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KI Heynckes

What to do against teams on Defensive just passing the ball around?

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I play with Ajax rn so obviously many teams just play the typical park the Bus strategy. Problem is that in FM the very low mentality means they take no risks at all so when they have the ball they mostly just pass it around between their backline. So with Ajax, playing a 4-2-3-1 and the Dutch 4-3-3 I only have 35% possession against these teams. When I was up 4-0 in a match I tested putting in the most extreme pressing you can do via TIs and PIs but still barely had 40% possession. That's wildly unrealistic, if you look at the Stats in RL in this games against these opponents Ajax have around 70% possession, because obviously these teams mostly go for quick transitions out of the parked bus block instead of  passing the ball with no intent. 

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1 hour ago, phnompenhandy said:

more dribbling, creativity, players with flair ...

That doesn’t get the ball back though. 

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4 minutes ago, howard moon said:

That doesn’t get the ball back though. 

Well if you work out how to get the ball back off the likes of Chelsea, with Sarriball involving passing the opposition into losing concentration, there are a few Premier League job openings for you.

Edited by phnompenhandy

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1 hour ago, KI Heynckes said:

I play with Ajax rn so obviously many teams just play the typical park the Bus strategy. Problem is that in FM the very low mentality means they take no risks at all so when they have the ball they mostly just pass it around between their backline. So with Ajax, playing a 4-2-3-1 and the Dutch 4-3-3 I only have 35% possession against these teams. When I was up 4-0 in a match I tested putting in the most extreme pressing you can do via TIs and PIs but still barely had 40% possession. That's wildly unrealistic, if you look at the Stats in RL in this games against these opponents Ajax have around 70% possession, because obviously these teams mostly go for quick transitions out of the parked bus block instead of  passing the ball with no intent. 

you report it in bugs forum. also you can start discussion in general forum about it in hope they do something about it for fm20.

you can try to edit the database and change managers' attributes like mentality, sitting back, tempo etc but it won't help much. 

Edited by Mitja

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I think the main problem is the interpretation of the mentallities. Cautious and Defensive just reduce risks so these teams rather play around short passes for half an hour than trying to hit you on the counter. And that's just not what real life low blocks and desperate park the bus teams do for the most part. 

I witnessed this myself when I managed Fulham in the matches against the Top 6. When I tried to play with Cautious mentality and sit back it was just a matter of time until they scored, I got like one 0-0 (against Arsenal) in 2 years. Then I started to play still with rather defensive Roles but on Attacking mentality and quick transitions. And the results got way better, could regularly keep up with them, beat City multiple times at Etihad, because I could exploit their extremely aggressive roles. I feel like that's also more what bottom third teams try to do against the Top 6 and also this bottom feeders against Ajax. When the AI would implement this kind of tactics it would also be way more challenging and interesting regarding in-game adjustments.

I hope this gets recognized and explained by someone.

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3 minutes ago, KI Heynckes said:

I hope this gets recognized and explained by someone.

i truelly doubt it since it would take to reverse tactical logics. also there are not many people who see it as a problem.

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vor 7 Minuten schrieb Mitja:

i truelly doubt it since it would take to reverse tactical logics. also there are not many people who see it as a problem.

It's not logical at all, when you see low blocks in real life and in the game instead of counter attacking they turn into possession machines, most of it in their own third. 

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4 minutes ago, KI Heynckes said:

It's not logical at all, when you see low blocks in real life and in the game instead of counter attacking they turn into possession machines, most of it in their own third. 

i agree. this issue (and all it brings) is the biggest reason why i haven't touched fm19 for months. start a topic in general discussion forum. 

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13 minutes ago, KI Heynckes said:

It's not logical at all, when you see low blocks in real life and in the game instead of counter attacking they turn into possession machines, most of it in their own third. 

It’s frustrating when a poor side that has spent 85 minutes defending suddenly starts to keep possession like 2010 Spain. 

The irony is that this is due to a low-risk mentality. Since when did trying to keep the ball just outside your own box become low-risk?

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If you are seeing 40% possession, there is something inherently wrong with your possession system.

Further, if teams are playing the ball around slowly at the back, they aren't "parking the bus".  Parking the bus sees teams sitting deep, soaking up pressure and simply clearing their lines.  They do anything but pass the ball around slowly.  Also, if your team are letting them pass the ball around slowly, there is something else inherently wrong with your system and/or players.  Can the ME's depiction of pressing improve?  Sure, but there are things within your control which can help.

- Line of Engagement (where to start pressing)

- Pressing via TIs and PIs (how much to press)

- The players themselves with relevant attributes (eg., aggression, work rate, determination, stamina)

- Roles and duties

- Mentality

- Formation

- A combination of some/all of the above

As I said above, the ME can certainly improve in this area, but I'm afraid you're kidding yourselves if you blame it 100% on the ME.  If it helps, read through my "Tiki Taka" thread where I cover all of this in detail.

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i bet he using ''too attacking'' mentality and more than 1 attack duty. but then again whole AI world is using it too.

5 minutes ago, herne79 said:

As I said above, the ME can certainly improve in this area, but I'm afraid you're kidding yourselves if you blame it 100% on the ME.  If it helps, read through my "Tiki Taka" thread where I cover all of this in detail.

 

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2 hours ago, Mitja said:

you report it in bugs forum. also you can start discussion in general forum about it in hope they do something about it for fm20.

 

This is textbook blaming the game instead of yourself. You will be highly disappointed with future releases, I suspect.

3 hours ago, KI Heynckes said:

So with Ajax, playing a 4-2-3-1 and the Dutch 4-3-3 I only have 35% possession against these teams.

There are many options. The first is to keep the ball yourself, and attack patiently. This is what happens in real life against teams who park the bus. They are not going to press you heavily, so it is not too hard to keep the ball. In this case, you do not want to use high mentalities yourself, and you will have to think about how to use your players to create space. I would first focus on this, because your team is clearly ceding the ball far too easily to the AI if you are seeing this happen frequently.

You also can press as high as possible, and as hard as possible. Use opposition instructions to further close down. Use man marking to put pressure on defensive players. Especially, man mark central midfielders, and close down defenders. The man marking on midfielders takes away passing options, and defenders are usually not that comfortable on the ball, so closing them down can rush them into a long ball or a bad pass. 

Something I do is to flood players forward to tempt them into putting a long ball to their striker, and trust in my defence to handle it well. They play low risk, but they will not ignore a long ball to a striker in space (that is not very risky, after all). 

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5 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

This is textbook blaming the game instead of yourself. You will be highly disappointed with future releases, I suspect.

i'd have no problem with achieving more possession. but there's fundamental flaw in how direct, counter attacking and possessional tactics are represented in FM.  defensive mentality suits more patient and possessional aproach and attacking mentality more direct/counter attacking. it's been a well known fact for long here.

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Just now, Mitja said:

d49675626ddb411ceea71122f65d8532.png

AI vs AI match. wonder why Guardiola gets sacked by december in every second save?

 

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41 minutes ago, Mitja said:

 

Please stay on topic.  AI vs AI matches have got nothing to do with the original poster's questions.  If you have an issue with AI managers and their tactics, please start a separate thread.

53 minutes ago, Mitja said:

defensive mentality suits more patient and possessional aproach and attacking mentality more direct/counter attacking. it's been a well known fact for long here.

I'm afraid you have your facts wrong.  All of those styles of football you mention are a combination of many factors, not just Mentality.  For example, a Counter Attack in the Match Engine starts under certain conditions - those conditions are relaxed when using the Defensive, Cautious or Overload mentalities.  It is also more a function of formation, so expect more Counter Attacks with deep formations compared to top heavy formations.  Now combine a deep formation with the Defensive mentality and that arguably becomes the most suitable combination for playing Counter Attacking football.

Likewise a patient possessional approach is suited to a variety of Mentalities but depends on the rest your set up.

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4 hours ago, KI Heynckes said:

Then I started to play still with rather defensive Roles but on Attacking mentality and quick transitions.

I think its about 'balance' and that's what @herne79 was demonstrating in his thread.  Some managers use role/duties/instructions to modify how the team plays.  If you play on cautious and everyone has a support or defend duty then the team will actually become downright defensive.  You are multiplying the defensive nature of the tactic.  You want some players to be cautious as per the overall aim but to get out or to break you need runners from the deep block you've created.  So you need some attacking players in your cautious system.

Same is true in reverse.  Attack mentality and attack roles just combine to make you all out attacking, close space and leave you vulnerable to the counter.  You need depth which come from defensive roles to open spaces for playmakers and shuttlers, pull defenders about.  Again it is about balance.  An example is the halfback role.  Have a look at its description.  He drops between defenders to help guard against counterattacks.  Pep has used this role in his systems.  It is a defend duty role designed for an attack mentality tactic.

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb herne79:

If you are seeing 40% possession, there is something inherently wrong with your possession system.

Further, if teams are playing the ball around slowly at the back, they aren't "parking the bus".  Parking the bus sees teams sitting deep, soaking up pressure and simply clearing their lines.  They do anything but pass the ball around slowly.  Also, if your team are letting them pass the ball around slowly, there is something else inherently wrong with your system and/or players.  Can the ME's depiction of pressing improve?  Sure, but there are things within your control which can help.

- Line of Engagement (where to start pressing)

- Pressing via TIs and PIs (how much to press)

- The players themselves with relevant attributes (eg., aggression, work rate, determination, stamina)

- Roles and duties

- Mentality

- Formation

- A combination of some/all of the above

As I said above, the ME can certainly improve in this area, but I'm afraid you're kidding yourselves if you blame it 100% on the ME.  If it helps, read through my "Tiki Taka" thread where I cover all of this in detail.

I definitely don't want to blame everything on the ME, I'd like to blame not one percent on the match engine because it would give me a better feeling playing the game but obviously there are some flaws in it. My point wasn't as much about my own tactics (which in this situation kinda is based on your thread) than about this unrealistic AI behaviour. I didn't study their attributes for hours, but if the Ajax squad couldn't play pressing, they are just badly researched. I played with much higher LOE, Counter Pressing and the offensive 5 in the system with Close Down More PI. If this isn't enough I don't know what is. When I watched some minutes in Full Match mode there were situations were my team totally pressed them and they had to heave it to the side, but that was the exception. And after everything I read I'm pretty sure that Lower mentalities decrease risk taking and transition pace, and that's just not what these teams do against Ajax. I watched some @Rashidi videos and when he is the underdog he, I feel like, mostly plays with (extreme) high mentalities to get those quick transitions.

I was in the stadium for Hannover vs. Leverkusen tonight and in the first minutes where the pitch was still in okay conditions you could clearly see the same scenario I have seen countless times in FM. Leverkusen with the Dutch 4-3-3 with possession and Hannover in a deep 4-2-3-1 shape. But when Hannover won the ball they didn't try to hold the ball and play slow, they tried to get really quick transitions and hit the high D-line and the Full Backs on the break or long balls to their Target Man to go for 2nd balls. 

And teams that play me with this Defensive mentality tactics theoretically should replicate this behaviour but that's not what happens in FM. You can't just dismiss this Pep example as "AI vs. AI", Pep's ultra aggressive tactic is based on some similar principles than "mine" and West Ham will play the same Defensive outlet I described. Theoretically the tactics of such a match are resembled correctly but the Defensive West Ham side just doesn't attack and transition like they would do in real life. I looked it up and City had 75% possession and 780 passes in their recent meeting at Etihad. 

I'll do some more tests on this in this Ajax save, and yeah I maybe could create more possession with throwing in more instructions like Shorter Passing and Lower Tempo instead of just WBIB and Play Out Of Defence but that's not what Juego de Posicion or Dutch Total Voetbal is about. I could let my players play 1000 meaningless passes in the 1st and early middle Third of the pitch to get possession numbers up, but that's definitely not what this approaches are based on.

Edited by KI Heynckes

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7 minutes ago, KI Heynckes said:

I was in the stadium for Hannover vs. Leverkusen tonight and in the first minutes where the pitch was still in okay conditions you could clearly see the same scenario I have seen countless times in FM. Leverkusen with the Dutch 4-3-3 with possession and Hannover in a deep 4-2-3-1 shape. But when Hannover won the ball they didn't try to hold the ball and play slow, they tried to get really quick transitions and hit the high D-line and the Full Backs on the break or long balls to their Target Man to go for 2nd balls.

I've watched this game too (on TV tho) and the reason why IRL Teams wont do what they do on FM is pretty simple. They can't, a "bad" side will never be able to cycle possesion vs a "strong" high pressing team with much better technical skills. SI should really think if they cant exclude the passing mentality from it or increase the pressing efficency... Like they can keep possession if them want and if we let them but once they getting pressed they need to play the long ball or some very risky maneuver or the simply loose possession.

You can see this every weekend on your league.

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46 minutes ago, KI Heynckes said:

And teams that play me with this Defensive mentality tactics theoretically should replicate this behaviour but that's not what happens in FM. You can't just dismiss this Pep example as "AI vs. AI", Pep's ultra aggressive tactic is based on some similar principles than "mine" and West Ham will play the same Defensive outlet I described.

I see what you are saying.

You can play on an attack mentality as Herne79 and others have discussed but arguably a lot of the possession when you play on attack is coming from proficiency at winning the ball back.  As you prescribe the flip side of attack mentality is fast transition and against such entrenched opposition that can just result in FM19 as turnovers.  In the example from earlier in this thread (City v Newcastle) it looks like City may have just been doing that, stuck in attack mode, win the ball lots but fail to do much with it other than force shots and crosses.  Whereas Newcastle played cautious, risk-free unadventurous keep ball.  Agree that it's probably not how so many teams play in real life.

Maybe SI does adjust that balance a bit on the next version.  But for now, how do you combat that yourself and seemingly do what A.I. Pep can't?

If you stay with attack maybe go all-in & embrace long shots, go direct to switch the play faster or just win some 2nd balls that aren't defended properly.  Don't think you'll like that.  Probably not very Ajax.

Or drop your mentality and create depth to keep the ball better and alongside a good press system wear them down.  Maybe try and get an overload where one side of the field is more possession heavy than the other to draw the defence and leave 1 v1 on the blindside.  Yes, with this 2nd option you may lose some speed, especially if you go too defensive yourself, even with a high tempo, and that may be another frustration.  But you might get closer to controlling the game in the way I think you're after.

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5 hours ago, KI Heynckes said:

When I watched some minutes in Full Match mode there were situations were my team totally pressed them and they had to heave it to the side, but that was the exception. And after everything I read I'm pretty sure that Lower mentalities decrease risk taking and transition pace, and that's just not what these teams do against Ajax. I watched some @Rashidi videos and when he is the underdog he, I feel like, mostly plays with (extreme) high mentalities to get those quick transitions.

I was in the stadium for Hannover vs. Leverkusen tonight and in the first minutes where the pitch was still in okay conditions you could clearly see the same scenario I have seen countless times in FM. Leverkusen with the Dutch 4-3-3 with possession and Hannover in a deep 4-2-3-1 shape. But when Hannover won the ball they didn't try to hold the ball and play slow, they tried to get really quick transitions and hit the high D-line and the Full Backs on the break or long balls to their Target Man to go for 2nd balls. 

And teams that play me with this Defensive mentality tactics theoretically should replicate this behaviour but that's not what happens in FM. You can't just dismiss this Pep example as "AI vs. AI", Pep's ultra aggressive tactic is based on some similar principles than "mine" and West Ham will play the same Defensive outlet I described. Theoretically the tactics of such a match are resembled correctly but the Defensive West Ham side just doesn't attack and transition like they would do in real life. I looked it up and City had 75% possession and 780 passes in their recent meeting at Etihad. 

Ok seems like I have been pulled into this discussion :-)

Personally speaking one can generate plenty of styles on ANY mentality. This game is a funny one. While we have some presets that are available what many people fail to grasp is that its the inter-relationship between team instructions, mentality, player instructions and traits that give your systems the flavour you want.

Presently I am playing with the Firefox system for FM19, tbh I will be talking about it a bit later in my videos and will probably release a handbook of tactics like I did for FM18 to the community at large. 

When I want to play a quick counter attacking game I can do it on any mentality. I can play a safe counter attacking game with lower mentalities and I can play a surgical counter attacking game which will probably produce more shots on higher mentalities, but what is fundamental to both is I am using the same formation with the same roles and duties. What is different is how I apply team instructions and player instructions to get the effect. If I play on a lower mentality I will probably feel like I need prayer beads to escape, and my hands will firmly be between my legs so no jewels drop off.

When I play my more positive style I feel like any chance I get to get out will be a goal scoring chance provided the right players get the ball. Team instructions and player instructions can be incredibly important if you want to create your own style. 

To echo what Herne has said, if you are playing on a lower mentality and you are generating low possession numbers you are obviously doing something different.

A lower mentality encourages low risk taking, but you can offset that by asking your players to be more aggressive.  Here is where you need to apply your Defensive Line/LOE properly.  If the defensive line is too low, then the commitment to moving forward isn't there. Too low an LoE and your players start their pressing too late. A low loe can't even work with prevent short gk distribution, and unnecessarily high pressing PIs are just gonna tear your team apart.

So when playing with a low mentality what do I normally do. I can easily generate obscene possession amounts with a good side, with patient buildups, but if I wanted more direct buildups I would change my passing instructions. I would also think about my formation in general and  assess where these chaps are attacking space. Now my duties are going to be very important and the use of my team instructions.

Some team instructions will serve to increase the risk profile of certain players. I could easily play a 4123 as a 343 in the midfield consolidation phase and a 325 in the attacking phase with overlaps. This will kick my backs into attacking mentalities with the right roles. If I wanted to I could play with a high LOE and I keep the opposition stuck in their half.

If I want my defenders not to keep passing the ball in their own half unnecessarily I wouldn't use play out of defence as a team instruction. 

Now  there are also people who claim that they cannot generate high possession numbers with attacking mentalities, but this is also possible, just look at the team instructions and player instructions and change them to allow your team to keep the ball effectively. Whenever you change mentality it changes 4 main team instructions in the game, if you wanted to play a certain style and you wanted to maintain the risk profile but needed a different flavour you would just change the TIs and PIs.

You can easily play on an attacking mentality with high possession numbers without the opposition ever touching the ball. How do you do that? You play with the right roles and duties, but more importantly is how you apply the PIs and TIs, a common mistake I see people making when they have issues with higher mentalities is that they don't even change tempo.

 

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I don't think there's anything wrong with the coding logic of the tactics module in the current FM version. Cautious should be low risk with and without ball and attacking should be high risk with and without ball. This is how it is currently which is correct. What's wrong is the AI manager logic which currently doesn't know how to play low block quick transition system on higher mentality against a top side for example. If the AI manager can combine low block, low LOE, low press and lots of defensive duties on higher mentalities, we may get realistic real life results.

As for the OP, play a patient style yourself. Since you have better players as Ajax, you won't give the ball away to your opponent. Ask your forwards to man Mark their defenders so they can't circulate the ball endlessly. It's actually not that difficult to get your team to play how you want. All you need to do is just watch a match in full and you will get the ideas. You can resume watching matches on key, extended or comprehensive once you have cracked your style of play puzzle. You can't just magically expect your team to be invincibles on FM these days. Your opponent also tries hard to stop you from what you are doing. The AI logic has improved in this area from previous FMs.

Edited by pats

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15 hours ago, Mitja said:

i'd have no problem with achieving more possession. but there's fundamental flaw in how direct, counter attacking and possessional tactics are represented in FM.  defensive mentality suits more patient and possessional aproach and attacking mentality more direct/counter attacking. it's been a well known fact for long here.

And? Patient possession based approaches aren't attacking. It is a common misconception in football in general. Take Tiki Taka. The possession numbers achieved there are not an offensive tactic, they are defensive tactic. Passing the ball to keep hold of it, in order to prevent the other team possessing the ball. No possession means fewer chances to score. That is how patience and control works. Most of the time you are literally not attacking.

Same goes for what you call direct attacking. Getting the ball forward quickly, trying to score fast. That is attacking football. Gegenpressing does this, with the ball being won high up the pitch. Solksjaer is also doing this, based around defending and getting the ball forwards quickly. This is much more attacking than tiki taka, or at least the core element that is possession. Which, I reiterate, is defensive. When does Tiki Taka get attacking? When they play direct football.

Besides, you are fundamentally missing the point with the different mentalities. You absolutely do not have to play defensive to play possession, not attacking to play on the counter. It is all about how the mentality changes affect the team. Lower mentalities give less risk. That means players will keep the ball better by default, since they will look for a safe pass over a risky through ball. Higher mentalities increase the risk, and so you get the opposite effect. This is exactly how it should be. I do not want my team messing about with short risk free passes if I have an attacking mentality. I want the ball to go forward quickly. Coupled to this, tempo and passing length are reduced/increased for lower/higher mentalities. This is related to the risk factor. If you are expecting attacking mentalities to yield higher possession stats, or whatever, it is you who are wrong. With all due respect, in that case I would suggest you do not understand how football works very well.

It is absolutely possible to play a counter attacking tactic with a defensive mentality. I do it all the time in my current save. I can still have players counter attacking because they have the right role and duty. I can be direct and fast because I use TIs and PIs to get the ball forward quicker. When we do not counter, we use a defensive possession oriented approach of not taking risks. It works pretty well.

Same goes for possession based attacking approaches. You can use roles and duties, TIs and PIs to take the good parts of an attacking mentality (being direct, taking risks, etc) and mix them with things that will encourage your players to be patient until the right moment. This is how my main tactic plays, pretty much, although I do not really used possession as a tool right now since my side is not really good enough to make it work.

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both in real life and according to FM description:

low risk mentality = direct counter attacking one where team relies on quick transitioning from lower block to expose space behind opponents. usually employed by underdogs.

high risk mentality = relies on controling possession in opponents half, overlapping fullbacks, more aggressive roles and duties. usually employed by better teams.

in FM what happens when attacking team meets defensive one (like on the pic posted) is the opposite to football logics and game description. issue with defensive team here is that such tactics are overpowered possession wise and show no desire to score. no underdog team would ever try to employ such ultra possessinal style as the main tactics for 90 min, there is  no manager in this world that would try to outpass Cities and Barcas but such scenario happens all the time in the game. while it is possible to battle such tactics (usually with lower mentality tactics) most people who don't visit these forums will have no idea how to do it. the same is true for AI. 

 

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13 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Patient possession based approaches aren't attacking. It is a common misconception in football in general.

there is no such thing as attacking football. controling possession in opponents half style  is riskier than playing on counters.

16 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Getting the ball forward quickly, trying to score fast. That is attacking football.

 some would call it counter attacking football. ask Brazilians or Spanish.

18 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

You absolutely do not have to play defensive to play possession, not attacking to play on the counter.

yes it depends on many other things but try same tactics on defensive and attacking and watch what happens.

20 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Lower mentalities give less risk. That means players will keep the ball better by default, since they will look for a safe pass over a risky through ball.

spot on. exactly what i'm saying that's why lower mentalities are more possessional.

24 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

This is exactly how it should be. I do not want my team messing about with short risk free passes if I have an attacking mentality. I want the ball to go forward quickly. Coupled to this, tempo and passing length are reduced/increased for lower/higher mentalities.

looks like you're more of counter attacking manager. it should be the opposite if attacking style meens controlling possession in opponents half.

 

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Are there issues with how AI managers set up their tactics?  Generally speaking not really, but there are however obvious examples of where things can be improved - AI Pep and possession based systems being a prime example.  It can be immersion breaking seeing AI Pep averaging somewhere around 50% possession which doesn't even come close to reality.  Such examples would be great things to upload to the Bugs forum for SI to analyse and (hopefully) evolve.

Without wanting to get too deeply into AI tactics (which isn't really what the original intention of the thread is about after all) for me AI tactics boil down to a basic building block of: numbers of attack duty players being relative to the Mentality used.  In general, the more aggressive the Mentality the more attack duties are used; the less aggressive the fewer attack duties.  And that can become a fundamental flaw for AI possession systems - AI Pep (to continue the example) could well be using an aggressive Mentality due to the high rep of Man City and quality of players which, when combined with a high number of attack duties could well ruin his possession system.

But of course AI Pep is just another AI manager who follows the same basic logic path in creating a tactic as every other AI manager.  In that screenshot above of Man City only getting 48% possession, Newcastle aren't getting more possession simply because they have or haven't adopted a defensive tactic, a lot of it is down to AI Man City (Pep) using an aggressive mentality with lots of attack duty players, thus destroying their own possession - they're playing direct football, not possession football.  The number of passes made and shots attempted backs that up.

But anyway, to drag this back to the OP and our own tactical systems, possession football (or better, possession with intent football) is a combination of several factors, Mentality being just one of them.  And that's where we hold the advantage over AI managers.  We can be flexible in how we set up systems and use all the tactical tools at our disposal in creative ways which the AI simply isn't capable of doing.  So from the AI's perspective it may well use Mentality to drive possession but us human managers are not so limited.

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People need to separate mentality and duties. Too many times I see tactics that use balanced or conservative mentality with 7 support duties told to pass short, retain position, slow pace down and take less risks. I mean who is going to score or even take the ball forward in this kind of system? No wonder you end up giving more possession to AI. Your players are so conservative they refuse to pass the ball up, simply passing it sideways and backward in the midfield until it is stolen by AI.

For possession system to work, your need to put some bite into it. Identify the runners and scorers, such as shadow strikers or wingers, depending how you want to attack. So system with 3 attack duties such as in central striker and two wingbacks with rest on support and defence will still work as possession system if you start with balanced mentality for instance.

Edited by crusadertsar

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Mentality affects 6 things

There are things in the game that allow you to negate that, nuff said. Said it for years sick of saying it again. If you cant play probing games with attacking mentalities generating high possession, you just arent' as good as you think

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Might be just me but I've got a bit lost with today's posts, lol.:D

Rashidi mentioned Firefox (no idea) and then later appeared to tell somebody off - not sure who - for making him sick of posting.  Sporadsmiles had his post broken into pieces by Mijta   And Herne said he didn't want to get into AI tactics as that wasn't the point even though, to me, that's exactly what we're talking about. 

I'll have to look again tomorrow and see if I can make sense of half of it.:)

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8 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

And Herne said he didn't want to get into AI tactics as that wasn't the point even though, to me, that's exactly what we're talking about

That's because the thread's original intention is about the OP's own tactic and "what to do against teams on defensive just passing the ball around" (thread title).  I'm just trying (and failing) to keep things on topic.

Keep things on topic on a public forum?  I must be barking ;).

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I also see this situation in FM. The AI tactic is called 'possession football' according to Guide to Football (https://www.guidetofootball.com/tactics/composite-styles#possession-football), which is a combination of low mentality and short pass. To tell the truth, it is not possible to dominate possession when facing such a team, even use high pressing, high DL/LoE, and PI/OI, all these you can. I have tried a lot so you can trust me. So just forget possession. The goal is to make more goals then the opposite, so just focus on improving the attacking effeciency. Also be careful, if you try too high pressing, it may be dengerous that they may exploit your defensive weakness. And when you are leading the score, if you like, you can use the same strategy, low mentality and extramly short pass, that will help to pull the possession back to 50%:50%.

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37 minutes ago, Dr.Y said:

I also see this situation in FM. The AI tactic is called 'possession football' according to Guide to Football (https://www.guidetofootball.com/tactics/composite-styles#possession-football), which is a combination of low mentality and short pass. To tell the truth, it is not possible to dominate possession when facing such a team, even use high pressing, high DL/LoE, and PI/OI, all these you can. I have tried a lot so you can trust me. So just forget possession. The goal is to make more goals then the opposite, so just focus on improving the attacking effeciency. Also be careful, if you try too high pressing, it may be dengerous that they may exploit your defensive weakness. And when you are leading the score, if you like, you can use the same strategy, low mentality and extramly short pass, that will help to pull the possession back to 50%:50%.

Haha, if the AI tries a low Mentality system hoping to generate high possession against me and win, it will get absolutely battered by me on FM.

A low Mentality system is just a low risk system. It’s so easy to dominate it. It’s about how you use the whole toolkit. I have already explained how in other threads and on my channel and I know others have too, but it seems to me like no one is listening, so I am going to stop explaining why and give cryptic, “that’s garbage” responses.

 

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8 hours ago, herne79 said:

That's because the thread's original intention is about the OP's own tactic and "what to do against teams on defensive just passing the ball around" (thread title).  I'm just trying (and failing) to keep things on topic.

Keep things on topic on a public forum?  I must be barking ;).

Have you seen the tactic?

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6 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Haha, if the AI tries a low Mentality system hoping to generate high possession against me and win, it will get absolutely battered by me on FM.

A low Mentality system is just a low risk system. It’s so easy to dominate it. It’s about how you use the whole toolkit. I have already explained how in other threads and on my channel and I know others have too, but it seems to me like no one is listening, so I am going to stop explaining why and give cryptic, “that’s garbage” responses.

 

Exactly. Those teams get mauled against my team. My forward harass their defenders with the ball, so they lose possession quick. I even score from catching their defenders in possession or interceptions from passes by their defenders. I'm the one camping out in their half, rather than the other way around.

 

These things may be AI issues, but they shouldn't be for users. 

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4 分钟前, Rashidi说:

Haha, if the AI tries a low Mentality system hoping to generate high possession against me and win, it will get absolutely battered by me on FM.

A low Mentality system is just a low risk system. It’s so easy to dominate it. It’s about how you use the whole toolkit. I have already explained how in other threads and on my channel and I know others have too, but it seems to me like no one is listening, so I am going to stop explaining why and give cryptic, “that’s garbage” responses.

 

Can you give a link here, I am interested to read. In my opinion, same low mentality can also create quite different football, such as direct passing "Long ball" football, and possession based football. To dominate possession is quite easy when against long ball football, but when facing possession football, sometimes it is not. For example at my current save, I keep already more than 60 matches unbeaten in the league with Man Utd, sometimes I face such teams, some of them are strong teams, playing a 4141 or 42dm31 shape. It is very hard to win a high possession. The main problem is that when they get control, they just pass short in their own half, even I use two pressing forward and one MWM with highest engageline and pressing urgency, I can not make possession more than 40%, while facing other opposite with similar tactic, I can usually make possession between 60% and 70%. 

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1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Have you seen the tactic?

Quite.

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Today's news:

Hunter goes camping.

Dr Y forgets possession.

Rashidi and Herne have lost a tactic.  Can't find the damn thing anywhere.

:D

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Am 12.3.2019 um 09:49 schrieb Rashidi:

Haha, if the AI tries a low Mentality system hoping to generate high possession against me and win, it will get absolutely battered by me on FM.

A low Mentality system is just a low risk system. It’s so easy to dominate it. It’s about how you use the whole toolkit. I have already explained how in other threads and on my channel and I know others have too, but it seems to me like no one is listening, so I am going to stop explaining why and give cryptic, “that’s garbage” responses.

 

Could you please maybe link such a post/video where you explain this? I srarched through your profile for half an hour and still have no idea how to solve this.

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2 hours ago, KI Heynckes said:

Could you please maybe link such a post/video where you explain this? I srarched through your profile for half an hour and still have no idea how to solve this.

I have videos on my youtube channel which explain how you can break down defensive sides, and I also have a tactic video called Liquid 4123 which is played on attacking mentalities and generates high possession numbers you can even look at the latest Kop Diaries episodes where I use my Liquid system with Liverpool. All I do is play on attacking mentality. Against weaker sides who camp sometimes they never leave their half so in breaking defensive. sides I show one approach where I actually go in with more attacking duties, some roles help to stretch a team wide. With the Kop Diaries I just pummel sides, there are sides that are very defensive, but when good sides go defensive on me like City they get hammered by big margins, because they do sometimes get out.

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Just to answer the OP, what's worked for me it's to adjust settings in "out of possession" section of the tactics page.

Depending on your favorite tactic and players, either press aggressively and push high up the field, or sit back and soak the pressure with minimal pressing and deep defensive line. Either way, counter with force.

 

 

 

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In this debate, instead of thinking in terms of sides parking the bus or defensive mentalities, it’s be more useful to think about underdog teams. 

Its perfectly conceivable a team IRL and also the within the constraints of the FM match engine could play low risk mentality with short passes and generate a lot of possession. I can’t think of a single example of an underdog team playing this way IRL. Just look at any PL game between the Big 6 and Other 14. There is usually a huge gulf in possession stats. 

I actually feel FM19 has got better at ending this possession anomaly compared to previous versions. The ME itself isn’t the problem here. It’s slightly too easy for players to retain possession facing a heavy press but not too far off. 

The AI is more the issue. No manager of an underdog team IRL sets them up to slowly retain the ball in a low block. However, this is almost the default for managers in FM and it’s why possession stats are not currently that realistic. 

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb AFCBeer:

In this debate, instead of thinking in terms of sides parking the bus or defensive mentalities, it’s be more useful to think about underdog teams. 

Its perfectly conceivable a team IRL and also the within the constraints of the FM match engine could play low risk mentality with short passes and generate a lot of possession. I can’t think of a single example of an underdog team playing this way IRL. Just look at any PL game between the Big 6 and Other 14. There is usually a huge gulf in possession stats. 

I actually feel FM19 has got better at ending this possession anomaly compared to previous versions. The ME itself isn’t the problem here. It’s slightly too easy for players to retain possession facing a heavy press but not too far off. 

The AI is more the issue. No manager of an underdog team IRL sets them up to slowly retain the ball in a low block. However, this is almost the default for managers in FM and it’s why possession stats are not currently that realistic. 

That's what I said in the beginning and obviously it's just the truth, but so called "experts" like the arrogant Herne acted like I just wanted to blame my stupidty on the ME and that I just don't know football.

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