the opposing teams have went up, from 2.58 to 3.4 shots on target. Also clear cut chances created by the opposing team went up from 0.28 to 0.5 per game.  Yet we did not concede more goals.

The thing that annoys me to most however is that the play during our highlights is pretty much the same, I just have fewer highlights a game.  And I've tried to watch a full game however I'm not tactically adept enough to find out/see what is going wrong.

So I've come here in the hopes that either someone can notice a flaw in the setup of the tactic or maybe someone with more knowledge about what the patch changed that could explain why my tactic is less effective after the patch. 

And after all that, here's the tactic

my tictac.jpg

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Hi,

I agree with you, when you say that you think that you have a well balanced tactic. I also think so. The only think i probably change would be the left winger to a Inside forward on support, simply because i don't like vey much the W(s)+WB(a) combo, it feels like having to players doing the same.

Apart from that, from your words, and i could be wrong, you are starting a new season after having an undefeated season.

I don't know what team you are playing, but it's perfectly normal that the opponents adopted a more defensive setup when playing against you, and this could be reason why you are having less half chances and more long shots.

Like i said, you have a good tactic in my opinion, and i'm sure it fits well your team, because if it didn't you couldnt have achieve those results, but like with any tactic, sometimes some tweaks are needed in some game just to turn your things for your side. Simple things like:

- change the MEZ to attack and the right Inside forward to suppor

- change the CF(s) to a AF(a)

- drop the D-line to standard to give a little more space to your midfield to work

- drop the higher tempo, so that your WB(a) can get more into play

- use the "more creativity" instruction

I'm not saying to use all at once, but when you are fiding hard to score, use one or two, for 10/15 minuts and see if the game changes in your favor.

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Well the W(s) and WB(at) is something I stole from the AI and I do like the way they play together, yes they are close together and it probably isn't the best way for them to play together however there are advantages to it, my winger does tend to dribble inwards a bit(even though he doesn't have any PPM for it) so the WB does have space to run into, but it's mostly when the winger goes forwards with the ball but gets blocked by 1 or 2 players that he has the easy backpass to the WB and the attack doesn't stall too much and my favourite is that when the winger crosses but the cross gets blocked (happens a bit too often for my liking) the ball tends to deflect to an area where my WB is first to the ball.

I can't drop the inside forward on support since the entire tactic revolves around him being the primary goalscorer.  I have tried so many roles for my striker that I've given up on him, he does okay as a CFs, still gets too many games where his rating is 6.4 or below. I have used the more expressive TI at times.  The higher tempo is there to prevent defenses from settling against me.

About teams playing defensive against me, I thought it was tied to reputation and that reputation only updated twice a season, I would feel it's strange if it happened in the last 10 games of a season, just at the time that the patch hit.

I'll experiment with the Dline settings though.

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I agree that your tactic is well-balanced, both in terms of roles/duties and TIs (at least in possession), provided you play the right players in their respective roles. The Wsu/WBat may not be the "happiest" combo though, but you said it works well for you, so it's obviously okay in your system.

What you might try with respect to attacking performance is change the striker from CF to DLF on support or F9. Because a player that is suitable for a CF role is usually also suitable for a DLF/F9, but tends to roam less than CF.

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27 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

What you might try with respect to attacking performance is change the striker from CF to DLF on support or F9. Because a player that is suitable for a CF role is usually also suitable for a DLF/F9, but tends to roam less than CF.

I don't like the movement that the DLF/s and the F9 have this year. 

In FM19 they seem too static, and against teams that sit deep they are easily marked. And this happens even if we add the roaming instruction. On the other hand, the CF/s puts himself more into the game finding pockets of space. 

The AF, for what I see also works good against teams that sit seep, because they just push back the opponent defence leaving more space for tactics that have someone attacking from the midfield. 

At least this is my experience so far with this year ME. 

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23 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

I don't like the movement that the DLF/s and the F9 have this year. 

In FM19 they seem too static, and against teams that sit deep they are easily marked. And this happens even if we add the roaming instruction. On the other hand, the CF/s puts himself more into the game finding pockets of space. 

It probably depends on the type of player you play in the role and how your overall tactic is set up. I often use Alexis Sanchez as an F9 in my Man Utd save (usually paired with a PF on attack in a narrow 442 diamond), and he is absolutely fantastic :brock:

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The DLF/F9 behaviors changed after the patch, they tend to do a lot more dropping off from the backline and looking to link play, I actually switched to using a DLF(S) in my main tactic before the patch dropped because I was anticipating that the revamped striker movement would enhance what I was looking for out of that position and so far I feel like that paid off.

In fact, I was wondering if it was these changes in striker movement that have caused some of the changes in what Jessan is seeing -- if they've set up their tactic around the left-sided IF(A) it would make sense that they'd be getting a lot of those key passes/chances coming from the CF(S) -- if the tweak to the ME causes the CF(S) to be dropping deeper and getting the IF(A) the ball further outside the area, that could cause the drop in half chances/key passes and the rise in long-range shots.

I think it would be worth tweaking the role that you're using for the lone forward and see if that changes things, I'd consider seeing how a F9/CF(A)/DLF(A) combine with your left winger.

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OK basically, I like to ask people this question.

Exactly how do you picture your goals being scored, what are the moves that you can visualise, in my tactics i can actually tell you who will score and how that chance will be created. What you need to do is ask yourself the same question.

The answer the IF (A) will score most of the goals by the space created, isn't good enough. How do you expect to see the space created. This tactic is extremely similar to mine, with only a few minor differences, but i think those minor differences are huge. A tactic doing well before a patch should still do well after a patch, unless some major changes happened. The only major changes i can force happening, wouldn't have affected you very much since you aren't using the roles that were changed that much.

 

@Keyzer Soze The DLF and the F9 are now a lot better after the patch., in my system where i play a 4123 like this, i depend entirely on my lone forward to create the space for my IF to rule the roost. Prior to me.1925 it was not working well, but since 1926 it's improved.

 

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I didn't know they changed the DLF with the latest patch, originally I had set up the striker to be a DLFs but he didn't seem to fit so I tried other roles before giving up and settling on a CFs.  Guess I will have to experiment and see how the DLF works now.

For your other questions, they are a bit harder to answer because I'm not that great at the tactic side of things, hence why once I find something that works I stick with it, but I'll try to answer.  How to create space is something I still struggle with, however I was hoping the triangle of Ws, WBat and DLPsu would drag the other team towards that side opening up the left flank(?).

How I foresaw my goals being scored:

  • using the (possible) overload on the right I was hoping to get both the Wsu and WBat to cross towards the IFa
  • link up play between the MEZ and IFa, IFa running forwards with the ball laying it off towards the MEZ and him playing the through ball towards the IFa again
  • striker dropping deep and holding up the ball for the IFa (or winger, maybe even MEZ since he gets further forward
  • on a transition having the DLP find the IFa with a long ball since my DLP has the trait "likes to switch ball to other flank"

 

Now the first one was pretty common with added bonus that my DLP would play through balls to my WBat who was then free to cross.  The second one happened rarely but I did like they way those 2 roles played together mostly to keep possession.  Think in 3 seasons I had 2 goals with my striker holding up the ball and playing in the IFa, he mostly would just pass it backwards towards the DLP or MEZ.  And very sadly I can't remember a single time we scored a goal on the counter with the DLP playing the long ball towards the IFa, he would sometimes find him with a through ball when we were camping. 

One other situation that I did not foresee but was happy to note was that the MEZ would actually play the long ball towards my Ws for him to have the easy cross towards my IFa.

 

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