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herne79

Developing my 4123DM Wide ("Tiki-Taka")

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2 hours ago, nitido said:

In support.

image.thumb.png.b7ca9bae1e994c2f55b7500b0a7d882a.png

 

In the player instructions, the IF in attack remains wider, while the AP remains more closed.

 

Okay, this setup looks slightly more balanced, at least in terms of roles and duties.

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Thanks for the help, I will comment on the results and how the game was developed.

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On 31/01/2019 at 19:42, herne79 said:
Spoiler

 

Putting it all Together

I've strung this out long enough ;).

But if you think you're going to get a screenshot of a complete tactic I'm afraid you might be disappointed.  I've blanked out some of the tactical settings from the screenshot below, the reason for this is twofold:

1)  I have a set framework (the visible parts below) but within that framework some parts are fluid.  So I may start some matches with different settings and/or I may change something during a match.  They are not big changes by any means - a change of role or duty here, and TI change there.  I will adjust mentality regularly however.  Rest assured however I'll go into detail on all of this below.

2)  I don't want people looking at a tactic and attempt to copy it.  That's not what the thread is about and if I did post something like that I'm certain the system wouldn't work effectively because they'd miss all the changes I do.

V4ZgfaK.png

I'll start from the top.

Mentality

This varies from Cautious to Positive.  If I'm concerned about playing Liverpool away I may choose Cautious.  If I'm feeling bullish, I'll go with Positive.  If I think I'm getting swamped in a match, I may change it.  If a team I expect to attack me are standing off, I'll attack them.  If I'm struggling to get my attack working I'll tend to turn up the risk factor a notch.  But whenever I change Mentality I always change other settings as well.  I've touched on this already - for example I'll use an attack duty in midfield with Cautious but knock it back to support with Positive.  Or I'll change the play out of defence/work ball into box.

In Possession

Commonly used Team Instructions are:  Work Ball Into Box; Play out of Defence; Shorter Passing; Lower Tempo; Dribble Less.  All of these can help with possession.  All of them at the same time is overkill, especially with the Cautious mentality (not enough penetration).  Dribble Less is almost always used as I only want specific players doing that (see below).  WBIB/PooD are usually adjusted as mentality changes (discussed previously).  Shorter Passing or Tempo (never together as Passing impacts Tempo anyway) are used typically from the start to get my passing game going and reviewed throughout the match as scoring chances do (or don't occur) or my possession is unsatisfactory.

In Transition / Out of Possession

Previously discussed.

Player Roles

STC - CF(s); DLF(s); or Poacher.  Regardless of role, additional PIs always used are: Close Down More and Roam from Position (for CF & Poacher).  Arnie will typically play as either a CF or DLF, Chicharito as a Poacher or CF.  I usually want to encourage movement in my front players to help them find pockets of space and link better with their team mates.  I'll only tend to use Poacher if I'm hunting a goal towards the end of a match (very rare).  Pressing is used to get the player involved when possession is lost to attempt to win the ball back high up the pitch.

AMR - Trequartista (attack).  Additional PIs used: Cross Less; Cut Inside; Sit Narrower.  This is a little Messi inspiration and Yarmolenko nails the role.  He attacks with Flair and Pace, is capable of playing killer through balls and isn't too shabby in defence/pressing either.  15 goals and 9 assists in 22 Premier League games.  Links beautifully with the striker especially.  Yarmo also has a great set of Traits - Cuts Inside of the right; Plays one twos; Curls ball; Comes deep to get ball.

AML - Inside Forward (s).  Additional PIs used: Roam; Close Down More; Sit Narrower.  Hopefully you've seen the runs and goals Anderson has been involved in above.  Great at getting into threatening positions and combines well with the striker and midfield.  Good Traits too: Moves Into Channels (which gives him an extra string to his movement bow); Tries Killer Balls Often (so a pseudo playmaker); Knocks Ball Past Opponent (which combined with his dribbling ability makes him lethal).

Front 3 - Overall then, you'll notice they are all set to roam around to look for space (unless I use the DLF and only when I want to make him more static).  All 3 of them have Flair to spare and both wide layers are perfectly capable of getting into dangerous positions with the ball and then making a killer pass.  Both wide players are additionally told to sit narrower - this helps with possession in this system by being a little closer to central players and gives a little more room to the fullbacks when they get forward.

MCL - Advanced Playmaker (attack); AP(s); or Central Midfielder (attack).  Additional PIs:  Roam from Position; Close Down More.  I'll typically use the AP role, adjusting duty according to mentality and/or the player used (previously mentioned).  It's a great link up role to the front 3 and whilst he doesn't usually play the final killer pass, he'll be bossing things from behind.  Roaming again helps him to be available for a pass, and targeted additional pressing helps the intended high press.  I'll switch to CM(a) if I feel we're really lacking in goal action and can provide an additional threat / runner from deep.

MCR - 90% of the time will be a CM(s); otherwise a BBM.  Additional PIs: Roam + Close Down More.  I umm'd and ahh'd about this role probably more than any other.  It started life as a DLP(s) (some Xavi inspiration) and whilst possession was good, the role felt a little too static for my liking in this system.  I could also see there was no real need for a 3rd playmaker in the setup (which discounted the RPM role) and with a player at DMC I discounted a midfield ball winner.  CM(s) with additional roaming and pressing is a good all rounder and links play well.  A BBM will occasionally be used if I want even more forward thinking, but that's very rare.

DMC - Defensive Midfielder (defend).  Additional PIs: Take Fewer Risks.  There purely to provide defensive cover and lay off the ball to his midfield partners.

DL - Fullback (s); Inverted Wingback (s).  Additional PIs: Take Fewer Risks; Cross Less.  I'll only use the IWB role if the MCL has an attack duty and I want to get an extra body in midfield.  I don't want this role overly attacking as that might promote additional crosses that I want to discourage.  Mainly there for midfield support and the occasional foray forward.  Both fullbacks (Cresswell & Masuaku) both have the trait to get forward often which can be useful.

DCL/R - Central Defender (d) x 2.  Additional PIs:  Take Fewer Risks.  A plain old defender.  No real frills but still capable of making the odd longish pass.

DR - Fullback (s).  Additional PIs:  Take fewer risks; cross less.  Similar to the DL, however this role is mainly driven by the player used - Zabaleta.  His technical and mental abilities are still second to none, but he's now well short of Pace so giving him an attack duty or a more aggressive wingback role could be asking too much of him.  Solid in defence, good in support.

Goalie - Goalkeeper (d).  No additional PIs.  I play with a pretty high defensive line usually so I could use a Sweeper Keeper.  This was something I watched out for when developing the system but honestly there was just no need.  I could give him a PI to shorten his passing but possession is good plus it opens up options, especially with all the roaming going on in midfield and up front.

 

 

Great read, really got me into trying out tactics for myself instead of downloading finished articles.

 

I am however curious when it comes to learning about how to adapt the idea to different teams. Are there any PPMs that are a big no-no for a position, and are there any more preferable ones for the other positions?

e.g Am I right thinking that Busquets has all the right PPMs for the DM-role? "Stays back at all times", "rarely runs with ball" and "plays simple passes". While someone like Ramires, who has "gets forward whenever possible" is less suitable for that position?

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On 31/01/2019 at 19:42, herne79 said:

In Possession

Commonly used Team Instructions are:  Work Ball Into Box; Play out of Defence; Shorter Passing; Lower Tempo; Dribble Less.  All of these can help with possession.  All of them at the same time is overkill, especially with the Cautious mentality (not enough penetration).  Dribble Less is almost always used as I only want specific players doing that (see below).  WBIB/PooD are usually adjusted as mentality changes (discussed previously).  Shorter Passing or Tempo (never together as Passing impacts Tempo anyway) are used typically from the start to get my passing game going and reviewed throughout the match as scoring chances do (or don't occur) or my possession is unsatisfactory.

 

Honestly this is the most important part about creating a possession / tiki taka based tactic. There are many options to increase possession, but using all of them or too many is a complete overkill.

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25 minutes ago, nitido said:

 

Thanks for the help, I will comment on the results and how the game was developed.

You're welcome mate, though it was no particular help. Just a passing comment. I am not sure how much I can be of help when it comes to possession-based football, as I play in a different way :brock:

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Luizinho said:

I'm soo disillusioned at the moment as I cant to get any kind of consistency. Playing as Barca and try to apply certain principles to my Barca save. After a really positive 1-0 defeat of Napoli at Home, we lose 0-3 away at Real Sociedad. To be honest, one goal was a counter from our own corner and another was a set-piece; but I'm not confident going into games. Without watching the match, can anyone see any glaring issues here? My BBM has 'Get Further Forward' to try and add some penetration (which I think is an issue).

Edit: I've also just noticed I attempted just under 60 crosses, even though I tell the Wing-backs and WIngers to cross less.

 

fm 1.PNG

fm 2.PNG

First of all - most FMers have been there (disillusioned, frustrated) but it's part of the learning curve. 

Now to your tactics - I see the issues. Before you read the below, watch these 2 videos: 

and this video 

 

 The weaknesses in your formation is not so glaring but they are there.

1. Midfield:

Problem >>> Your players are playing in the right positions but the midfield is not as it should be. They are too deep and too narrow. 2 of them are basically play-makers which is not a bad thing however their attributes does not suggest they will get forward to score or neither create chances in the sweet-spot of the midfield which is in front of the oppositions 18-yard box. The Half-back will drop too deep without contributing to the attack (it is not a bad role but bad for what I believe you are trying to achieve). The DLP on support will not get forward but will stay closer to the Half-back which means you will control the game from deep with no immediate threat to exploit spaces behind oppositions defense and will largely rely on long range passes to compensate for reaching the attackers which means there will be more times giving the ball away than finding an accurate pass. The BBM - again not a bad role but with DLP and HB sitting too deep, he is the only one trying to make forward runs from deep (does Vidal have the legs to get up and down the pitch???). All these combined with lower tempo, shorter passing and Play-out-of-defense makes for a weak attacking threat. Your football will not be penetrating enough. 

Solution >> Leave the Half-back as is. Make Rakitic an Advanced Playmaker (he will get more forward with still fulfilling some defensive responsibilities). Make Vidal a Mezzala on Support (and find another player who is more attacking and creative to play that role - you can even try Coutinho there). The Mezzala will support the striker and Right Side Attacker

 

2. Defense

Problem: all is fine with the exception that the 2 full backs are doing the same thing. Try to Mix and match. 

Solution: Change Roberto to IWB/FullBack on Defense or Support - he will cover for the CMR. Don't use 2 wing backs at the same time for what you are trying to achieve.

 

3. Attack

Problem: too narrow and too disconnected from the midfield. 

Solution: swtich Messi to a Winger on Attack - trust me on this. Been there and done it and you will see a change. This is mainly because he is a lefty and will still cut inside but at a more dangerous angle.

Make Suarez a DLF on support or a False Nine

 

4. Team Instructions: there are a lot of them which makes your attack slow and vulnerable to counter attacks. Remove Be More Expressive, Low Crosses, Shorter Passing for initial action and watch the game closely. Also, when playing away from home play on a balanced mentality. 

 

some of the ideas are out of the box but give it a try!!!

 

PS: this was done in a hurry however give this a try and share feedback. 

Edited by Trimisiyu

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Posted (edited)
On 04/03/2019 at 14:41, Trimisiyu said:

First of all - most FMers have been there (disillusioned, frustrated) but it's part of the learning curve. 

Thanks for the detailed reply @Trimisiyu

I guess it's worth pointing out that I'm not trying to directly replicate Herne's system, but merely trying to apply some of the principles. Upon reflection and re-reading the thread, I've removed some of the TIs (as like @CARRERA echoed earlier, too many is overkill). I've removed Lower Tempo which has helped, as we were moving the ball to slowly and it was quite easy to defend against.

My thinking, which will hopefully explain my role/duty allocation, was the following... I knew I wanted to play Messi as a Treq in the AMR position, to recreate the role he's been playing in recent seasons. I want him to be the hub of the team and have complete freedom to roam and be a creative force. A Treq is also an assigned playmaker, so allows the team to naturally look for him more. He should also be goal threat by getting into the box when necessary. I then wanted Coutinho to do a similar jump on the left-hand side, looking to drop a little deeper to offer an additional passing option for the defence/midfield and help us overload the opponents in the midfield area. Finally Suarez as CF (S) to be all round striker, dropping deep and into channels, but also getting the box to be a direct goal threat.

Vidal as B2B as it suits his attributes, but I also don't think a playmaker role (like a Mezzella) would make sense. I have Messi performing this role in that area and I feel it would make us very toothless, as it would be two playmakers effectively playing in the same area. A B2B would be a more direct runner, but also an option to the back three (DC, HB, DC) when the HB drops into defence. Otherwise I feel there could be a real disconnect between my defence and attack, with only my DLP being a 'link'. Also, I like Vidal in the MC postion as he helps with the pressing game (work-rate 20).  I do appreciate my midfield 3 is quite passive, behind a relatively passive front 3, so this is something I need to think about. 

The two Wingbacks add width, as my AML & AMR are asked to sit narrower and I want to make sure I'm stretching the play. On the left-side, I now have my fullback as WB (A) to try and actively exploit the space Coutinho vacates and I've had some good combination play so far.

I do agree I lack penetration, as I effectively have 3 playmakers (DLP, IF (S) and Treq) across the team which is probably overkill. Again, this is something I'll need to think about.

Edited by Luizinho

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I am curious about your midfield roles. Have you tried both BWM/S and CM/S or A ? If so, have you noticed anything different ?

I am toying with the idea to switch my BWM to a CM just so I can get rid of "tackle harder". Since I am using rather more creative midfielders in the BWM role with "Tackling" around 12-14, they do get a lot of yellow cards. 

In terms of winning the ball and pressing the opponent, are there any differences you might have noticed ?
 

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Posted (edited)

Hi herne - really great thread. I am currently Napoli playing this same formation albeit slightly differently. Obviously playing in Italy the most common formation I face is 3 at the back with wing backs - pretty much a back 5. 

I often struggle the most to break these teams down. 

I'd love to hear your thoughts (or anyone else with insights) on how you would 'adapt' to this formation. Sometimes the opposition even line up with 2 defensive midfielders in front of the back 3 which denies the striker of ANY space. 

My standard roles are: 

SK

FB - S

BPD - D

BPD - D

WB - A

DLP - D

BBM - S

CM - A

W - S

IF - A

CF - A

Any tips would be appreciated!

Edited by Shirts

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On 10/03/2019 at 04:11, Shirts said:

Hi herne - really great thread. I am currently Napoli playing this same formation albeit slightly differently. Obviously playing in Italy the most common formation I face is 3 at the back with wing backs - pretty much a back 5. 

I often struggle the most to break these teams down. 

I'd love to hear your thoughts (or anyone else with insights) on how you would 'adapt' to this formation. Sometimes the opposition even line up with 2 defensive midfielders in front of the back 3 which denies the striker of ANY space. 

My standard roles are: 

SK

FB - S

BPD - D

BPD - D

WB - A

DLP - D

BBM - S

CM - A

W - S

IF - A

CF - A

Any tips would be appreciated!

Clearly not Herne, but I'd say a BBM-S/CM-A pairing in a 433 is a bit too aggressive if attempting to play a possession-based game. Both roles are 'runners', which may leave the DLP at the only player able to recycle the ball and initiate attacks. Another thing to mention is that your left side looks very attacking - (WB-A, CM-A and IF-A), and they're not really creating space for one another, with the CM-A and IF-A, in particular, looking to use the left half-space/central area. 

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On ‎12‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 19:33, scratchmonkey said:

I'd been stockpiling exceptional attacking talent, talent that almost entirely across the board had low-ish (~9-12) levels of Aggression and Bravery. I didn't really notice until I could observe that our pressing in the high block was consistently breaking down

I meant to highlight this yesterday when I added my "like".  Thought this particular observation was very good and is easily done as you start finding better technical players.

Good post.:thup:

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On 03/02/2019 at 21:35, faith7777 said:

Fair enough, I will do that.

link?

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Posted (edited)

I've had a lot more consistency since I last posted, by simplifying my approach and applying the theory and discussion from this thread. Keeping it simple has been the key for me so far in achieving what I wanted. Thanks again @herne79

For those interested, I've settled on the following set-up with an already very good Barca squad:

891458735_setupnew.thumb.PNG.82527e2c25ab6948be2591b592fbd6ce.PNG

I have my IF (s) on the left to ‘stay wider’, which creates more space for the CM (a) to attack. The CM (a) does change to a Mezzala (a) depending on personal available. The Inverted Wing-Back allows me to have an aggressive CM and the balance works great on the left with the IF (s) keeping the width.

Really happy with the football I'm playing and I've had the following results so far:

fixtures.thumb.PNG.863639930b682275831a8ff8f0ca1a70.PNG

Suarez has been in great form:

saurez.thumb.PNG.01203530fabf841ff0fac5803e069a03.PNG

The only negative has been my most recent fixture against Atletico Madrid, in what was our first big away fixture of the season. Despite a really positive 2-0 win at home against them earlier this season where they SUS with a 4-4-1-1 shape, we were most definitely outplayed away against their 4-4-2. It was thanks to a Messi inspired performance that we were able to grab a 2-2 draw. I struggled to work out where it was going wrong for us and ended up switching to Cautious and trying to clinged on.

I’ve got some big games coming up with Real Madrid & PSG, so I’ll need to be better at spotting where things are breaking down in tough away games. I considered changing my RPM to a DLP (s) and my WB (s) to a FB (s) to try and get a bit more structure/discipline.

1560380877_at2.thumb.PNG.be02f22f322df0c90a166438b579ee6c.PNG

Edited by Luizinho

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Posted (edited)

Above all excellent topic. I've learned a lot from him and I've even been quite successful overall with what I've created. My problem is really the advanced one. I can not put it to work as I see it here. Any additional tips?

 

Edit: Both of my IF are scoring for "fun" and the striker get some assists but goals no

Edited by PequenoGenio

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9 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Advanced forward? Or what?

Bad english sorry. Is my foward

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I think with those roles, getting assists rather than goals is a feature rather than a bug (that is to say, that's expected behavior, they're going to be dropping deeper (especially in the new ME update) and looking to lay on either a paired forward or players making runs from midfield).

If you want more goals from the lone striker position, I'd suggest trying a DLF(A), depending on the attributes of the player(s) involved. Posting your tactic and screenshots of the player attributes would help a lot as well.

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Posted (edited)

Just thought I'd share two observations from my match and see how or if I can rectify my system to better deal with Atletico's 4-4-2, when I next play them in the league. I also don’t want to comprise the football we want to play by changing to much to the opposition and sacrificing our attacking play. 

The following screenshot was the main issue I was having over the course of the match, which I wasn't sure why would happen. One of the advantages I had over their system was I had an extra man in central midfield (3 vs 2).

96631965_atlat1.thumb.PNG.af6036b87a6d5ba8d698457585634fad.PNG

However as you can see in the screenshot above, all three of midfielders are drawn to the ball and my DMC (Halfback) is caught way out of position. Griezmann and Costa had acres of space to drop into to receive the ball and ball of central defenders out with them.  My Halfback is instructed to 'close down less' to avoid this. Busquets is a clever player, so this shouldn't be an issue and doesn't have any weird PPMs. Bit confused how I could of fixed this other than putting a second DMC alongside him, but then I'm compromising my system to much I feel.

The second observation I had, which again I'm not sure how I could of fix is highlighted below.

1229306917_atlat2.thumb.PNG.f8c0cc699344f48e4b8c7dc05a3ec710.PNG

Atletico retain the ball from a throw-in and Jaunfran puts a good ball into Griezmann who is unmarked, despite having five players around him. Frustrating as Pique and Lenglet are good markers and I'd expect this to be dealt with. Perhaps can put this down to good 'movement' from Griezmann combined with a lapse in concentration from all my defenders :idiot:. They put a lot of crosses in (44) and were successful 12 being successful. They have good crossers of the ball, so perhaps defending wider and closing down their fullback is something for next time.

Any thoughts of the above would be really helpful :thup:

 

Edited by Luizinho

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7 hours ago, Luizinho said:

Just thought I'd share two observations from my match and see how or if I can rectify my system to better deal with Atletico's 4-4-2, when I next play them in the league. I also don’t want to comprise the football we want to play by changing to much to the opposition and sacrificing our attacking play. 

The following screenshot was the main issue I was having over the course of the match, which I wasn't sure why would happen. One of the advantages I had over their system was I had an extra man in central midfield (3 vs 2).

96631965_atlat1.thumb.PNG.af6036b87a6d5ba8d698457585634fad.PNG

However as you can see in the screenshot above, all three of midfielders are drawn to the ball and my DMC (Halfback) is caught way out of position. Griezmann and Costa had acres of space to drop into to receive the ball and ball of central defenders out with them.  My Halfback is instructed to 'close down less' to avoid this. Busquets is a clever player, so this shouldn't be an issue and doesn't have any weird PPMs. Bit confused how I could of fixed this other than putting a second DMC alongside him, but then I'm compromising my system to much I feel.

The second observation I had, which again I'm not sure how I could of fix is highlighted below.

1229306917_atlat2.thumb.PNG.f8c0cc699344f48e4b8c7dc05a3ec710.PNG

Atletico retain the ball from a throw-in and Jaunfran puts a good ball into Griezmann who is unmarked, despite having five players around him. Frustrating as Pique and Lenglet are good markers and I'd expect this to be dealt with. Perhaps can put this down to good 'movement' from Griezmann combined with a lapse in concentration from all my defenders :idiot:. They put a lot of crosses in (44) and were successful 12 being successful. They have good crossers of the ball, so perhaps defending wider and closing down their fullback is something for next time.

Any thoughts of the above would be really helpful :thup:

 

Any more PI's? I would like to give this a try

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11 hours ago, Luizinho said:

as you can see in the screenshot above, all three of midfielders are drawn to the ball and my DMC (Halfback) is caught way out of position

 

On 15/03/2019 at 02:34, Luizinho said:

891458735_setupnew.thumb.PNG.82527e2c25ab6948be2591b592fbd6ce.PNG

It's quite expected to happen, given that you play a high-pressing game, with both lines set to much higher + more urgent press + counter-press. Atletico under Simeone are precisely the kind of side that look to exploit such a style of defending.

11 hours ago, Luizinho said:

My Halfback is instructed to 'close down less' to avoid this

The pressing PI works in interaction with the related TI, so in this case "less" is obviously not less enough.

 

11 hours ago, Luizinho said:

Atletico retain the ball from a throw-in and Jaunfran puts a good ball into Griezmann who is unmarked, despite having five players around him. Frustrating as Pique and Lenglet are good markers and I'd expect this to be dealt with

I guess you don't use OIs? I always set positional OIs for oppo strikers "always mark tighter" and "show onto weaker foot", and when their striker(s) is/are really good and dangerous players, I also add the "Tackle easy" player OI. Of course, no instruction alone will guarantee it will work as you expect, because everything in a tactic is interrelated. 

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3 hours ago, False 9 said:

Any more PI's? I would like to give this a try

Nothing that hasn't been discussed on this thread in regards to roaming and closing down. (ie. I use 'more urgent pressing', then ask specific defensive players to close down less (DMC & DCs)).

Feel free to try it, but honestly I don't see the appeal. All the roles that I'm using are specific to my players (Coutinho as an IF (s), Vidal as an CM (a), Saurez as an CF (s), Rakatic as an RPM). Not sure who you're managing, but I recommend using roles that compliment you're squad. Also a lot of teams sit back against Barcelona, so it's built around with that in mind (being the aggressor). :thup:

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

It's quite expected to happen, given that you play a high-pressing game, with both lines set to much higher + more urgent press + counter-press. Atletico under Simeone are precisely the kind of side that look to exploit such a style of defending.

Yes I agree and it's important to factor to bear in mind that that their system could be well suited to deal with a high press. However, personally I feel there's a good balance of roles in my set-up to not leave the team too exposed, should possession be turned over. If I drop the high press/defensive line, I'd be ripping up the play book that has brewed a lot of success so far. Any suggestions on what could be changed, without sacrificing the system too much?

Quote

The pressing PI works in interaction with the related TI, so in this case "less" is obviously not less enough.

Busquets and my central defender's closing down is set to around 33% of the closing down 'bar', which personally I'm pretty comfortable with to be honest. I don't think this explains him being so out of position. Perhaps we were in a counter-press transition? Having watched the replay back we had lost possession prior to this, but I don't think we were 'counter-pressing' as such. Could be something to remove in tough away games, as your right, it is an aggressive instruction and does leave you exposed (especially against top opposition).

Quote

I guess you don't use OIs? I always set positional OIs for oppo strikers "always mark tighter" and "show onto weaker foot", and when their striker(s) is/are really good and dangerous players, I also add the "Tackle easy" player OI. Of course, no instruction alone will guarantee it will work as you expect, because everything in a tactic is interrelated. 

I feel Tight Marking their strikers would only exaggerate the issue of my defenders being dragged out of position. With my DMC going walkabouts and providing zero support/cover during the screenshot, I don't want my central defenders aggressively marking and being potentially pulled further out of position! Upon reflection I don’t entirely understand how my defenders allow Griezmann an opportunity, other than a missed interception or a similar uncontrollable action.

Edited by Luizinho

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1 hour ago, Luizinho said:

If I drop the high press/defensive line, I'd be ripping up the play book that has brewed a lot of success so far. Any suggestions on what could be changed, without sacrificing the system too much?

Of course that a top team like Barca can afford to impose its game on the vast majority of opposition and does not have to adapt its tactic to them in most cases. But at the same time, it's quite logical that even top teams need to adjust the tactic slightly when playing against other top sides (in Barca's case, these include Real, Atletico and a couple of others).

 

1 hour ago, Luizinho said:

I feel Tight Marking their strikers would only exaggerate the issue of my defenders being dragged out of position.

There is a difference between "mark tighter" PI and "Always mark tighter" OI. I was talking about the latter. When you set the OI "always mark tighter", it does not drag your CBs out of position (unlike the PI, which can drag them out). The TM OI basically tells your players in general that they should look to mark the related opposition player/position when he enters their respective area (zone) of defensive responsibility. So if the oppo striker drops deeper, it will not be your CBs who will follow him and thus leave their positions, but (usually) your DM or some other midfielder. 

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1 hour ago, Luizinho said:

Busquets and my central defender's closing down is set to around 33% of the closing down 'bar', which personally I'm pretty comfortable with to be honest.

The pressing bar (both for the team and players) is different in FM19 than it was in FM18. In FM19 the "close down less" will always be displayed as "33%", regardless of what the team instruction is set to. But "33%" with more urgent team pressing is still higher than "33%" with standard or less urgent team press. I hope I managed to explain the difference.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

There is a difference between "mark tighter" PI and "Always mark tighter" OI. I was talking about the latter. When you set the OI "always mark tighter", it does not drag your CBs out of position (unlike the PI, which can drag them out). The TM OI basically tells your players in general that they should look to mark the related opposition player/position when he enters their respective area (zone) of defensive responsibility. So if the oppo striker drops deeper, it will not be your CBs who will follow him and thus leave their positions, but (usually) your DM or some other midfielder. 

Interesting, as I do want my DMC to mark the space their dropping into. With the above in mind, what scenario wouldn't want to use the 'always mark tighter PI' OI on opposition strikers? It's something I will experiment with in the future.

10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The pressing bar (both for the team and players) is different in FM19 than it was in FM18. In FM19 the "close down less" will always be displayed as "33%", regardless of what the team instruction is set to. But "33%" with more urgent team pressing is still higher than "33%" with standard or less urgent team press. I hope I managed to explain the difference.

Wasn't aware of this. I've been basing my thinking on the bar representing the closing down intensity. @herne79 could I get confirmation on this please? :)

Edited by Luizinho

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36 minutes ago, Luizinho said:

I've been basing my thinking on the bar representing the closing down intensity

It does represent the CD intensity, but you obviously misunderstood what I said/wrote. Imagine this situation: you set the team pressing intensity to more urgent, then you go to your CBs' player instructions and lower the bar to less urgent. But then you go again to the team instruction and lower the team pressing to less urgent or standard (for example). The pressing bar in your CBs' PIs will still display "less urgent" (or 33%), but they will now actually press comparatively less than with more urgent team pressing. And of course, any change in mentality will also affect pressing levels, both for the team and each individual player within the system.

 

42 minutes ago, Luizinho said:

With the above in mind, I don't see why/when you wouldn't want to use the 'always mark tighter PI' OI on opposition strikers?

I always use the "mark tighter" OI on opposition strikers, but I never use the PI "specifically mark an oppo striker". I may sometimes - though rarely - use the "mark tighter" PI for my CBs, but I never tell them to specifically mark an opposition striker or any other player/position. 

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Posted (edited)

So I've been trying to achieve this style of football for a while however struggling to make anything stick! This thread has definitely helped improve things. I've had a decent start to the season (W5 L2). However I'm just not creating good chances. Having watched games in full it was clear in those 5 wins I was riding my luck and eventually it ran out as I've just lost to Stoke away. A game in which I had to settle for 49% possession. My problem is creating CCCs having seen only 3 in 8 games (2 of which were in the same game). My base tactic is below, however the roles do change from game to game. 

20190317191737_1.thumb.jpg.ded33baa1e5be13cb0ca9a28c0b55a43.jpg

 

Eggestein is usually a CF(S). Kangin on the left switches between a Winger on support or attack and sometimes a Treq and is my top scorer so far. The midfield Horta is always the AP but duty changes as does the CM which is either Harry Winks or Zaniolo. Squad and key attributes are below and I've also included screenshots of my front 5 as they should be the key to it all.

20190317194552_1.thumb.jpg.733777b7f61ab3774a52f3888efe1af0.jpg

20190317191822_1.thumb.jpg.c99c0377668ed254420221096622be94.jpg

20190317191841_1.thumb.jpg.75a75ef4411b0ab623466fa02d1c1b14.jpg

20190317191832_1.thumb.jpg.32c9b1d1b52423d21044f59fd2db39cd.jpg

20190317191841_1.thumb.jpg.3409412b5dda6b8a4b2bd107ae8aed61.jpg

20190317191848_1.thumb.jpg.ca5b2dbdc4e027f890ca672802246c2a.jpg

20190317191909_1.thumb.jpg.4940024ee7273fc058267f2c47f7869e.jpg

 

I can't seem to create any decent space for anyone to exploit. I've used roam PIs on all of the front 5 to aid possession but it usually ends up in the two CMs just passing it between them until one of them fires of a shot from range. Horta does have the "Shoots from distance" trait but to be fair to the guy, there aren't many options for him. The centre seems to get congested very quickly with both wide players coming inside looking for a pass. 

 

Anyway, I was hoping to get some suggestions on improving the penetration to create more good chances. But also, any explanations on why I'm struggling for possession stats as well? I'm just struggling to properly dominate as I want to.

As a side note, I struggle to get the striker scoring or generally involved at all.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

Edited by alanfishead

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@alanfishead Looking at your 5 players from the screenshots you posted above, I think your tactic needs just a few small tweaks to be really good. However, I wouldn't insist on possession-based football at all costs. Don't know though how good the rest of your squad are, but these 5 guys are quite good.

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14 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

@alanfishead Looking at your 5 players from the screenshots you posted above, I think your tactic needs just a few small tweaks to be really good. However, I wouldn't insist on possession-based football at all costs. Don't know though how good the rest of your squad are, but these 5 guys are quite good.

Thank for the reply. I'd be interested to know your opinion on tweaks and style of football. I can provide more screenshots if that's helpful! 

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10 minutes ago, alanfishead said:

Thank for the reply. I'd be interested to know your opinion on tweaks and style of football. I can provide more screenshots if that's helpful! 

No problem, I'll be glad to help as much as I can, but I think you should start a separate thread, because it would be a bit inappropriate to use Herne's - or anybody else's - thread for discussing tactical issues that each of us personally may have. And yes, it would be great if you provided more player profile screenshots :thup:

Of course, if you would like to play exactly the possession style explained by Herne in this thread, then he can certainly give you much better advice than me :)

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Em 15/03/2019 em 20:24, scratchmonkey disse:

I think with those roles, getting assists rather than goals is a feature rather than a bug (that is to say, that's expected behavior, they're going to be dropping deeper (especially in the new ME update) and looking to lay on either a paired forward or players making runs from midfield).

If you want more goals from the lone striker position, I'd suggest trying a DLF(A), depending on the attributes of the player(s) involved. Posting your tactic and screenshots of the player attributes would help a lot as well.

d8e6a2e4a82cf8cb878735bc786cb714.png

The AP sometimes is AP(a)

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4 hours ago, PequenoGenio said:

The AP sometimes is AP(a)

Could you post screenshots of the strikers that you play as CF(S)? My best guess is that since you're very narrow and looking to pin them down around their own area, that your striker is spending most of his time being double-or triple-marked by CBs and would get almost all of his goals off of the odd counters that you spring.

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1 hora atrás, scratchmonkey disse:

Could you post screenshots of the strikers that you play as CF(S)? My best guess is that since you're very narrow and looking to pin them down around their own area, that your striker is spending most of his time being double-or triple-marked by CBs and would get almost all of his goals off of the odd counters that you spring.

Volland or Edson Edouard

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5 minutes ago, PequenoGenio said:

Volland or Edson Edouard

(For those wondering, Odsonne Edouard is who the second player is in the English FM db.)

First of all, they strike me as pretty different players, and CF(S) seems like more of a median point between the roles that they would do best in, I understand wanting to have the stability of just swapping in players for a given "role"; I would consider changing up the role/mentality based on the player, especially if you want to see your striker scoring more, as CF(S) is a secondary position in terms of goal-scoring, as I said above, getting loads of assists and not goals would be intended.

Volland I would play as a Pressing Forward on Attack, his strengths are are his incredible mentals and played with this role/mentality, he'll relentlessly press the backline, drop deep, and aggressively attack in a direct-ish manner when you have the ball. I don't doubt he'll still get his fair share of assists; he should get more goals than the CF(S) either by forcing mistakes in dangerous areas from his pressing or just in the general run of play, since the PF(A) tends to act almost Poacher-like in my experience.

Eduoard, on the other hand, is more of a classic "second striker" and would work better as a Deep-Lying Forward either on Support or Attack, although I would plump for the latter if you want to see more scoring from the position. I really don't think he has the mentals to play as either a CF(S) or a PF(A) effectively, so you're better off asking him to try and come and get the ball, then drive at the defense with the ball at his feet. He's creative enough that he should still be able to bring in your AML into the game as well.

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5 minutos atrás, scratchmonkey disse:

(For those wondering, Odsonne Edouard is who the second player is in the English FM db.)

First of all, they strike me as pretty different players, and CF(S) seems like more of a median point between the roles that they would do best in, I understand wanting to have the stability of just swapping in players for a given "role"; I would consider changing up the role/mentality based on the player, especially if you want to see your striker scoring more, as CF(S) is a secondary position in terms of goal-scoring, as I said above, getting loads of assists and not goals would be intended.

Volland I would play as a Pressing Forward on Attack, his strengths are are his incredible mentals and played with this role/mentality, he'll relentlessly press the backline, drop deep, and aggressively attack in a direct-ish manner when you have the ball. I don't doubt he'll still get his fair share of assists; he should get more goals than the CF(S) either by forcing mistakes in dangerous areas from his pressing or just in the general run of play, since the PF(A) tends to act almost Poacher-like in my experience.

Eduoard, on the other hand, is more of a classic "second striker" and would work better as a Deep-Lying Forward either on Support or Attack, although I would plump for the latter if you want to see more scoring from the position. I really don't think he has the mentals to play as either a CF(S) or a PF(A) effectively, so you're better off asking him to try and come and get the ball, then drive at the defense with the ball at his feet. He's creative enough that he should still be able to bring in your AML into the game as well.

My intention is to create something more "universal". I know that i nedd to adjust each game but without making a load of adjustments

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So, 

i decided to tweak my tactic, that i show in post in page 4 of this thread, simply because i would like to accommodate a MEZ in my setup. I also decided that, if needed to achieve a solid tactic, i would mind to drop my possession percentage.

I also wanted to give it a go with the DLF(s), that had his movement improve after the last patch.

After some experiments, i come up with this setup:

DLF(s)

IF(s)                                     W(a)

DLP(s)          MEZ(s)

WB(s)     CD(d)       BPD(d)     FB(s)

SK(s)

I left to the minimum the TI's:

Mentality: Balanced

In Possession: Play Out Of Defence, Be More Expressive

In Transition: Counter-Press

Out Of Possession: Much Higher D-Line, Much Higher LOE

 

I gave some players some PI's:

The front 5 players are instructed to close down more

The IF(s) is instructed to sit narrower

The HB(d) is instructed to shoot less

The WB(s) is instructed to stay wider

 

Now, about result...they are great so far.... I'm playing with Benfica, in the portuguese league. 25 games played overall.... 22 wins, 3 losses, all in the champions league: Ajax in the champions league playoff, and with away at PSG and Galatasaray in the group stage of champions league.

My defence, is rock solid. i've conceded only 13 goals in 25 games, and in the portuguese league i've only conceded 2 goals in 12 games!

But, and theres always a but, i'm not scoring that much. 21 goals in 12 games in the league and a overall of 49 goals in 25 games. Too many 1-0 wins

I dominate the games, i have more possession, more shots, usually aroung +20. But usually my "long shots" percentage is around 50%, i create few CCC and half chances.

From my point of view, i have the margin to risk more, to score more, even if because of that i will conceded more in some games.

And this is the key point were i ask for your advice. What could i chance to make my tactic take a bit more risk.

I've try increasing the mentality to Positive/attacking without obvious results (in this situation i've drop the tempo a little bit). I've try changing the MEZ(s) to attack without any results. I've try changing the IF(s) to a RAUM. 

I think i setup a very balanced tactic that fit very well my team and players, but in almost every game i get that feeling that the player should play better and in some games i'm not getting the 3-0 or 4-1 win that we suppose to get.

So any ideas?

 

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34 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

And this is the key point were i ask for your advice. What could i chance to make my tactic take a bit more risk.

I've try increasing the mentality to Positive/attacking without obvious results (in this situation i've drop the tempo a little bit). I've try changing the MEZ(s) to attack without any results. I've try changing the IF(s) to a RAUM. 

Several things, I use a similar setup, you just need to consider how the combination in midfield is working. It's very similar to mine, but i use it in a different way to create space for the IF(A) to score, in your setup you are doing it for the W(A) to deliver crosses, you need to find some way to get the IF(S) into the box early. This could happen with an overlap on the WB or a more aggressive duty which will make you revisit the role in the DM slot.

With my Liverpool side i play the 4141 on attacking or very attacking mentalities and all i do to break defensive sides is evaluate which duty needs to go on attack and whether i need to send more fullbacks camping in the opponents half. You don't need to drop your possession numbers we are doing something like 85% pass conversion as a team and hovering around 70% possession for most games playing on attacking or very attacking mentalities. Your issue is the lack of options in creating chances, and you don't need to play on a much higher defensive line to control matches. If your team can't control matches on a higher defensive line playing a DM role then the midfield probably has issues in terms of player quality or player selection mismatches.

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1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Several things, I use a similar setup, you just need to consider how the combination in midfield is working. It's very similar to mine, but i use it in a different way to create space for the IF(A) to score, in your setup you are doing it for the W(A) to deliver crosses, you need to find some way to get the IF(S) into the box early. This could happen with an overlap on the WB or a more aggressive duty which will make you revisit the role in the DM slot.

So, let's see if I understand your word correctly... 

I need to get my IF(s) quicker in the box, so I can do this by, a) giving him a attack duty or, b) despite maintaining him on a support duty but giving him the instruction to make more forward runs. 

Or I can give my WB(s) a attacking duty, something that will also make my IF(s) get into the box earlier, but by doing that I need to change my DM role for something more aggressive in the midfield line, like a DM(d). 

And  I could also increase my overall mentality, but I should drop my d-line. 

Is this correct? If so, just tell why is the HB(d) a bad choice to control in the DM position, is it because he will drop too much? 

Thks in advance 

 

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I just want to say that this thread helped me out a ton. I finally got bored of downloading tactics and this opened my eyes on a lot of things. I used the whole preseason testing things with York City and it wasn't until the very end of preseason where i finally found a tactic that worked for me. No badges and sunday league player and i ended up going 33-8-1. The one lose was the last game of the season (still pissed about that). But i scored 96 goals and only allowed 27. I averaged 61% possession. I have done other saves with downloaded tactics but was never this dominant. And that was because i finally figured out something that was good for my team. I played 8 preseason games, and some people try to make the change for a couple of games and immediately ask for help on what to do despite not testing long enough. Utilize the preseason! And utilize games you are winning(also crucial for me) to test new things out.

All of Hernes suggestions to increase possession are awesome, but when he says watch the first ten minutes to figure out how the tactic is working was extremely helpful.  Using all of the tips he suggested, lead me to having high possession numbers, but we weren't creating goals and making the decisions i wanted the players to make. But by slowly watching the game play out, helped me figure out what changes i needed to make. I am not going to say what worked and what didn't for me, but it was the whole testing phase of the preseason, and making small changes, and seeing how my team reacted to those changes here and there and adding more changes.  I beat Coventry city in the second round of the FA cup, and lost to huddersfield 3-2 in the third round by simply watching what was happening and adjusting.

Also, the other people who posted in this thread contributed to helping my knowledge as well so I want to thank everyone. My goal was to understand the game better and quit using broken downloadable tactics, and this thread did just that. Cheers!

 

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1 hour ago, SdsuRaiders said:

The one lose was the last game of the season (still pissed about that)

The last game?  Ouch :(.

1 hour ago, SdsuRaiders said:

making small changes, and seeing how my team reacted to those changes here and there and adding more changes.

Absolutely spot on, great job :thup:.  Make too many changes too quickly and you'll never know what's going on.

  (And welcome to the forum btw :)).

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On 19/03/2019 at 17:38, Keyzer Soze said:

So, let's see if I understand your word correctly... 

I need to get my IF(s) quicker in the box, so I can do this by, a) giving him a attack duty or, b) despite maintaining him on a support duty but giving him the instruction to make more forward runs. 

Or I can give my WB(s) a attacking duty, something that will also make my IF(s) get into the box earlier, but by doing that I need to change my DM role for something more aggressive in the midfield line, like a DM(d). 

And  I could also increase my overall mentality, but I should drop my d-line. 

Is this correct? If so, just tell why is the HB(d) a bad choice to control in the DM position, is it because he will drop too much? 

Thks in advance 

 

Personally, I think Rashidi is saying you may need to adjust some of your roles and duties, depending on what you want and who you want your main goalscorer to be. Currently, you're overloading the left-hand-side (DLP-S+IF-S) which in turn frees up the W-A for a cross on the other side. However, you may not consistently have players in the box to for these crosses, as both the IF-S + DLF-S will attack the box a bit later, plus crossing against defensive teams isn't the most effective route to goal. There are various TI tweaks available, but I'd start with focusing on who the main goalscorer is and how you want your goals to be scored.

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6 hours ago, jc577 said:

Personally, I think Rashidi is saying you may need to adjust some of your roles and duties, depending on what you want and who you want your main goalscorer to be. Currently, you're overloading the left-hand-side (DLP-S+IF-S) which in turn frees up the W-A for a cross on the other side. However, you may not consistently have players in the box to for these crosses, as both the IF-S + DLF-S will attack the box a bit later, plus crossing against defensive teams isn't the most effective route to goal. There are various TI tweaks available, but I'd start with focusing on who the main goalscorer is and how you want your goals to be scored.

Thing is, the W(a) is not only putting crosses in the box. In fact he is my main goal scorer, with 20 goals by February. This could be also related with the "get into the box" that he has. 

I know that @Rashidiwords are more a guideline, and not some mandatory rule that must be blinding followed, I was just asking if I was understating correctly the hipotheses that he suggested. 

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38 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

Thing is, the W(a) is not only putting crosses in the box. In fact he is my main goal scorer, with 20 goals by February. This could be also related with the "get into the box" that he has. 

I know that @Rashidiwords are more a guideline, and not some mandatory rule that must be blinding followed, I was just asking if I was understating correctly the hipotheses that he suggested. 

Yes its meant to guide people to something that i see which is very obvious. But, it really is only a personal preference. Here though i wasn't referring to the W(A) but on the Mez/DLP, personally i would have them the other way around, because the potential of how the IF(S) and the Mez can work together is delicious. However, its not necessary, since you could also get interesting variations with a Mez(W) plus your winger has get into box and this may give him a different dynamic when it comes to player movement. Basically with that role the Mez can operate to control the half space which the DLP would not be doing. So yes, there are many ways to skin the cat. 

Personally if i were to set it up i would go for mez/if with the WB on attack. yes its very aggressive which is why i would look at the role in the DM slot and look for something very conservative. And, this does depend on the kind of players you have. With my Man city replication i get the same kind of midfield consolidation phases that city gets but i play with a different role there.

869501441_Halfspacecontrol2.thumb.jpg.6c99313f61afa274400012e2ce7c3802.jpg

267163224_ManCitycontrollingspaces.thumb.jpg.9a1622a565df6e2586543e006c9f2cad.jpg

 

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32 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Yes its meant to guide people to something that i see which is very obvious. But, it really is only a personal preference. Here though i wasn't referring to the W(A) but on the Mez/DLP, personally i would have them the other way around, because the potential of how the IF(S) and the Mez can work together is delicious. However, its not necessary, since you could also get interesting variations with a Mez(W) plus your winger has get into box and this may give him a different dynamic when it comes to player movement. Basically with that role the Mez can operate to control the half space which the DLP would not be doing. So yes, there are many ways to skin the cat. 

Personally if i were to set it up i would go for mez/if with the WB on attack. yes its very aggressive which is why i would look at the role in the DM slot and look for something very conservative. And, this does depend on the kind of players you have. With my Man city replication i get the same kind of midfield consolidation phases that city gets but i play with a different role there.

869501441_Halfspacecontrol2.thumb.jpg.6c99313f61afa274400012e2ce7c3802.jpg

267163224_ManCitycontrollingspaces.thumb.jpg.9a1622a565df6e2586543e006c9f2cad.jpg

 

Is the player on the ball in that picture a winger in the AM strata? Do you find that it provides good enough width to the extreme that Man City wingers do?

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Yeah he started out wide then cut inside, but that image you see ...the team is already entering the penetration phase. We want them to stay wide in consolidation before penetration starts. And here I am after Guardiola's positional play which has the winger standing in the space between the left back and the left centre back, if he is too wide he only pulls two players out, if he is where i want him he pulls 4.

This is where he starts out with the ball

1164821613_Screenshot2019-03-21at4_52_18PM.thumb.png.e42e80be673144c95598bda74f40826e.png

This is from another phase in the match

1616361361_Screenshot2019-03-21at4_56_47PM.thumb.png.ad3c7fd496cfe00f35788a2b15152e57.png

And this is our attacking width setting

.1326353848_Screenshot2019-03-21at4_57_25PM.thumb.png.42ff6e8a5f610005ac211f36a33e60e0.png

Match played on very attacking mentality

582849885_Screenshot2019-03-21at5_01_00PM.thumb.png.f34191d0034fe29c7dbfa385fd6e279b.png

With the right distribution of roles and duties and depending on your team, its fairly easy in FM19 to play on very attacking mentality and generate high amounts of possession. When doing systems like this my goal is only to think about which two players are going to control the half space. These two players need to be in different blocks on the pitch but along the same vertical space. So in my image linked above it would be the W and the player behind him.

There are other elements of Guardiola's positional play, if this is the objective of the thread. His attacks are not slow, in fact he demands that they attack each line of defence quickly. I am pretty happy with this setup.

 

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Yeah sorry for hijacking the thread, but it’s a discussion about meaningful possession in FM, so I dont think discussing Guardiola’s positional og possession principles is so far off ;)

Salah seems pretty isolated, but it looks like he his attracting a lot of players to him. So moving the defense to one side of the pitch, I guess. :) 

One thing I find the hardest to replicate about Guardiola’s Man City in FM is to get 5(!) players to break ahead and move early high up the pitch and get between the lines while the 5 players behind builds slowly to find one of the 5 players between the lines. From there, the attack is really fast, as you write.

“With the right distribution of roles and duties and depending on your team, its fairly easy in FM19 to play on very attacking mentality and generate high amounts of possession. When doing systems like this my goal is only to think about which two players are going to control the half space. These two players need to be in different blocks on the pitch but along the same vertical space. So in my image linked above it would be the W and the player behind him”

The bold part you wirte@ why do the two half space players be on different blocks? What’s the purpose behind this?

 

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