Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '09

[wwfan]

OK. I've uploaded it again, without a hint of a power-cut. Can anybody confirm it is working?

[Tricky Dicky]

OK. I've uploaded it again, without a hint of a power-cut. Can anybody confirm it is working?

Works fine now. Thanks.

[Code]

What a thread. Amazing. Respect

[Arsenal71]

Rich the wizard when converted ((as cannot be opened in earlier version) was going to be saved as earlier version at ne point) when changing the framework the stats do not update for some reason so you have the role theory and 5x5 exactly the same. The only change to the stats is when you change variant. Could you look into this pleae and upload a version that works in an earlier version of office. The main query i had with it was the passing, shouldnt that change depending on the framework?

[Poyplemonkeys]

Your spreadsheet doesn't seem to be taking the role theory you've explained here and displaying it correctly. As I understand it all players of each role should have the same mentality, yet when setting it to Role Theory I have support players with mentalities of 10, 10, 12, 15.

Also the entire spreadsheet is protected and locked so I can't find out why. Any chance I could unlock it or you could upload an unlocked version?

[RobinGoodey]

wwfan - the spreadsheet can't be opened if you don't have Office 2007 - any chance you could add it in in .xls format as well as the .xlsx format? (this then allows Office 2003 (and before) to open it)

Cheers

[iamjerome]

incredible effort. good job.

[wwfan]

wwfan - the spreadsheet can't be opened if you don't have Office 2007 - any chance you could add it in in .xls format as well as the .xlsx format? (this then allows Office 2003 (and before) to open it)

Cheers

I'll see what I can do. I'll add a link later if I can fix it. It's Millie's area of expertise, not mine.

[Arsenal71]

I'll see what I can do. I'll add a link later if I can fix it. It's Millie's area of expertise, not mine.

I thought he fixed it, or was going to at least.

[Millie]

It now works with Open Office, but Excel users will need Excel 2003 or higher.

I will rework it for 2003 or lower if there's a big demand, but it's a bigger undertaking. Basically, I can't quickly save it in 2003 format because there are too many "if" statements - it will only let me "nest" 7 in 2003 and before, when a lot of my calculations use a lot more. So, I need to completely rewrite it.

Which I can do. But not for a few days at least.

In the mean time, use Excel post-2003 or Open Office if you can. If not, hang tight and I'll see what I can do.

[Super Bladesman]

Your spreadsheet doesn't seem to be taking the role theory you've explained here and displaying it correctly. As I understand it all players of each role should have the same mentality, yet when setting it to Role Theory I have support players with mentalities of 10, 10, 12, 15.

Also the entire spreadsheet is protected and locked so I can't find out why. Any chance I could unlock it or you could upload an unlocked version?

I noticed this - what version of Office do you have? I'm wondering if it's an Office non-2007 issue with nested statements.

When I change the formation or mentality, things happen down below. When I apply the role theory business - Rule of One, Nike Defence etc - nothing changes in the output

It's still useful anyway, but I get the feeling it's not how it was intended

Is there a program that will allow you to view Office 2007 files in their intended format - may be an easy and free workaround if so, and if this is actually the (minor) issue.

[Poyplemonkeys]

I am using Excel 2003. As the spreadsheet is locked down I can't check out the formulas in the hidden cells to see where exactly it's going wrong. All I know is it's wrong

[horseman_Plague]

wow thank you this is really nice. Its alot more then we deserve

[Millie]

I am using Excel 2003. As the spreadsheet is locked down I can't check out the formulas in the hidden cells to see where exactly it's going wrong. All I know is it's wrong

It's working at my end - the "role theory" mentalities for "support" players should read 7, 11 or 15. The same should work for all the others. I don't know how it could be producing anything different to these numbers. :S

It was made in Office 2007, so whether this is a known issue or not, I don't know.

Basically, it's going to have to be rewritten. I'll see what I can come up with over the next few days.

[Lisandro Lopez]

Nice work guys, I'm sure it will help alot of people

[Poyplemonkeys]

It's working at my end - the "role theory" mentalities for "support" players should read 7, 11 or 15. The same should work for all the others. I don't know how it could be producing anything different to these numbers. :S

It was made in Office 2007, so whether this is a known issue or not, I don't know.

Basically, it's going to have to be rewritten. I'll see what I can come up with over the next few days.

Must be the version of Excel I'm using then. Will check it out on a later version when I get home.

[Justified]

If I could add just a few lines about TT&F09. First off it's a great read for first time users as it gives you more insight into how tactics work in different formations, not just a regular 4-4-2 like maybe previous TT&F's have. However to get these frameworks to work you need to combine it with good man-management (comments about recent form, squad happiness) and also not asking your players to positions and roles that they cannot do. When you takeover a team, look at their strengths and play to their strengths to get maximum potential out of them.

[damienroden]

42 pages in word, bloody good effort.

[SCH]

Fantastic, incredible, this makes the game so much fun, thx dudes!

[Arsenal71]

the mentalities work just the others. the have the 'value' inserted into the cell which indicates its not working. Look at the passing cells.

[Pope of Pot, King of Nothi]

I can't buy a win as Liverpool Hmm. Was high flying in the demo, though...

[Cleon]

Finally something worth reading, another success mate

Btw the Nike defence was created by Buxton not Justified.

[Justified]

Finally something worth reading, another success mate

Btw the Nike defence was created by Buxton not Justified.

Actually the term Nike defence was created by Buxton. The actual idea has been around since the 99/00 series where it stemmed from the old DDL (Diagonal Defence Line). Can't remember who actually created it. It was either Dave Challinor or Martin O'Neill (not the real people obviously )

Anyways it's good to see it in the TT&F as it's just a way of setting up a Stop/Sweep system between two centre backs.

[wwfan]

Finally something worth reading, another success mate

Btw the Nike defence was created by Buxton not Justified.

So I've been told. However, it was Justified that produced the full Nike mentality system I've employed, towards the end of 08. I hope Buxton doesn't mind. Apologies and belated credits to him.

[Lordy]

Brilliant, the ammount of work you put in to help others is breath taking

You would be the first inductee into the Football Manager hall of fame if there was one.

[Sam Smith2]

Great read wwfan and Millie.learnt alot about tactics.

As ive got a old pc I`m still playing FM2005,Im guessing these ideas and theries will still hold good on 05??

[wwfan]

Episode 2-01: FM09 Tactic Building and Demo Review / Get Sacked/FML Extra Podcast

The podcast is now live and for those of you who don't want to scroll back to the opening post, it can be found here. Alternatively, you can access it via iTunes under the Get Sacked/FML Extra Podcast.

Hope you all enjoy it.

[ham_aka_stam]

Fantastic, it is nice to have all this stuff in one place and I can assure you it will be downloaded to the desktop!

One quick question though, with the global mentality, if you are playing attacking, ie 14-16 mentality, would the CBs closing down be 14-16 too? or would you lower this? Because I've seen mine charging into MF to close players down when someone else may have been better positioned to do so. (Surely due to anticipation but thats besides the point)

I cannot mention how grateful I am for your work, nice one, you've managed to keep me quietly slacking at work for a decent while now

[Sam Smith2]

Sorry wwfan another question thats been bothering me for a while.

What exactly does ticking the Counter Attack button do to your team/individual instruction?

As Ive read before the players defend deeper and play long quick passes to the fowards,does this mean your Indiv/team Mentalities are taken down a few nothes and your tempo automatically increases without you altering anythink?

[Justified]

Sorry wwfan another question thats been bothering me for a while.

What exactly does ticking the Counter Attack button do to your team/individual instruction?

As Ive read before the players defend deeper and play long quick passes to the fowards,does this mean your Indiv/team Mentalities are taken down a few nothes and your tempo automatically increases without you altering anythink?

When it comes to counter attacking play it's possible by just have quick tempo and direct passing. Ticking Counter Attack makes your team more cautious by only attacking when the chance is on. There are rumours about that it makes your team allow the opposition more onto you but I've yet to see any evidence of that.

[Hammer1000]

I have been playing around with a few sets of the tactics you made available and whilst they look very solid and there is some great build up play, there seems to be a massive problem in the final third, with each one i've used so far, that being that any of my players within sight of goal, will opt to take a long shot and a good final ball in the final third of the pitch, i have basically yet to see?

I did of course try changing the players long shot instructions to rare, but with no effect?

[Sam Smith2]

Thanks Justified much appreciated

[wwfan]

I have been playing around with a few sets of the tactics you made available and whilst they look very solid and there is some great build up play, there seems to be a massive problem in the final third, with each one i've used so far, that being that any of my players within sight of goal, will opt to take a long shot and a good final ball in the final third of the pitch, i have basically yet to see?

I did of course try changing the players long shot instructions to rare, but with no effect?

They are generic alternate defaults, nothing more, nothing less, and to make them work well you have to adapt them to your players, as Justified pointed out. All they are intended to do is make your team play roughly to level i.e Man Utd won't be near the bottom of the table and unable to buy a win. In order to get them working more efficiently, you have to adapt them in accordance to the guide, your squad and your own tactical preferences. Simply changing long shots settings just won't cut it.

[Hammer1000]

They are generic alternate defaults, nothing more, nothing less, and to make them work well you have to adapt them to your players, as Justified pointed out. All they are intended to do is make your team play roughly to level i.e Man Utd won't be near the bottom of the table and unable to buy a win. In order to get them working more efficiently, you have to adapt them in accordance to the guide, your squad and your own tactical preferences. Simply changing long shots settings just won't cut it.

I was'nt having a dig at the tactics you provided, i have found this to be a global issue with EVERY tactic (including my own) used so far (Demo)

I started my first Demo game with the Hammers and as i was finding it hard to create and get players to do as they are told, i decided to start three seperate games with Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal, yet with all i have tried, i am still basically getting the same problem?

I find that i'm basically getting the same results and stats whether i'm using a 5-4-1 defensive tactic or a very wide attacking 4-2-4 and it all seems to be because of the same issues?

1. My players shoot on sight at goal, usually about 25-30 yards out?

2. My players having rarely beaten the last defender, will still shoot from distance rather than take the ball in further for an easier effort?

3. None of my players seem capable of playing a decent through ball? (Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Lampard, Deco, Fabregas etc?)

[Justified]

I was'nt having a dig at the tactics you provided, i have found this to be a global issue with EVERY tactic (including my own) used so far (Demo)

I started my first Demo game with the Hammers and as i was finding it hard to create and get players to do as they are told, i decided to start three seperate games with Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal, yet with all i have tried, i am still basically getting the same problem?

I find that i'm basically getting the same results and stats whether i'm using a 5-4-1 defensive tactic or a very wide attacking 4-2-4 and it all seems to be because of the same issues?

1. My players shoot on sight at goal, usually about 25-30 yards out?

2. My players having rarely beaten the last defender, will still shoot from distance rather than take the ball in further for an easier effort?

3. None of my players seem capable of playing a decent through ball? (Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Lampard, Deco, Fabregas etc?)

Right, just had a look at West Ham myself (not as manager but on their squad screen). At best they are a 11th-7th type of club. They have quality, but not in all areas. So what I propose is that you look at your players and get a formation around them. Having 3 great attackers in Ashton, Bellamy and Di Michele I would say any formation with 5 in midfield could be a waste. Go with a straight 4-4-2 with Ashton and Bellamy as your starting players with a "little and large" combo. That way you have Michele on the bench as "plan B". Etherington and Faubert could provide pace down the flanks with Noble being your creative outlet. Seeing as you have a midtable team I would go with a MCa and MCd, a creator and a destroyer which would make Mullins your best choice.

Now having a midtable team would mean most CF and free roles are out the window, start simple. Even if you have to give the lowest CF to all players and then tweak as you go along then do so, I always do, most often then not having on low works really well barring you giving bad instructions. Going into pre-season put most intructions on mixed apar from forward runs, put them according to your opposition and then watch the match on a slowish tempo. Are you winning headers? Are you passing well? Are your ball carriers getting forward?.. Observe observe observe until you actually get to know what exactly your players can do.

Does this make any sense?

[Hammer1000]

Right, just had a look at West Ham myself (not as manager but on their squad screen). At best they are a 11th-7th type of club. They have quality, but not in all areas. So what I propose is that you look at your players and get a formation around them. Having 3 great attackers in Ashton, Bellamy and Di Michele I would say any formation with 5 in midfield could be a waste. Go with a straight 4-4-2 with Ashton and Bellamy as your starting players with a "little and large" combo. That way you have Michele on the bench as "plan B". Etherington and Faubert could provide pace down the flanks with Noble being your creative outlet. Seeing as you have a midtable team I would go with a MCa and MCd, a creator and a destroyer which would make Mullins your best choice.

Now having a midtable team would mean most CF and free roles are out the window, start simple. Even if you have to give the lowest CF to all players and then tweak as you go along then do so, I always do, most often then not having on low works really well barring you giving bad instructions. Going into pre-season put most intructions on mixed apar from forward runs, put them according to your opposition and then watch the match on a slowish tempo. Are you winning headers? Are you passing well? Are your ball carriers getting forward?.. Observe observe observe until you actually get to know what exactly your players can do.

Does this make any sense?

Justified - Appreciate what you are saying mate, but my problem is not just a West Ham issue.

In fact, i was probably creating more GOOD chances, playing as the Hammers than i have in my three seperate games with Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd. This i imagine is down to the fact that teams play more aggressively against me when i am West Ham, as opposed to very defensive when playing as one of the three big clubs.

The football my team (be it WHU or MU) is playing at the back and in midfield is fine, its when we hit the final third that we begin to have problems.

This is what i'm trying to achieve?

1. Stopping my players shooting on sight

2. Getting my players to try through balls

and maybe?

3. Getting my players to run closer to goal with the ball if/when they do get behind the last defender?

If you see what i mean, its not just a good team/bad team problem, its more a game problem, with like i say, even the likes of Fabregas and Co unable to open up even the poorest defence with a decent through ball?

[tony23]

hammer1000...what you are saying is true mate. my team is playing very well at the back and the midfield. the only problem is they dont know how to produce the final product which is scoring a goal. my midfield players keep blasting the goal outside the 6 yards box. it has nothing to do with the tactic we use i reckon, its more a game problem.

My mancty team

Ochoa

richard dunne radoi marcelo

srna veloso riquelme petrov

huntellar robinho

isnt my team good enough to play a decent attacking football with less shooting outside the penalty box?

[Aleh]

Superb effort.

[Oxslow]

Looks like theres plenty for me to read and learn.

It might be worth adding this if you redo the pdf. It also works with Open Office 3.0.0 which is free. To this line.

"TT&F ’09 Tactical Wizard: Excel-based wizard providing a step-by-step tactical design guide (requires Office 2003 or later)"

That might stop Millie having to do some extra work and spread the word of Open Office.

[Big H]

Thank you all for the massive effort that went into preparing these guides. For the first time in many versions of CM/FM I am going to create and test my own tactics based on the principles you have covered. Cheers

[gustieguy06]

Absolutely brilliant. You guys are amazing. This kind of stuff, along with all the great discussions there are in the tactics forum in general, are the reasons this forum is so great. This far far far outweighs all the damage done by the punters who come on here, fun their mouth off, and leave. I've been a quiet observer and very occasional participant in the boards for about 4 years now, and you guys (wwfan, cleon, rashidi, justified, et al.) deserve a million thanks for making this board great. So thank you.

[Marinho]

This is truly astonishing, i have skipped the last 2 FMs due to not having an adequate computer and haven´t followed the forums consequently, so i am kind of overwhelmed by the game (demo to date, hope to get the full version tomorrow) and now to get such a great piece of work is awesome !

I have 1 problem however, how do i import the tactics with the demo version ? Maybe it isn´t possible there ?

I also have the feeling i don´t see all folders in the windows explorer, could they somehow be hidden ? (i´m on vista)

EDIT : Ah , my bad, totally forgot about the fact that FM has those kind of things outside the normal game folder but at documents. Well, as i said it´s been a while

[Lloydey]

This is a superb piece of work. It brings together some of the more insightful tactical ideas and theories of many of the best contributors to this forum over the last few years. I do not post very often on this board due to time constraints (crap job...) so to have this all in one place is fantastic. As a competent (but not brilliant manager), I'm sure I will use this guide as a reference tool for my attack on FM09 this year!

One issue - when I try to print the PDF it doesn't come out correctly - the font comes out all corrupted. Is this deliberate or an issue with my printer - anyone else successfully printed?

[Celtic_1967]

excellent work tatics fella's. Not read all of it yet, but will have a couple of spare hours tomorrow so will digest it then. I like many will be forever in your debt!

[lim]

wow so much info to much to take in :S, dont understand some of the mentalities and what the fcd and fca settings should be in a typical sir alex fergouson mentality split any suggestions??

thanks in advanced

[Justified]

wow so much info to much to take in :S, dont understand some of the mentalities and what the fcd and fca settings should be in a typical sir alex fergouson mentality split any suggestions??

thanks in advanced

Read this part -

Using the suggested mentality setting of the DC as a base (x) we recommend the following settings as a rough guide for an effective strike partnership.

Defensive: FCd (x + 5); FCa (x + 8)

Standard: FCd (x + 3); FCa (x + 7)

Attacking: FCd (x + 1); FCa (x + 6)

[afeckingname]

lads either millie or wwfan i just want to praise your for the 4-4-1-1 tactic because you have it working like a gem even if you only consider it a default. Riquelme comes deep acts like a playmaker without the instructions to be one and is basically a footballing god in my game. I would not sell him for 100 million.

[alanricouk]

I've decided that I am crap at life, and I am going to make a whole new tactic from scratch using all the info in here. If I'm not successful after this, then I am an EPIC FAIL.

[alanricouk]

How do you take wingers out the game using opposition instructions? I have it set so I make them go on their weaker foot; is there anything else I can do?

[phnompenhandy]

For me, TT&F is, quite simply, the most enjoyable aspect of the most enjoyable part of my life. It makes FM endlessly fascinating. Whilst I'm an anorak tactician by nature, I'd never work out 10% of what these guys uncover - they have my heartfelt gratitude.

I've still got a week of my FM08 campaign left before my disk arrives - I'll be tweaking away what's applicable to 08 that's new to me until the bitter end once I plough through this guide. :thup::thup: