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So during my morecambe save I’ve been struggling to grow the club so I can attract better players and get more fans. I’ve tried a lot of stuff and even got promoted to football league 1 and won the checkarade trophy but still very low on the average attendance. Also trying to loan players from bigger clubs get told a lot they want their player to play with better talent even tho I had them on loan just the past year why is that?

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In my experience the only surefire way to grow the club is to overachieve continually, as the in-game reputation seems to take a few years to catch up with your progress.  I suppose it’s because you need to establish yourself in a higher division to show that you’re a bigger club now than you were before. 

Also clubs won’t want to necessarily loan their best young prospects to a team that’s deemed to be facing a season of struggle, which you will probably be labelled as as you have just been promoted. 

Perhaps ask for an affiliate club and their loan players may be more open to joining you? 

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Yeah I find this really annoying and when going through careers over the years.

Does anyone know if the geography of your team plays a part in how big your club can get? I managed Gateshead in FM12 or 14 and took them from obscurity to Championship and yet my stadium was still only 15% of capacity and I always had a thought that maybe due to home small Gateshead is maybe that's why the fans didn't fill the stadium. Had to leave and drop back down and instead ended up taking Leeds back into the Premiership as they were easier to grow back.

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Given the level of detail I’d be surprised if geography didn’t play a part.  Ultimately you’d be competing with much more established clubs who will draw the majority of fans etc.  You may be better off growing a club in an area where there is not a hugely established presence, but that’s all hypothetical. 

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Yeah that's what I thought. But then, what if you go somewhere which is only a small town with not a big population regardless of the fact there are no big teams around you? Does that then play a role? There is only so many people in that town so is it worth then asking for a 25k stadium even if you've taken your team from obscurity to competing in Europe?

I've REALLY caught the bug for developing small teams past few years so very interested in this thread lol

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Years ago I used to play around in the editor creating my own club, and from memory the population of a locality is included.  Logically then that will factor in to things such as attendances etc.  I’d hazard a guess that most(?) places would have enough people to fill a 25k stadium within their catchment area if they were far and away the biggest club for miles.  

I’m currently Torquay and as my biggest challengers will be Plymouth and Exeter, I’d be confident of selling out a 25k stadium if I was in the Prem/Europe.  I’ll let you know if it happens though!

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Currently doing a career with Warrington Town and been promoted twice to the National League, my attendances have gradually grown year on year but nothing too drastic and still have one of the lowest average attendances in the national league. I'd hope when (if!) I got promoted to league 2, there would be a big jump and reputation? I'm guessing becoming full time would also have a big effect on my team's reputation.

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3 hours ago, Matt_G said:

Given the level of detail I’d be surprised if geography didn’t play a part.  Ultimately you’d be competing with much more established clubs who will draw the majority of fans etc.  You may be better off growing a club in an area where there is not a hugely established presence, but that’s all hypothetical. 

Yes, it does. For example, the city will have an attractiveness rating and population range that you can look up in the editor. I also thing each club's set of fans will have various attributes as to how important football is for them, etc.

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City and region size do make a difference. And it should. I’m at Wrexham and now in the championship we usually sell out 10,000 stadium, but certainly have some difficulty recruiting talent; especially from larger clubs. That’s realistic to be difficult to 1) build on attendance in a town smaller than 100,000 and 2) attract top talent to a small town when opportunities at larger clubs/cities are also an option. 

Its an uphill battle no doubt. My payroll is at bottom of championship at $5m against top spenders Burnley at $55m lol

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shouldn't info like fan demographics and potential be more apparent in game? I shouldn't have to dig in the editor to find out that the local fans don't care about football and never will. 

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On 15/02/2019 at 10:31, s0ni42 said:

City and region size do make a difference. And it should. I’m at Wrexham and now in the championship we usually sell out 10,000 stadium, but certainly have some difficulty recruiting talent; especially from larger clubs. That’s realistic to be difficult to 1) build on attendance in a town smaller than 100,000 and 2) attract top talent to a small town when opportunities at larger clubs/cities are also an option. 

Its an uphill battle no doubt. My payroll is at bottom of championship at $5m against top spenders Burnley at $55m lol

The question i'd like to ask SI though is if you are constantly winning trophies and become a successful club, can the cities attractiveness and population change? Could Wrexham ever be on a level playing field with a city like London or Manchester in the game?

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23 minutes ago, Pattric_b said:

The question i'd like to ask SI though is if you are constantly winning trophies and become a successful club, can the cities attractiveness and population change? Could Wrexham ever be on a level playing field with a city like London or Manchester in the game?

I don’t think so. Whether or not SI does I’m not sure. 

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On 16/02/2019 at 21:03, Pattric_b said:

The question i'd like to ask SI though is if you are constantly winning trophies and become a successful club, can the cities attractiveness and population change? Could Wrexham ever be on a level playing field with a city like London or Manchester in the game?

Very few would move to a town or city because they have a successful football club.

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2 hours ago, Nobby_McDonald said:

Very few would move to a town or city because they have a successful football club.

Maybe not necessarily just because of a successful club. But having a successful club could have economic benefits for the city and surrounding area which could then result in it being a more desirable area to live. I'm not saying it always happens but it definitely could happen. 

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6 hours ago, Pattric_b said:

Maybe not necessarily just because of a successful club. But having a successful club could have economic benefits for the city and surrounding area which could then result in it being a more desirable area to live. I'm not saying it always happens but it definitely could happen. 

 

I would be interested to see this, provided the effect was realistic i.e. very gradual, city slowly grows but that growth gathers momentum over 5-10 seasons.

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9 hours ago, Kewell_Beans said:

 

I would be interested to see this, provided the effect was realistic i.e. very gradual, city slowly grows but that growth gathers momentum over 5-10 seasons.

Is that reslistic? I mean where are real life examples of modern day clubs growing the city, even moderately, due to their success? Quite honestly, the opposite seems more common where despite the presence of a large club in a relatively large city, the city is depressed or shrinking and the fortunes of the club slowly follow suit. 

I guess my point is improvement to a town/city desirability is tied to countless other factors that fall outside of the game constraints. That doesn’t mean you cannot improve your clubs desirability, but the effect in which that has on the city itself should be negligible if at all. You start bordering on fictional prediction if you go down that road.

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An adjacent case study would be the spree of stadiums built with heavy tax payer support in America in the 90s-2000s. Much of the findings there are additionally supported by data associated with Olympic/Workd Cup infrastructure investment. They do not positively affect the economic health or growth potential of the cities affected.

not a direct link to your points but some consideration against game adjusting cities and townships based on success/failures of club

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2 hours ago, s0ni42 said:

Is that reslistic? I mean where are real life examples of modern day clubs growing the city, even moderately, due to their success? Quite honestly, the opposite seems more common where despite the presence of a large club in a relatively large city, the city is depressed or shrinking and the fortunes of the club slowly follow suit. 

I guess my point is improvement to a town/city desirability is tied to countless other factors that fall outside of the game constraints. That doesn’t mean you cannot improve your clubs desirability, but the effect in which that has on the city itself should be negligible if at all. You start bordering on fictional prediction if you go down that road.


I think it is realistic, for sure.

From the POV of small-to-medium club's role in the community and the community's importance to those clubs. The patronage of local business is especially important to clubs in lower leagues and smaller footballing nations. It is extremely common for clubs to hold forums with local business owners, not just fans. In cases where a club rises through the leagues, with support of local business community, the rising club has a direct impact on tourism, infrastructure and the attractiveness of a town/city for further investment, creating jobs and stimulating growth.

A great example of this would be Bournemouth.

https://www.dorsetmagazine.co.uk/people/steve-fletcher-the-positive-impact-afc-bournemouth-has-in-the-community-1-4649998

"This is a community relationship that works both ways. We are so fortunate to benefit from the support of our fans, local institutions and organisations which are all vital to us. AFC Bournemouth’s club motto is ‘together, anything is possible’ and we certainly feel anything is possible with the magnificent relationship we have with the local community."

Also true and realistic from the POV of big clubs that make serious investments in their town/city. Spurs' new stadium and Everton's planned new stadium double up as rejuvenation projects for parts of London and Liverpool, includes improvements to local infrastructure and bring new money/business to parts of the city that would otherwise go without. Manchester City investing £200+ million in state-of-the art training facilities. Direct impact through various construction jobs, money trickling down into all kinds of local business. Indirect impact through increased tourism and related spend (new hotels and restaurants, extra business for existing hotels and restaurants, use of local transport, etc) in the areas where they locate.

Whether a small club on the rise or a big club investing in a particular area, it brings more people (and money) to a given area, creates more jobs, improves spend power and quality of life in a given location = desirable location = new housing and increased population = increased club revenue, more supporters, bigger gates, merchandise sales and so on.

Edit: I do agree with your point also, there are plenty of clubs in decline due to the constraints of their local town/city, i.e. Sheffield Wednesday & Sheffield United suffered from the decline of Sheffield's local steel and coal industries, etc.
 

Screen Shot 2019-02-22 at 10.57.24 AM.png

Edited by Kewell_Beans

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2 hours ago, s0ni42 said:

An adjacent case study would be the spree of stadiums built with heavy tax payer support in America in the 90s-2000s. Much of the findings there are additionally supported by data associated with Olympic/Workd Cup infrastructure investment. They do not positively affect the economic health or growth potential of the cities affected.

not a direct link to your points but some consideration against game adjusting cities and townships based on success/failures of club


I think Olympic / World Cup infrastructure investment is a different kettle of fish, compared to a community's club(s) rising through the leagues and positively contributing to a given area's profile, tourism, economy, etc.

Few people see the value of the stadium construction projects in Qatar, for the sake of one World Cup. However Spurs' new stadium, even at £800+ million, does represent value to local economy, tourism, etc and is worthy of heavy tax payer support.

Going back to Bournemouth, their capacity is very small (11,000) and they have been exploring expansion / new stadium for 5+ years now, as demand for tickets far outweighs their capacity following their recent success / overachievement. If Bournemouth tripled their capacity and manage to attract an extra 5,000 - 20,000 fans 4-5 times a month, that is huge for the local economy.

Screen Shot 2019-02-22 at 11.35.12 AM.png

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1 hour ago, Kewell_Beans said:


I think Olympic / World Cup infrastructure investment is a different kettle of fish, compared to a community's club(s) rising through the leagues and positively contributing to a given area's profile, tourism, economy, etc.

Few people see the value of the stadium construction projects in Qatar, for the sake of one World Cup. However Spurs' new stadium, even at £800+ million, does represent value to local economy, tourism, etc and is worthy of heavy tax payer support.

Going back to Bournemouth, their capacity is very small (11,000) and they have been exploring expansion / new stadium for 5+ years now, as demand for tickets far outweighs their capacity following their recent success / overachievement. If Bournemouth tripled their capacity and manage to attract an extra 5,000 - 20,000 fans 4-5 times a month, that is huge for the local economy.

Screen Shot 2019-02-22 at 11.35.12 AM.png

Bournemouth should probably be viewed in a different light as it is smaller town/city and therefore more likely to feel the impact of the clubs success. So maybe that is more to the point if our original conversation.

I’m no expert but Spurs stadium, unless for some reason it’s an outlier, will not provide the tax payers a proportionate return on their tax dollars. That model consistently gets proven as net negative for the tax payer. I am, admittedly, ignorant on the specific deal and tax payer contribution but this is usually an oversold bill of goods that disproportionately favors the owner.

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On 22/02/2019 at 15:59, s0ni42 said:

Bournemouth should probably be viewed in a different light as it is smaller town/city and therefore more likely to feel the impact of the clubs success. So maybe that is more to the point if our original conversation.

I’m no expert but Spurs stadium, unless for some reason it’s an outlier, will not provide the tax payers a proportionate return on their tax dollars. That model consistently gets proven as net negative for the tax payer. I am, admittedly, ignorant on the specific deal and tax payer contribution but this is usually an oversold bill of goods that disproportionately favors the owner.

Yes maybe I should have clarified when I originally posted but I was speaking about smaller towns/cities because I am currently managing Farsley Celtic and they play in Pudsey. But interestingly enough we got promoted to the Premier League and used Huddersfield's stadium for a season until our new stadium was built and we averaged 23,777 people on the season. Not bad for a small club from Farsley/Pudsey area. 

Although I do completely agree with you about the strain a new stadium can have on local taxpayers. You see it in America constantly, owners building a new stadium for hundreds of millions and sometimes billions of dollars, which is never recouped. The baseball team Miami Marlins is a good example of that. They built a new stadium for a horribly run franchise that was completely paid for by tax dollars and only ever have a few thousand fans show up, but that is a whole different topic of discussion. It would be pretty interesting to see things like this in FM though. 

Edited by Pattric_b

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Bournemouth is arguably an equally good case for the limits to growth. It's part of a conurbation of nearly half a million people with no other club of any size, it has a team that's now established in the top tier and its under-sized stadium isn't as full as most of the rest of the Premier League's much bigger stadiums. I'm sure they do lots of good PR stuff in the local community and bring in punters to pubs near the ground and a few overnight stays in B&Bs, but the club aren't growing the town, and even as quite a big town the attendances haven't jumped overnight.

Needless to say if you're a League 1 club from a town of 34k people and most of the other nearby settlements have bigger football teams, your attendance isn't going to be huge. FM isn't perfect in modelling that but it does correctly realise that fanbases aren't going to grow overnight, especially not in the third tier.

As for clubs deciding it wants its players to play with better players even though you've loaned them before, that's a simple matter of the club perceiving the player to have improved. David Beckham once got sent on loan to Preston in the old Third Division to get some experience, and played a handful of games. The following season he played 40 games for Man Utd as they won the title. If Preston asked for them back, they weren't getting him...   (FWIW in FM your chances of keeping a player are improved if you ask to extend an existing loan until the end of next season, rather than letting him return)

 

Edited by enigmatic

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3 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Bournemouth is arguably an equally good case for the limits to growth. It's part of a conurbation of nearly half a million people with no other club of any size, it has a team that's now established in the top tier and its under-sized stadium isn't as full as most of the rest of the Premier League's much bigger stadiums. I'm sure they do lots of good PR stuff in the local community and bring in punters to pubs near the ground and a few overnight stays in B&Bs, but the club aren't growing the town, and even as quite a big town the attendances haven't jumped overnight.

Needless to say if you're a League 1 club from a town of 34k people and most of the other nearby settlements have bigger football teams, your attendance isn't going to be huge. FM isn't perfect in modelling that but it does correctly realise that fanbases aren't going to grow overnight, especially not in the third tier.

As for clubs deciding it wants its players to play with better players even though you've loaned them before, that's a simple matter of the club perceiving the player to have improved. David Beckham once got sent on loan to Preston in the old Third Division to get some experience, and played a handful of games. The following season he played 40 games for Man Utd as they won the title. If Preston asked for them back, they weren't getting him...   (FWIW in FM your chances of keeping a player are improved if you ask to extend an existing loan until the end of next season, rather than letting him return)

 

Timing is helpful too on the loan question. On first day of window or even in season, teams have ability to be more picky with where they may send their player. Check back regularly bc I have found numerous times that a few weeks will change their approach.

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I've found the AI's opinion on loans to change both ways though and been annoyed that players available at the beginning of the window aren't at the end: I think small fluctuations in the players' perceived ability and potential at the club make a big difference to how willing they are to loan them out, as might tiny changes to your own club's reputation from match results. And for players that might actually be useful backup for the loaning club, how available the cover in the rest of their squad is, obviously.

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On 22/02/2019 at 00:54, Pattric_b said:

Maybe not necessarily just because of a successful club. But having a successful club could have economic benefits for the city and surrounding area which could then result in it being a more desirable area to live. I'm not saying it always happens but it definitely could happen. 

A successful team does bring economic benefits to a city but I wouldn't say it increases the population. Look at Stoke City's ten year stay in the Premier League. Bigger match day crowds bought more visitors to the city in both increased home support and higher away followings. These people need to eat and drink and some may even need to stay in hotels.

As for more people living in the city? Very few, if any, would have moved to the city because the football club was doing well.

It will be a similar tale in any town or city who's football club has done well for a period.

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