The Broken Promise of the Offensive 3-5-2

[ortiz]

Hi guys!

 

First of all, a quick intro. So I took up a save with Schalke 04 as my first serious attempt at getting into FM19. Initially I did not have a particular style of play or tactic in mind, but a quick look at the squad (lots of midfielders and good CBs, no proper wingers, great physical and Work Rate/Aggression stats) made me decide to play a 3-5-2 with intense pressing and an ambition to play offensive football. Surprisingly, I ended up winning the Bundesliga in the first season, partly because Bayern were pretty poor, and am now in my second season fighting it out for another title. I now also have a more clear idea of the style of play I want to achieve. However, despite the results, I am not very happy with what I am generally seeing on the pitch and I was hoping to maybe get some input on how to get there.

Here is what I am looking for:

- Controlled build-up play from the back. The GK, the three CBs and a deeper-lying midfielder should aim to pass it between them to work the ball upfield in a controlled manner before trying to get into the opponent's half with a pass, preferably to a player positioned in the central space or one of the half-spaces. Facing an aggressive side with a high line, the occasional ball over the top for one of the forwards to run onto is fine.

- Quick circulation of the ball and penetration through overloads and combination play in order to create chances. Once in the opponent's half I would like my midfielders to try to link up  with each other and the forwards, playing quick combinations and moving around to disrupt the opponents shape before finding the opportunity for a through ball or space to shoot. The three-man midfield, CBs comfortable on the ball and two forwards dropping or moving into channels should in theory allow for dominating the central area and half spaces. The wing-backs should generally only be more of a wide outlet when the central areas gets congested and used as a secondary option for getting the ball into the box rather than the focus of attacks.

- Counter-pressing, disrupting opponents build-up through pressing and minimizing space, and the opportunity for quick turnovers and counters. Once possession is lost I would like to immediately press the opponent in possession in order to force a turnover or a clearance. If they manage to play out of the initial press the high line and the three midfielders with a back 5 behind should make us hard to play through and leave the opponent to attempt high-risk balls over the top or to move play wide where the WB and the LCM/RCM should be able to press their wide player efficiently.

 

That's the idea atleast. A lot if it, although not the high press, is based on Allegri's early years with Juventus before moving to a back four, especially the build-up phase and the midfield constellation (Pogba-Marchisio-Khedira) so there is a real world precedent for this working. Unfortunately, this is not at all what is happening in matches. Instead this is what seems to happen:

- Endless, infuriating crossing. The ball always, unless someone tries to play it long for a striker to run onto, seem to end up on one of the flanks, either through the wingback overlapping when the ball is on their side, or the player in possession hitting these absolutely stunning, pinpoint crossfield through balls to the far side wingback who then, inevitably, proceeds to cross it onto the the first defender for a deflection resulting in a corner. This is by far the most common type of attack I am seeing. As a side note, both me and opponents often reach numbers of crosses attempted far, far higher than the Premier League average.

- Stale, inefficient midfield. The above is most likely a result of this. Despite having three midfielders, with a forward dropping to combine and being backed up by three CBs who allow for circulation, we generally get dominated in midfield. We have a hard time keeping possession while opponents seem to very good at playing the ball around and through us. The players seem unwilling to try combinations or moving into space and stubbornly opposed to try any other final passes other than to the wingbacks. The DLP tend to have decent passing stats but the Mezz(A)/CM(A) and the BBM/BWM(S) more often than not look like passengers in the games and receive appropriate low ratings. To me, this seems to be the central problem. My strikers, unless scoring from a long ball/cross, can also get pretty poor ratings, but I believe this is due mostly to poor service originating in a dysfunctional midfield and passing style.

Defensively I feel we are pretty sound and we do score goals but they seem to come only in one of three varieties, 1) quick, long, through balls into space, 2) one of the billions of crosses attempted finally connecting with a forward or 3) a set-piece, likely due to the high amount of corners I get. I would really like a greater variety of goals (combination passing, long shots, midfielders moving into the box, carving the opponent open etc.) because right now, even if I am successful on paper, the game is honestly really boring.

The tricky thing is that I think my setup looks good on paper, especially in my perhaps misguided attempt to emulate Juventus. I have tried different small changes to try to get it where I want it, like slowing down the tempo, adding "work ball into box" or "be more expressive" and some player role changes for the midfielders and strikers but none of that seem to get us consistently closer to where I want to be. All this being said, I would be very happy and appreciative if anyone has the patience to read through this and give me some new input!

[ortiz]

As an added bonus to make it more complicated, this is the guy I would like the team to be built around:

To me he seems pretty perfect for an offensive central midfield role like the Mezzala(A) or a CM(A), or the Pogba role if you'd like. However he generally contributes very little offensively, almost no goals, assists or key passes, and is very consistently getting very average or even poor match ratings. How would you try to utilize him best in a 3-5-2?

[Deego619]

1 hour ago, ortiz said:

- Counter-pressing, disrupting opponents build-up through pressing and minimizing space, and the opportunity for quick turnovers and counters. Once possession is lost I would like to immediately press the opponent in possession in order to force a turnover or a clearance. If they manage to play out of the initial press the high line and the three midfielders should with a back 5 behind should make us hard to play through and leave the opponent to attempt high-risk balls over the top or to move play wide where the WB and the LCM/RCM should be able to press their wide player efficiently.

So you won the league last season, why would you need to counter press? You're opening up your entire side to counter attacks as you've already set aggressive TIs to press when off the ball. Counter Press will make this even more extreme, to the point of actively self sabotaging your side as teams look to hit you on the break, probably down your flanks.

 

1 hour ago, ortiz said:

the three midfielders with a back 5 behind should make us hard to play through and leave the opponent to attempt high-risk balls over the top or to move play wide where the WB and the LCM/RCM should be able to press their wide player efficiently.

This won't happen, as I said above. You're telling your players to win the ball back at all costs via TI and Counter Pressing. They will not keep shape and gaps are going to be huge. High risk balls suddenly become attacking the space balls.

 

1 hour ago, ortiz said:

- Endless, infuriating crossing. The ball always, unless someone tries to play it long for a striker to run onto, seem to end up on one of the flanks, either through the wingback overlapping when the ball is on their side, or the player in possession hitting these absolutely stunning, pinpoint crossfield through balls to the far side wingback who then, inevitably, proceeds to cross it onto the the first defender for a deflection resulting in a corner. This is by far the most common type of attack I am seeing. As a side note, both me and opponents often reach numbers of crosses attempted far, far higher than the Premier League average.

You're set up to press and pin the opposition in their own half. Since you won the league last season, I guess the opposition are more than happy to allow you to do this. Mez, BBM and AF are all in the center rushing forward into non existent space trying to do something with an opposition who doesn't want to play ball. Naturally the ball will go wide.

 

1 hour ago, ortiz said:

- Stale, inefficient midfield. The above is most likely a result of this. Despite having three midfielders, with a forward dropping to combine and being backed up by three CBs who allow for circulation, we generally get dominated in midfield. We have a hard time keeping possession while opponents seem to very good at playing the ball around and through us. The players seem unwilling to try combinations or moving into space and stubbornly opposed to try any other final passes other than to the wingbacks. The DLP tend to have decent passing stats but the Mezz(A)/CM(A) and the BBM/BWM(S) more often than not look like passengers in the games and receive appropriate low ratings. To me, this seems to be the central problem. My strikers, unless scoring from a long ball/cross, can also get pretty poor ratings, but I believe this is due mostly to poor service originating in a dysfunctional midfield and passing style.

This also is a result of you cramming the opposition in. You've two runners in midfield who are running into no space whatsoever. Try using Serdar in a sitting role (like CM/D or DLP/S) which will allow Cuardrado's extremely attacking role some more space to be effective and link up with the F9.

Overall I think your system is well balanced, but you need to remember what you're trying to do with your TIs. From the look of your TIs, you want to aggressively press and win the ball high up the pitch, but then also attack quickly when the opposition are already camped in their half? Unless you've players with world class playmaking or flair in your attack you're going to struggle to do this. 

In your situation with this formation I would prioritize ball retention, whilst also keeping shape when the ball is lost rather than counter press. Try and strangle the game away from the opposition. You'll probably end up with a lot of 1-0s like Spain 2010, but you may see your midfield being more cohesive and finding the gaps carefully. Cuardrado needs to be able to get past the F9 from deep, and I would try and find a better penetrating MEZ than Bentaleb. For my preferences he lacks the dynamite required for the primary attacking midfielder in a top side, notably Long Shots, Flair and to a lesser extent Pace.

[ortiz]

Thanks for the response, I appreciate the input!

 

3 hours ago, JDeeguain said:

So you won the league last season, why would you need to counter press? You're opening up your entire side to counter attacks as you've already set aggressive TIs to press when off the ball. Counter Press will make this even more extreme, to the point of actively self sabotaging your side as teams look to hit you on the break, probably down your flanks.

Interesting, I kind of casually added counter press because I figured that could help create chances through opposition mistakes and due to having players suited to a counter pressing style. As I said above, defensively we are pretty good and we don't really have a problem with getting hit on the counter but I didn't consder how this could affect our own possession.

 

3 hours ago, JDeeguain said:

You're set up to press and pin the opposition in their own half. Since you won the league last season, I guess the opposition are more than happy to allow you to do this. Mez, BBM and AF are all in the center rushing forward into non existent space trying to do something with an opposition who doesn't want to play ball. Naturally the ball will go wide.

 

3 hours ago, JDeeguain said:

Overall I think your system is well balanced, but you need to remember what you're trying to do with your TIs. From the look of your TIs, you want to aggressively press and win the ball high up the pitch, but then also attack quickly when the opposition are already camped in their half? Unless you've players with world class playmaking or flair in your attack you're going to struggle to do this.

So if I am understanding you correctly I should consider removing "counter press", "counter" and maybe scaling back the pressing a bit which would then hopefully open up more space for my team to play in? Like I said before, I didn't consider our transition and out of possession instructions to be the issue but that actually makes a lot of sense seeing as changing the in possession instructions around hasn't been very effective so far.

 

3 hours ago, JDeeguain said:

This also is a result of you cramming the opposition in. You've two runners in midfield who are running into no space whatsoever. Try using Serdar in a sitting role (like CM/D or DLP/S) which will allow Cuardrado's extremely attacking role some more space to be effective and link up with the F9.

Wouldn't it be a little overkill with two holding midfielders, seeing as I already play with a DLP and 3atB? Ideally I would like the RCM to be a dynamic, supporting presence helping with transitions, winning the ball back and getting into the box at the end of moves which is why I have leaned towards a BBM or BWM with instructions to get further forward.

 

3 hours ago, JDeeguain said:

In your situation with this formation I would prioritize ball retention, whilst also keeping shape when the ball is lost rather than counter press. Try and strangle the game away from the opposition. You'll probably end up with a lot of 1-0s like Spain 2010, but you may see your midfield being more cohesive and finding the gaps carefully. Cuardrado needs to be able to get past the F9 from deep, and I would try and find a better penetrating MEZ than Bentaleb. For my preferences he lacks the dynamite required for the primary attacking midfielder in a top side, notably Long Shots, Flair and to a lesser extent Pace.

I agree with you that he is slightly lacking in creativity and offensive threat and I have been looking into replacing him but honestly I have found only a handful of players in the world who are quicker and have more flair (his two biggest flaws as you rightly pointed out) than him while still being of at least a similar technical (tech/first touch/pass/long shots) and mental (anticipation/composure/OtB) level and most of those are unrealistic transfers.

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, ortiz said:

- Controlled build-up play from the back. The GK, the three CBs and a deeper-lying midfielder should aim to pass it between them to work the ball upfield in a controlled manner before trying to get into the opponent's half with a pass, preferably to a player positioned in the central space or one of the half-spaces. Facing an aggressive side with a high line, the occasional ball over the top for one of the forwards to run onto is fine.

- Quick circulation of the ball and penetration through overloads and combination play in order to create chances. Once in the opponent's half I would like my midfielders to try to link up  with each other and the forwards, playing quick combinations and moving around to disrupt the opponents shape before finding the opportunity for a through ball or space to shoot. The three-man midfield, CBs comfortable on the ball and two forwards dropping or moving into channels should in theory allow for dominating the central area and half spaces. The wing-backs should generally only be more of a wide outlet when the central areas gets congested and used as a secondary option for getting the ball into the box rather than the focus of attacks.

Advice: remove the "pass into space" TI, but add higher tempo and be more expressive instead. The rest of the in-possession TIs is okay. As for the BPD, use him only if he has really good: passing, vision, decisions, first touch, technique, anticipation... because otherwise he tends to play a lot of speculative long through balls, most of which lead to a loss of possession.

 

7 hours ago, ortiz said:

- Counter-pressing, disrupting opponents build-up through pressing and minimizing space, and the opportunity for quick turnovers and counters. Once possession is lost I would like to immediately press the opponent in possession in order to force a turnover or a clearance. If they manage to play out of the initial press the high line and the three midfielders with a back 5 behind should make us hard to play through and leave the opponent to attempt high-risk balls over the top or to move play wide where the WB and the LCM/RCM should be able to press their wide player efficiently.

I see what you want, but I fear that your defensive setting are extremely risky. Especially vulnerable is the left flank with a MEZ on attack, AF and WB on support, and without anybody in DM to provide at least some defensive protection. But even without that, it would still be vulnerable overall because a combo of (much) higher DL, extremely urgent pressing and counter-press - and compounded with a high-risk mentality - is a clear overkill that makes you unnecessarily exposed.

Advice: reduce pressing from extreme to default (I think it's slightly more urgent on positive mentality), remove counter-press and change the mezzala's duty to support. Tighter marking as a team instruction can also be problematic when playing on a higher d-line, so be careful.

If you want to use counter-press anyway, use it only against a lot weaker opposition and/or in a specific situations (e,g, when you desperately need a goal).

Btw, while your right flank is (arguably) a bit less vulnerable than the right, I would suggest changing a BBM to carrilero, so that the attacking CWB gets a bit safer defensive cover.

 

[Rashidi]

My first thought when i looked at the system > where does he want to prioritise his attacking movement from? The flanks? then he really has no protection with 2 roaming roles there, could happen if he has a world class backline and a superman of a DLP. The DLP will have so much work to do that he may end up defending more than he is creating. You want to think about how to utilise the obvious strength that is a WB.

Remember too, that a WB doesn't have to use the flanks all the time, they can also use central midfielders more and be closer to the middle with the right PIs - sit narrower.

The midfield 3 is not something i would use, and I have created 532's early on in FM19, in fact i created a Libero driven system which is still very strong. Counter pressing with a 532 can be very dangerous, and you end up having to play really high up the pitch for that to work well.A lot of the advice given here is solid, you real issue is how you set up roles in midfield and the team instructions in play. 

[ortiz]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Advice: remove the "pass into space" TI, but add higher tempo and be more expressive instead. The rest of the in-possession TIs is okay. As for the BPD, use him only if he has really good: passing, vision, decisions, first touch, technique, anticipation... because otherwise he tends to play a lot of speculative long through balls, most of which lead to a loss of possession.

Thanks, I'll give this a try! Dante is a very accomplished BPD but he is very old so I will keep this mind when replacing him.

I see what you want, but I fear that your defensive setting are extremely risky. Especially vulnerable is the left flank with a MEZ on attack, AF and WB on support, and without anybody in DM to provide at least some defensive protection. But even without that, it would still be vulnerable overall because a combo of (much) higher DL, extremely urgent pressing and counter-press - and compounded with a high-risk mentality - is a clear overkill that makes you unnecessarily exposed.

Advice: reduce pressing from extreme to default (I think it's slightly more urgent on positive mentality), remove counter-press and change the mezzala's duty to support. Tighter marking as a team instruction can also be problematic when playing on a higher d-line, so be careful.

If you want to use counter-press anyway, use it only against a lot weaker opposition and/or in a specific situations (e,g, when you desperately need a goal).

Yeah, you are probably correct in this. Like I have said before, I don't feel like defense has been much of an issue, I rarely concede many good chances but more to your point I think, what does all this pressing actually accomplish? My initial thought was just that the squad, with high attributes in Work Rate, Aggression, Stamina and Tackling would be good at pressing but I didn't necessarily think of if that was actually how I wanted to play.

Btw, while your right flank is (arguably) a bit less vulnerable than the right, I would suggest changing a BBM to carrilero, so that the attacking CWB gets a bit safer defensive cover.

That's true but I would probably be more inclined to change the RWB into something slightly more conservative in that case as I want the RCM to be involved in the final third and producing some goals/assists. But maybe the more balanced setup will result in that anyway?

 

 

48 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

My first thought when i looked at the system > where does he want to prioritise his attacking movement from? The flanks? then he really has no protection with 2 roaming roles there, could happen if he has a world class backline and a superman of a DLP. The DLP will have so much work to do that he may end up defending more than he is creating. You want to think about how to utilise the obvious strength that is a WB.

Thank you for responding! My attacking movement priority would preferably not be the flanks, but rather trying to create chances through the half-space and the adjacent central space. I probably have gone overboard with the CWB(A) on the right side, but this was a consequence of so much of play ending up on the flanks against my will, so for efficiency's sake I rolled with it and it has worked well (the other RWB, Alessandro Schöpf, was my player of the season, in my first season), but it is not how I actually want to play. So this is a question of tactical identity rather than what works. Ideally, the WBs should just be there to provide some width to an otherwise pretty narrow setup and allow us to have some variety to our attacks but they should not be the primary focus of attacks like I feel they end up being now.

Remember too, that a WB doesn't have to use the flanks all the time, they can also use central midfielders more and be closer to the middle with the right PIs - sit narrower.

The midfield 3 is not something i would use, and I have created 532's early on in FM19, in fact i created a Libero driven system which is still very strong. Counter pressing with a 532 can be very dangerous, and you end up having to play really high up the pitch for that to work well.A lot of the advice given here is solid, you real issue is how you set up roles in midfield and the team instructions in play. 

If I may ask, how would you set up the midfielders? I agree with you that I think they are the main issue (along with the over the top pressing the other people in the thread have mentioned) but I have a pretty clear idea of what I want from them. I would like to try to kind of emulate the late Conte/early Allegri midfield with Pogba-Marchisio/Pirlo-Khedira/Vidal. In their setups the midfielders were very involved in the attacks, with the LCM & RCM getting a lot of goals and assists. I have changed Bentaleb to a CMA rather than a MezzA in the last few games and he has improved, and after reading up on those Juventus sides I feel like a central DLP flanked by a more offensive-minded midfielder and some type of supporting, hard working runner on the other side is pretty much how they played. To me this doesn't seem like a too unbalanced setup (one midfielder sitting/circulating play, one creating/scoring and one supporting/running) but I might have this all wrong.

*I managed to mess up the formatting of the quotes, sorry if the post looks slightly weird

[Experienced Defender]

23 minutes ago, ortiz said:

I rarely concede many good chances but more to your point I think, what does all this pressing actually accomplish? My initial thought was just that the squad, with high attributes in Work Rate, Aggression, Stamina and Tackling would be good at pressing but I didn't necessarily think of if that was actually how I wanted to play.

The higher/more urgent the pressing, the more disrupted your defensive shape is, because players tend to move early and more eagerly from their positions in order to press the opposition player with the ball as soon as possible and more aggressively than with a lower or normal pressing intensity. So more space is left behind for the opposition to exploit. Logically, the better your opponent is, the more likely they will be to successfully exploit these gaps you are leaving by high pressing.

The attributes you mentioned - such as stamina, work rate, aggression, tackling (and a few more) - are useful when you play a high-pressing game, but they aren't almighty and there are teams that are able to beat high press even if your players are really good at it. And after all, you can play high pressing football without going to extremes, because geggen-press is just one - the most extreme - type of high pressing, but there are also others that are more nuanced.

33 minutes ago, ortiz said:

That's true but I would probably be more inclined to change the RWB into something slightly more conservative in that case as I want the RCM to be involved in the final third and producing some goals/assists

Yes, that's also a good way to achieve a better balance. So if you prefer that option, then go for it 

[jc577]

6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

My first thought when i looked at the system > where does he want to prioritise his attacking movement from? The flanks? then he really has no protection with 2 roaming roles there, could happen if he has a world class backline and a superman of a DLP. The DLP will have so much work to do that he may end up defending more than he is creating. You want to think about how to utilise the obvious strength that is a WB.

Remember too, that a WB doesn't have to use the flanks all the time, they can also use central midfielders more and be closer to the middle with the right PIs - sit narrower.

The midfield 3 is not something i would use, and I have created 532's early on in FM19, in fact i created a Libero driven system which is still very strong. Counter pressing with a 532 can be very dangerous, and you end up having to play really high up the pitch for that to work well.A lot of the advice given here is solid, you real issue is how you set up roles in midfield and the team instructions in play. 

So would you say that prioritsing central play over flank attacks in a 532 is counter-intuitative? 

[Rashidi]

no I am saying that if you have to force it with focus through middle, then something is wrong. You should first see if your roles and duties help you. Too often, I see generic set ups which hope that setting focus instructions will set them right. Assume you had 3 midfielders and you wanted your attacks to go through the middle but you wanted to make sure that as these happen you also had the option to use a wingback. Here you would use a playmaker kind of role on the side where the WB is situated, thereby using roles and duties to focus play. What if someone were to use a playmaker in the middle, then here play would be directed through him. Now what happens if either side  of him is roaming. 

The moment your wingbacks start attacking and you lose control of the transition, the DLP could find himself defending more than being available for the counter. 

 

[ortiz]

18 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The higher/more urgent the pressing, the more disrupted your defensive shape is, because players tend to move early and more eagerly from their positions in order to press the opposition player with the ball as soon as possible and more aggressively than with a lower or normal pressing intensity. So more space is left behind for the opposition to exploit. Logically, the better your opponent is, the more likely they will be to successfully exploit these gaps you are leaving by high pressing.

The attributes you mentioned - such as stamina, work rate, aggression, tackling (and a few more) - are useful when you play a high-pressing game, but they aren't almighty and there are teams that are able to beat high press even if your players are really good at it. And after all, you can play high pressing football without going to extremes, because geggen-press is just one - the most extreme - type of high pressing, but there are also others that are more nuanced.

Thanks once again for the informative response! Considering what I wrote initially about what I want to achieve tactically, would you mind giving your input on how you would set a 3-5-2 up? I am not looking for just a simple plug-and-play tactic but given that I feel I have become slightly stuck in getting the football to where I want it to be and your insights so far it'd be interesting to hear how you would do it. I have scaled the pressing back a bit and am trying to pay more attention to how the players perform with slight changes to their roles but it can be hard to interpret if I am getting closer to the style I am looking for.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, ortiz said:

would you mind giving your input on how you would set a 3-5-2 up?

I cannot tell you how I would set up a 352 for your team until I know your players, but I can give you some general ideas of how a well-balanved 352/532 may be set up.

 

1 hour ago, ortiz said:

I am not looking for just a simple plug-and-play tactic but given that I feel I have become slightly stuck in getting the football to where I want it to be and your insights so far it'd be interesting to hear how you would do it

Of course. And btw, I neither use nor myself create plug-and-play tactics anyway. I like to help people through concrete examples, because that way it's easier for me to explain what I mean than by giving more general advice.

So, an example of a 352 (based on yours, but slightly modified):

AF    F9

 

MEZsu    DLPde    CAR

WBsu/de                                    CWBsu

BPDde    CDst    CDde

SKde

Team instructions (based on your preferred style):

Mentality - Positive (or even Balanced)

In possession - play out of defence, shorter passing, higher tempo, work ball into box, be more expressive

In transition - counter, distribute to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - higher DL and standard LOE (or much higher DL and higher LOE) - so DL to be one notch higher than LOE; prevent short GKD, offside trap (and nothing more)

If you use Balanced mentality, you can afford to be a bit more attack-minded with roles/duties and some instructions than on Positive, but you still need to make sure you have proper balance and sufficient defensive cover.

Now, another example of a 352 roles and duties possible setup:

AF     F9

 

CAR    BBM     DLPde

CWBsu                                    WBat

BPDde   CDst    CDde

SKde

Here your both flanks are better protected with the CAR and DLP, so you can allow the wing-backs to be a bit more attacking, but now mezzala is gone. So everything comes at the "expense" of something else.