Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '09

[Marinho]

@ alanricouk

I guess it depends on your formation and the skills of your players and the opposing wingers. Maybe close down hard if the problem is that they run past you using dribbling skills, sit back more (no tight marking, no closing down, maybe defensive line a bit deeper) if he´s getting the ball behind your line due to his pace.

Also keep an eye on how their touches are initiated, if they have a great playmaker passing it down the flanks one might try to take him out rather than concentrate on the receiver.

What i miss is the option to double team, while that is more a term from Basketball it´s still a common tactic against wing players in particular, one man staying in front and the other guarding the path to the middle.

[yonko]

Wow! Great stuff! Very much related to the real game not just FM (WWSM for me in the USA).

I'm pretty much a fan of 433 (with AM-RL+FC ala Barca/Chelsea) or 4231 Benitez style. And as such I'm a little confused about how to adapt the mentality frameworks linked to Mourinho, Cappello, Wenger, etc. The examples used are for standard 442. So how these frameworks work for the above said formations.

I've also thought about giving specific roles for each position. For example: giving my AMR (let's say Messi or Arshavin) the Advanced Playmaker role individual instructions, my AML(Henry, Eto'o, Arshavin) in the Poacher role, the FC (Eto'o, Gudjohnsen) is with Target Man role instruction, MCL (Iniesta) is Box-to-Box, MCR (Xavi) is Deep Playmaker and the DMC (Yaya Toure) is my destroyer (my very own created role - everything on rarely with TTB on mixed). Would that work? WWFan, Justified and other tactics gurus have you tested something of that nature? Of course we talk about top teams, as I mostly play FM/WWSM with the higher level teams.

Is there a difference in the ME between the Demo and the patched full game?

Great effort into putting this huge guide!

[stonini90]

Incredible

[Cin-cout]

absolutely brilliant piece of work, thank you wwfan, Millie and the rest of the contributers.

[pistol111]

Great work lads! Have been studying this last night and this morning for quite a few hours and am about to put your suggestions into use. This really has helped me get a better understaing of the tactical side of the game, especially around the mentality sliders.

[Husty]

Awesome work.

Some reading for tonight.

Thanks SI.

[Justified]

Wow! Great stuff! Very much related to the real game not just FM (WWSM for me in the USA).

I'm pretty much a fan of 433 (with AM-RL+FC ala Barca/Chelsea) or 4231 Benitez style. And as such I'm a little confused about how to adapt the mentality frameworks linked to Mourinho, Cappello, Wenger, etc. The examples used are for standard 442. So how these frameworks work for the above said formations.

I've also thought about giving specific roles for each position. For example: giving my AMR (let's say Messi or Arshavin) the Advanced Playmaker role individual instructions, my AML(Henry, Eto'o, Arshavin) in the Poacher role, the FC (Eto'o, Gudjohnsen) is with Target Man role instruction, MCL (Iniesta) is Box-to-Box, MCR (Xavi) is Deep Playmaker and the DMC (Yaya Toure) is my destroyer (my very own created role - everything on rarely with TTB on mixed). Would that work? WWFan, Justified and other tactics gurus have you tested something of that nature? Of course we talk about top teams, as I mostly play FM/WWSM with the higher level teams.

Is there a difference in the ME between the Demo and the patched full game?

Great effort into putting this huge guide!

So let me see if I've understood you correctly -

DMC - Defend

MCR - Support

MCL - Support

AMR - Support

AML - Attack

FC - Support

With so many supporting roles you're most likely going to have to get the best out of your fullbacks to get forward and attack, especially your DL seeing as you want your AML in the box. I'd say you could try with this attacking framework -

GK - 15 (Support)

DC - 14 (Defend)

DR/DL - 16 (Attack)

DMC - 16 (Defend)

MCR - 18 (Support)

MCL - 20 (Support)

AML/R - 18 (Attack/Support)

FC - 15 (Support)

Push up your D-Line as this utilizes a sweeper keeper so you can put as much pressure on the opponents as possible and play the game in their half (So called Domination). Obviously the pitch at Camp Nou is quite big so keep play quite wide (17) but watch out for opposition strikers to make sure they're not getting too much space. I know that the box to box is meant to have "Attack" role but due to him being box to box you migth have to adapt him to a support role but with high mentality to actually get him into the box. If not working well just put FWRD Runs Often.

Seeing as you're Barca I would say you're going to have to create a Control tactic as well because you'll come up against teams parking the bus at Camp Nou quite often. Slower tempo, wider play and lower D-line to lure the opposition out.

Let me know how it goes

[Todor032]

That's a masterpiece, wwfan, you got me back playing Football Manager! Thank you!

[Parkes53]

wow, nice work

[Hammer1000]

Justified - Appreciate what you are saying mate, but my problem is not just a West Ham issue.

In fact, i was probably creating more GOOD chances, playing as the Hammers than i have in my three seperate games with Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd. This i imagine is down to the fact that teams play more aggressively against me when i am West Ham, as opposed to very defensive when playing as one of the three big clubs.

The football my team (be it WHU or MU) is playing at the back and in midfield is fine, its when we hit the final third that we begin to have problems.

This is what i'm trying to achieve?

1. Stopping my players shooting on sight

2. Getting my players to try through balls

and maybe?

3. Getting my players to run closer to goal with the ball if/when they do get behind the last defender?

If you see what i mean, its not just a good team/bad team problem, its more a game problem, with like i say, even the likes of Fabregas and Co unable to open up even the poorest defence with a decent through ball?

Was hoping somebody could help me out with this?

Thanks

[matthewgoodfield]

How do you make the winger come inside

[onthetrain]

Guys,

As a forty something latecomer to FM (I only caught the bug with FM2008) I found it a bit of a slog getting into the game. Frustration with putting my own tweaks on the standard tactics (thereby getting roundly thrashed consistently) lead to me using tactics created by others to try to understand the game better. I became somewhat dissillusioned when using things like Kimz tactics which lead to me often going through a whole season undefeated and winning every competition I entered. With my Rangers team working on one of the tweaked britsh league DB's I won the league 12 years in a row and CL 11 in a row. It was fun for a while and then I realised I could put the game into holiday mode and still win just about everything.

Now that I have a basic understanding of how the game works I will use these threads as a way of building tactics around my own players strengths and weaknesses. I will also avoid things like genie scout which also make things far too easy. I also fell into the trap of using scout to ID good youngsters and develop them at no cost, often selling them later at huge profit. Improvements in the scouting and transfer system in FM09 will hopefully make this unnecessary.

I am totally in awe of how much effort you guys have put into the development of TT&F. I will look at my team, work out its strengths and use one of your formation tactics to buld my own system. I have no doubt that your efforts will lead to a huge increase in enjoyment of the game for myself and others.

Many many thanks and much kudos for your time and effort on behalf of us all.

regards

Alan

[UnlikelyStory]

Great thread guys but a quick stupid question. With the sliders, does it only go up to 18? And the middle is 9 and the far left side is 0? I'm a little confused hehe.

[lim]

Read this part -

thanks for the reply justified, but what i dont understand is the defensive standard and attacking parts, im just using the mentality set that was given by wwfan, would that be the standard?

[rougess]

amazing

[Justified]

thanks for the reply justified, but what i dont understand is the defensive standard and attacking parts, im just using the mentality set that was given by wwfan, would that be the standard?

The one mentioned at the start with all the different manager profiles are all on standard. Attacking and Defending are just higher and lower part of the scales. Don't forget though that with the standard one you can tweak around a bit and give defenders defensive and attackers offensive instructions but remember to have no more then a 8 mentality gap between defence and attack

[Finknottle]

wwfan, Sir, you have much to answer for. Here was I, just having got through the first day, installing the game and going to get "stuck in", when I started to read your latest effort. Excellent!! However , now I cannot because I am going to make a concerted effort to read and [hopefully] inwardly digest all of the 45 printed pages of your work. Thank you for all the time and effort you must have put in.

P.S. Spurs 4 Liverpool [it doesn't really matter] 2. Could you send a copy to Senor R. Benitez, currently manager of a team not a million miles away?

[yonko]

So let me see if I've understood you correctly -

DMC - Defend

MCR - Support

MCL - Support

AMR - Support

AML - Attack

FC - Support

With so many supporting roles you're most likely going to have to get the best out of your fullbacks to get forward and attack, especially your DL seeing as you want your AML in the box. I'd say you could try with this attacking framework -

GK - 15 (Support)

DC - 14 (Defend)

DR/DL - 16 (Attack)

DMC - 16 (Defend)

MCR - 18 (Support)

MCL - 20 (Support)

AML/R - 18 (Attack/Support)

FC - 15 (Support)

Push up your D-Line as this utilizes a sweeper keeper so you can put as much pressure on the opponents as possible and play the game in their half (So called Domination). Obviously the pitch at Camp Nou is quite big so keep play quite wide (17) but watch out for opposition strikers to make sure they're not getting too much space. I know that the box to box is meant to have "Attack" role but due to him being box to box you migth have to adapt him to a support role but with high mentality to actually get him into the box. If not working well just put FWRD Runs Often.

Seeing as you're Barca I would say you're going to have to create a Control tactic as well because you'll come up against teams parking the bus at Camp Nou quite often. Slower tempo, wider play and lower D-line to lure the opposition out.

Let me know how it goes

First, thanks for the input. This framework is very attacking though. My aim is not be an ultra attacking team unless I need to - in which case this could work well.

I'm trying to create a tactic that dominates possession, creates quality chances but doesn't allow the opposition to have many chances of their own. This is the framework I'm using for most matches:

GK 8

DCr 10 (defend)

DCl 8 (defend)

FB's 12 (attack)

DMC 11 (defend)

MCr 12 (support)

MCl 14 (attack)

AMRL 15 (both attack)

FC 13 (support)

I play Xavi as deep playmaker (fwr=mixed, rwb=mixed, ls=rarely, ttb=often, crosses=mixed, cf=11, passing=10, hold up ball and free role) and Iniesta is my box to box with fwr=often, ls=mixed, no hold up ball and short passing @ 5. Messi on the right and Giovinco on the left as my advanced wing playmakers - fwr/rwb=often, ls/ttb=mixed, cross=rarely, cf=15 and free roles - because I want them cutting inside. Eto'o/Henry as FC with fwr/rwb=mixed, everything else on rarely, hold up ball, cf=15 and passing @ 7. D.Alves has fwr/rwb/cross=often, ttb=mixed, ls=rarely, cf=8, passing=9. I play Abidal a little differentlly - fwr=often, rwb/ttb/ls=rarely, cross=mixed, cf=5, passing=12. Puyol has everything on rarely and passing is direct at 12, while Marquez/Pique is played with ttb/passing=mixed

My tempo is 8-12, width is 12-16 and D-line is 10. Closing Down=mentality + 3 for every player.

I'm happy with what I see and if not I tend to change couple of things here and there. I have a little more attacking set up and a little less normal as my variations. But I don't use either extreme, I aim for balance and control.

Let me know what you think. Sorry for the long reply but I can't post screenies.

[JacketB]

Hi thanks for the guide its absolutely amazing! is helping me develop my 4-4-2 tactic more, I was having a look at your preset tactics as well and I really like the looks of the Quieroz one, I was going to look at developing a defensive version of it too as it seems very attack minded. I am also struggling to get the most out of the CM I keep on getting ratings of below 6, the normal player I play in position is M Fernandes (Im managing Valencia) is he not the sort of player this position suits?

[RT--]

Great work, wwfan, millie and everyone else.

The idea of setting a system of mentalities/creative freedom/closing down and then making it more attacking or defensive really highlights how useful it would be if we had a slider that moved everyone's settings up/down by however many points you wanted. It would make things a heck of a lot easier, and I can't imagine it would be hugely difficult to implement.

[Mizta05]

I bow down in the dust and salute you this is simply aweinspiring what you have done!!! Thanks for putting in all that work on behalf of all of us tactic lamers!!

[alanricouk]

One thing I've noticed though is that your players man marking get pulled out of position, so never use man marking.

Only limit on OI to closing down to their AMC's or DMC's. No one else, as formations get pulled out of place because of it. Tight mark strikers if you must.

I just made a formation with this, and it failed badly because of these things. The AI doesnt doesnt seem capable of these things.

[mattbuck]

Hi WWF, i have a question.

I am using your guide for my tactics, i am bristol rovers. I have Rickie Lambert who i am using as a target man, to feet as he is creative, and has a good first touch. My other striker is fairly quick and has good ability Darryl Duffy, but he is always getting bad ratings and i cannot understand why. I have tried playing about with his mentality and forward runs. I have tried placing his mentality 3 notches higher than Rickie's who is my FMd, and tried placing his mentality the same, but he still gets a bad rating.

Here are my teams mentality settings.

Attack

DC - 11

DL/DR 13

CMd - 11

ML - 15

MR - 15

AMC - 15

FCd - 15

FCa - 18

I tried to use your guide to setup my mentalities, but i am sure i have something wrong. I basically want to have my 3 defensive players as 2xCD and 1 x CM playing defensive, but not an offical DM (not in the DM position), then i want my 2 full backs as support, and my AMC as an attacking AM getting into the box.

Any tips?

[Finknottle]

Anyone. I have printed out the 45 pages of wwfan's epistle. However, I would also like to read the two page pdf crib sheet. I don't know how to get it to open. It is lying upon my desktop, haunting me. I haven't any idea how to use Open office or anything like it, so I hope it doesn't involve anything of that nature. Simple instructions, please, for a simple twit!

[Old Scouser Tommy]

Brilliant again wwfan. I always enjoy reading his opening thread. It is always a pleasure to know that someone has taken the time to try and help others. Not necessarily the players who can sometimes struggle tactically but everyone can take something from this. Playesr should always know that this is only a framework ans is to be tweaked and played with dependant on situation and player ability.

I always create my own tactic and system of playing. I always take things from wwfan's framework and incorporate it into my own theories of how I want my teams to play. I always start with Liverpool ans this time will try things from the framework along with my own ideas.

Thanks again wwfan. Good luck to everyone.

[JacketB]

Hi, i have been looking at the Excel TT&F wizard and i have noticed that changing the framework (ie 2-6-2, bands of two etc) does not change anything on the spreadsheet, changing the formation and variant changes the player settings but when I change the framework nothing happens. I am using office 2003 is this this problem or is the problem with the spreadsheet? Thanks

[Wakers]

Hi, i have been looking at the Excel TT&F wizard and i have noticed that changing the framework (ie 2-6-2, bands of two etc) does not change anything on the spreadsheet, changing the formation and variant changes the player settings but when I change the framework nothing happens. I am using office 2003 is this this problem or is the problem with the spreadsheet? Thanks

Was just about to post this. The player instructions don't change when you change the framework.

[Justified]

I think I'm going to have a whirl at the Arsene Wenger way of setting up tactics seeing as it's probably the only theory I haven't tried out yet. To test this out I think I am going to test it with Monaco, one of the Frenchie's past clubs. However I think I am going to test it with a much wider scope of mentality but not too much to create gaps.

[stioegl]

Thanks for a really exciting text/document.

However I'm trying to use and understand the TT&F Wizard, but all my cells in the individal instructions always shows #I/T.

Have I misunderstood the use of the sheet, og is there anything wrong. I'm currently using OpenOffice 3.0.

PS! When I downloaded the file and tried to unpack it, I got an errormessage. This resulted in me copying all the .tac files, 2 two .pdf files and the .xml file myself, and not unpacking the entire file. Can this be the problem?

[footynut]

I cannot believe the amount of work that must have gone in to writing this excellent guide. I'm not sure I agree with everything that's written but it has to be the most helpful and interesting guide ever written and I really enjoyed reading it.

Thanks

[wwfan]

Anyone. I have printed out the 45 pages of wwfan's epistle. However, I would also like to read the two page pdf crib sheet. I don't know how to get it to open. It is lying upon my desktop, haunting me. I haven't any idea how to use Open office or anything like it, so I hope it doesn't involve anything of that nature. Simple instructions, please, for a simple twit!

Adobe Acrobat Reader should do the trick.

Hi, i have been looking at the Excel TT&F wizard and i have noticed that changing the framework (ie 2-6-2, bands of two etc) does not change anything on the spreadsheet, changing the formation and variant changes the player settings but when I change the framework nothing happens. I am using office 2003 is this this problem or is the problem with the spreadsheet? Thanks

It only works on Office 2007 or office:mac and OpenOffice 3.0. Office 2003 doesn't have the functionality required to display everything correctly. If there was an error in the extraction/download, I'd try it again.

[23drd23]

Thanks for the great guide to the ME and how to make your own tactics

With most of the manager styles/mentality systems that you discuss (Nike Defence, Libero etc), they all seem to be based around a standard 4-4-2. What settings would you use in a 4-3-1-2 (with an AMC and 3 CMs, one being an MCd)?

How would you get the most out of the AMC? Every time i've tried so far, he seems to do really poorly. And would there still need to be an FCd to link up with the midfield if you have an AMC?

[wwfan]

Thanks for the great guide to the ME and how to make your own tactics

With most of the manager styles/mentality systems that you discuss (Nike Defence, Libero etc), they all seem to be based around a standard 4-4-2. What settings would you use in a 4-3-1-2 (with an AMC and 3 CMs, one being an MCd)?

How would you get the most out of the AMC? Every time i've tried so far, he seems to do really poorly. And would there still need to be an FCd to link up with the midfield if you have an AMC?

For the frameworks, just make the most obvious changes, i.e. to make a 4-4-2 into a 4-3-1-2 move the wingers into the MCR and MCL slots, the MCd as MCC and the MCa as AMC. Everything else you can leave the same.

[Stirfry]

This is hands down the greatest thread I have seen on the Internet on any subject.

This is a great work and I thank you very much for producing it, it adds a tremendous amount to the experience.

[Bert44]

Im very confused about my strikers. I play with Leeds and have Becchio and Beckford upfront, becchio is the TM and Beckford the quick forward. Now Im currently using a "control" type of mentality for my 442 formation, but the problem is my strikers dont get any shots. They both get 1 shot each every game, whilst my winger gets 6. What can I do to get my strikers going?

[23drd23]

For the frameworks, just make the most obvious changes, i.e. to make a 4-4-2 into a 4-3-1-2 move the wingers into the MCR and MCL slots, the MCd as MCC and the MCa as AMC. Everything else you can leave the same.

But what if I dont want to play with wingers? Ive got quite a few good CMs and a couple of DMs but no good wingers in my squad (and no transfer budget to get an decent ones) so need a tactic that doesnt need wingers.

[coldcell]

Hi,

What formation do you suggest to reflect on Arsenal's real life type of plays? I've looked at your spreadsheet.. should I use the setup according to Bands of Two? I'm trying to play a high tempo game with Henry playing the offside line.

It seems that you favor Free Roles and Hold up Ball. Wouldnt assigning too many people to these roles be counter productive? For example the 3 person nearest to the goals all have free roles. What happen if they all decide to drop back to get the ball? There wouldnt be anyone to pass to up front.

[Johnyboy]

there so much to read.can any tell me the bewts formation for man u please

[Johnyboy]

i mean best formation

[killface]

*Applause* I've never been too much on tactic tweaking, but after reading this...my goodness. Absolutely brilliant. Right now I'm using the 2-6-2 in a 4-4-2 at Roma with De Rossi as a deep lying playmaker and Mexes as a sweeper. Just in the friendlies still, but I actually enjoy watching the match now. First match was a bit sketchy, but in the second one I managed to get Vucinic 4 goals.

Well I played my first real match against Inter and did pretty well. Lost in penalties, but only allowed 1 goal and it was on a mistake by Tonneto. Really starting to get a feel for this and it's all thanks to this post.

[killface]

But what if I dont want to play with wingers? Ive got quite a few good CMs and a couple of DMs but no good wingers in my squad (and no transfer budget to get an decent ones) so need a tactic that doesnt need wingers.

Just play the MC's in the MCL and MCR spots, you can control how wide they play by varying the crossing and closing down settings. If you want them tight put rarely cross, wide often cross.

[Sweed]

wwfan, thanks for a great piece of work. Both the guide and wizard are pure genius and will help both noobs and veterans alike. First tried to open the wizard with open office (v2.X) with no luck and was disappointed(hadn't visited this tread at the time). Thought I'd check for an update and found open office 3.0 had been released just a short time ago. Voila the wizard opened, brilliant.

I'll be sharing this thread with other US players that have tried in the past to get into FM but have been a little overwhelmed, like I was when I bought my first FM in 2006.

Thanks again to you and all that contributed to this wonderful tool.

[wwfan]

there so much to read.can any tell me the bewts formation for man u please

It's not really how things work, that one formation will best suit a team. However, if you use the download link in the original post, you will find 72 different tactics. I'm sure one of them will help.

[Bridger]

Great work !!!

[Delilah_katona]

THANKS, prefera a traditional 4-4-2 formation

[marcoavgousti]

someones stayed up allnight drinking plenty of coffee, nice work chaps i know where ill be coming for help when im 2-0 down at half time.

[stioegl]

Thanks for a really exciting text/document.

However I'm trying to use and understand the TT&F Wizard, but all my cells in the individal instructions always shows #I/T.

Have I misunderstood the use of the sheet, og is there anything wrong. I'm currently using OpenOffice 3.0.

PS! When I downloaded the file and tried to unpack it, I got an errormessage. This resulted in me copying all the .tac files, 2 two .pdf files and the .xml file myself, and not unpacking the entire file. Can this be the problem?

Anyone that can help me with my problem using TT&F Wizard? I don't have a clue...

[babba1975]

how can i see if i have 2 or 8 in mentality? must i download someting to see that?

[wwfan]

how can i see if i have 2 or 8 in mentality? must i download someting to see that?

You count the slider clicks. Far left is 1, far right 20.

[babba1975]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by babba1975

how can i see if i have 2 or 8 in mentality? must i download someting to see that?

You count the slider clicks. Far left is 1, far right 20.

Thx