FC St. Pauli 4-1-4-1

[DaggerPaul]

Looking to create a high press/possession tactic for my FCSP team.

Decent start so far, 2nd in Bundesliga 2 after 16 games. Proving solid in defence, only 4 goals conceeded, but looking for more penetration in attack with 16 goals scored. 

Looking for any advice on any glaring errors in the below tactic.

I'm looking for the mezzala and inverted winger to get forward in the channels between opposition centre backs and full backs. The wide playmaker will hopefully tuck into the centre, and the left side wing back creating width on that flank, just a little unsure to make the wing back attacking. The BWM(D) also has me pondering if he is a wise choice, my go to role for that position is normally DM(D). Up front the pressing forward is on support so he isn't isolated and has the PI hold position.

The idea of using slightly lower tempo is to allow the mezzala and inverted winger time to get forward into the positions I want them in attack, and also the wing back to get up in support.

Player Instructions:-

DC(L/R) - Take Fewer Risks

BWM(D) - Mark Tighter

Mezzala & DLP(S) - Close Down More, Mark Tighter

IW(A) - Roam From Position, Close Down More

PF(S) - Hold Position

[AndySummers]

Some thoughts (not all necessarily applicable at once):

• It's too safe. The shape is basically ten men behind the ball which is then paired with a defensive midfielder and a deep-lying playmaker.
• Not sure midfield role distribution helps - presume on a heat map the four end up in an almost parallelogram shape? Is gapping causing an issue?
• Playing standard width with both widemen coming inside but not really able to exploit space to the full with supporting wingback/fullback. Lacks stratification.
• Lower tempo gives opponents time to get back into position, the lack of width makes it difficult for you to stretch them. In this way it seems you will have to rely on passing through the lines to break a team down. The 'hold position' PF isn't moving opponents about either, with the two attacking mids essentially wanting to come into/towards his space too. There doesn't seem to be many obvious passing lanes to break an opponent down.
• I see where you are going with the WP(s); it's a role I use often, but I pair that with a very aggressive wingback or fullback. WP will/can draw opponents out of position - exploit it.

I'd ratchet up your ability to stretch the opposition. Potentially give yourself a deep threat with a wingback raiding heavily, play wider, or give yourself an out and out winger. Or even a wide midfielder. Something that can offer the ability to pull a tight opposition backline further apart and/or allow you to exploit natural spaces. I'd also consider changing the central midfield combinations; DLP (d) or (s) at the back if you want a playmaker, and have the current DLP(s) as something that will offer more in the offensive phase and sit closer to your two attacking midfielders (if you keep those roles)? Or keep the BWM and give the current DLP(s) more freedom? Or use the naturally defensive aspect of your shape to your advantage and go much more aggressive in the centre with a REG and a different combo ahead?

Just a couple of ideas without being able to see any analysis, but there are many options.

[DaggerPaul]

7 hours ago, AndySummers said:

Some thoughts (not all necessarily applicable at once):

• It's too safe. The shape is basically ten men behind the ball which is then paired with a defensive midfielder and a deep-lying playmaker.
• Not sure midfield role distribution helps - presume on a heat map the four end up in an almost parallelogram shape? Is gapping causing an issue?
• Playing standard width with both widemen coming inside but not really able to exploit space to the full with supporting wingback/fullback. Lacks stratification.
• Lower tempo gives opponents time to get back into position, the lack of width makes it difficult for you to stretch them. In this way it seems you will have to rely on passing through the lines to break a team down. The 'hold position' PF isn't moving opponents about either, with the two attacking mids essentially wanting to come into/towards his space too. There doesn't seem to be many obvious passing lanes to break an opponent down.
• I see where you are going with the WP(s); it's a role I use often, but I pair that with a very aggressive wingback or fullback. WP will/can draw opponents out of position - exploit it.

I'd ratchet up your ability to stretch the opposition. Potentially give yourself a deep threat with a wingback raiding heavily, play wider, or give yourself an out and out winger. Or even a wide midfielder. Something that can offer the ability to pull a tight opposition backline further apart and/or allow you to exploit natural spaces. I'd also consider changing the central midfield combinations; DLP (d) or (s) at the back if you want a playmaker, and have the current DLP(s) as something that will offer more in the offensive phase and sit closer to your two attacking midfielders (if you keep those roles)? Or keep the BWM and give the current DLP(s) more freedom? Or use the naturally defensive aspect of your shape to your advantage and go much more aggressive in the centre with a REG and a different combo ahead?

Just a couple of ideas without being able to see any analysis, but there are many options.

Thanks for the advice, appreciated.

Got in a couple of games last night, both at home against teams struggling in the division.

First up Greuther Furth.

The opposition set themselves up with a 5-4-1, 3 DC's and 2 FB's. I used my tactical setup from post 1 and struggled, basically failed, to break them down.

Next game I tried to revamp the midfield a bit, made the left WB attacking, and dropped the 'Hold Position' TI for my PF(S) but adding 'Roam From Position'. I also used the TI 'Play Wider' and dropped 'Lower Tempo'.

Magdeburg set themselves up with a narrow defensive formation 3 DC's, 2 WB's, a holding midfielder in a diamnond formation.

Created a lot more chances, this time struggled to put the ball in the net.

Starting the winter break now, but going to have further tinker with the midfield. I'll give these roles and duties 3-4 games and maybe look to change the PF(S) to DLF(S) if need be.

[Pavi]

@DaggerPaul

My two cents on this are the following: Your system is clearly good as you stand 2nd in the league, but it seems to me that you are stuck between a press-counter TI and a possession-based TI. Choose one and go all the way through. If you want some magnificent advice on how to build a tiki-taka style on this ME (FM19) then take a look of this magnificent post:

https://community.sigames.com/topic/465977-developing-my-4123dm-wide-tiki-taka/

 

Otherwise, some thoughts:

- You did well to put the DLP in the DM strata, I would have chosen a AP if kept in midfield. That is because you need someone linking midfield with the striker centrally and a DLP is too static for that. You chose a BWM-S which is a good option to accelarate the passing rythm. If he has good technique, passing, and vision, I'd try to add a PI to pass more direct. 

- You play with a Positive mentality, which means it increases the pace, but I would keep standard tempo.

- If you want more penetration, as the previous comment said, the flat 4141 means you spend a lot of time with 10 men behind the ball in defence or passing the ball with the oposition defence well in place, so why don't you try the "pass into space" and "counter" TI? What I mean is that you are set up to have a close block that press high, but once they win the ball back there is little asking them to quickly run into the box or play ball behind the defence.

- If you want a pure possession-based style, than you keep the TI as such but then I'd go for a 4141 with AMR/L (433 or 41221). I'd use "shorter passing" rather than "slower tempo" (both of them is an overkill). I'd also turn the WB-A into a WB-S, as in a possession-based system you don't seek crosses from the byline but passing option outwide. On that regard I would also ask both FB to "cross less often".

 

Good luck and excellent choice with St. Pauli, they are one of my fetish team, such a special club!
 

 

[DaggerPaul]

3 hours ago, Pavi said:

@DaggerPaul

My two cents on this are the following: Your system is clearly good as you stand 2nd in the league, but it seems to me that you are stuck between a press-counter TI and a possession-based TI. Choose one and go all the way through. If you want some magnificent advice on how to build a tiki-taka style on this ME (FM19) then take a look of this magnificent post:

https://community.sigames.com/topic/465977-developing-my-4123dm-wide-tiki-taka/

 

Otherwise, some thoughts:

- You did well to put the DLP in the DM strata, I would have chosen a AP if kept in midfield. That is because you need someone linking midfield with the striker centrally and a DLP is too static for that. You chose a BWM-S which is a good option to accelarate the passing rythm. If he has good technique, passing, and vision, I'd try to add a PI to pass more direct. 

- You play with a Positive mentality, which means it increases the pace, but I would keep standard tempo.

- If you want more penetration, as the previous comment said, the flat 4141 means you spend a lot of time with 10 men behind the ball in defence or passing the ball with the oposition defence well in place, so why don't you try the "pass into space" and "counter" TI? What I mean is that you are set up to have a close block that press high, but once they win the ball back there is little asking them to quickly run into the box or play ball behind the defence.

- If you want a pure possession-based style, than you keep the TI as such but then I'd go for a 4141 with AMR/L (433 or 41221). I'd use "shorter passing" rather than "slower tempo" (both of them is an overkill). I'd also turn the WB-A into a WB-S, as in a possession-based system you don't seek crosses from the byline but passing option outwide. On that regard I would also ask both FB to "cross less often".

 

Good luck and excellent choice with St. Pauli, they are one of my fetish team, such a special club!
 

 

Once again thanks for the advice.

I've made some tweaks and has worked well so far in the winter break friendlies. A 0-0 against Werder Bremen was decent result against better opponents, more chances were created. For the final winter friendly against Genk I heeded some of your advice and changed the striker role to DLF(A) and then subbing on and using a PF(A). We were 3-1 winners with the DLF scoring once and PF getting the oher two goals.

Would you keep the metality at balanced in a 4-1-4-1 with AMR/L?

 I want to aim to give myself not only a Plan B, I now want a Plan C as such. Going with my 4-1-4-1 as my main tactic, a 4-1-4-1 (AMR/L) to try to break down stubborn teams, and my tactic from my original post with slight adaptations as shut up shop against teams the odds are stacked against me, or see out a lead late on in a game.

[Pavi]

29 minutes ago, DaggerPaul said:

Would you keep the metality at balanced in a 4-1-4-1 with AMR/L?

 

You can change mentality depending on opponents and within the match. Just take into consideration that mentality influence width, passing style, and tempo...for example if you go a cautious mentality you might want to increase the tempo manually. Also, according to the mentality you might want to change the duty of a couple of players....always check how mentality/duty influences each player mentality (you can see that on the PI screen). On a cautious mentality for exemple you might want at least one CM on Attack....it might not be necessary on Positive, as the Player mentality is influenced by the overall Team Mentality. Hope I managed to explain myself, am at the office pretending to work, so can't access the game right now.

In any case my suggestion was to increase possession, as you need to create triangles and "circles" of players, so that he who has the ball should always have at least two possible passes. This is much easier to achieve in a system were players are at different heigths in the field. But again it depends if you wanna go down the road of possession or if you like what you have but just want some added penetration and speed in attack.

[Piperita]

I played almost the same base formations in the beta with Pauli. Just had the DM position always on support and the left Wingback on attack. Due to personal fetishes I also forced the CBs to be BPDs later on after beginning with one NCB. 

My two *big* differences:

1) I began in a counter-based tactical preset. Pauli has good speed so I began deep and then had my offensive players run forwards. 

2) Depending on my opponent I switched the striker between Targetman (Veerman) and Poacher (Allagui) with Diamantakos being backup for both.

Veerman is big and bulky. He can hold the ball while Mezzala and IWa rush to the box and the wingback looks for crosses. With him I had a lot of options. Staying in the box and making room for shots from distance while being a ridiculously dangerous* man in the air? Or a deeper holding player in almost the entire opposition's half who helps direct the game and helps Buchtmann and Sahin to run into empty spaces? Just don't play the ball low with him, he is a tower!

Meanwhile Allagui had the right mentals to be a precise hitman who excelled in quick counters. For me he scored six goals where he ran absolutely alone and unbothered at the goalkeeper becauae he started just behind the line while the opposition was attacking. His 17 composure are gold! With him I often take one NCB and maybe instruct the DLP to take more risks. 

With Diamantakos you have somewhat of both. Sadly I killed mine by teaching him to beat offside traps. Since then he scores maybe one or two goals more a season but gets caught at least four times per game with the ocassional nine or so sprinkled in which really, really hurts his ratings. However, in this formation he (or my replacement for him, Hrgota, really shine against some opponents as AFa. If they get going, they score three to five times against similar to slightly better opponents but sadly on off days they are prime candidates to go at the half time. 

 

One thing I'd keep in mind: This formation needs alternatives! Due to similarities and available players (and Moeller-Daehli's fitness issues) I practiced a 442 wing play and 4411 fluid counter during my later Second League season and early Bundesliga before slowly phasing out the 4411 (only cup against top teams now) for a 352.

*Sure, he has just nine or so in heading but as a giant tower he reaches so many improbable balls that that barely matters.

[Experienced Defender]

I don't know your players (i.e. their attributes and traits), so I cannot tell you which roles would suit them best. But if you want to play possession football and have some more penetration while using a "defensive" bottom-heavy system like 4141, what you need is deep runners to provide more bodies in the final third once the ball gets there. A role that can be useful here is an IWB on attack, but only if you have a suitable player (otherwise, better don't try it). As for BWM as the sole DM, that's something I tend to avoid because he tends to press too much and can often be drawn out of position. I prefer either anchor man or HB instead, as they are better at protecting the back line, which also allows you to be a bit more adventurous with your fullbacks. But when you give fullbacks more attack-minded roles, always take care to have solid defensive cover for them in the midfield.

Btw, rather than lower (or slightly lower) tempo. I would suggest shorter passing as a better choice for the style you want to implement (i.e. shorter pass, play out of defense and leave tempo on default).

I always like to give an example - not for you to simply copy it, but just as a basic idea to help you better understand what I meant:

PFsu

WPsu   BWMsu     MEZat    IWsu

HB/ACM

      IWBat       CD       CD       FBsu 

PI-wise, your lone striker (PFsu in this case) would be told to roam from position, rather than "hold it". FBsu to sit narrower. BWMsu can be told to hold position, in order to serve as more solid cover for the attacking IWB on the left.

And be careful with your defensive instructions - too aggressive defending can easily backfire. For example, if you play higher DL and LOE (especially when coupled with a higher mentality), you don't need extremely urgent pressing. Even more urgent can be too much. If I wanted to put more pressure on opposition with your system, I'd rather opt for the tighter marking TI than high pressing urgency. Plus DM and all 4 midfielders to mark tighter (PI).

[yourih3]

Because of the lone stricker, it could be very helpful to generate support for the striker. In my 4141 tactic this year I found the mez-s/ap-a combo in the cm position highly effective. Especially the mezzela! 

I don't know if the WP-s will provide the support that would be necessary. I used two WM-A's that I tweaked. Worked brilliant with a player I would normally used as an IW.  

The recommendation of  @Experienced Defender to use an IWB is definitely worth a try.

[Gegenklaus]

53 minutes ago, yourih3 said:

Because of the lone stricker, it could be very helpful to generate support for the striker. In my 4141 tactic this year I found the mez-s/ap-a combo in the cm position highly effective. Especially the mezzela! 

I don't know if the WP-s will provide the support that would be necessary. I used two WM-A's that I tweaked. Worked brilliant with a player I would normally used as an IW.  

The recommendation of  @Experienced Defender to use an IWB is definitely worth a try.

I am interested in seeing your tactic. I’m a big fan of the 4-1-4-1 and always look for inspiration.

[yourih3]

1 minute ago, Gegenklaus said:

I am interested in seeing your tactic. I’m a big fan of the 4-1-4-1 and always look for inspiration.

I will look for it tomorrow morning, but the concept of it I found in a topic couple of weeks ago, about how Man City was lining up under Pep. 

[yourih3]

On 31/12/2018 at 14:28, Gegenklaus said:

Okay guys, I might be on to something here. As it has been said before when it comes to replicating Pep's complicated real life tactics you need to focus on certain aspects and just try to replicate that. For me, what I love most about the way Man City plays is how they position themselves when in posession and attacks mainly through the wide channels and half spaces. So what I wanted to replicate is their attacking shape, the wingplay and the two number 8's as an offensive threat. Wanted to create the two bands of players; 5 attacks, 5 protects circulate the ball. After a full season with Liverpool with a lot of trial and error I ended up with this:

Wow, that looks quite defensive, doesn't it? I don't even use a striker, the formation is deep, but how it plays during the attacking phase is quite fun to watch. There was several reasons I ended up with this. One being that both Sane and Sterling holds width for a long, long time, they get a bit narrow in the final third, getting around the corner edge of the penalty box. In the midfield strata the wingers holds width for much longer and even with an attack duty they track back a lot. But lets start from the top:

Mentality: I ended up using the "Positive" mentality to get some risk taking into the play. I use a really natural defensive formation by nature, so I need my attackers to move high up the field and be aggressive. I used "Balanced" a lot but I found when we were in possession our midfielders and SS were way to deep. I need them to push up and making space. Remember, I did not set out to replicate their cautious build up play, how the back 5 ping pongs the ball around until they can find the free man of the five attackers. I do see it happen though and if I wanted more of that I could maybe lower the tempo a bit but that's what I will be focusing on season 2.

Team instructions: I always like keeping it minimal here but to apply the attacking shape, and considering I am using a deep formation where players starting positions are deep, I need a fair bit of possession to get players up the field and get into our attacking shape. Play out of defence helps with that and also makes the centerback split! It is so cool to watch! The same with shorter passing (and it is a trademark of Pep's teams afterall) helps a bit with our possession. Also I am playing on positive which means players are inclined to be a bit more direct in choosing their passing options, the Shorter Passing TI helps nullify that a bit.

In transitions I ask my Sweeper Keeper to take short kicks and I think it is a lovely TI that makes the keeper play somewhat like Ederson. Sometimes he gives the ball to the centerbacks or he plays it out wide to the wingers or maybe even central to one of the number 8's. It is great to see when the opposition pressure you, you draw them and the keeper bypass the high press with a simple ball into midfield from where I usually have 5 players who goes on to attack. We counter press (helps with the high press) and if we win the ball go attack before the opposition gets back to defend. This TI might mean I lose some possession stats, but I am not interested in extreme numbers of possession. Also Man City do counter incredible fast if the situation is right.

Out of possession I want to emulate the high press from Man City and how they defend. Only thing to note here is that I went to extreme with the line of engagement TI to make my midfield and SS to defend as high up the pitch as possible.

Roles and duties from the bottom:

Sweeper Keeper(S): The first attacker of Pep's teams is the goalkeeper. He is involved during build up play and helps bypass press. Sweeper Keeper on Support does all of this, if you have the player for it. Alisson is that players.

2x Central Defender: Not using any Ball Playing Defenders as I want them both to keep it simple.

FB(s): I fell a bit in love with this role actually. It does a bit of everything, brings support in the wide channel, sometimes tucks in and helps centrally and is conservative enough to not leave the defense exposed. His main job is ball circulation and protect the space that the WM(a) and Mez(s) leaves behind. I could have gone with IWB(s) but I found that he wandered too much into the space that the Mez(s) is operating in.

IWB(d): On support duty he came "too" close to the Mez(a) and if the player has PPM's like "Get forward whenever possible" he sometimes takes up the space that I want the Mez(A) to be in. Defend duty means he will stay back a lot more and sometimes I see him make a 3-chain with the two CD's during build up while the Mez(A) moves high up into space. I am not 100 hundred percent on this yet though.

DM(S). Has hold position. With using 2x mezzalas my midfielders splits really wide so I want my number 6 to move up a bit in midfield central area to offer a link between the sort of two wide bands of attackers and be on the same vertical line as the Shadow Striker. Hold position is for him to not move too far up. And because of Hendersons PPM's he comes deep during build up.

2x WM(A): Okay, so I kept it real simple here. Man City's wingers both make a lot of forward runs. To me, that suggest an attack duty, so I gave them an attack duty. They also stay wide all the way to the final third then make runs into the wide areas of the penalty box. So I give them "Stay Wider" PI. And they also make dribbles, more than usually I think, so I gave them "Dribble more". If there is one thing I am most happy about this tactic it is these two roles. Mane and Salah plays them, sometimes with their strong foot inside or towards the touchline. Despite both not being natural in this position they did really well for me during the season. Salah got 21 goals and 13 assist. Mane 19 goals and 16 assist.

The midfield pair; Mez on support, mez on attack: Guardiola in his sort of 4-3-3 system splits the midfielders quite wide (sometimes they come close to each to help overloading, but forget about that right now). The tactic is all about making space for these two number 8's. Okay, so I wanted one of them to charge into the box and be real high and really aggressive in his decision making, while the other is not so high but helps link defense and attack a bit more while also moving up high when an attack is going on. I've been really happy with this pair and also to see that the match engine can punish you if the opposition gets through your high press - as this is Man City's real life weakness too.

Shadow Striker: Oh my God the trial and error of this position. Tried several striker roles on support - also the PF(d) - and they dont offer themselves enough during build up play. Half into the season I choose to go strikerless and it works somewhat okay. There is a lot of space in the central midfield because of the mezzalas is quite wide, so Bobby Firmino - who plays this role - drops into the space there and helps with the build up - and then charge into the box - running when the cross is being delivered, not standing there - just as Guardiola wants. Main thing with this though - and it is a problem - is that he is sometimes way to deep - also because of his PPM (Comes deep to get ball). Next season I am going to try to make him unlearn that because the Shadow Striker as a role comes deep enough as it is.

Despite this being an experiment the season went really well:

And a screenshot of our attacking shape:

Luis Alberto have come deep to help with the build, 4 attackers have managed to position themselves between the lines and if Luis Alberto manage to find one of them a dangerous attacks can be developed as we then have a 4v4 going. This is taken from the CL-final against Inter, who played in their 4-2-3-1 pressed us quite aggressively so we did have problems getting into our attacking shapes as Inter gave us little time on the ball - but once we broke through we came into good chances and won 4-1.

Well this is quite funny. It turned out that my inspiration was one of your posts 😂. I tweaked the SS to a PF-s, FB to WB, one BPD and the mez-a to an AP-a. And added some player specific PI's. 

Last but not least, thank you for your explanation in the other topic. 

[Gegenklaus]

2 minutes ago, yourih3 said:

Well this is quite funny. It turned out that my inspiration was one of your posts 😂. I tweaked the SS to a PF-s, FB to WB, one BPD and the mez-a to an AP-a. And added some player specific PI's. 

Last but not least, thank you for your explanation in the other topic. 

Haha, that´s funny.

[DaggerPaul]

19 hours ago, Piperita said:

I played almost the same base formations in the beta with Pauli. Just had the DM position always on support and the left Wingback on attack. Due to personal fetishes I also forced the CBs to be BPDs later on after beginning with one NCB. 

My two *big* differences:

1) I began in a counter-based tactical preset. Pauli has good speed so I began deep and then had my offensive players run forwards. 

2) Depending on my opponent I switched the striker between Targetman (Veerman) and Poacher (Allagui) with Diamantakos being backup for both.

Veerman is big and bulky. He can hold the ball while Mezzala and IWa rush to the box and the wingback looks for crosses. With him I had a lot of options. Staying in the box and making room for shots from distance while being a ridiculously dangerous* man in the air? Or a deeper holding player in almost the entire opposition's half who helps direct the game and helps Buchtmann and Sahin to run into empty spaces? Just don't play the ball low with him, he is a tower!

Meanwhile Allagui had the right mentals to be a precise hitman who excelled in quick counters. For me he scored six goals where he ran absolutely alone and unbothered at the goalkeeper becauae he started just behind the line while the opposition was attacking. His 17 composure are gold! With him I often take one NCB and maybe instruct the DLP to take more risks. 

With Diamantakos you have somewhat of both. Sadly I killed mine by teaching him to beat offside traps. Since then he scores maybe one or two goals more a season but gets caught at least four times per game with the ocassional nine or so sprinkled in which really, really hurts his ratings. However, in this formation he (or my replacement for him, Hrgota, really shine against some opponents as AFa. If they get going, they score three to five times against similar to slightly better opponents but sadly on off days they are prime candidates to go at the half time. 

 

One thing I'd keep in mind: This formation needs alternatives! Due to similarities and available players (and Moeller-Daehli's fitness issues) I practiced a 442 wing play and 4411 fluid counter during my later Second League season and early Bundesliga before slowly phasing out the 4411 (only cup against top teams now) for a 352.

*Sure, he has just nine or so in heading but as a giant tower he reaches so many improbable balls that that barely matters.

I've been showing too much loyalty to Diamantakos, but that is an excellent point about Veerman's versatility. I've sent Allagui out on loan so I'll have to rotate between Veerman and Diamantakos.

Would love to get hold of FCSP's latest singing Alexander Meier, big lump, 35 years old so not very mobile, still knows where the goal is. Hopefully will bang in a winner against HSV on Sunday.

[DaggerPaul]

17 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I don't know your players (i.e. their attributes and traits), so I cannot tell you which roles would suit them best. But if you want to play possession football and have some more penetration while using a "defensive" bottom-heavy system like 4141, what you need is deep runners to provide more bodies in the final third once the ball gets there. A role that can be useful here is an IWB on attack, but only if you have a suitable player (otherwise, better don't try it). As for BWM as the sole DM, that's something I tend to avoid because he tends to press too much and can often be drawn out of position. I prefer either anchor man or HB instead, as they are better at protecting the back line, which also allows you to be a bit more adventurous with your fullbacks. But when you give fullbacks more attack-minded roles, always take care to have solid defensive cover for them in the midfield.

Btw, rather than lower (or slightly lower) tempo. I would suggest shorter passing as a better choice for the style you want to implement (i.e. shorter pass, play out of defense and leave tempo on default).

I always like to give an example - not for you to simply copy it, but just as a basic idea to help you better understand what I meant:

PFsu

WPsu   BWMsu     MEZat    IWsu

HB/ACM

      IWBat       CD       CD       FBsu 

PI-wise, your lone striker (PFsu in this case) would be told to roam from position, rather than "hold it". FBsu to sit narrower. BWMsu can be told to hold position, in order to serve as more solid cover for the attacking IWB on the left.

And be careful with your defensive instructions - too aggressive defending can easily backfire. For example, if you play higher DL and LOE (especially when coupled with a higher mentality), you don't need extremely urgent pressing. Even more urgent can be too much. If I wanted to put more pressure on opposition with your system, I'd rather opt for the tighter marking TI than high pressing urgency. Plus DM and all 4 midfielders to mark tighter (PI).

Not sure if this will help.

DR - Full Back - Marc Hornschuh/Luca Zander

DL - WB - Daniel Buballa (WB/S) - Jeremy Dudziak (WB/A)

DC - Phillip Ziereis/Christopher Avevor/Marvin Knoll (BPD)

DLP - Johannes Flum

MCL - BWM(S) - Bernd Nehrig

MCR - Mez - Christopher Buchtmann/Richard Neudecker

MR - Cenk Sahin (IW/A)

ML - Matts Moller Daehli (WP/S)

ST - Diamantakos (PF)/ Henk Veerman (DLF/TM)

[Experienced Defender]

Good. I'll now analyze all these players and tell you what I think.

5 hours ago, DaggerPaul said:

DC - Phillip Ziereis/Christopher Avevor/Marvin Knoll (BPD)

One question: do you use all these 3 guys as BDPs? I have to ask you this, because only Knoll could play as a BPD. The other two guys do not have attributes for the role.

So after a detailed analysis of your players here, this is how I would set up roles and duties based on players' attributes, stronger foot and your formation (4141) and preferred style of play:

PFat

 

WPsu    MEZsu     DLPsu     IWat

ACM

FBat    CDco    CDde      FBsu

SKde

Players and 'player instructions:

GK/SKde - Himmelmann (PI - take fewer risks)

CDL/CDco - Knoll (PI - stay wider)

CDR/CDde - Ziereis or Hornschuh (PI - fewer risky passes)

DL/FBat - Dudziak (no PIs)

DR/FBsu - Zander (PIs - hold position, dribble less)

DM/ACM - Nehrig (PI - mark tighter)

MCL/MEZsu - Buchtmann or Neudecker (PIs - mark tighter, max pressing intensity)

MCR/DLPsu - Flum (PI - mark tighter)

ML/WPsu - Daehli (PI - mark tighter)

MR/IWat - Sahin (PIs - sit narrower, mark tighter)

ST/PFat - Diamantakos or Veerman (PIs - roam from position, dribble less)

Team instructions:

Mentality - Positive (sometimes Balanced)

In possession - shorter passing, play out of defence, float (or mixed) crosses (and optionally be more expressive, but not at all times)

In transition - counter, roll it out, distribute to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - this is more tricky, because you will need to analyze opposition and tweak accordingly, but basically I would start with these TIs: higher DL, higher LOE, use tighter marking, default pressing intensity, standard or wider defensive width

That's what my primary (basic) tactic would be for your preferred starting 11 if I managed your team. I can explain each single tactical decision, but it's easier to do by answering your questions than doing all that in a single post. So if you find anything that maybe confuses you, feel free to ask me (or suggest) whatever you want 

[DaggerPaul]

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Good. I'll now analyze all these players and tell you what I think.

One question: do you use all these 3 guys as BDPs? I have to ask you this, because only Knoll could play as a BPD. The other two guys do not have attributes for the role.

So after a detailed analysis of your players here, this is how I would set up roles and duties based on players' attributes, stronger foot and your formation (4141) and preferred style of play:

PFat

 

WPsu    MEZsu     DLPsu     IWat

ACM

FBat    CDco    CDde      FBsu

SKde

Players and 'player instructions:

GK/SKde - Himmelmann (PI - take fewer risks)

CDL/CDco - Knoll (PI - stay wider)

CDR/CDde - Ziereis or Hornschuh (PI - fewer risky passes)

DL/FBat - Dudziak (no PIs)

DR/FBsu - Zander (PIs - hold position, dribble less)

DM/ACM - Nehrig (PI - mark tighter)

MCL/MEZsu - Buchtmann or Neudecker (PIs - mark tighter, max pressing intensity)

MCR/DLPsu - Flum (PI - mark tighter)

ML/WPsu - Daehli (PI - mark tighter)

MR/IWat - Sahin (PIs - sit narrower, mark tighter)

ST/PFat - Diamantakos or Veerman (PIs - roam from position, dribble less)

Team instructions:

Mentality - Positive (sometimes Balanced)

In possession - shorter passing, play out of defence, float (or mixed) crosses (and optionally be more expressive, but not at all times)

In transition - counter, roll it out, distribute to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - this is more tricky, because you will need to analyze opposition and tweak accordingly, but basically I would start with these TIs: higher DL, higher LOE, use tighter marking, default pressing intensity, standard or wider defensive width

That's what my primary (basic) tactic would be for your preferred starting 11 if I managed your team. I can explain each single tactical decision, but it's easier to do by answering your questions than doing all that in a single post. So if you find anything that maybe confuses you, feel free to ask me (or suggest) whatever you want 

I only use Knoll as BPD and only against teams with a balanced mentallity or higher. As most opposition I come up against is either cautious or defensive I mainly go with 2 DC's as I don't want to just lump it up into packed defences.

 

The overall positions/roles/duties Is pretty similar to what I was running with, the TI/PI's a little different. I have my four man midfield all on max pressing and no Pi's for the FB/WB's. 

With the TI's I can see the reason behind float crosses Veerman is a telegrapgh pole and Diamantakos is decent in the air. I've beeen sticking to low crosses as it doesn't meen all crosses from out wide will be low, if the opportunity to put it in the air is still there the wide players will still do that.

The DL role I prefer using a wing back as I find it provides more width and balls into the box, I haven't experimented much with a FB(A). Apart from defensive stability, what does he bring to the party in attack without PI's? I found using a WB on the left provided width in what is a narrow set up going forward. I've also found the mezzala next to the wide playmaker can see them being next to each other a lot. Will a left footed mezzala work in MC(R), but again he'll be next to the inverted winger a lot. 

 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, DaggerPaul said:

I only use Knoll as BPD and only against teams with a balanced mentallity or higher. As most opposition I come up against is either cautious or defensive I mainly go with 2 DC's as I don't want to just lump it up into packed defences.

Wise 

 

2 hours ago, DaggerPaul said:

I haven't experimented much with a FB(A). Apart from defensive stability, what does he bring to the party in attack without PI's?

Provides an additional passing option out wide during attacking build-ups and in the final third (for the WP and MEZ in the first place), but the one that is less risky defensively than a WB on attack. As for PIs, you can use some PIs if you have a clear idea, but I just though they aren't necessary for him in this setup.

 

2 hours ago, DaggerPaul said:

I've also found the mezzala next to the wide playmaker can see them being next to each other a lot.

But that's actually good for the style of football you want to play (a patient possession-based game), because these two should be close to each other and create actions together. Plus DLP as an additional PM to add even more control and patience to your attacks. I picked these roles based on how you said you want to play and the players you yourself picked as the starting 11.

 

2 hours ago, DaggerPaul said:

Will a left footed mezzala work in MC(R), but again he'll be next to the inverted winger a lot. 

Can work, but then you would again need to tweak some other roles to make the system more balanced. And in that case you can even play DL as a WB on attack, but the RB would then need to be even more defensive:

PFat

WPsu    DLPsu    MEZsu     IWat

ACM

WBat    CDco     CDde      FBde/IWBde

 

[DaggerPaul]

@Experienced Defender with the mezzala would he be more effective with an attack role against team with standard or higher mentality, and better in a support role against park the bus teams.

Due to work I'll give a few adjustments a try tomorrow.

[Experienced Defender]

9 hours ago, DaggerPaul said:

@Experienced Defender with the mezzala would he be more effective with an attack role against team with standard or higher mentality, and better in a support role against park the bus teams

You can go with a MEZ on attack and IW on support, but the reason I opted for support duty for the mezzala is that neither of your two guys has sufficient off the ball. If they had better OTB, I would recommend the MEZ on attack, but they unfortunately don't. But you can try, maybe on the 2nd Bundesliga level it proves sufficient.

[DaggerPaul]

Sorry for the non response over the weekend, been pretty busy.

Anyway, after making a few tweaks and changes I've completed five matches after the German winter break.

For the Darmstadt, Union Berlin and 1.FC Koln fixture I went with the below tactic. It isn't a million miles away from the tactic in post #1.

As you can see from the match result and stats we still had trouble scoring from open play, but the shots on goal stat was better than it has been.

Key players for this tactic are Mats Moller Daehli as the wide playmaker, and Cenk Sahin as the inverted winger. I had to bemoan my luck as both picked up injuries in the Darmstadt game. So more positional tweaks were needed Ryo Miayichi came in on the left, the dilema being do I use him in the same role as Moller Daehli, use him as a winger, or a supporting inverted winger. I decided to play Miyaichi as a wide playmaker with Thibaud Verlinden coming in as an attacking winger on the right. The selection paid off as Miyachi scored two early goals. The mentality was changed from positive to standard to reflect Berlin's more open approach. There was cause for concern that we couldn't hold onto our lead, and the amount of shots on goal by Berlin. This was the first time we had conceded more than one goal in a game all season.

Moller Daehli returned for the game at Koln with Miyaichi swapping to the right wing as an inverted winger. Again we had to have a wits about us defensively with Koln having 14 attempts on target, and two goals disallowed for offside. We were clinical in front of goal with that man Miyaichi bagging his second brace in as many games. Unfortunately Miyaichi would pick up an injury that will keep him out for around a month.

In our next game Aue were to line up with a defensive mentality, so I went with my Plan B.

Thibaud Verlinden came in for Miyaichi as AMR W(A). An impressive performance with the opposition no mustering an attempt on target.

Cenk Sahin returned for the game against Ingolstadt, the unlucky Verlinden dropping to the bench. The visitors would run with a cautious mentality, so I reverted back to my 4-1-4-1 (WP, IW). Sahin bagging the only goal of the game, with the opposition being limited on their chances.

Pleased with how the tactic is working out so far, with a plan B for defensive sides, and a sort of plan C for seeing out games. Over the five game run I've noticed the wide right position with an attacking role is key, five of the nine goals scored came from the MR/AMR position.

Big thanks for help and suggestions by those who have contributed to this thread.