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Developing my 4123DM Wide ("Tiki-Taka")


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2 hours ago, Exius said:

100% agree. Even though I try to build possession tactics myself, I often find this a waste of time. ME was initially based on british football and it was not about possession. That's why crosses work best in this game. Of course the game have made huge progress over the years - ten years ago it was almost impossible to make possession tactic and score goals, and now you can at least find the right balance between possession and attack, but still it's very hard and uneffective in this game. Possession football requires a lot of off-the-ball movement and intelligence from players, which, obviously, virtual players lack. It's much easier just run and cross, run and cross. To build an effective possession tactic you should find a perfect balance through all the tactical settings (most of them unobvious) and still one slight unobvious change can make huge difference. Moreover, we have artificially decreased shots accuracy (I found somewhere in this forum somebody from SI wrote they had to do it to make scores more realistic), so, even if you succeed to get both possession and shots you can often see having 60+% possession, 20+ shots and no goals, because most of them are either off the goal or straight to the keeper (sadly that doesn't applies to the AI team - they need just one or two counter-attacks to score). So, you need a lot of luck and countless tries to build something effective with a possession in mind, and I find this process a bit masochistic - you try and struggle, don't give up and try again, struggle again and so on... That's why I agree, it's a complete waste of time.

PS One funny thing. The most scoring games I had were when my team struggled in possession. I mean, usually I have 60-65% possession and score a couple of goals per game. But in the games where I scored 4-5 goals I had only 50-55% possession, so the game was almost equal. The game itself tells us that possession is not the best way to play.

Ive tried countless things over and over for the last few days i play fm on average 5 or 6 hours a day repeating the same game as i think its a good game to test, and im itching close but yet far at the same time sometimes i win but 1 of the goals is either a free kick in a 2 1 game or a corner etc... its really frustating seeing great players like paqueta, suso etc making such mistakes that enfuriates me in such a way. Im a really agressive parsion when im passionate about something and this is the game i love. But ill keep trying until it works but i dont want to try something that is not possible and that worries me

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32 minutes ago, Strikerir said:

i win but 1 of the goals is either a free kick in a 2 1 game or a corner etc...

to be fair on this, real life quota fpr goals from set pieces is around 30%. But i can understand what you are saying. Set pieces are very important on fm19 indeed.

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14 hours ago, Strikerir said:

But ill keep trying until it works but i dont want to try something that is not possible and that worries me

It depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you are trying to get IRL match stats of teams playing tiki-taka or make your team play like them - it's not possible. What is possible - to get 55-60% possession and 2-3 goals every match, but it's very difficult and it's not the best (and the easiest) way to win in this game. One major thing which makes it as difficult is that many TI and PI are very unobvious. For example in previous FM iterations cautious or defensive mentality resulted less risky passes. In FM 2019 it makes your defenders make more long balls forward. The same applies if you set "Take fewer risks" PI for your DCs - they consider it too risky to make short pass to a teammate if there is at least one opponent in 50 m radius, so they just shoot the ball long forward and lose possesion.

Edited by Exius
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I want to make an observation here.  strikerir and exius, what you are doing is giving each other confirmation bias.

"This is next to impossible".

"Yeh I agree, crosses work best".

"It worries me I'm trying to do something not possible".

"It's very difficult and not the best way to win in this game".

You're agreeing with each other and so reaffirming each other's fears.  But the irony is you are both typing this in a thread which demonstrates in a large amount of detail how to go about doing exactly what you say is not possible / very difficult.

Now, strikerir, replaying the same match over and over with different tactical tweaks each time won't help you.  Do you actually understand the changes you are making each time, or is it just random until you happen to hit upon something which works?  And what happens the next time you come up against a team you lose to?  And the time after that?  All you are doing is (randomly?) finding a way to beat one particular team, whereas the important part is to actually have a sound base tactic which you can then tweak (if needed) for specific issues you may come across.  And you get a sound base tactic from playing against several different teams to understand patterns of play and how players behave in different situations.  Look at the part on page two where I reveal my base tactic and how I blanked some things out because those parts may change for different matches or different players used.

I'll also add this thread is not the only way to create an effective possession system.  If it's not working for you then try something else.  Start with the default system built into the game if you like.  Or watch some of rashidi's videos.  Or download a high possession tactic from somewhere else and adapt it.  There's more than one way to do what you are after, so find the way which you find most effective.

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Even if it's very hard, borderline impossible to play some brand styles of football, although only according to people that don't know how to play FM, it's the difference in real life between a kick and rush afficionado like Sérgio Conceição (Porto's coach) or a Big Sam and a "finesse" coach like Pep Guardiola or Jurgen Klopp. Some people just go the easy route of puting two fast forwards checking the offside trap and the rest of the team bombing away balls up the field, even when in their own penalty box. Maybe you will succeed, maybe you won't because when the opposition cuts the space and you insist in that type of plays (every one of your posts have me assume that you're very inflexible), your style will come out as very rudimentary. 

Bottom line and I'm going to talk for everyone that's really into this style, don't come here like a savior when all you have to suggest is a total rebrand of style and a 180 degree turn from the actual goal we pursue. Many peole like me don't go for the fast results just because, many people like me don't pursue wins dropped from the sky not knowing what happened. And last, don't come here with that BS when you don't know nothing about nothing.

Edited by Razor940
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7 hours ago, herne79 said:

I want to make an observation here.  strikerir and exius, what you are doing is giving each other confirmation bias.

"This is next to impossible".

"Yeh I agree, crosses work best".

"It worries me I'm trying to do something not possible".

"It's very difficult and not the best way to win in this game".

You're agreeing with each other and so reaffirming each other's fears.  But the irony is you are both typing this in a thread which demonstrates in a large amount of detail how to go about doing exactly what you say is not possible / very difficult.

Now, strikerir, replaying the same match over and over with different tactical tweaks each time won't help you.  Do you actually understand the changes you are making each time, or is it just random until you happen to hit upon something which works?  And what happens the next time you come up against a team you lose to?  And the time after that?  All you are doing is (randomly?) finding a way to beat one particular team, whereas the important part is to actually have a sound base tactic which you can then tweak (if needed) for specific issues you may come across.  And you get a sound base tactic from playing against several different teams to understand patterns of play and how players behave in different situations.  Look at the part on page two where I reveal my base tactic and how I blanked some things out because those parts may change for different matches or different players used.

I'll also add this thread is not the only way to create an effective possession system.  If it's not working for you then try something else.  Start with the default system built into the game if you like.  Or watch some of rashidi's videos.  Or download a high possession tactic from somewhere else and adapt it.  There's more than one way to do what you are after, so find the way which you find most effective.

i understand this thread gives great detail on creating a good possesion tactic and ive read it a couple times and ive read everything. And ive learned a lot but still its not working for me. And ive seen my players doing such tings that drive me insane. And ive made something decent but still inconsistent. Im not trying to demoralize no one in fact this tread is my favorite to read but in this 3.5 match engine many people cant get it like they used to do in other iterations of the game

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You know, there is no set rule that everyone should be able to make a good tactic. Maybe some people can't make it work and that's it. Every FM edition people have been struggling with making a good possession tactic. That's why there are so many threads about it over the years and people still can't make it work. There was a thread about Barca tactic since 2011 that keeps popping up once in awhile.....and FM has changed so much since then, but people keep reviving it. So it's not just FM19 and 19.3.5 ME.

There is only so much one can help and there is only so much one can learn. If it doesn't work, no big deal, try something else. Not every one can be Pep Guardiola. :) 

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Despite the negativity clouding this thread towards the back end of it, I must say this has been probably the most influential thread for this year's edition of the game for the way I play. Using principles from the thread I have even managed to get a surprising 2-0 win against PSG as Atleti (only took over as manager at the start of this season) where half of my starting 11 were youngsters due to a heavily congested fixture list and almost no squad depth due to no funds to make transfers (griezmann got a £800,000 p/w deal before I joined, go figure :idiot:)

image.thumb.png.811c9c9d8e79c8fb6441b3028034d92f.png

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16 minutes ago, Strikerir said:

Sorry for bringing negativati to this thread. Im not saying this thread is bad. Hell this is the only thread ive been active on and believe me ive learned a lot from it. I just had to post my worries

We got through it, we had a discussion.  No worries :).

As we've said, If you can get help from this thread then great, but equally if you get inspiration from other means then also great.  There is always more than one way to achieve the same goal.

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6 minutes ago, herne79 said:

We got through it, we had a discussion.  No worries :).

As we've said, If you can get help from this thread then great, but equally if you get inspiration from other means then also great.  There is always more than one way to achieve the same goal.

Yea this thread gave inspiration for other tactics. I wanna make mourinho's RM type tactic as i am a sucker for fast counter attacking and ive build a good one but my only problem is the wingers. example if i put them on the AM slot on support they will not rush, on attack they wont track back. On the midfield slot on attack they kinda do what i want but still not perfect. I know this isn't the thread for that , but if someone wants to give me advice on that it would be apriciated

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6 minutes ago, Strikerir said:

Yea this thread gave inspiration for other tactics. I wanna make mourinho's RM type tactic as i am a sucker for fast counter attacking and ive build a good one but my only problem is the wingers. example if i put them on the AM slot on support they will not rush, on attack they wont track back. On the midfield slot on attack they kinda do what i want but still not perfect. I know this isn't the thread for that , but if someone wants to give me advice on that it would be apriciated

You could try experimenting with different PIs on the wingers. In my tactic I'm finding a good amount of success with IF-S with 'get further forward' added as a PI, for me it really bridges the gap between an attack and support duty in terms of attacking movement well without sacrificing defensive responsibilities.

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Guys ive finally made a tactic that im happy with i went for a man city replicatio complettly different of what ive posted some time ago. A little backstory im a liverpool fan soo ive watched a lot of man city especialy in the final end of the season where i was dying for them to loose but spoiler alert they didnt *sad noises*. Soo the advice is going to be something that is already in the thread but i have something new. Soo this is super important, make sure you have someone attacking the box like midfielders in fact my two midfielders are on attack it sounds crazy but i needed them to attack the half spaces and stay there and attack the box at all times, on too the new stuff ive experimented and sounds crazy but it changed the tactic and made so much better. If you are strugling that your players dont make trough balls and they just pass around until they lose it stupidly, try this... (i know it will sound crazy and not very possesion like) make your front line make more risky passes and direct. they will not always do that and lose possesion, but they will now going to look for someone making a run and that forces your attacking players to make runs even if they are on support because they know that someone is looking for them. And believe me if you have good players with the right vision and decision making , this will be a gamechanger for you. Thank you to this thread to make things clearer for me and help me on something that i tought wasnt possible. I dont get 100% wins but i get something that satisfeis me :D

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1 hour ago, Strikerir said:

Guys ive finally made a tactic that im happy with i went for a man city replicatio complettly different of what ive posted some time ago.

Great job! Glad you finally got it right!

And I have a problem of another kind. I quite often concede in the late game. I just can't make my team keep the ball in the late 15-20 minutes of the game if I'm winning. It's OK if I'm leading by 2 goals. But when there is only one goal margin - the ending is always very nervous. Usually when you dominate possession the whole game, the opposition sits back very deep and narrow. Of course your players got tired and you want them to take fewer risks so late in the game and just keep the ball to make sure the game ends in your way. What is the most logical way to do it? Lower mentality to catious or defensive, increase time wasting, decrease passing length and tempo or/and add instruction "take fewer risks", right? Wrong! This setup makes my defenders bang long balls forward just giving up possession. You might say: "they see it as the only safe option when the opposition closes them down", but I watch full matches and I see there are plenty safe options for a short pass - another DC, FB, keeper, even DLP coming closer to get the ball. No! We'll shoot the ball forward straight to the opposition. That's much safer! It wouldn't be such catastrophic if they at least tried to get it to the lonely striker staying forward. But they are shooting the long ball miles away from him - to the opposition defenders or even the keeper, literally giving possession away. So the opposition makes more attacks in these 15-20 minutes than during the previous 70, just because I give the ball to them.

And if I don't lower mentality and try to keep the possession offensively till the final whistle, I usually concede at least one goal from a counter, because my players are tired and the opposition starts making more runs forward.

God, why they removed "Retain possesion" instruction and made it all such unobvious! That's driving me crazy. All I want in these final minutes is just to pass the ball around very cautiously, without creating chances or making long balls, or taking any risks at all. Just pass the ball sideways and backwards if the opposition arises. And the only TIs which should do it actually do the opposite. 

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I'm quite unsure on a few things. Imagine your team is taking a lot of unnessecary risks in terms of crosses and (long)shots. How do you actually work on this? How do you know where to adjust? Is it Tempo/decisionmaking, (individual) Mentality, or maybe is WBIB the Solution?

What do you think about shorter passing + wider attacking widt, vice versa. Many people say its counterproductive but i feel like its not because i still get good results playing with shorter passing and wider att. width.

 

 

 

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I think its my turn to have a bit of a tantrum.

Really struggling to get a decent possession based 4-3-3 or whatever the game calls it going. We either have possession and no penetration, no possession but penetration but as a result no control over games, or none of either. Ive had a save file corrupt (incidentally where I got harshly sacked from Brighton playing possession, landed the Napoli job set up a system that I didnt like but got steadyish regularish possesion but ultimately collapsed), got sacked from Derby, gave up with Genk and got bored with Ajax. Im sure you can see a trend. The idea fails and I either get sacked or have a fit.

Now Ive started with Fiorentina as there squad seems relatively well suited to this, Im currently in the late stages of preseason and, shock horror, the systems sh*t. I really can't see how to make it work, and I know its preseason but its one of them when you know it wont work you know. So some help would be appreciated.

I won't be providing screen shots of my tactic just yet as there are no screen shots to provide as nothing is decided as yet, no TIs or roles or duties or anything. So theres no point just yet, there might be eventually and then Ill post away. So as for what Im after its fairly straightforward, a 4-1-2-3 DM wide that controls games, has decent amounts of possession but also penetration. I want goals, excitement and as a result possession. As for my squad, my star players are probably Simeone, Chiesa and Benassi.

Simeone is a really good goalscorer. Physically hes either 13 or 14 for all attributes but natural fitness (12). Mentally hes got all the stats of an allround goalscoring striker baring probably 11 vision and flair, hes also braveish (13), a great anticipater (16), a workhorse (15 work rate) and off the ball (15). Technically hes a great goal getter (15 finishing, 17 heading and 13 dribbling and first touch), however he cant pass amazingly (12). So simply the only things he can't do is pass (12 passing, 11 vision). As a result I'm leaning towards more of a solely goalscoring striker, focusing on spearing the system and occupying centre halves in order to allow the more creative players to do the exciting stuff rather than joining in himself. But anythings an option.

Chiesa is literally amazing. There's no role out wide he can't play. I know I'm not providing much information on him, but he could successfully play a winger on the right, IF on the left or a raumdeuter, trequartista or an AP on either side. Easily. Im leaning towards either a winger or AP-A on the right, but I'm open to change that, very open.

Finally Benassi is a great all round midfielder. Mentally hes class, physically hes class and technically unless you ask him to dribble (10). The only roles I wouldn't use him as are a mezzala cause he can't dribble, or a BWM as it wastes his attacking qualities or as the main holding player. I'm leaning towards some kind of playmaker duty (probably AP or RPM as I want him in and around the box) or a box to box, but yet again any ideas are good ideas.

Transfer wise Im signing Kevin Mbabu to play right back, he could play any role. And Im after a defensive midfielder, currently Im leaning towards Tonali to play probably DLP-D/S or a regista, but that could yet change to more of a bruiser of a player.

So yeah, any advice as to how to go about building the sort of system Ive spoke about with the players I've spoke about would be more than welcome. I'm literally open to anything and I'll answer any questions anyone may have. Also, apologies I seem to have written quite alot, way more than I intended to, but it all felt relevant.

Cheers in advance

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47 minutes ago, OJ403 said:

 We either have possession and no penetration, no possession 

Try have your attacking players on risky and direct passes . i know it sounds counter productive but they wont always waste possesion, instead they are looking for runs and your front will know that they have to make runs

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I'm able to get a great dynamic possession based game at home (using a number of principles from @herne79 ) where i really dominate teams. I don't create 25 chances, maybe around 15/16, but often win 3 or 4-0 with Sevilla in Spain. Barely concede a goal, play good football, around 60% possession and always feel in control of games. I play 4411 (FM 18)

                   SK s

FB a  BPD c CD def IWB def

WM s BWM def MEZ s W att

                   T att

                   F9

More closing down

Slightly higher D line

Fluid/standard

Mixed passing

Dribble less

Work ball into box

Prevent short GK

I have a good team so mixed passing, I leave it to their decisions. Fluid helps keep the lines compact, press as a unit and have loads of passing options. I don't need to play any more risky than standard, in fact on more positive mentalities I feel we lose something.

Loads of variety going forward.

I have a problem away though, cannot control games using this system like I can at home.

Edited by bamb00zle
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My away struggles are putting our UCL spot at risk, in La Liga 70% of sides turn out a 4231 which can marmalise 442 or 4411 due to sheer numbers overwhelming a back 4 with no DM as cover.

@herne79makes a very good point, a tactic is never one size fits all and why we need to think about principles and apply them but only to the squad we have. I initially went for 4123 to solve my struggles but there was no penetration at all upfront. My team is of similar quality to an Arsenal for example, not elite but very good. I went

SK s

IWB def CD def CD def IWB def

DLP def/ANC

IF s   APs (roam) MEZ att IF S

CF s/DFLs

PROS - lots of possession, solid it at the back. 

CONS - Zero penetration upfront, lone forward way too isolated, long range pot shots due to no one breaking the lines.

Why was this happening? I was happy with the possession and the movement until the final third. Why? Well we don't have the PIs to make that happen. I have players who can play IF but they don't readily come inside or go beyond. My cms don't have get forward or get into the area either and my no.9 doesn't have come deep to get the ball.

The thinking of course was that the DLF would come deep, the MEZ going forward to support, the AP roaming around and while I saw that to an extent it really wasn't working.

In summary, my squad isn't suited to that formation so you have to think of your own set up suiting the players you have.

I have - great wingers, a hard working technical midfield, industrious full backs and clever front men and a great AMC in Anderson Talisca. 4411 gives us loads of penetration but in deeper lying formations we can't get the incision I require.

So I'm looking at a 4141 away from home but again, penetration may be an issue. I'm choosing 4141 to combat the multitude of 4231s we come up against.

                   SK s

FB a  BPD c CD def FB s or IWB Def 

                  HB

WM s CM att  MEZ s  W att

                  DLF s

I want variation in attack - the FB att overlapping, CM att supprting the DLF, MEZ operating in the half spaces behind the winger and coming into the box for chances. The DLF holding it up and waiting for runners.

In defence, to combat the wingers, the HB will tuck in and thus creating 3 CBs to deal with the wide threat, pushing the FBs to close down the winger. The WM will track back, The HB could be changed to an anchor to isolate lone strikers. If the AMR and AML are IFs, the IWB may be a better option to use.

I'm a stickler for defensive solidity but also need a threat going forward. I'm wanting to stick to possession principles, dribble less but still have mixed passes and a normal (maybe higher) tempo (?) to get counters going and not be too one dimensional. High pressing, as I want us to control and be on front foot.

So I'm still thinking of a fluid shape and possibly standard/balanced risk. No need to go too cautious as it's already a bottom heavy setup. Flexible might set up better for counters? Like I said, I want possession football but not for the sake of it, at least in away games where sides will have a go more.

If anyone has read this far into my ramblings, am I on the right lines do you think?

Edited by bamb00zle
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53 minutes ago, bamb00zle said:

So I'm still thinking of a fluid shape and possibly standard/balanced risk. No need to go too cautious as it's already a bottom heavy setup. Flexible might set up better for counters?

A quick question - are you playing FM18 (or earlier)?  If you're playing FM19 your "shape" is completely irrelevant - the shape mentioned on screen is simply a product of how many support duty players you have.  So for FM19, concentrate on your player roles and duties.

One thing I will mention in general: I have a Valencia save going at present where I use a slightly tweaked version of FM19's default "control/possession" tactic (4231).  I often come up against parked buses, or at least teams playing quite defensively (both home and away).  When this happens, I keep an eye on their formation and how my AMC is performing.  If he's struggling, especially against formations using a player at DMC, a simple change of moving my AMC back to the MC position can sometimes help.  I give him an attack duty (he's usually a support duty at AMC) so he'll still get forward to support, but a deeper starting position can give him that extra bit of space he sometimes needs which can also have a knock on effect to my other forward players.

The issue you are having (home vs away) perhaps has less to do with location but rather teams playing cautiously.  When that happens, space in the final third is at a premium and passing the ball around a lot in front of their defence (work ball into box) can be useless.  Rather than making massive changes as you are proposing, have a think about small tweaks to help free up space (eg., AMC > MC), maybe stretching the pitch (width), adding creativity (sub on a flair player or a TI), increasing penetration (roles, duties, TI) and so on.

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Hello,

I've been playing around with this system , whath do you guys think of the role and duties?

yw1C1tf.jpg

My ideia is: 

inverted wingbacks to help the transition on possesion until they enter the last third of the pitch, then the TI overlap left/right make them an usual WB suporting the team on the flanks. This make one block of 8 players , GK / defensive players and the midfield trio , this  in game and even on real life is very hard to beat and press,

Regista: The heart of the team, initialy my idea was to pick the DLP(s) for this position, but the ingame description made my mind, More agressive deep lying playmaker ideal for possesion oriented team that press high on the field, this is perfect for me.

In real life Fernandinho at Man City he plays really high sometimes close to the oposition area  and this role enables that as i was able to see in game.

But have a con , on game this role doesn't have tackling needed for this position???!!  On other versions of the game when you select a regista the game automatically changes one of the midfieldrs to a defend duty. This year that doesn't happen.

How can i have a player like "Pirlo" and don't have a Gattusso or a Ambrosini to do the hard work? How can i replicate Guardiola tactic without 2 central midfielders that don't make foward runs without ball.

DqW1UQAX0AALciC?format=jpg&name=large

Ignore all five Man city players close to the ball and look to David Silva and De Bruyne position, How can i achive that.

For me the answer was MC(a) on both players 

These 2 players exploit the space beetwen the center backs and the wing backs like this

19403308_10209197419353269_615860032_o.p

city-like-to-press-on-with-5.png?ssl=1

The result:

https://gyazo.com/7db16aeb3c2f1c1dd40106f942c07ae9

 

Wingers: 

They provide width , i usually play them with inverted foot but sometimes if a rigth footed player can't play on left he still plays .

Striker:

 Here i've been doing some trials , sometimes DFL(s) , sometimes F9 , and now CF(s) none of them seems to be so prolific like aguero but still making 15 20 goals a season.

Some results:

g0z63bC.jpg

This season:

5yLZCCC.jpg

Last Season:

dvFkfcq.jpg

 

 

Have fun guys, and sorry for my rudimentar english .

 

Edited by kun^^
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37 minutes ago, kun^^ said:

Hello,

I've been playing around with this system , whath do you guys think of the role and duties?

yw1C1tf.jpg

My ideia is: 

inverted wingbacks to help the transition on possesion until they enter the last third of the pitch, then the TI overlap left/right make them an usual WB suporting the team on the flanks. This make one block of 8 players , GK / defensive players and the midfield trio , this  in game and even on real life is very hard to beat and press,

Regista: The heart of the team, initialy my idea was to pick the DLP(s) for this position, but the ingame description made my mind, More agressive deep lying playmaker ideal for possesion oriented team that press high on the field, this is perfect for me.

In real life Fernandinho at Man City he plays really high sometimes close to the oposition area  and this role enables that as i was able to see in game.

But have a con , on game this role doesn't have tackling needed for this position???!!  On other versions of the game when you select a regista the game automatically changes one of the midfieldrs to a defend duty. This year that doesn't happen.

How can i have a player like "Pirlo" and don't have a Gattusso or a Ambrosini to do the hard work? How can i replicate Guardiola tactic without 2 central midfielders that don't make foward runs without ball.

DqW1UQAX0AALciC?format=jpg&name=large

Ignore all five Man city players close to the ball and look to David Silva and De Bruyne position, How can i achive that.

For me the answer was MC(a) on both players 

These 2 players exploit the space beetwen the center backs and the wing backs like this

19403308_10209197419353269_615860032_o.p

city-like-to-press-on-with-5.png?ssl=1

The result:

https://gyazo.com/7db16aeb3c2f1c1dd40106f942c07ae9

 

Wingers: 

They provide width , i usually play them with inverted foot but sometimes if a rigth footed player can't play on left he still plays .

Striker:

 Here i've been doing some trials , sometimes DFL(s) , sometimes F9 , and now CF(s) none of them seems to be so prolific like aguero but still making 15 20 goals a season.

Some results:

g0z63bC.jpg

This season:

5yLZCCC.jpg

Last Season:

dvFkfcq.jpg

 

 

Have fun guys, and sorry for my rudimentar english .

 

What player instruction do you use????

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11 minutos atrás, Scutinio disse:

It"s work with underdog team?

Yes it can, but you have to find the right players .

And of course this works for me, in this save, on a save with Valencia, and Benfica. But this isn't a tactic share thread .

 You can see for yourself the results i'm having

 

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Edited by kun^^
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2 hours ago, kun^^ said:

Hello,

I've been playing around with this system , whath do you guys think of the role and duties?

yw1C1tf.jpg

My ideia is: 

inverted wingbacks to help the transition on possesion until they enter the last third of the pitch, then the TI overlap left/right make them an usual WB suporting the team on the flanks. This make one block of 8 players , GK / defensive players and the midfield trio , this  in game and even on real life is very hard to beat and press,

Regista: The heart of the team, initialy my idea was to pick the DLP(s) for this position, but the ingame description made my mind, More agressive deep lying playmaker ideal for possesion oriented team that press high on the field, this is perfect for me.

In real life Fernandinho at Man City he plays really high sometimes close to the oposition area  and this role enables that as i was able to see in game.

But have a con , on game this role doesn't have tackling needed for this position???!!  On other versions of the game when you select a regista the game automatically changes one of the midfieldrs to a defend duty. This year that doesn't happen.

How can i have a player like "Pirlo" and don't have a Gattusso or a Ambrosini to do the hard work? How can i replicate Guardiola tactic without 2 central midfielders that don't make foward runs without ball.

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Ignore all five Man city players close to the ball and look to David Silva and De Bruyne position, How can i achive that.

For me the answer was MC(a) on both players 

These 2 players exploit the space beetwen the center backs and the wing backs like this

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The result:

https://gyazo.com/7db16aeb3c2f1c1dd40106f942c07ae9

 

Wingers: 

They provide width , i usually play them with inverted foot but sometimes if a rigth footed player can't play on left he still plays .

Striker:

 Here i've been doing some trials , sometimes DFL(s) , sometimes F9 , and now CF(s) none of them seems to be so prolific like aguero but still making 15 20 goals a season.

Some results:

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This season:

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Last Season:

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Have fun guys, and sorry for my rudimentar english .

 

I like the idea of implementing the central overload with the 2 CM-a, and it made me about how this can be implemented in different ways. For example in my 4123DM I'm using an IF-s and AP-s that both sit narrower, and using WB-s on both wings to provide the width, then 2 CM-s that are more static but are very technical players so contribute well in the final third. This ends up creating a similar look to the screenshots of man city but just with different positions taking up the different spaces in the offensive organisation.

Also, about the tactic itself I would expect this typically works better when the opposition is already forced to play deeper and is great for breaking a deep block like man city are forced to do in most games. Do you adapt this at all when facing stronger opposition who could exploit the lack of solidarity in the midfield e.g. during defensive transitions?

Edited by wixxi
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1 hora atrás, wixxi disse:

I like the idea of implementing the central overload with the 2 CM-a, and it made me about how this can be implemented in different ways. For example in my 4123DM I'm using an IF-s and AP-s that both sit narrower, and using WB-s on both wings to provide the width, then 2 CM-s that are more static but are very technical players so contribute well in the final third. This ends up creating a similar look to the screenshots of man city but just with different positions taking up the different spaces in the offensive organisation.

Also, about the tactic itself I would expect this typically works better when the opposition is already forced to play deeper and is great for breaking a deep block like man city are forced to do in most games. Do you adapt this at all when facing stronger opposition who could exploit the lack of solidarity in the midfield e.g. during defensive transitions?

In terns of possession against weaker teams with low block its amazing. But sometimes its hard to score a goal. But in real life that happens too. Against  stronger sides this tactic pays off. Maybe because they dont defende so deep and try to build from the back. As an example, in my first year on champions league i went to the final. On other save i won it with valencia easy with few transfers. 

The DC  on this tactic need to be good for sure , but to answer your question , no i dont adapt against stronger sides, i prefer to lose 7-0 and play my game in my way. 

The only thing i do is to change the iwb to defend and the MC to support when i want to " defend " the result

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I started unemployed as Nuno Gomes and landed the West Ham-job on boxing day with West Ham standing 19th with only 15 points. 3 wins (0-1 vs Huddersfield, 2-0 vs Everton, 2-0 vs Brighton) later we're already 13th and playing some nice possession (almost 70%) attractive football! Really liking the way we play right now! Especially the IWB-a (Masuaku) is causing havoc around the 18 yards box.

Formation: 4-1-4-1 DM Wide
Roles:

DLF-a
W-s                       IF-a
RPM-s  MEZ-a
A-d
IWB-a CD-d CD-d IWB-s
SK-s

Mentality: Positive
Team Instructions: Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defense, Work Ball Into Box, Be More Expressive, Counterpress, Counter, Distribute to Fullbacks, Distribute to Centre-backs, Much Higher Line of Engagement, Much Higher Defensive Line, Use Offside Trap
Player Instructions: Front 5: More Urgent Pressing
 

The winter transfer window is just opened and I already bought Ross Barkley (Chelsea - € 19.5M), who will be a great asset for the Mezzala-role! I'm also targetting another option on central midfield for both roles, a new striker and maybe a right back.

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  • 1 month later...
On 01/08/2019 at 11:59, herne79 said:

A quick question - are you playing FM18 (or earlier)?  If you're playing FM19 your "shape" is completely irrelevant - the shape mentioned on screen is simply a product of how many support duty players you have.  So for FM19, concentrate on your player roles and duties.

Is 'team shape' simply a description in this game? Or does the game give your team more creativity as the shape becomes more fluid (more support duties)? It may simply be that I have used 'very fluid' shapes in almost all previous games, but I keep trying the achieve a 'very fluid' shape in this game, even if the tactic looks like it could do with an extra defensive or attacking player. It may just be a touch of OCD! But I wonder if, the more fluid the shape, the more creativity the game affords your team, perhaps as an under-the-hood type mechanic. Any ideas?

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48 minutes ago, ryandormer said:

Is 'team shape' simply a description in this game? Or does the game give your team more creativity as the shape becomes more fluid (more support duties)? It may simply be that I have used 'very fluid' shapes in almost all previous games, but I keep trying the achieve a 'very fluid' shape in this game, even if the tactic looks like it could do with an extra defensive or attacking player. It may just be a touch of OCD! But I wonder if, the more fluid the shape, the more creativity the game affords your team, perhaps as an under-the-hood type mechanic. Any ideas?

If you are playing FM18 (or earlier) then Team Shape impacts how players behave.  It adjusts their individual mentality and creativity.

If you are talking about FM19, Team Shape isn't in the game.  Team Fluidity is just a label (which imo should be removed) which essentially just counts how many support duties you have.

 

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On 11/08/2019 at 10:03, BadAss88 said:

Especially the IWB-a (Masuaku) is causing havoc around the 18 yards box.

Do you experience problems regarding Masuakus traits? Doesn’t he have “Runs the Ball Down the left”, which is idealy not what you want from an IWB? I have a leftback with ”hugs line”, which i think will ruin the idea of the IWB? Or am i wrong?

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53 minutes ago, herne79 said:

If you are talking about FM19, Team Shape isn't in the game.  Team Fluidity is just a label (which imo should be removed) which essentially just counts how many support duties you have.

Thanks for the reply, I wasnt sure if the label had any under the hood effects. If it just counts support duties, I'll ignore it. Seems pointless to have it! 

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46 minutes ago, pq said:

Do you experience problems regarding Masuakus traits? Doesn’t he have “Runs the Ball Down the left”, which is idealy not what you want from an IWB? I have a leftback with ”hugs line”, which i think will ruin the idea of the IWB? Or am i wrong?

Two ways of looking at it:

1) Yes that Trait could compromise (to an extent) an IWB's movement.

2) That Trait may help the player produce greater variety of movement - so sometimes he may come inside as an IWB, other times he may stay wider.

So it depends what you are after - a "pure" IWB or a player who may give greater variety in attack.

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1 hour ago, herne79 said:

Two ways of looking at it:

1) Yes that Trait could compromise (to an extent) an IWB's movement.

2) That Trait may help the player produce greater variety of movement - so sometimes he may come inside as an IWB, other times he may stay wider.

So it depends what you are after - a "pure" IWB or a player who may give greater variety in attack.

Should be able to upvote this more.
It really grinds my gears when people open threads on here and their systems are pointed out for being too one-dimensional by just looking at roles/duties without understanding PPMs (and player attributes) add variety to a system.

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@herne79 Could I ask if you have ever used the 'hold shape' transition instruction, and if so whether you managed to get it working? It seems like it would be ideal for possession-based sides, but whenever I have tried to use it I have abandoned it swiftly as I cannot get proper movement in the final third. I understand that the instruction 'hold shape' suggests that off the ball movement would be limited, but I assumed this would only be in the build up phase, and that players would start to roam a little more as they approach the opposition box.

Thanks.

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1 hour ago, ryandormer said:

@herne79 Could I ask if you have ever used the 'hold shape' transition instruction, and if so whether you managed to get it working? It seems like it would be ideal for possession-based sides, but whenever I have tried to use it I have abandoned it swiftly as I cannot get proper movement in the final third. I understand that the instruction 'hold shape' suggests that off the ball movement would be limited, but I assumed this would only be in the build up phase, and that players would start to roam a little more as they approach the opposition box.

Thanks.

To answer that, I'll paste this little quote from @Cleon's original possession thread (linked in the opening post):

"Roam From Position – Encourage players to make themselves available, keeping support options available. It’s probably one (if not) the most important aspect of ball retention."

Now that's not to say you have to add lots of roaming instructions to your players - if they have decent off the ball attribute it perhaps becomes less important - but to play a possession based game players typically need passing options.  And players who are able to move around finding pockets of space can help with that, so using "hold shape" could be argued as being the opposite of ideal for possession based teams. 

As with everything there is a downside of course: players may get caught out of position when possession is lost, so always weigh up the pros and cons of each tactical instruction you choose.

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Thanks for the response, I remember reading that quote and that's (largely) why I was so against trying to 'hold shape'.

However, I assumed that it would be pro-possession as it is selected in the default 'tiki-taka' tactic in the game. The theory being that, as below, the player would have multiple passing options every time he gets the ball (in front, sideways and behind):

image.thumb.png.438383f8e6a8362b82378c82ad38a2b6.png

Obviously, this is theory only, as I tended to always lose the ball towards the final third due to a complete lack of movement forward in support, and removed the instruction within a couple of games. Even overlapping full-backs would start to overlap way too late to be effective.

So I guess I completely agree with you! I was just wondering if this instruction has been used to good effect.

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  • 2 months later...

Is this thread still alive lol? 

Im reading it, and it is great. Thanks for that. In older fms i was quite beasting (well something like that hehe) but since tactic system is changed its quite harder. Im a player who like to build a team and just play, 
but now you have a stronger AI and need to put effort into tactics. And there comes my problem. I might understand football and what i want (let me confident on this lol) but the issue is understanding the tactic choises, the 
tweaks and everything. What it does, what to choose etc. I interprete something in my way but at the end in the game it is doing something totally different. Also the mentality, which i have a side not for, ...if it is about risk taking why not calling 
it that way, cuz a long time i misunderstood that one. 

Anyway, a great post and this should help me alot to understand the tactic and use it in the right way. I will implent stuff and see how it works for me. Im still reading and will do a re read for sure. This is for sure how i want to play the game.
Love to see my team having the ball poss, but hate it to see them being boring over playing poss to much, so getting those chances in a proper way faster. On the new tactics in fm 19 and now fm 20 i just use control poss (also for schedule training auto) and 
get some tweaks where needed to hopefully get it work. But it is hard, esp. in away games where i loose the game easy and that is the frustrating part. But the hard part is also that i dont have the time to watch a game in total, im surprised some do lol. But a good advice was to start a save tester which makes it less depressing when failing in the games.

Anyway Thanks alot, and again is this still alive here and is everything suitable for FM 20 also...? 

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  • 2 months later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Bump.. Read this.. all of it.. don't focus on the tactic.. focus on what the changes will DO on the pitch.  The trade off concept is simply fabulous and is the key to unlocking and ENJOYING making tactics.  The aha moment for me was learning how to control the transition moment of winning the ball ("When Possession Has Been Won" instruction):

Counter? - Defensive doesn't press you RIGHT when they lose the ball.. they drop off.  If they drop off good time to counter (if your system is setup to leverage a transition.. i.e. attacking roles)

Hold Shape? - If you get immediately COUNTER-PRESSED by the AI.. then it's a really good idea to use Hold Shape because it will look to play the ball backwards and maintain possession.. as a coach one of my favority sayings is "Backwards to go FORWARDS".

NONE? - Let the players use their decisions and attributes to make the decision or don't need to respond to one of the above items.

 

@herne79 Cheers mate this is some really good stuff!

Edited by Kharza_FM
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  • 3 weeks later...
On 20/03/2020 at 20:23, Kharza_FM said:

Bump.. Read this.. all of it.. don't focus on the tactic.. focus on what the changes will DO on the pitch.  The trade off concept is simply fabulous and is the key to unlocking and ENJOYING making tactics.  The aha moment for me was learning how to control the transition moment of winning the ball ("When Possession Has Been Won" instruction):

Counter? - Defensive doesn't press you RIGHT when they lose the ball.. they drop off.  If they drop off good time to counter (if your system is setup to leverage a transition.. i.e. attacking roles)

Hold Shape? - If you get immediately COUNTER-PRESSED by the AI.. then it's a really good idea to use Hold Shape because it will look to play the ball backwards and maintain possession.. as a coach one of my favority sayings is "Backwards to go FORWARDS".

NONE? - Let the players use their decisions and attributes to make the decision or don't need to respond to one of the above items.

 

@herne79 Cheers mate this is some really good stuff!

i'm searching for these details like you in these kind of great topics. Also i see a variety of posts needing help with possesion tactics and this is a must read for everyone.

Have you experimented with the defensive width? I ve found it particular helping when i face sides playing a 433 to defend wide or when facing 442 defending narrow. I just played Man City with half the team being substitute players cause i've been through the group stage and lost 1-0. they have jovic and Mbappe up front and they attacked me only from set pieces or from crosses from their two footed wingers. 

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  • 1 month later...
Posted (edited)

I’ve read this thread thouroughly a few weeks ago, but my god the quality of this is really beyond me. Playing fm takes up most of my time a day since the cm 01-02 version and i have always been a big fan of the possession based styles of play. 
The depht of this thread is so clear and has given me such useful new angles to look at when creating a tactic based on my ideas.

I’ve put in the hours of analysing en tweaking my basic tactic halfway in the first season with Ajax and over the months in-game i saw the results of it. I’ve won the domestic treble first season with only 2 losses in all competitions. Unfortunately i got knocked out the Champions League quarter finals to City on penalties.

Now i’m 11 games in with the 2nd season and the results speak for themselves. So glad someone has taken the time to explain with very understandable writing how you can play your effective possession play. 
 

What stunned me the most is that i see people who say it’s “impossible” to play this way because of the ME. I guess they haven’t read all of this thread or maybe they just do not understand it fully then..?

It seems impossible to make your players give them barca-like through balls when you’ve reached the final third, however this too is possible to create when you let the players who should be looking to give such balls play more direct and with more risk in their passing. When you have players in the right roles, with the right PI’s, the right PPM’s and with the right attributes, and last but not least players around them who see the runs they have to make in order to receive such balls, they will execute those passes when the opportunity comes!

The ME is just developing more to a game where you have to analyse your matches and tactic every single game in order to get the results you want and if you ask me this is just how it works in real life too. Plug and play is history nowadays and you simply cannot get away anymore with just the one tactic for every game. It requires a lot of work now and personally I wouldn’t want it any other way 🙂

Anyway, a big big thankyou goes out to @herne79  Cheers mate!

EDIT: I’m going to switch the BPDde to two CDde to suit the TI ‘play out from the back’ more to my possession game and avoid the long passes from te back. 
 

The game is in dutch so i will put the formation below in English...

 

                  SKs

WBs, BPDd, BPDd, WBs

                 HBd

 BBMs/CMa        APs

IFs                                IFa

                  F9

Team and player instructions vary from game to game

 

 

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Edited by Kevinho7
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5 hours ago, Kevinho7 said:

What stunned me the most is that i see people who say it’s “impossible” to play this way because of the ME. I guess they haven’t read all of this thread or maybe they just do not understand it fully then..?

It seems impossible to make your players give them barca-like through balls when you’ve reached the final third, however this too is possible to create when you let the players who should be looking to give such balls play more direct and with more risk in their passing. When you have players in the right roles, with the right PI’s, the right PPM’s and with the right attributes, and last but not least players around them who see the runs they have to make in order to receive such balls, they will execute those passes when the opportunity comes!

The ME is just developing more to a game where you have to analyse your matches and tactic every single game in order to get the results you want and if you ask me this is just how it works in real life too. Plug and play is history nowadays and you simply cannot get away anymore with just the one tactic for every game. It requires a lot of work now and personally I wouldn’t want it any other way 🙂

If you can not make your tactic work and get the results you want, you are probably not capable enough to give the club what they want and the opportunity for the board to sack you is right around the corner.. but isn’t that what eventually is going to happen in the real world too? 🙃

Anyway, a big big thankyou goes out to @herne79  Cheers mate!. 

The issue is that FM present it as a proper simulator when that isn’t accurate in the slightest. 

For me, fun is more important than realism, and sitting analysing every single game trying to decide why my left winger shot from the corner flag instead of crossing isn’t fun to me :)

Besides, you’re the best team in a one team league. Try playing with a more competitive team and league before bragging that you’ve found the answer 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, bluestillidie00 said:

The issue is that FM present it as a proper simulator when that isn’t accurate in the slightest. 

For me, fun is more important than realism, and sitting analysing every single game trying to decide why my left winger shot from the corner flag instead of crossing isn’t fun to me :)

Besides, you’re the best team in a one team league. Try playing with a more competitive team and league before bragging that you’ve found the answer 

For you fun is more important, for the other it’s the realism. Either way you have to play the game in a way that satisfies yourself ofcourse. 

I’m pointing out that reading the thread of @herne79 gives me new insights of how to come close to the way i want to play. My opinion about the ME is a personal one. It’s just how I feel the game has changed over the years. 

You’re entitled to your own opinion ofcourse, but in no way am i bragging about accomplishments with the best team of this particular league, nor am i telling someone how they should play the game. So if my post looked like bragging than I have to make my apologies as that was certainly not my intent at all 🙂

It’s a reaction where i’m happy with the way the explanations helped me get to this and my personal thoughts on the game as a simulation

Edited by Kevinho7
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