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herne79

Developing my 4123DM Wide ("Tiki-Taka")

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41 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

If your players keep shooting (from distance) and crossing in spite of these instructions, it always means only one thing - they are lacking other/better options in the final third. Or more precisely - you failed to set up the tactic in a way that would provide those better options (in most cases due to a wrong setup of roles and/or duties).

Yes i know that because i made my experiences from playing 3 Series of FM. But how does a new Player who Is Properbly not Willing to surf Forums for Hours?

he will just Click WBIB and Cross/shoot less.

thats what I meant when I said it’s not intuitive. The game needs more information about what’s going wrong.. I guess that’s not the topic here tho

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5 hours ago, mrgoal100 said:

First off, excellent thread.

IMO, this is the most important post. Everything else you explained, principles you follow, how you have a plan, it's quite easy, you just need to cover some basics.

Point is, you can créate a perfectly balanced tactic but you Will need to adjust it according to how the AI reacts. Now, if you don't have the ability to read what the ME is showing, everything fails. Well, not everything, you can still have good results, overachieve and win trophies, but there is a feeling that there something I'm missing, that I could do better...

You can build a solid tactic that Works under certain circumstances. If circumstances change, stops working. If you are totally unable to understand what has changed, why and how to fight against it, then you are lost.

While this kind of threads can be excellent (congratulations @herne79), I miss in this fórums more threads explaining how to read the ME. Unfortunately, this doesn't come with experience only. Yes I know about Rashidi's videos but it's the same. I don't understand your decisions, your thought process, I don't know what you see in the ME that makes you change specific things, and why not others.

In all honesty, I dare to suggest you experts should put more emphasis on this because it's where, I think, most of users struggle, including me. I'd like to strenghten that aspect of the game, but I have no idea how and I don't find posts here explaining it.

 

.

Thanks and fair enough.

Whilst there are plenty of posts which cover this, particularly from people such as @Cleon or @Rashidi's channel (or even from myself), I know it can be confusing.  I wasn't born with the ability, I've learnt it and am still learning.

First and perhaps most importantly it's essential to understand your tactical system and the players who use it.  This - with experience - can give you a broad understanding of what to expect on the pitch.  I'm not talking about micro things here such as precisely where my defensive line is set, are my corners aimed at the near post or are my players making really short or just short passes.  Too complicated.  Rather I'm looking at: am I pressing the opposition player in an area of the pitch roughly where I want them to; is my attacking fullback getting forward well in support/providing overlaps; are my central defenders positioned well; am I actually creating any chances; is my Winger doing what a Winger is supposed to do.

Secondly, and perhaps equally as important, is the context of the match.  Take a look at the first 10 mins of this match I just played away at Watford.  Note that I'm not using a possession based tactic here (nor one that I've written about).  I know what to expect from my system, I trust my system and I know how I expect my players to behave.  But I only see flashes of it during the first 10 mins.  I see too many long balls forward (unusual for us but not unheard of) and we're giving away too much possession (I look at the stats after 10 mins and sure enough Watford have over 70% possession, which is way more than I'd expect).

But - and here's where context comes into play - Watford are at home and we're not the most reputable of teams, so Watford start off eagerly whilst we're a bit tentative (perhaps I need to improve my team talks).  But, crucially, their attacks are very ineffectual.  They're not exactly troubling my keeper.  How many shots do you count Watford having?  And, because I'm confident in my system & players, I'm happy to weather the opening 10 minutes "storm" because Watford are toothless.

So I actually don't change anything after 10 mins.  That's a risk because we're not playing that well or how I expect (and I am tempted to make changes), so that could be over confidence on my part and come back to bite me.  But it's a calculated risk and one I'm prepared to make because of the trust I have in my system.

Here's the next 10 minutes and - hopefully - you can see how we gradually exert more control over the game.  We start seeing more of the ball in the Watford half; we force more errors; we start getting corners.  It's not all our way of course, but it's a marked difference to the first 10 mins.  And watch what happens at the end of the video:

We actually score again 5 mins after that (a long kick from our keeper to Alcacer who crosses it for Immobile inside the box and bosh back of the net) and we run out easy 2-0 winners.  These are the end of match stats:

HCXHdOz.png

Watford still toothless and our possession has increased significantly from the opening 10 mins.

I don't know if this helps or not.  I know I make this sound simple (perhaps overly so) but it really doesn't need to be complicated.  If I were using a system which used 20 different tactical instructions, I wouldn't have a clue when watching matches because I wouldn't properly understand such a complex system.  Thus I wouldn't really understand what to expect in a match.

TL;DR - understand your system before you try to "read the ME".

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hace 20 horas, herne79 dijo:

Thanks and fair enough.

Whilst there are plenty of posts which cover this, particularly from people such as @Cleon or @Rashidi's channel (or even from myself), I know it can be confusing.  I wasn't born with the ability, I've learnt it and am still learning.

First and perhaps most importantly it's essential to understand your tactical system and the players who use it.  This - with experience - can give you a broad understanding of what to expect on the pitch.  I'm not talking about micro things here such as precisely where my defensive line is set, are my corners aimed at the near post or are my players making really short or just short passes.  Too complicated.  Rather I'm looking at: am I pressing the opposition player in an area of the pitch roughly where I want them to; is my attacking fullback getting forward well in support/providing overlaps; are my central defenders positioned well; am I actually creating any chances; is my Winger doing what a Winger is supposed to do.

Secondly, and perhaps equally as important, is the context of the match.  Take a look at the first 10 mins of this match I just played away at Watford.  Note that I'm not using a possession based tactic here (nor one that I've written about).  I know what to expect from my system, I trust my system and I know how I expect my players to behave.  But I only see flashes of it during the first 10 mins.  I see too many long balls forward (unusual for us but not unheard of) and we're giving away too much possession (I look at the stats after 10 mins and sure enough Watford have over 70% possession, which is way more than I'd expect).

But - and here's where context comes into play - Watford are at home and we're not the most reputable of teams, so Watford start off eagerly whilst we're a bit tentative (perhaps I need to improve my team talks).  But, crucially, their attacks are very ineffectual.  They're not exactly troubling my keeper.  How many shots do you count Watford having?  And, because I'm confident in my system & players, I'm happy to weather the opening 10 minutes "storm" because Watford are toothless.

So I actually don't change anything after 10 mins.  That's a risk because we're not playing that well or how I expect (and I am tempted to make changes), so that could be over confidence on my part and come back to bite me.  But it's a calculated risk and one I'm prepared to make because of the trust I have in my system.

Here's the next 10 minutes and - hopefully - you can see how we gradually exert more control over the game.  We start seeing more of the ball in the Watford half; we force more errors; we start getting corners.  It's not all our way of course, but it's a marked difference to the first 10 mins.  And watch what happens at the end of the video:

We actually score again 5 mins after that (a long kick from our keeper to Alcacer who crosses it for Immobile inside the box and bosh back of the net) and we run out easy 2-0 winners.  These are the end of match stats:

HCXHdOz.png

Watford still toothless and our possession has increased significantly from the opening 10 mins.

I don't know if this helps or not.  I know I make this sound simple (perhaps overly so) but it really doesn't need to be complicated.  If I were using a system which used 20 different tactical instructions, I wouldn't have a clue when watching matches because I wouldn't properly understand such a complex system.  Thus I wouldn't really understand what to expect in a match.

TL;DR - understand your system before you try to "read the ME".

Unfortunately, this is the kind of post you experts expect Will help people but it really doesn't. I'll try to explain it...

I perfectly know how I want my team to play, how I want my players to move, where I want the ball to go. I know what I want.

What I don't know is why my players stop following my instructions. Why my winger starts cutting inside instead of running wide (no, please, I checked player traits). There is a reason why this kind of things happen. You are able to identify the cause and fix it. Me (we) not.

Why opponents start running at twice the pace of mine? Sure this description is wrong because somewhat under the Hood there is something going on but I don't know what. I don't know where context starts and ends. Why my WP doesn't move to central positions offering an extra man in midfield and hence another passing option? Why he stays wide? I know my system I specifically used this role for this reason. I know what I expect to happen. What I don't know is why it doesn't happen. Is an issue related to player atributes? Ok, I'd like to hear it from you, identifying which specific attribute (or group of atributes) is causing it.

Sometimes, I can't even isolate events I don't like because there is nothing I like. Why my players always choose the worst option available? Just a bad day? Every week? 

I can't tell you what the ME considers a realistic passing option. I know what a passing option is, but does the ME agree?

What we need are specific examples of events in the ME that have an specific meaning. How to know if the defensive line is too high or too Deep (no please, general descriptions, no, concrete examples, with visual description).

This is not about understanding a system, it's about understanding what the ME is trying to show! Threads explain basic concepts, how to understand a system and then Rashidi's videos explain very advanced tactical concepts and how are they reflected in the ME. But there must be an intermediate point. I don't want to play with 2 inverted wingbacks overloading the middle while my mezzala and WP swap positions (random example)… I'd like to know why my WP or winger don't move how their roles, atributes and player traits indicate.

I really hope you get the idea. I honestly hope it. Visual descriptions of tactical flaws, identifying the cause and how to fix it. Is this spoonfeeding? At least, not more than telling people they need a plan or a holding midfielder… I really hope you undestand what I try to explain.

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19 minutes ago, mrgoal100 said:

Unfortunately, this is the kind of post you experts expect Will help people but it really doesn't

 

21 hours ago, herne79 said:

I don't know if this helps or not.

I don't expect ;).

Unfortunately it seems you are having similar issues as others have before you - you see something during a match you don't like but don't really know what to do to fix it.  And I'm afraid there isn't always a simple answer.  There is no "press X if you see Y happening".  Why not?  Because it's a game of football and as such there is no single answer because each match is different.

Further, players are not robots.  They will never just follow your (or their own) instructions all of the time.  So yeh, a Winger will come inside now and again although I'd still expect them to tend to stay wide more often than not when they have the ball.  Honestly that can be a difficult concept to grasp - players can and do (sometimes) think for themselves.  They're not automatons, so whilst your tactical instructions set a framework for your team to play in, sometimes they will push those boundaries.

I don't know what system you are using, or your results and you are the only one who can see the matches you play, so nobody can give you any specific advice at present.  Not even "us experts" (ugh, terrible term btw lol).  I still make mistakes - that video I linked above could easily have gone pear shaped on me - so don't put so much pressure on yourself.  As you initially said:

21 hours ago, herne79 said:

if you don't have the ability to read what the ME is showing, everything fails. Well, not everything, you can still have good results, overachieve and win trophies,

I guess you are getting some good results and that doesn't come by accident.  So you must already have knowledge sufficient to do that, don't lose sight of it.  I guess you want to take things on to a different level and understand more about what happens during matches and that may take a bit of time, along with some trial and error.  Set up a test save if it helps, try things out, see what happens, experiment.  See what works well, learn from what doesn't.

The bottom line is you're not trying to decode some computer program.  You're just watching a game of football.

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I'd also add that it can be helpful for you @mrgoal100 to post these particular situations and possibly other people can help out by even just suggesting things to investigate?

So with an example of a winger consistently cutting inside when you don't want him to, making a new topic featuring the overall tactic, the attributes/PPMs of the specific player involved, and a gif/movie of the player engaging in the undesirable behavior would be a good foundation for trying to figure out what's happening without wildly taking shots in the dark.

I know that's a fair amount of work, I think it would be a good thought exercise for everybody involved though.

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1 hour ago, mrgoal100 said:

What I don't know is why my players stop following my instructions. Why my winger starts cutting inside instead of running wide (no, please, I checked player traits). There is a reason why this kind of things happen

The fact is - or at least my experience is such - that in FM19 wingers aren't as "one-dimensional" as they were in FM18 in the sense that they now don't stubbornly run wide and hug the line all the time, which I personally like because they are now less isolated, i.e. more involved in play. Now, if your winger plays on the side of his stronger foot and does not have the "Cuts inside" trait (or any other that would make him run inwards), he should not cut inside in the manner the IF/IW does, except in occasional situations when he is forced to do so by opposition players, i.e. their way of defending. In my Brighton save (442) I use both wingers and IWs. My left-footed winger on the left sometimes runs inside toward the opposition penalty area, especially when there is space for him to directly attack the box (rather than running wide), but that's a logical behavior in such situations IMO. Likewise, my left-footed IW (mainly Knockaert), who plays as the IW on the right and does have the "Cut inside from the RW" (plus avoids using weaker foot) in certain situations behaves like a standard winger in the sense that he runs down the right (instead of cutting inside), but that happens only when the opposition's way of defending is forcing him to run wide. Otherwise - and that is most of the time - he acts as an IW is supposed to. 

So the question is whether your winger cuts inside all (or most of) the time or just occasionally. Of course, the issue you have might be caused by some other tactical setting, rather than the winger himself.

 

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23 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

he should not cut inside in the manner the IF/IW does, except in occasional situations when he is forced to do so by opposition players

One of my biggest issues with so many complaints about the game this year... strikers not scoring, wingers not succeeding with crosses, defenders losing possession, keepers failing to make a save, and players just not doing what I want. It's almost as if there was another team on the pitch trying to thwart my plans. Who knew that was allowed?

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2 hours ago, mrgoal100 said:

What we need are specific examples of events in the ME that have an specific meaning.

Don't you constantly get tactical advice & feedback from your assistant?  Plus action zones, focus of attacks, possession bars, match stats, player stats etc.  They are all telling you things, all the time.

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hace 59 minutos, scratchmonkey dijo:

I'd also add that it can be helpful for you @mrgoal100 to post these particular situations and possibly other people can help out by even just suggesting things to investigate?

So with an example of a winger consistently cutting inside when you don't want him to, making a new topic featuring the overall tactic, the attributes/PPMs of the specific player involved, and a gif/movie of the player engaging in the undesirable behavior would be a good foundation for trying to figure out what's happening without wildly taking shots in the dark.

I know that's a fair amount of work, I think it would be a good thought exercise for everybody involved though.

It really doesn't matter the tactic. Neither the roles. There is no fundamental flaw in the tactics. It's just a matter of adjusting against opposition.

I've just won a match 2-1 but it was a complete disaster and I can't tell you why. I really don't know what happened. I play a 4411 with a winger (right) and besides him a RPM. There was a lot of space between both because the winger was wide (fine) and RPM was  moving (roaming, thats his role) too much. Winger was totally out of the game, imposible to pass the ball to him. I changed my righ fb to IWB but then I saw my RPM and IWB on top of each other, so changed IWB back to fb and RPM to Mezzala so he could connect better with the winger and use the space he was creating staying wide.

Ok, here my ideas end. I didn't see anything else particularly noticeable but still, all passes were intercepted or missplaced, everywhere on the pitch. My defenders were like ghosts, trespassed by the opponents.

It's not about the results, they are fine, I'm not going to complain about them, it's about understanding what's going on in front of my eyes. There was an obvious problem, anyone could easily see there was something off in this match, but I couldn't find out what.

By the way, still on fm18, I tried fm19 and didn't like what they did to tactics, but it's just my taste.

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hace 4 minutos, Robson 07 dijo:

Don't you constantly get tactical advice & feedback from your assistant?  Plus action zones, focus of attacks, possession bars, match stats, player stats etc.  They are all telling you things, all the time.

I don't know how to read and use this information. That's my problem, actually.

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11 minutes ago, mrgoal100 said:

Winger was totally out of the game, imposible to pass the ball to him...

all passes were intercepted or missplaced, everywhere on the pitch. My defenders were like ghosts, trespassed by the opponents.

And yet despite every pass being misplaced and your defenders being ghosts, you won 2-1.

I know you're frustrated but please don't exaggerate - we don't know what you're doing and we can't see the matches you play, so in order for any of us to give advice we need accurate information from you and this quote above isn't accurate.

You are, however, getting plenty of good general advice.  As I said above, there is no "do X if Y happens", FM doesn't work that way - football doesn't work that way.  Your players are not robots and can "think" for themselves.  All you do is provide the framework.  How you then adjust that framework is what people above are telling you: watch matches; experiment; think about context; read all the advice, reports and stats provided.  It's not an instant thing for 99% of people - it certainly wasn't for me - it comes with practise and experience.

So when you say things such as:

3 hours ago, mrgoal100 said:

How to know if the defensive line is too high or too Deep (no please, general descriptions, no, concrete examples, with visual description).

This is not a question which can be answered without context.  So for example, what are the opposition up to?  Are they playing with an AMC?  Is he managing to get throughballs to his striker behind your defence?  Yes?  Then how is that AMC getting the space to do that if you're using a high def line?  That might be more to do with pressing than a def line problem.  Or your midfielders not doing their defensive job properly.  Maybe the opposition wingers are getting early crosses in behind your defence?  Might that be due to a lack of defensive work from your winger (if using them) rather than the def line?  Then again, perhaps it is the def line.  But what about your own players - are they capable of playing with such a high def line?  There is a risk involved in using a high def line, how have you tried to mitigate that risk?

So you may want concrete examples but, as I keep saying, there is no "do X if Y happens".

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On 09/04/2019 at 06:36, mrgoal100 said:

There was an obvious problem, anyone could easily see there was something off in this match, but I couldn't find out what.

If every real manager in the world could see that, then every team in the premier league will be able to rise to the top.

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1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

If every real manager in the world could see that, then every team in the premier league will be able to rise to the top.

trololololo, nice meme. Football Manager is still a game and far faR fAR FAR away from being reality.

@mrgoal100 dont overthink stuff, FM is not as hard as it might seem its just poorly explained and converted to ME. In terms of Defensive line look for (through) balls over the Top. if that happens regulary your D-Line is too high or your CD's pressing intensity is too high as they leave their position and open up space. 

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hace 2 horas, Rashidi dijo:

If every real manager in the world could see that, then every team in the premier league will be able to rise to the top.

Actually, it's the opposite. If every manager could take always perfect decisions, matches would be won or lost due to quality of players. As a consequence, quality differences would increase and for poor teams would be imposible to rise to the top.

You can do better, if you want...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

Football Manager is still a game and far faR fAR FAR away from being reality

It is a game, but the only one that makes sense and is really very close to a perfect simulation of real-life football. For people who want to genuinely understand football, there is no game other than FM that offers them exactly that.

Edited by Experienced Defender

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On ‎09‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 00:04, mrgoal100 said:

I don't know how to read and use this information. That's my problem, actually.

  • How to know if the defensive line is too high or too Deep
  • all passes were intercepted or missplaced, everywhere on the pitch.

Quick example.  If the opposition has a lot of long shots against you.  Play a higher defensive line.  And/or you could use a defensive midfielder or close down more.

If you are beaten by balls over the top and are wary of your opponents counter attack then play a lower defensive line.

For the next one.  The interceptions sounds like the opposition has a good shape and that your pass completion %age is too low.  To improve pass completion play slower, shorter, maybe more disciplined or decrease your team mentality.

 

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20 horas atrás, CARRERA disse:

trololololo, nice meme. Football Manager is still a game and far faR fAR FAR away from being reality.

@mrgoal100 dont overthink stuff, FM is not as hard as it might seem its just poorly explained and converted to ME. In terms of Defensive line look for (through) balls over the Top. if that happens regulary your D-Line is too high or your CD's pressing intensity is too high as they leave their position and open up space. 

What he said was true. How many coaches don't make bad decisions during a game because they can't see? Even the better ones fail at sometimes, look at Pep the other day. 

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Anw, my advice is to see a lot of football. Stop the game, see, run the game and see what happened. Read a lot about the game tactically and then you will know what to do in the game. And if by then you still don't know, all you need to grasp is the concepts in game and what they do. 

I get frustrated a lot, even if 70% is only my ego and super high expectations, but I see my problem is more about football than the about the game. Watching a lot real football helps, because you will notice patterns and how to block other patterns.

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On 17/03/2019 at 12:53, alanfishead said:

So I've been trying to achieve this style of football for a while however struggling to make anything stick! This thread has definitely helped improve things. I've had a decent start to the season (W5 L2). However I'm just not creating good chances. Having watched games in full it was clear in those 5 wins I was riding my luck and eventually it ran out as I've just lost to Stoke away. A game in which I had to settle for 49% possession. My problem is creating CCCs having seen only 3 in 8 games (2 of which were in the same game). My base tactic is below, however the roles do change from game to game. 

20190317191737_1.thumb.jpg.ded33baa1e5be13cb0ca9a28c0b55a43.jpg

 

I'm late to the party (by like a month) but at least figured can use this as a bit of a springboard =p. Looking at the tactic, and I'm ignoring who is playing where for this (I know it does matter, as even in mentioned in this thread, but I'm lazy), it's a bit toothless. 

Yes there are attacking players, but just looking at the opposition backline, are they going to really struggle? No, one FB stays with the winger, the other tucks in to cut off your IF, while the two CDs can focus on dealing with the CM(a) and the DLF. Saying that, this isn't far off and my suggestions to try (hell, if I get bored sometime I might screw around with it in one of my saves) would be to:

 

1) Switch the two CMs

2) Change the FB(s) to either FB(a) or WB(a) (I like WB(a) a bit better but haven't messed around with it too much outside of sides much stronger than the league)

3) Change the IWB(d) to IWB (a)

 

Now the defense is forced into making decisions, the left side FB has to choose between the winger or IWB. Likely the Winger, passing the IWB off to the CD. on the right it's a bit murkier but likely he'd tuck in to take the IF over the WB. But we're at least forcing decisions and being human mistakes can (and likely will) happen. 

Anyways, to the springboard, I've been trying to do this when I have time myself and have found it to work in generally thinking "how would I defend this?" Of course there is 11 players and not 4 (or sometimes 5) on the team but, at least for me, it's easier to focus on the backline and adjust later than try to think in terms of all 11 opposing players and end up with this random mess that ends up not being effective anyways. 

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What y'all do when the other team presses high? I'm struggling with this as my players only pass backwards. 

Meanwhile, I also tried to put a CM(s) with a AP(a), but this just doesn't work. The Ap has "gets forward", but he tracks back a lot and the CM it's like he doesn't exist at all.

All my players have all great antecipation, composure, off ball, decisions, name it, but I still struggle to get the transitions going and then scoring. Pretty often I see my wide players being off even if I've Malcom and Bailey on the wings.

 

 

 

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I read 7 pages still no idea how to set up a system that brings possession with intent. Nowhere are role combinations that should help or something else stated by the op, nothing. Still having 35% at home against teams that play on Defensive mentality and just pass the ball around in their half, even with maximum LOE and D-Line.

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29 minutes ago, KI Heynckes said:

Nowhere are role combinations that should help or something else stated by the op, nothing

If you carefully read the thread, you must have found the post in which Herne showed the exact tactic and explained it in detail.

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I managed to create two versions of the tactic (two different mentalities depending on the opposition) and win the Champions League 2nd season with Ajax with only 1 key addition in attack (and some luck, obviously. You can't win anything without some luck, except perhaps a Supercup) and looking back all the information I needed was in these three posts:

Basic Principles - 2. Mythbusting

Basic Principles - 3. Passing and Movement

Putting it all Together

@KI Heynckes reading all 7 pages can be information overload, just look back and focus on the ones that have gone blue from having multiple upvotes (primarily written by the OP) as they're the ones that are probably the most helpful.

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Posted (edited)

I doubt this really is what it takes. I thought 1 hour about this tactic setup, end up with 52% possession in Mainz, lose 0-1 after 80, I go to my 4-4-2 and basically instantly score.

Very disappointing and frustrating.

Lost against Wolfsburg 2-1 with 54% possesssion I read this things 10 times nothing works like it should. That makes no sense. I'm done, from save champions to out of Top 4 with thjs 4-3-3 tactic. That this RBL team loses thus tactic must really suck. 

Edited by KI Heynckes

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THANK YOU. I GOT SACKED BECAUSE USING THIS KIND OF TACTIC. THANK YOU. THIS TEAM GOES TO THE CL FINAL NOW LOSES EVERYGAME

This is just not possible especially against teams that come on Defensive mentality and just pass around, no width, no tempo nothing. I bet this screenshots all are faked or something like that.

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1 hour ago, KI Heynckes said:

THANK YOU. I GOT SACKED BECAUSE USING THIS KIND OF TACTIC. THANK YOU. THIS TEAM GOES TO THE CL FINAL NOW LOSES EVERYGAME

This is just not possible especially against teams that come on Defensive mentality and just pass around, no width, no tempo nothing. I bet this screenshots all are faked or something like that.

Yeh it's all faked and nobody in this thread has found it useful :rolleyes:.

Perhaps if you actually posted some detail of your system instead of just whining you might get some help.

14 hours ago, KI Heynckes said:

I doubt this really is what it takes. I thought 1 hour about this tactic setup...<snip>That this RBL team loses thus tactic must really suck. 

There's your problem.  This isn't a "tactic", I made that quite clear and the reason why I didn't post any tactical shots until page 3.  What sucks is that you have failed to understand the basic concepts meaning you have been unable to implement something successfully into your own team.

I appreciate you're frustrated but if you want help this isn't the way to go about it.

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Posted (edited)
vor 28 Minuten schrieb herne79:

Yeh it's all faked and nobody in this thread has found it useful :rolleyes:.

Perhaps if you actually posted some detail of your system instead of just whining you might get some help.

There's your problem.  This isn't a "tactic", I made that quite clear and the reason why I didn't post any tactical shots until page 3.  What sucks is that you have failed to understand the basic concepts meaning you have been unable to implement something successfully into your own team.

I appreciate you're frustrated but if you want help this isn't the way to go about it.

Arrogant as always... Wow. I'm not stupid so obviously I applied this to my team. But it's just a fact that it doesn't work and that with a team that went to the CL Final. I took the principles and played a really simplistic 4-3-3 and still maximum 55% possession and losing.

Edited by KI Heynckes

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29 minutes ago, KI Heynckes said:

Arrogant as always... Wow. I'm not stupid so obviously I applied this to my team. But it's just a fact that it doesn't work and that with a team that went to the CL Final. I took the principles and played a really simplistic 4-3-3 and still maximum 55% possession and losing.

But the principles do work, it's all logical stuff when you think about it. If you copied Herne's "tactic" of course it may not work for you, it was setup for his team (hence why the title is "Developing my 4-1-2-3 DM Wide") and you're not playing as West Ham. Therefore you'll have different players, with different attributes and PPMs so they'll interpret the roles differently.

If you do want some help perhaps upload a screenshot of your tactic so people can see where you're (potentially) going wrong?

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32 minutes ago, KI Heynckes said:

Arrogant as always... Wow.

If you don't like my response perhaps don't be rude to people in the first place?

32 minutes ago, KI Heynckes said:

But it's just a fact that it doesn't work for you and that with a team that went to the CL Final.

Corrected that for you.

If you want to carry on being obnoxious you'll be treated accordingly and I'll remove further such posts.  Continue doing it and it's much easier to simply remove you.  On the other hand if you'd like some help then post in a constructive manner because all we've had from you some far is "this doesn't work", followed up by sarcasm and rudeness.

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As said above, I'm removing posts now.  PM me if anyone wants to discuss that further.

Cut out the sarcasm, cut out accusations of faking (which started all this nonsense) and post constructively if you want help.

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I'm reading Lines and Diamonds from THOG and now I'm really understanding all my problems.

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1 minute ago, KI Heynckes said:

HERNE79 PROMOTES CENSORSHIP PLEASE FIRE HIM FROM THE MODERATOR TEAM I CAN'T BELIEVE IT

HE DELETES CONSTRUCTIVE MESSAGES BY ME, I WROTE AN ENTIRE TEXT ABOUT THE TACTIC AND THAT IT DIDN'T WORK AND IT GETS DELETED

*sigh*.

I tell you what, as you seem to like making things public (I did ask you to PM me instead) I'll paste in your "entire text about the tactic" which I apparently deleted and I'll let everyone else make their own minds up on that.  These are the three posts I removed after asking you to be constructive and warning you I would remove posts:

First post: "How would it be if you just start trying to help or alternatively just don't answering, instead of threatening me and other users and acting like I'm stupid, as you did before?"

Second post: "Lol what? I just asked for help and you're censoring my posts. Gonna write a mail to the Admins. Can't believe mods behave like this on here."

Third post: "Hahahahhahaha this guy is unreal. You just confirmed with deleting that post that you're censoring my posts even though I just asked for help. I have screenshots proofing that, mail to the Admins is out."

Perhaps my standards are slipping but I'm not really seeing an entire text about your tactic there.  Those are the only 3 of your posts which have been removed.

Now I've indulged you enough.  Post constructive detail about your system as you have been repeatedly asked to do by more people than just myself, or stop posting here.

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So I'm sorry for being so aggressive, this just annoyed and frustrated me so much, seing the op dominate Arsenal with West Ham and my team that won Bundesliga and Cup 1st season, 1 point short of Bayern and losing to a De Bruyne screamer in the CL Final 2nd season loses against Wolfsburg. 

I'll post the set-up underneath, but I'm not really sure what's that wrong with it, having such abysmal results without even getting near the possession numbers of the OP.

20190419_181633.jpg

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21 minutes ago, KI Heynckes said:

20190419_181633.jpg

 

21 minutes ago, KI Heynckes said:

I'll post the set-up underneath, but I'm not really sure what's that wrong with it, having such abysmal results without even getting near the possession numbers of the OP

Well, speaking solely of possession-oriented football, AFAIR the OP does not use:

- a winger

- a mezzala (on any duty, especially not on attack)

- a FB on attack duty

- a WB (on any duty)

And also uses certain player instructions, most notably the "Roam from position" for the front 5 guys. I hope he'll correct me if I'm wrong on this.

And just to be clear: I am not talking about what's right or wrong tactically - because no single tactic (or maybe very few) will work for different teams in the same way/with same level of success - just pointing to the obvious differences between the OP's tactic and yours.

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28 minutes ago, KI Heynckes said:

So I'm sorry for being so aggressive

Thank you, that's appreciated :thup:.

A couple of quick thoughts:

- Any particular reason you've chosen that formation?  I see you also play a 442, so why change?  Have you considered a 4231 perhaps?

- A Positive mentality + a very high def line can be deadly without the right defenders.  Do they have enough anticipation or pace to help with that?  Or perhaps team work if you use the offside trap?

- Your right flank could be guilty of excessive crossing resulting in lost possession.

- Do your players have sufficient Aggression, Determination, Work Rate and Stamina to pull off such a consistently high intensity press?

- How are you managing player roaming and dribbling?  Lots of (attempted) dribbling can give away possession, especially if the players trying to do it don't have sufficient skills.

- Why not much higher line of engagement?  (Or is that unavailable with the Positive mentality?  I'm not in game and don't remember off the top of my head).

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3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

- Why not much higher line of engagement?  (Or is that unavailable with the Positive mentality?

It is available on any mentality :thup:

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Posted (edited)

@Experienced Defender @herne79

I basically used the roam from position and more closing down to get a split block for the top 5 players, also Cross Less Often for the Wing Backs. 

I didn't pay that much detail on attributes because I'm pretty sure that West Ham wasn't cherrypicked and my players should be better than theirs in general. I'll look into them now though.

I used the Mezzala because it worked perfect for Haidara until now and I thought it would bring a little bit more penetration than a CM/A. Also besides Adams I don't really have a player that could play the Hybrid role of an IFB, maybe Schlager could do it attribute wise, which wouldn't be a bad option tbh, so that he still gets enough games, when I get Szoboloszai next season.

The problem I just have is, that I don't know how to get more possession against these teams that just play on Defensive and pass the ball in their half. I compared the Wolfsburg game to one against Schalke or so which was really similar to their system, where I played with my Attacking and don't care 4-4-2 (or asymmetric 4-1-3-1-1 with Demme in DM strata and Wolf in AM strata) and in that match I had around 370 passes, against Wolfsburg 580. So you see the difference but still only 46% or something possession and losing instead of pretty easy win.

Edited by KI Heynckes

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On 20/04/2019 at 01:53, KI Heynckes said:

@Experienced Defender @herne79

I basically used the roam from position and more closing down to get a split block for the top 5 players, also Cross Less Often for the Wing Backs. 

I didn't pay that much detail on attributes because I'm pretty sure that West Ham wasn't cherrypicked and my players should be better than theirs in general. I'll look into them now though.

I used the Mezzala because it worked perfect for Haidara until now and I thought it would bring a little bit more penetration than a CM/A. Also besides Adams I don't really have a player that could play the Hybrid role of an IFB, maybe Schlager could do it attribute wise, which wouldn't be a bad option tbh, so that he still gets enough games, when I get Szoboloszai next season.

The problem I just have is, that I don't know how to get more possession against these teams that just play on Defensive and pass the ball in their half. I compared the Wolfsburg game to one against Schalke or so which was really similar to their system, where I played with my Attacking and don't care 4-4-2 (or asymmetric 4-1-3-1-1 with Demme in DM strata and Wolf in AM strata) and in that match I had around 370 passes, against Wolfsburg 580. So you see the difference but still only 46% or something possession and losing instead of pretty easy win.

I see you mentioned me in the post (along with Herne), and I am always willing to help people. But given that this thread is Herne's and that it was him who created and developed the tactic, I really wouldn't like to meddle in giving advice that specifically pertains to (t)his playing style, simply because I think it would be somewhat inappropriate. Plus, I personally don't play possession-based football (nor am I a fan of it), even though I understand its principles and the point of this thread and am not opposed to possession per se :thup:

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On 31/01/2019 at 18:42, herne79 said:

AML...Knocks Ball Past Opponent (which combined with his dribbling ability makes him lethal).

I've removed a lot...this is from the "piecing it all together" post. I'm just intrigued by this statement - coach advice with ppm training is all over the place, but one of the most consistent ones seems to be "don't train that guy with brilliant dribbling to knock it past his opponent, its a waste of his talents", and I can see where they're coming from as it seems like a move for a guy with good acceleration and crossing but poor dribbling to get past a person. Yet you suggest it works in combination with good dribbling in this particular case?

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Posted (edited)
On 15/04/2019 at 15:42, Razor940 said:

What y'all do when the other team presses high? I'm struggling with this as my players only pass backwards. 

Depends on what the other team is doing; my general strategy for this is to make sure that my wide defenders are providing outlets on at least one side and not hand-holding with the wide attacker on that side. Either they are going to be open or they will draw a defender over to them which will usually prevent the press from working as intended or open up space for one of your central players.

It can be important if you try this strategy that you have a keeper who's comfortable pinging the ball around with his feet, I'm very happy when the opposition presses me into the backpass if there isn't immediate pressure on the GK because I know my keeper will (most of the time) make a relatively simple pass that will break the press and we'll have space to play into because of the players that they've committed upfield.

Edited by scratchmonkey

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38 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

I've removed a lot...this is from the "piecing it all together" post. I'm just intrigued by this statement - coach advice with ppm training is all over the place, but one of the most consistent ones seems to be "don't train that guy with brilliant dribbling to knock it past his opponent, its a waste of his talents", and I can see where they're coming from as it seems like a move for a guy with good acceleration and crossing but poor dribbling to get past a person. Yet you suggest it works in combination with good dribbling in this particular case?

I like variety.  Things like this can give players an extra dimension to their game.

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Just now, herne79 said:

I like variety.  Things like this can give players an extra dimension to their game.

Makes sense. Kinda like how I've taken to having Wingers with "Cuts Inside" traits to mix their game up. I suppose there's nothing to stop him knocking the ball past one opponent, then using his high dribbling to beat the next one.

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You guys are making tactics more complicated then it needs to be lol.

You need 1 Winger to be on (attack)

1 CM to be on attack

1 Wing-back to be on attack  

image.thumb.png.2ef8e9a1d0ef591aa96b64c9e5f4f366.png

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2 hours ago, kingking said:

You guys are making tactics more complicated then it needs to be lol.

You need 1 Winger to be on (attack)

1 CM to be on attack

1 Wing-back to be on attack  

image.thumb.png.2ef8e9a1d0ef591aa96b64c9e5f4f366.png

What tactical settings and techniques are you using to achieve your high possession numbers?  How much possession do you typically see?  Also bearing in mind you are using one of the strongest teams in the world, how would this translate into a "lesser" team?

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This is a fantastic thread @herne79 thanks for taking the time to put it together. @Cleon is the messiah as far as I'm concerned, I've been studying his articles for some time, especially the possession and counter-attacking ones. It's a great help to see your take on things in FM19.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, herne79 said:

What tactical settings and techniques are you using to achieve your high possession numbers?

I've only managed to achieve around 55-60 possession  and win the match with good chances

I believe that if you play high possession football without a combination of 1 cm (attack), 1 winger, (attack), 1 fullback (attack)  its extremely difficult to break through defences with teams that park the bus 

You struggle to win against teams  if all the players are on support or defence 

 

 

image.png.976910be98d01fbdc1c1dc0877ea20bc.png

 image.thumb.png.0c924c6887e89eee6fe4b10216621102.png

image.thumb.png.520d5d1c73c02fb6b98c0648d134af11.png

 

 

 

image.thumb.png.e56aa138603bb416f4d93dcc1f967eb3.png

 

 

image.thumb.png.449ac7d3fbc63f869de402026bbc6151.png

 

Edited by kingking

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Posted (edited)

Use lots of time-wasting, that helps to increase possession numbers i think...  and also use the standard mentality 

Edited by kingking

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, herne79 said:

What tactical settings and techniques are you using to achieve your high possession numbers?  How much possession do you typically see?  Also bearing in mind you are using one of the strongest teams in the world, how would this translate into a "lesser" team?

The tactic still applies to lesser teams,

if you use "possession short passing football" but still lose matches, because you team is weaker... theres nothing you can do tbh i dont think

you should then use  "parking the bus, direct passing, high tempo counter attacking" football

or if you do use possession style football against stronger teams... then just make sure you defence is on point because they will exploit the spaces you create

Edited by kingking

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18 minutes ago, kingking said:

The tactic still applies to lesser teams,

Do you have some examples of this you can share, which show these lesser teams dominating possession and how you have gone about it?  Lots of people in this thread don't use elite teams so it would be interesting for them to see the different techniques you are using to dominate.  As I said back at the start of the thread, there is more than one way to go about achieving this, so please do share your different experiences at that level.

One other thing I would like to understand.  When you say:

3 hours ago, kingking said:

You guys are making tactics more complicated then it needs to be lol.

Can you please explain this better?  When you say "complicated", in terms of what?  If you look through my explanations you'll see I use very few tactical instructions, so how are you interpreting this as being complex?

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