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Conor O'Hare

Numbers of Goals Across The Board Very Low

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I just ran a full detail simulation of the English, French, Italian, Spanish and Dutch Leagues to gauge the number of goals.  I opted to look at this as I felt my own strikers weren't scoring enough.

I will give a more in depth analysis of the EPL as that's the league I know best, and I can compare stats very easily using https://www.premierleague.com/tables

First of all the league Table

image.thumb.png.89647d001f72b876bb97ed5f4f8eb75f.png

Liverpool won the league with 96 goals, that's actually pretty good and no complaints there.  Based on Liverpools goals thus far and with ten games remaining, Liverpool are unlikely to better the Goals For that the Game has simulated that they'll hit.  Arsenal on 82 Points is very high,  again they'll be unlikely to finish higher than this in real life.  3rd and 4th is an issue.  Man City managed 57 goals and Man Utd hit 64.  At this point in the game City have exceeded that goal total with 10 games to go and United are close to that with ten games to go.  Safe to say both United and City will end up with a lot more goals than the game simulated.  

Also compare this top 4 with top 4 of Premier League seasons gone by:

2017/18 Table

Man City (106)

Man Utd (68)

Tottenham (74)

Liverpool (84)

All goals are considerably lower than what is simulated here.  I see that Uniteds goal total in the 18/19 simulation is similar to the goals scored in 17/18, but lets not understate the influence of Mourinho's football!

2016/17 Table

Chelsea (85)

Tottenham (86)

Man City (80)

Liverpool (78)

The goals this season were much less than what we seen last year and should expect to see this year but are higher than what the game simulates.

In review, I'd estimate that overall team goals are slightly too low and need a slight tweaking.  By and large no team should expect to break into top 4 without breaking at least the 65 goal barrier (70 seems to be the best average) or close to it.  City with 57 goals is the biggest proof in my opinion that this is off, as last team to finish in top 4 without breaking at least the 60 goal barrier was Liverpool in 2005/06.  

In looking at the top goal scorers 

image.thumb.png.d13968474989b54c934d1d26eafdb354.png

Not one player breached the 20 goal mark, the last time this happened was in 2008/2009.  Reviewing through the top goal scorers every season, the top scorer has usually broken around 25+ goals  The top scorer in this league with 18 goals has often been enough goals to secure you a top 4/5 finish.  I'm also concerned with the players in these.  Aguero has scored 18 already this season and has only twiced finished a season with less than 20 goals since he came to England.  Harry Kane has also never finished a 30 game season without hitting at least 20 goals and he hits 14 (granted Spurs had a bad season).

I've also looked across the other leagues.  18-22 goals seems to be the average high....Which is no where near accurate.  If SI would like to look at this save, I can upload it and they can review the stats themselves.

Thanks

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Posted (edited)

I opted to run another save to look at this again, maybe my first game was just a dodgy season.  The results were worse!

 Looking at the top 4 spots.  Can you tell me when two teams finished in the top 4 with less than 60 goals in the Premier League.  The closest season with a goals scored column like this was the 2015/2016 which was acknowledged as one of the worst Premier League seasons ever....Man City just about made top 4, United finished 5th thanks to throwing away a 2-1 lead against West Ham with a few games to go (last ever match at Upton Park), Liverpool finished 8th and Chelsea finished 10th, and neither Arsenal or Tottenham managed to mount a serious title challenge to Leicester (not trying to sell Leicester short but this was a poor EPL season with the big clubs struggling). 

image.thumb.png.2c5bff81bd0fed123595d7be45e4d442.png

The other seasons have featured much higher scoring leagues, with the lowest goals scored out of the top 4 teams being equal or greater than the highest scored in the 2015/16 freak season, I believe 2005 was the last time a team managed to finish top 4 with less than 60 goals.  

The top scorers in the League in this save is even more damning:

image.thumb.png.2ba8acbedef42b8bef7bde746899a20e.png

Top goal scorer with 16 goals in the Premier League is such an obvious issue I'm not even going to comment on it, what I will comment on is on an individual player

image.thumb.png.1eec95bf5c50134890eab6b196eb3162.png

One of the deadliest strikers in the Premier League manages 4 goals?  

I'm going to run a 3rd save, and if SI would like each save, I'll gladly provide them.  I've seen SI defend their stats in comparison to injuries, woodwork, crosses completed, goals from crosses etc....How can they defend this.  I would be genuinely interested in SI's take on this.

Edited by Conor O'Hare

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Posted (edited)

This is disappointing because I reported a lack of goals in the beta (as did others). I really hoped this was going to be sorted more (although it does seem slightly improved and the problem seems to be more to do with the top teams and too much of a 'spread'. The mid-table clubs seem to be scoring too many on the face of it tbh.)

 

My test FYI: 

 

 

Screenshot (382).png

Edited by Had_Enough

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11 hours ago, Had_Enough said:

This is disappointing because I reported a lack of goals in the beta (as did others). I really hoped this was going to be sorted more (although it does seem slightly improved and the problem seems to be more to do with the top teams and too much of a 'spread'. The mid-table clubs seem to be scoring too many on the face of it tbh.)

 

My test FYI: 

 

 

Screenshot (382).png

Thats even worse than mine by the looks of things.  I'm going to run 3 more saves and report back on this.  I believe 5 tests should be enough to provide some conclusive results, as I know people tend to think these things are just exceptions to the norm.

 

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Posted (edited)

I noticed the same thing. Top strikers are just not scoring no matter how much supply you give them. I once had Aguerro go 5 goals in 20 games. Heck I couldn't even get Messi to score more than 15 goals in a season. It's ridiculous and the winter update does not seem to have fixed it

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

I noticed the same thing. Top strikers are just not scoring no matter how much supply you give them. I once had Aguerro go 5 goals in 20 games. Heck I couldn't even get Messi to score more than 15 goals in a season. It's ridiculous and the winter update does not seem to have fixed it

IMO from observation most of what's been stated in this thread can be explained by the combination of the following issues:

1. High-reputation teams face a disproportionate amount of opponents that display zero intention of playing football. 11 men in the immediate vicinity of the box, both fullbacks on defend, never committing more than 2-3 players to counters. This has been an issue at least since FM18. AI managers approach the game like you still get 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw. They need to start valuing the win more.

2. Central play against parked busses is completely ****ed so attacks inevitably turn into either a long shot or a cross most of the time. Teams set up to retain the ball and recirculate it have 10+ shots from distance and 50+ crosses per game regardless. The sort of pass-and-move stuff that lets City, Barca, etc break down parked busses IRL just isn't happening with anything resembling regularity.

Mid-table teams on the other hand don't face jam-packed boxes every match in an ME that makes it utterly onerous to score against that kind of setup.

Edited by Sampsiceramos

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Posted (edited)

@Sampsiceramos So I take it central play still has not been fixed after winter update ? I'm not surprised honestly. But I'm very disappointed. I'm even considering going to earlier version like fm 2017 to actually see some nice goals and get some enjoyment from seeing my strikers score

Edited by crusadertsar

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1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

@Sampsiceramos So I take it central play still has not been fixed after winter update ? I'm not surprised honestly. But I'm very disappointed. I'm even considering going to earlier version like fm 2017 to actually see some nice goals and get some enjoyment from seeing my strikers score

In my opinion, no - at least not for top sides facing opposition that isn't on more or less the same level of reputation.

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If anybody's interested how much the too defensive AI issue influences scoring, you can alter all managers in that league "sitting back" attribute to 1. It would be interesting to see how results (goals scored) differ. 

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TBH, I've been running more tests on this.  I'm currenty running a holiday save and so far simulated 3 full seasons, the issue seems to be strikers not being involved in games enough.

image.thumb.png.775815f74118ea509aa1a9c4e826cc7b.png

 

It continues my trend of strikers struggling to hit more than 20 goals a season when the top scorer should be around 25-30 for 3 full seasons.  But my new thought is that strikers aren't involved in games at all as shown by their assists.  In each season, the top goal scorers only manage around 2 assists.  Now looking at the top scorers of the last 3 Premier League seasons.

2017/18 - Mo Salah was top scorer and managed 10 assists.

2016/17 - Harry Kane, top scorer and managed 7 assists, now Kane is more of a poacher than a creator but even with his mentality he still gets assists and is involved in games in a way the FM19 Engine doesn't seem to replicate.  I also looked at second top scorer in this occasion as I know Lukaku is a creative striker for his team mates and he managed 6 assists also.

2015/16 -  Harry Kane, top scorer and managed one assist.  This stat favours the game's method.  

I also look at this years season in progress.  Aguero is currently top scorer with ten games to go and has already managed 6 assists...So his goals and assists for this season is likely to be above what this game can replicate.

So critically comparing a few seasons, the ME is not replicating a style of football we see IRL.  Strikers just don't seem to be involved as much as they are IRL or in previous versions. 

I loaded up FM18 to look at similar stats.   Higher scoring goals, strikers getting involved and assisting team mates.  A more realistic approach to football.

image.thumb.png.b1af395b29f0fba5b58cce4522cb7355.png

 

I'd really appreciate to know what SI's position is on this, did these types of trends come up for them or in the private beta or is my game just creating regularly anomalies that doesn't correspond to the data other games is outputting....For me having strikers that are useless and offer very little product doesn't strike me as very entertaining or rewarding game.  

I'm not going to attack the developers are bash the game as I love the game but I don't see me playing this game this year with the state it's in and the only person that is losing out here is me, and thats frustrating as it'll be a long wait until October for FM20 which I always end up buying despite the fact I don't start playing properly until March when the final DB is ready....

Kudos SI for developing my heroin.....A game that frustrates me and annoys me yet I can't wait for my next hit all the same.

image.png

image.png

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First of all, I appreciate all your hard work in testing and I know I have said it repeatedly, but I feel I must say it again: there is a complete lack of central play in this edition of FM. It doesn't really matter if you ask your players to Exploit the Middle combined with Work Ball Into Box because all it's gonna happen, is the ball being pass out wide and then the natural cross comes into the box. The strikers severly lack in Off the Ball Movement and they get marked out of the game by an unnaturally narrow defense (which encourages wide play even more). So in all honestly, you can't really expect the strikers to score as many goals as in previous editions. Here's food for thought: go in a game with a 4-4-2 diamond or a 4-3-1-2 and try to exploit the middle. Then, look at what your AMC is doing 95% of the time when he has the ball. He will 95% of the time pass it wide to your unmarked full-back, even though there might be options for a vertical play. This makes the game utterly boring to me and totally unrealistic since it does not respect my core instructions to the team ( exploit the middle) and the core component of the formation itself (4-4-2 diamond or 4-3-1-2) which is VERTICALITY !!!

I understand that you are frustrated to the point you don't really care anymore and just hope that FM20 will be somehow better. Trust me, I can relate to that. Me, I just play FM17 because I find it slighlty better than FM18 and 100 times better than FM19 when it comes to the Match Engine. I feel that for the past 2 editions (18 and 19) we got more features in the game, which one can argue we didn't necessarly need (cluttering the game too much) but we got a worse Match Engine every year. Last time when SI created 2 great games in 2 consecutive years was FM13 and FM14 (and no, nostalgia has nothing to do with it).

 

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Posted (edited)

Sorry, if I'd have spotted this topic sooner I could have made more of a contribution, have been running some 'brute force' tests which I could've contributed here as a by-product! I'll happily throw some screens up as I go, but I don't want to get too distracted from my main focus so won't spend a lot of time analysing, just hopefully they'll lend support/provide evidence & help prove (or perhaps disprove) the matter being discussed here.

One main correlation I've noticed so far is that the better the human team does, the better at least one of the chasing pack does in terms of both points and goals - suggests some form of (admittedly very loose) rubber banding, but I hate throwing suggestions (or some would say accusations) like that around...

Will keep adding screens to this post (until I hit the size limit!), by all means shout 'stop' if you've had enough/don't find it useful, can always edit them back out!

Test 1;

image.thumb.png.2e41340a54d9056c33958cdc2d83fd97.png

image.thumb.png.2d4d6cdc21e38a963b5121a0d7f66b6f.png

 

Test 2;

image.thumb.png.acb93a9185b2a41138f3a4e2d5e74506.png

image.thumb.png.f972c60d01640e34413a6c2cc546aa22.png

 

Test 3;

image.thumb.png.829ab1e17bc8c531b36bc4687225fd89.png

image.thumb.png.a8cb32f18c184cbe7ecb83e292381d3e.png

 

Test 4:

image.thumb.png.c7fb9089675936e27f0d839cbd028103.png

image.thumb.png.9f6d3cdf2fd9b904e20b4d8613d20d55.png

 

Test 5;

image.thumb.png.4ee9e07dbbcab35e9c5933b835feea42.png

image.thumb.png.3559f7270cedcfae4c6685e38e1c9daf.png

 

Test 6;

image.thumb.png.cfb07edaa53c296ac731acfdbea2bd8b.png

image.thumb.png.caf5123a409b6fbe85661badd6474159.png

 

Test 7

image.thumb.png.7121f9bb0b289be99c1135ae92a2eecb.png

image.thumb.png.751577e41ff3cb682ade245926942e59.png

 

Test 8:

image.thumb.png.44f625af5f04f055e00ddd2ec63c7d6b.png

image.thumb.png.dca347da6e112da2af3df4200fd20172.png

 

Test 9 (note I'm using Liverpool in this test hence why Salah found his shooting boots - first time I've seen an AI player break 30 league goals in 19.3);

image.thumb.png.88d08d41374f3a6e3060419c67b4ff07.png

image.thumb.png.233c02e1a242e153b9e25dfa3ed0de96.png

 

Test 10 (will make this the last set I post for now - let me know if you'd like me to submit more)

image.thumb.png.f598cbb8eaf01cfc35c2c0476c521cbc.png

image.thumb.png.ee4cf14bc40300ed341d638bf8401459.png

Edited by optimusprimal82
Adding more test results!

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4 hours ago, SebastianRO said:

First of all, I appreciate all your hard work in testing and I know I have said it repeatedly, but I feel I must say it again: there is a complete lack of central play in this edition of FM. It doesn't really matter if you ask your players to Exploit the Middle combined with Work Ball Into Box because all it's gonna happen, is the ball being pass out wide and then the natural cross comes into the box. The strikers severly lack in Off the Ball Movement and they get marked out of the game by an unnaturally narrow defense (which encourages wide play even more). So in all honestly, you can't really expect the strikers to score as many goals as in previous editions. Here's food for thought: go in a game with a 4-4-2 diamond or a 4-3-1-2 and try to exploit the middle. Then, look at what your AMC is doing 95% of the time when he has the ball. He will 95% of the time pass it wide to your unmarked full-back, even though there might be options for a vertical play. This makes the game utterly boring to me and totally unrealistic since it does not respect my core instructions to the team ( exploit the middle) and the core component of the formation itself (4-4-2 diamond or 4-3-1-2) which is VERTICALITY !!!

I understand that you are frustrated to the point you don't really care anymore and just hope that FM20 will be somehow better. Trust me, I can relate to that. Me, I just play FM17 because I find it slighlty better than FM18 and 100 times better than FM19 when it comes to the Match Engine. I feel that for the past 2 editions (18 and 19) we got more features in the game, which one can argue we didn't necessarly need (cluttering the game too much) but we got a worse Match Engine every year. Last time when SI created 2 great games in 2 consecutive years was FM13 and FM14 (and no, nostalgia has nothing to do with it).

 

Interesting you say this because I play a 4-4-2 narrow diamond and I too notice a huge amount of my goals come from my fullbacks (with wingback roles) providing most of the assists via crossed. i do not instruct the team to "play through the middle" though because this has been so successful I allow them to do it. I figure if I'm stronger in the middle they'll play that way, if the strength in the middle causes the opposition defense to sit narrowly then I'll allow my team to pass it out wide to exploit this. I wonder how much of it is unrealism that should be fixed and I'm just taking credit for a confused match engine haha

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Posted (edited)

For what it's worth, I was very surprised that in my first top flight season my newly-promoted Bari managed to not only claim top goalscorer with 19 goals from a 19 year old who only made 29 appearances all year (look at how low the Serie A totals have been in game years vs real years overall!), but we also were the top scoring team with 73, finishing in 4th. The champions only had 64, and the 2nd club finished with a mere 52! Only two clubs breached 70, with 70 and 71, respectively. Small sample size, I know, but in real life last season Serie A had clubs on 77, 86, and 89 goals, and in 2016-17 there were clubs on 71, 72, 74, 77, 90, and 94. Then again, in 2014-15 Juve did win the league as top scorers with only 72.

 

image.png

image.png

Edited by Weston

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23 minutes ago, Weston said:

Interesting you say this because I play a 4-4-2 narrow diamond and I too notice a huge amount of my goals come from my fullbacks (with wingback roles) providing most of the assists via crossed. i do not instruct the team to "play through the middle" though because this has been so successful I allow them to do it. I figure if I'm stronger in the middle they'll play that way, if the strength in the middle causes the opposition defense to sit narrowly then I'll allow my team to pass it out wide to exploit this. I wonder how much of it is unrealism that should be fixed and I'm just taking credit for a confused match engine haha

Tbh it makes perfect sense to me. Overloading the middle - the space is going to be out wide. Your players are being wise utilising it.

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20 minutes ago, Had_Enough said:

Tbh it makes perfect sense to me. Overloading the middle - the space is going to be out wide. Your players are being wise utilising it.

No I agree, but I know there have been mentions of full/wingbacks being overpowered in FM for a few years now and @SebastianRO seems to be struggling wth altering this trend.

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@Had_Enough@Weston

I get the part of utilising space, of course I do. What I don't understand is why that becomes the overwhelming way-to-go. I am atalking about situations when my AMC has the ball and one or both of my strikers makes a run into an open channel, but still the AMC chooses a wide lateral pass instead of a through ball. This is what I am having a problem with.

It doesn't matter what formations I used because the trend is the same: pass it wide. I have tried 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 but the problem is still there. I have played a game (for 70 minutes in the match) and after the scenario I am about to describe, I've rage quitted the game, so I can't provide you with any evidence:

So, I was playing 4-4-2 diamond and I have just recovered after an opposition attack. All my players were instructed to pass it short-explot the middle (among other instructions). So, the ball gets to one of my CM's who has the role of an CM-S. In front of him there are 4 of my players getting ready to make something happen: 1 striker who was trying to beat the offside trap on the right side of the pitch, the other striker who was moving into the left channel, the AMC who was roaming behind the strikers as a Trequartista and the other CM's who was bombong forward as a BBM. He could have easily passed the ball to any of these players because none of them were marked (this was half of a counter-attacking situation), but guess what my CM is doing: he passes the ball to my Right Full Back who was still in my own half (close to the half-way line) but he was heavily marked by the opposition's winger. I was furious. How can that be a logical thing to do ? How on earth can somebody defend and explain this with a straight face ?!

TLDR - My CM had 4 amazing options to pass the ball and should he succed, there would have been a massive chance of me getting a goal chance. Instead, he chooses to pass it to a marked player WIDE (who was still in my own half), an area that doesn't really put the opponent at risk and completly destroys any chance of me carrying the counter-attack and of course, the full-back lose the ball because he was heavily marked by the opposition Winger. This happened in the 70th minute and immediatly I've quit the game and didn't bother with it any-more.

I refuse to play lateral no matter what my formations and tactics are. I believe in verticality and I think that no matter how much football tactics evolve or regress, there will always be possible to play vertical in the real world as long sa you have it done right. What is going on in FM for years now, is SI trying to "better the defences" and the way they choose to do it is not a very good one tbh: teams are defending extremly narrow no matter who they face, strikers have virtually no off-the ball movement and even if they do, they rarely are the 1st option of a pass (through ball) because apparently the Full Backs or Wingers have priority since they move into 5000 of achres of free space down the flanks (space which exists because everyone defends way way too narrow). It is a very intricate problem that it's not easy to fix, I get that, but I don't really understand why could they let this happen in the first place ? I pre-order every single edition and it's just a loterry and wishfull thinking that maybe, just maybe I will get a ME engine that will allow the most basics of tactics to work as they are intended. Instead, I get ME's where I choose to exploit the middle, and yet all my sterile penetration comes from the flanks. ME's where my absolutly amazing no10 (Trequartista) cant make a simple vertical pass and gives it out wide. A ME that produces most of it's goals from crosses or rebound from crosses 80% of the time. Again, I am ranting because I keep spending money and I will spend more I am sure without getting this bloody game into a playable state.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, SebastianRO said:

What is going on in FM for years now, is SI trying to "better the defences" and the way they choose to do it is not a very good one tbh: teams are defending extremly narrow no matter who they face, strikers have virtually no off-the ball movement and even if they do, they rarely are the 1st option of a pass (through ball) because apparently the Full Backs or Wingers have priority since they move into 5000 of achres of free space down the flanks (space which exists because everyone defends way way too narrow). It is a very intricate problem that it's not easy to fix, I get that, but I don't really understand why could they let this happen in the first place ? 

Situation with narrow defending and too defensive AI can be improved with changing managers attributes in editor. Many have extremly high numbers there. Sitting back attribute of 15 means teams will use too defensive tactics a lot (instead of their normal) especially away from home and against top teams. The same is with defensive width attribute. Changing these attributes might improve gaming experience and help better teams score more.

Edited by Mitja

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I also feel like playing narrow is being phased out almost completely. I very, very rarely ever play another side that has a narrow formation, I feel like the only manager left in the world who does. When I left Bari for Milan I had left the club in a strong 3rd place finish with a fantastic setup with the 4-4-2 narrow diamond. Depth in every position, and no wide players. The first thing the new manager does? Clumsily overhaul the whole squad to play a wide formation. Why?? I mean, I get that that happens in real life sometimes, but it just seems like there were no managers in the game world who could've come in and continued playing narrowly.

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@Neil Brock @Jack Joyce

Interested in seeing a response from SI on matters raised on discussion.

Personally I don't think it's anything to do with teams defending too narrow etc, this is part of the problem...But the biggest problem is static strikers who don't make any movement to drag teams out of shape.  If there was more attacking off the ball movement, I believe we'd see Strikers involved more with higher goals/assists and then higher goals being scored across the leagues.

I doubt it's going to be fixed but would be great to hear an official word from SI on if it's done for this year.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, SebastianRO said:

.....

I'm not the best person to talk because I've spent my time skinning and editing the database predominantly so far. I've also read too many of these kind of threads which has put me off a lot this year so I've delayed playing, more than necessary tbh (still slowly editing currently). I've ran some test saves and I can see for myself the issue with a lack of goals in the beta (post 2 or 3 here). I'm not sure I completely agree with this thread anymore though. Number of goals seems ok, it's just the bigger clubs which aren't scoring enough and arguably the mid-table teams are over-compensating for this. Someone made a good comment about the over-defensive nature of the opposition for bigger clubs - that would be a good explanation.

The other nuances I'm not so aware of so I'm not in a great position to talk in detail about the ME this year but that won't stop me :lol:

I will say just a couple of things your post has encouraged me to say but it's more general than anything else. It may or may not be helpful to anyone. I'm not making excuses or being apologetic for FM in its current state as frankly a lot of people here have more experience than me atm.

 

Your pass wide

You describe a very specific poor decision, is this happening frequently? If yes I can understand the frustration and maybe you have a point. Shame you rage quit as the pkm might have been a good one to upload. Is it just once? If it's a certain player repeating this trend, is there anything in his attributes which might explain it? Poor vision (maybe a bad example if the passes are obvious)? Poor decisions? Is it multiple players? What are their attributes like? -

Just one simple pass and look at all the questions it raises just in my head on attributes alone. Yet people here criticise countless actions in countless games and I'm expected to believe they understand everything that has gone on in all those instances and furthermore the ME is often always the cause? Maybe some of you do but there's an awful lot of these examples.

It's why I struggle with the criticisms to some extent here as people (in general, not you, I'm speaking in very broad terms here throughout) like to whinge and to be perfectly honest I have no idea what's a legitimate issue anymore as there's no evidence they've thought it through half as much as even I have and I've only spent about minute without any analysis tools.

Law of averages and the consistency of some of the problems probably suggests a lot of valid points but most of the time so much info. is missing. Maybe they've provided plenty in the past.... Maybe they're just frustrated... Maybe there's been a lack of communication/feedback from SI especially when they've uploaded stuff... I guess I just want people to keep an open mind and the go to response not to be blame everyone else first and look inward - if they do that then I can get on board with their criticisms a lot easier.

 

Tactics

Lastly, I also struggle to get my head around these 'narrow ideals' these threads keep getting saturated by. Maybe it's a tactical deficiency of mine and my lack of understanding of tactics. However as I understand the game in a basic sense, it's all about making and taking advantage of space. Take diamond shapes; the space is out wide. These narrow formations are usually (opponent permitting) actually suited to engineering and taking advantage of this space much better than anywhere else on the pitch (IMO that is why they are one-dimensional formations). Not only is the ball a magnet to opposition players so too are your own players. Add FM factors like play-makers exacerbating this and you've got packed central areas. You're going to need good roles and duties to make space centrally but even then I'd still want the ball to be switched to the flanks... regularly personally.

Successful teams IRL play with width, stretch the game and use the entirety of the pitch. Yet on here people seem obsessed with playing vertically only. Maybe width is taken for granted and they just don't mention it. 

Don't get me wrong all these posts about vertical play lead me to believe there must be some issue with the ME in this respect due to the sheer volume of complaints. Specifically the AM involvement if I'm reading between the lines right and over-simplifying it. But I just can't help but question the perceived frequency of the effectiveness of this type of play IRL. Again I'm not sure the expectations are actually right and that's it's as effective as people say. I nearly went through all the Premiership games on Saturday but figured it would bore everybody to death - but in short, not a lot of 'through ball goals'. Quite a lot of set piece goals.

On the face of it, it's appears that a lot of people just want to play within in the width of the 18 yard box and I'm glad that the pixels are showing more intelligence by stretching the play as no team is going to be successful playing in such a way. 

 

I only really quoted you because I nicked two examples to explain and elaborate on a much wider point that I alluded to before very briefly. This is where I was coming from, actually in response to @Weston although he seemed to appreciate the need for width wasn't 'accidental'.

I just really struggle in this area of the forum. Maybe I need to use this ME more but nonetheless I'm amazed by the authority in which people can criticise when I'm not even convinced their starting 'football ideals' are necessary correct. 

Edited by Had_Enough

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@Had_Enough

I read your post and I can see where you are coming from. The reasons for why you dont see many teams do theough balls in the Championship or Premiership is because English football was and is different in this regard. English teams use to play wide, but italian sides prefer to go through the middle, historically speaking and even to this day. The second reason for why you dont see this style as much IRL is because in order to make it work, you need literally the perfect players for the job led by a superb no.10 in the AMC role. 

 

People seem to be obsessed with this thing because since 2016 SI killed this style of play and most people get bored to see the same goal scored over and over again in the most underwhelming fashion: useless passes left and right until there is an opening for a decent cross which may result in a goal. I think this is $tupid and SI should take this on board. 

The way I view and understand football is this: if you have a tactic in mind and you implement it correctly using the right players, it should work. I said “work” not “win games”. What ai mean by this is that I should still be able to see my players attempting to play like I ask them. In FM19 this doesnt happen because the ME is just poor. 

The main idea is that no matter what the football trends are IRL, you should be able to implement ANY style as long as you know what you are doing and have the right players. Remember when the italians revived the 3 at the back tactics about 5 years ago ? Did it worked ? Of course it did because they knew what they were doing and had the right players for it. This is why i dont think that “just because you dont see it IRL very often, it shouldn’t work”. This is not an argument because thats what football is all about: invention, reinvention, evolution. 

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Posted (edited)

As of the AI Editor Experiment ; if you'd really want to trick the AI into not much using unrealistically stubborn defensive tactics (half a Team plus behind the ball for 90 minutes straight), you'd typically also needed to edit the team's reps in the league. In other words, leveling them. That way the AI (at the start / first Season anyway) gauges Burnley vs Man City was a match-up on roughly equal Terms. And yeah, the number of Goals can be influenced by Edits a load, also on previous Editions. YOu could actually make it so that there are much more Goals scored than in real Football -- and the "dominating" Teams consistently scoring 100+ Goals.

As of the number of Goals in General -- this also goes for Forwards in Isolation: purely stats-wise, they don't tell all that much. Back on FM17ish the big AI Teams didn't even dominate the shot tables as they do in real Football. Including Celtic, who IRL average up to 8 shots on target per game (whilst the league average is half of that). Still got a screenshot saved.

K7kvTND.jpg

Now whilst SI naturally also tweak the match Play individually -- with Underlying numbers like that, the ME would be a Fantasy if These Teams consistently scored as much as in real Football. The same goes for the strike rate often with Forwards. The AI frequently doesn't even use Messi in a way that the ever has his 5+ attempts per match average (from within the box) that he has in RL. We had threads of showing the AI how to make "Messi" Messiish in the past. HOwever, as of FM anyway, that doesn't happen just by fielding the Players in a somewhat "coherent" tactic (which the AI is at least somewhat... decent at). The AI would Need to think About making a Forward the focal Point of attacks -- which it traditionally at least couldn't at all.

Edited by Svenc

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1 hour ago, Svenc said:

As of the AI Editor Experiment ; if you'd really want to trick the AI into not much using unrealistically stubborn defensive tactics (half a Team plus behind the ball for 90 minutes straight), you'd typically also needed to edit the team's reps in the league. In other words, leveling them

Not really sure if that would be necessary. Sitting back stat affects how quickly manager will change to defensive tactics. 

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I am playing in Denmark, so had no influence on these results.

Sweden

In 2018 there was an average 2,74 goals scored pr. match.

In 52% of all matches more than 2,5 goals are scored.

5/16 teams averaged 1 goal or less scored pr. match.

7/16 teams averaged more than 1,5 goals scored pr. match.

Iceland

In 2018 there was an average of 2,95 goals scored pr. match.

In 56% of all matches more than 2,5 goals are scored.

2/12 teams averaged 1 goal or less scored pr. match.

6/12 teams averaged more than 1,5 goals scored pr. match.

 

In FM the story is different.

 

Sweden

In the simulated 2018 league there was an average of 2,02 goals scored pr. match.

In 33,75% of all matches more than 2,5 goals are scored.

 9/16 teams averaged 1 goal or less scored pr. match.

 0/16 teams averaged more than 1,5 goals scored pr. match.

Iceland

In the simulated 2018 league there was an average of 2,21 goals scored pr. match.

In 38% of all matches more than 2,5 goals are scored.

5/12 teams averaged 1 goal or less scored pr. match.

2/12 teams averaged more than 1,5 goals scored pr. match.

 

I know this is only one simulation, but I could do it over and over, and the results would be somewhat the same. Those numbers suggest a huge drop compared to real life.

 

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Hey guys,

Thank you for all of your feedback, 

We will investigate this further using the data you have all provided and do our best to implement changes in order to balance things out as much as we can,

Cheers,

Hugo

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