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BeadyRoller

After 15 Years Of Playing I'm Still Lost.

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Alright everyone. A little background before I explain about why I'm posting this thread.. I have been playing the Championship Manager/Football Manager series since CM 01/02 so I'm no newbie to the series. I'd say I'm average at the game, I do alright every year, my goal is always the same, take my hometown of Shrewsbury to the Premier League title and I usually achieve that so I like to think I can't be awful haha.

Anyway, that goal is the same this year and I'm currently in my 9th season with them sitting mid table in the league at the January mark. This is my 3rd season in the Prem now, I massively overachieved in my first season finishing 8th:

9u9hrr.png

So this brings me on to my problem. I cannot for the life of me seem to get any consistency going and my problem this year and every year in fact is understanding what is going wrong and what I need to change. I always have an idea in mind before I create a tactic of how I want to play but when the results don't come I am completely lost on what to do most of the time, I watch the game back on comprehensive highlights if a result didn't go as planned to try and find the problems but I just find myself staring at the screen not having a clue what I'm meant to be looking out for. Very frustrating.

This season is going very much like the last, finding it very hard to piece together any sort of form. I have been reading threads on here as of late, especially the one from @herne79 which was a brilliant read and I have tried implementing some of that in to my team and to a certain extend it is working:

2ikeg0.png

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No.1 in the league for possession and miles ahead of any other team with passes completed but that means nothing if I'm not doing anything with that possession. I just played 1st placed Man City away from home and had 60% possession against them but lost 3-0 and didn't have a single highlight so something is very wrong somewhere...

The tactic is this at the moment:

dh48bt.png

I'll discuss a little about what I'm trying to achieve:

My main aim is to have a lot of the ball as I'm a massive fan of Pep and what he does, I think I manage that pretty well as you can see from the above numbers. I also want my front 5 to press high when we don't have the ball, I have set them individually to do that as I don't want every single player to be pressing like mad man and losing their shape at the back.

My best player in the team is a regen on the right wing so want to try and make the most out of him, my thinking for playing an inside forward on attack on the other flank is to have more numbers in the box for my winger to be able to aim at. 

I have messed about with the strikers role, I either having a DLF or a Complete Forward, their job is to link the midfield to the attack as well as get themselves in the box and be a goal threat. Support and Attack tried, neither seems to get them going, always have poor ratings.

Midfield trio: The DLP's job is to stay in the hole and spray passes or just keep things ticking, I have a CM on attack to help out with supporting my striker and getting in the box. The DM is just there to shield my defence, nothing fancy from him, want him to lay the ball off to more creative players in front.

Wingback's job on the left is to provide some width for when the Inside Forward attacks the box and sits narrower. Fullback on the right is just to provide support for my winger and hopefully fill in when my right sided central midfielder goes forward.

Run of the mill centre backs, defend and keep things simple, again, nothing fancy.

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Team Instructions:

Higher Line Of Engagement is there to press from the front and not give the opponent time on the ball at the back, goes hand in hand with the pressing style I want. I did have a Higher Defensive Line but was getting caught out with balls over the top sometimes.

Take Short Kicks/Distribute To Centre Backs/Fullbacks is there to play out from the back, I don't want my keeper booting it forward. Counter Press to immediately press if we lose the ball.

Play Out Of Defence, Shorter Passing and Dribble Less to help with retaining the ball. I've only just put Wide instruction on, I found sometimes my middle trio were really bunched together which I didn't want, also want to stretch play a bit to hopefully create some more space for an opening as that is where I'm struggling at the moment.

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So yeah, that is my thinking behind stuff but at the moment I am hardly creating anything and can't seem to progress at all. I'm pretty stuck. I wont go in to the amount of long shots I concede as I know that is a match engine problem (pretty ridiculous though).

Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

 

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I think you are doing well.  The premier league is hard outside of the big six on this version, and you're....well you're Shrewsbury, 3rd season at that level.  I bet if you compare your team to City's, hardly any of your team matches up man for man.  Don't be too harsh on yourself.

On your tactic.  Counter pressing can be quite aggressive and open holes in your set up.  I know Herne79 splits his team into pressing groups with use of PI's but I'm not wholly sold on that.  Pressing is a collective.  You are playing a winger and an inside forward but instructing the team to dribble less.  Dribbling is something both roles should do, against City you might need some individual dribbling brilliance to score on the counterattack and not expect to just pass them off the field.  You can make arguments for and against what you're doing tactically.  However I still bet you don't have the level of players yet.  Get into the Europa League, reputation improves and better targets become available.  Its just around the corner.

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24 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

I think you are doing well.  The premier league is hard outside of the big six on this version, and you're....well you're Shrewsbury, 3rd season at that level.  I bet if you compare your team to City's, hardly any of your team matches up man for man.  Don't be too harsh on yourself.

On your tactic.  Counter pressing can be quite aggressive and open holes in your set up.  I know Herne79 splits his team into pressing groups with use of PI's but I'm not wholly sold on that.  Pressing is a collective.  You are playing a winger and an inside forward but instructing the team to dribble less.  Dribbling is something both roles should do, against City you might need some individual dribbling brilliance to score on the counterattack and not expect to just pass them off the field.  You can make arguments for and against what you're doing tactically.  However I still bet you don't have the level of players yet.  Get into the Europa League, reputation improves and better targets become available.  Its just around the corner.

I'd get on board with that mate and to a certain extent I agree. I don't expect to beat any of the top teams at all but when I have that amount of possession against one of them I'd hope we did something with it now and again. 

The main grip I have is when we play teams around us or below.. this is a game I have just played:

 

20g041g.png

Same problem again, loads of the ball but created pretty much nothing..

 

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There is nothing strikingly wrong in your tactic, based on the screenshot you posted (provided you assigned right players to each role and duty). I guess that a couple of tweaks would improve your team's performance significantly. I don't know which particular tweaks these should be because I don't know your players and what style of football would suit them best, so you'll need to experiment a bit. I agree with Robson 07 on counter-pressing, for example, as well as on the "Dribble less" TI.

And btw, dominating possession is okay, but it makes sense only if that possession is translated into something concrete. Maybe your team is simply not suited for possession-based football. I just say maybe, but you should know better.

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Its hard to comment on a match or a snapshot.  I guess it says you have the ball a lot without either creating or finishing chances.  I think the role you use, DLF (sup) is a 2nd striker role personally.  I'd be more inclined for a complete fwd if you want to play a lone striker on support.  You are also bit safe I'd guess in terms of a measured build up from the back on that mentality.  Maybe something a bit less safe and more adventurous required for a M'Boro at home.

Still say that being a mid table side is difficult as there are times to be attacking and other situations when you need to be more cautious and there are always some teams that are just better no matter what.  Its a frustrating time as a FM manager, you get tactic tweak happy and doubt yourself a lot.  Probably end up ruining a good approach as your patience runs thin.  Get to the end of this season, get the PL money, and try to spend it on some proven talent that actually upgrades the team.  Limit 'wonderkid' shopping a little bit.  Look to improve 3-5 league places a season at a time.

Edited by Robson 07

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Just wondering how you lost the game from cross ? counter ? set piece ? etc 

 

Also , can you show some match stats espensilly how many shot inside the box ( your team and opponent ) 

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The problem is the striker movement. Its a me isssue this year. I have same tactic and same problem with you. The lone striker contribute like nothing in the game. Very static and no movement whichever role you set him. That why you are very hard to do anything in final third

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23 minutes ago, dangngo6 said:

The problem is the striker movement. Its a me isssue this year. I have same tactic and same problem with you. The lone striker contribute like nothing in the game. Very static and no movement whichever role you set him. That why you are very hard to do anything in final third

Whilst this is indeed an area of the match engine SI are working on to improve, it's very far from being an issue that stops a lone striker contributing nothing and having no movement.

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50 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Whilst this is indeed an area of the match engine SI are working on to improve, it's very far from being an issue that stops a lone striker contributing nothing and having no movement.

I believe you, but it's a damn hard for me to make a tactic with a working striker in a role different than advanced forward. Whenever I tried another role for him, he gets like 5 goals a season and 6.5 rating at best. I know I shouldn't focus on one role in a tactic, but I experimented a lot and nothing seems to work. It shouldn't be that difficult.

Edited by buachuta

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2 hours ago, buachuta said:

it's a damn hard for me to make a tactic with a working striker in a role different than advanced forward

It really depends on the type of player whom you play in a role. I don't know whether you play an AF as a lone striker or as part of a two-striker partnership, but most people on this forum have been facing issues when they played a lone striker precisely as an AF (due to his isolation). However, there are tactics where a lone AF can work pretty well, so everything depends on how you fit any player into the overall system. 

I've seen a lot of people complaining about a lack of movement from strikers on support duty as an alleged "ME issue". While I don't want to take issue with these people, I just wanna say I really haven't noticed any problems with the behavior of my strikers (or any other player/role/duty) that I could ascribe to anything other than my wrong tactical decision.

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13 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

There is nothing strikingly wrong in your tactic, based on the screenshot you posted (provided you assigned right players to each role and duty). I guess that a couple of tweaks would improve your team's performance significantly. I don't know which particular tweaks these should be because I don't know your players and what style of football would suit them best, so you'll need to experiment a bit. I agree with Robson 07 on counter-pressing, for example, as well as on the "Dribble less" TI.

And btw, dominating possession is okay, but it makes sense only if that possession is translated into something concrete. Maybe your team is simply not suited for possession-based football. I just say maybe, but you should know better.

The problem I have is what tweaks do I make, I try to tweak things but before you know it you've tweaked things that much you've lost focus on how you wanted to play in the first place. I've tried taking Dribble Less off and Counter-Press but it doesn't seem to improve anything.  I think my team is very capable of a possession style, I have some good players, I can post some of their profiles if you like?

13 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

Its hard to comment on a match or a snapshot.  I guess it says you have the ball a lot without either creating or finishing chances.  I think the role you use, DLF (sup) is a 2nd striker role personally.  I'd be more inclined for a complete fwd if you want to play a lone striker on support.  You are also bit safe I'd guess in terms of a measured build up from the back on that mentality.  Maybe something a bit less safe and more adventurous required for a M'Boro at home.

Still say that being a mid table side is difficult as there are times to be attacking and other situations when you need to be more cautious and there are always some teams that are just better no matter what.  Its a frustrating time as a FM manager, you get tactic tweak happy and doubt yourself a lot.  Probably end up ruining a good approach as your patience runs thin.  Get to the end of this season, get the PL money, and try to spend it on some proven talent that actually upgrades the team.  Limit 'wonderkid' shopping a little bit.  Look to improve 3-5 league places a season at a time.

I have tried using Complete Forward, like I said in the opening post, neither seem to really produce anything of worth and it doesn't seem to matter which role I choose. I have messed about with mentality also, trying higher mentalities when I see the game as a game I should be targeting a win and being more cautious against the bigger teams but everything seems so inconsistent, I'm really stuck on what to do next. My team is pretty strong, I have some great players, there aren't a lot of positions I can improve on until I get in to Europe so I'm pretty happy with my squad.

3 hours ago, dangngo6 said:

The problem is the striker movement. Its a me isssue this year. I have same tactic and same problem with you. The lone striker contribute like nothing in the game. Very static and no movement whichever role you set him. That why you are very hard to do anything in final third

I try not to blame the ME but I have to admit I am finding it very frustrating this year, I just can't anything going no matter what I try.

-----------------------------------------------------------

My form since I created this thread has completely gone, very similar to the previous season where I went on my worst run I've ever been on in any FM:

Last Season:

67018y.png

This Season:

r0nhpj.png

I feel hopeless, I have some great players and my tactic on paper seems like it should work to a certain extent, I've thought about how each player will link with each other.

Nearly every highlight I seem to get in my favour results in a shot getting blocked or a long shot. I hardly ever see any nice football being played. At a loss lads.

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41 minutes ago, BeadyRoller said:

The problem I have is what tweaks do I make, I try to tweak things but before you know it you've tweaked things that much you've lost focus on how you wanted to play in the first place. I've tried taking Dribble Less off and Counter-Press but it doesn't seem to improve anything.  I think my team is very capable of a possession style, I have some good players, I can post some of their profiles if you like?

Absolutely :thup:

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Is there a pattern to when you're conceding goals? Game management is a BIG factor this year; do you often concede first and struggle to catch back up? Do you often take the lead but the AI comeback? Or are the goals coming from everywhere?

Are you changing mentality/tactics in-game to adjust to what the opposition are doing or picking a tactic and going through - I saw you say you change mentalities before a game, but that alone may not be sufficient, in fact simply changing mentalities in-game isn't enough.

Can you give us a screen grab of this screen from your save? Make sure to select your coach from the drop down with the highest 'judging player ability' stat.

image.thumb.png.8aafa6916080c09dc9028b859ecbb919.png

 

Feel like I'm writing/posting this everywhere at the moment so apologies if people are getting irritated, has helped a lot of people already is all - these threads i've written may help with the in-game issues - we always assume it's the core tactic at fault but it may be that your tactic is ok and it's other things letting your side down;

 

Edited by optimusprimal82

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@BeadyRoller there's a few bits that dont quite fit together for me.

1. Possession style but your best player is a winger?  Crosses aren't a good chance, especially if your transitioning the ball slowly (balanced mentality + dribble less + pass shorter + play out of defence). Who's in the box besides the IF-At, ST and maybe the CM-At? Can he do another job well? If not you might have to sacrifice your preferred style or sell him and use funds for a more suitable player.

2. AP sits in the hole, DLP is a bit safer and deeper.  With a DM and a FB-Su that's quite a lot of safe roles and not many getting in or around the box.

3. Sorry if you've answered this already but have you tried a higher mentality? Sacrifice some possession by getting the players to take more risks and play forward more.

I'd look at trying to get a bit more movement in and around the box and less focus on the wide areas.  Can have wide players but I'd want them to come inside or pass inside rather than cross unless I have numbers in the box that have a chance of winning a cross. 

Of course like others have said your doing well so keep at it! A bit of refinement in the tactic and players and you'll take the next step in no time!

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I really think that you are lacking people in the box to take advantage of the crosses from the winger and your left wingback. 

I like your midfield trio, but I would change you striker to a DLF(a) or a PF(a). With a attacking duty he will occupy more the defenders leaving more space to the forwards runs from the IF(a) and the CM(a). 

I would also drop the "wide" instruction. You are saying you players to pass shorter, and already have players with the PI to stay wider, so I don't think you need to stretch the width even more. 

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On 09/02/2019 at 13:20, Experienced Defender said:

Absolutely :thup:

Centre Backs

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w2m5gk.png

Fullbacks

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303igs0.png

Defensive Midfielder

24yah6w.png

Central Midfielders

16ishp5.png

351ec29.png

35lya39.png

97plbt.png

 

Wide Players

hwd5r8.png

ri6a1h.png

29lg179.png

Strikers

hwmzap.png

5k3ou1.png

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On 09/02/2019 at 13:21, optimusprimal82 said:

Is there a pattern to when you're conceding goals? Game management is a BIG factor this year; do you often concede first and struggle to catch back up? Do you often take the lead but the AI comeback? Or are the goals coming from everywhere?

Are you changing mentality/tactics in-game to adjust to what the opposition are doing or picking a tactic and going through - I saw you say you change mentalities before a game, but that alone may not be sufficient, in fact simply changing mentalities in-game isn't enough.

Can you give us a screen grab of this screen from your save? Make sure to select your coach from the drop down with the highest 'judging player ability' stat.

image.thumb.png.8aafa6916080c09dc9028b859ecbb919.png

 

Feel like I'm writing/posting this everywhere at the moment so apologies if people are getting irritated, has helped a lot of people already is all - these threads i've written may help with the in-game issues - we always assume it's the core tactic at fault but it may be that your tactic is ok and it's other things letting your side down;

 

 

v3k42d.png

Here is a screen of goal locations. I often do concede first and find myself chasing the game but also find I get pegged back pretty quickly if I take the lead. Most highlights for the opponent result in goals, when I have one it almost always ends up in a blocked shot or a long range one. It's hard to understand if I am getting the mentality right, when I score first I tend to carry on the same as I don't want to disrupt something that may be working. Maybe that is wrong?

2ytv69l.jpg

There is a screen of what you asked for, as you can see, I have some decent players, look at my above post as well for an in depth look at them.

I've had a look of that thread you linked and it's really great, I will have a proper read of it tonight so thanks for that.

On 09/02/2019 at 13:38, summatsupeer said:

@BeadyRoller there's a few bits that dont quite fit together for me.

1. Possession style but your best player is a winger?  Crosses aren't a good chance, especially if your transitioning the ball slowly (balanced mentality + dribble less + pass shorter + play out of defence). Who's in the box besides the IF-At, ST and maybe the CM-At? Can he do another job well? If not you might have to sacrifice your preferred style or sell him and use funds for a more suitable player.

2. AP sits in the hole, DLP is a bit safer and deeper.  With a DM and a FB-Su that's quite a lot of safe roles and not many getting in or around the box.

3. Sorry if you've answered this already but have you tried a higher mentality? Sacrifice some possession by getting the players to take more risks and play forward more.

I'd look at trying to get a bit more movement in and around the box and less focus on the wide areas.  Can have wide players but I'd want them to come inside or pass inside rather than cross unless I have numbers in the box that have a chance of winning a cross. 

Of course like others have said your doing well so keep at it! A bit of refinement in the tactic and players and you'll take the next step in no time!

1. I play with a winger because I do like the idea of having width still and my thinking was with the Inside Forward on attack coming in from the other flank as well as my striker it would create some great chances. Also he is the stand out player in my team so I think it's a good idea to make the most out of him. I suppose I could make him an inside forward with a stay wider shout?

2. That is a good shout and definitely something I could try, I was thinking that myself.

3. The reason I am playing lower mentalities is something I read in @herne79's thread that I'd never thought of before. I've always struggled with the lone striker being isolated in this formation, it never hit me that playing with lower tempos gives the players more time to join the attack which in theory would maybe not make my striker so isolated. I suppose I could put a Lower Tempo instruction though and bump up the mentality.

I think I will look to give my winger a different role like we discussed above to see how that works, my thinking was to replicate the Sane role sort of, he plays really wide but still gets involved with all the build up.

Thanks for your encouragement, I think I'm doing ok, just feel like I shouldn't be going on these huge runs where I can't buy a win which is happening way to often.

On 09/02/2019 at 14:13, Keyzer Soze said:

I really think that you are lacking people in the box to take advantage of the crosses from the winger and your left wingback. 

I like your midfield trio, but I would change you striker to a DLF(a) or a PF(a). With a attacking duty he will occupy more the defenders leaving more space to the forwards runs from the IF(a) and the CM(a). 

I would also drop the "wide" instruction. You are saying you players to pass shorter, and already have players with the PI to stay wider, so I don't think you need to stretch the width even more. 

I've tried playing with an attack duty on the DLF with no real success either, it's frustrating not being able to get the striker working no matter what role or duty I try. Yeah I think the wide instruction just contradict what I'm trying to do a bit but I found my midfield were so bunched together and weren't offering a passing outlet to my defenders so tried to work around it by adding that shout.

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44 minutes ago, BeadyRoller said:

1. I play with a winger because I do like the idea of having width still and my thinking was with the Inside Forward on attack coming in from the other flank as well as my striker it would create some great chances. Also he is the stand out player in my team so I think it's a good idea to make the most out of him. I suppose I could make him an inside forward with a stay wider shout?

Stretching opponents with width is good but the end product needs to fit with the tactic.  This is a limitation of the wide forward positions (AML / AMR), they're all quite specialized roles whilst wide midfielders (ML / MR) have the generic Wide Midfielder role that you can customise with whatever PI's you like.

Having the winger try back post crosses to the IF-A is a good idea, but really thats more a quick attack move when entering the final third before opponents get back in position rather than a slower patient possession build up camping opponents into there final third.

He's right footed and looking at his attributes he is quite specialized so he won't be as effective trying to cut inside on his weaker foot plus doesn't have the passing+vision.  If you want to use him i'd look at how you can attack quicker and get more bodies in the box for his crosses.

44 minutes ago, BeadyRoller said:

3. The reason I am playing lower mentalities is something I read in @herne79's thread that I'd never thought of before. I've always struggled with the lone striker being isolated in this formation, it never hit me that playing with lower tempos gives the players more time to join the attack which in theory would maybe not make my striker so isolated. I suppose I could put a Lower Tempo instruction though and bump up the mentality.

Yeah if you look at the Controlled Possession, Tiki-Taka and Vertical Tiki-Taka they all use a lower or much lower tempo on Standard or Positive mentality.  This gives risk taking and a preference to play forward but time to pick the best option and let players make moves.  It can still produce 1 touch football when needed but players aren't rushed as often.

Whatever role Central midfielders have they will help transition the ball, even MEZ-A or CM-A won't really break forward into AMC type areas until the ball is into the attacking phase so I think the CM pair can be quite aggressive if that fits the style and ball movement.

44 minutes ago, BeadyRoller said:

I think I will look to give my winger a different role like we discussed above to see how that works, my thinking was to replicate the Sane role sort of, he plays really wide but still gets involved with all the build up.

I think Sane is both footed and more a Wide Midfielder - Attack (with a few PIs like Dribble More) in FM terms.  I've not looked at him in FM this year but would guess he's a more all round player than yours.

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@BeadyRoller I've browsed through the screenshots, and you really have good players (though forwards are slightly better than defenders on average). I'll analyze your squad in more detail later and tell you more about my tactical recommendations :thup:

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Okay, after analysis of your squad (from screenshots), I can agree with you that a possession-based style of football would suit your team better than some fast or counter-attacking game, and not because you like Pep's style, but rather because of relative weakness of your defense (meaning you should not expose them to having too much job).

So here is what my primary tactic with your players would basically look like...

Roles and duties:

DLFsu

IFsu                                    IFat

DLPsu      MEZsu

HB

FBat     CDde    CDde      WBde

GK/SKde

The players and PIs I would use in this system:

LB/FBat - Lewis (PI - stay wider)

LCB/CDde - Torunarigha (PI - take fewer risks)

RCB/CDde - Markovic (PI - take fewer risks) or Alvarez (when played, he can be used as a BPD, though not necessarily)

RB/WBde - Deal (PI - sit narrower)

DM/HB - Tousart (PIs - take fewer risks, mark tighter, dribble less)

LCM/DLPsu - Martinez (mark tighter) or Pawlowski (in rotation)

RCM/MEZsu - Forman or Murgia (in rotation, but I'd rather use Murgia as a BBM than MEZ) (PI - mark tighter)

AML/IFsu - Gouri or Merlo (PI - sit narrower)

AMR/IFat - Woodburn or Brewster (in rotation)

ST/DLFsu - Brewster (PI - roam from position) or Navaro (though you can also use Navaro as a PF on support, PI - move into channels, roam from position)

Player instruction for GK - take fewer risks

Team instructions:

Mentality - Balanced or Positive (depending on the match or situation)

In possession - shorter passing, play out of defense, work ball into box, low (or whipped) crosses

In transition - counter-attack and distribute to CBs and FBs (roll it out); you can occasionally use counter-press as well, but not necessarily and not in every match

Out of possession - higher DL, higher LOE, stay on feet, offside trap (alternatively, you can set the LCB on cover duty if you don't want to use the offside trap)

NOTE: If you find that higher DL makes you vulnerable to balls over the top by opposition, you can manually reduce pressing intensity for defenders and DM/HB in their PIs, so that they would keep their defensive shape better.

Team instructions you can occasionally employ when you believe they would improve your team's performance based on what you see happening on the pitch - be more expressive, slightly wider attacking width (can be helpful when trying to break down ultra-defensive opposition)

That's it in principle. Any questions?

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