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jujigatame

Might be done with FM, maybe forever

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I am at a total loss.  I've had a fun career that I've sunk over 200 hours into completely fall apart, and I have no idea why.  My first 4 seasons were relatively successful.  Each year I managed to qualify for either the CL or EL, which is a good result for Everton.  Then in my 5th season, we suddenly plummeted from 3rd to 8th in the last 10 matches or so of the season.  I barely held onto my job.  This is the season after:

Schedule.thumb.png.b122b60baefb3aa89d20f34d813aced9.png

As you can see, we started well with 3 narrow wins over big clubs, and 2 more substantial wins against smaller clubs.  Then everything went to hell.  These last several matches have been comical.  The ME keeps finding more and more bizarre ways for me to lose.  I was just drummed out of the FA Cup by Reading (who are a championship side) because my awesome left back newgen decided to intercept a long ball and then just sort of leave it in front of him for an attacker a few yards away to run onto and kick into the goal.  Every match the team falls further and further into a morale pit.  I try team meetings to improve morale to no avail.

I'm at my wit's end.  If I get fired, I don't think I'm ever going to play FM again.  I can't sink 200+ hours into a game that in the end is just going to make me lose over and over again for no discernible reason.  There are dozens of games out there I could be playing and actually having fun with rather than agonizing over.  Even in an ultra-hard game like Dark Souls I can practice and get better.  FM is just brutally penalizing me with no remedy in sight.

I know at its core this is just an extended whinge but I've just had it.  In 9 years of playing FM I've never seen anything like this.

Edited by jujigatame

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Mostly sympathy and an overall moan.  For 9 years FM has always been a constant for me and it would feel weird if I just quit permanently without writing anything about it, especially towards an audience who would "get it".  Hell, if I tell my wife I'm quitting FM she'd just say "it's about time!"

Although if anyone else has actually seen this sort of insane form spiral and managed to combat it successfully, it would be lovely if they could share their experience.

Honestly I would prefer if FM had a "no sack" mode where you couldn't be sacked.  Then you could be a little more free with experimentation and just enjoy the game in a relaxing way without worrying too much about whether a bad run of form will send 250 hours of your life directly into the crapper.

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1 hour ago, jujigatame said:

Mostly sympathy and an overall moan.  For 9 years FM has always been a constant for me and it would feel weird if I just quit permanently without writing anything about it, especially towards an audience who would "get it".  Hell, if I tell my wife I'm quitting FM she'd just say "it's about time!"

Although if anyone else has actually seen this sort of insane form spiral and managed to combat it successfully, it would be lovely if they could share their experience.

Honestly I would prefer if FM had a "no sack" mode where you couldn't be sacked.  Then you could be a little more free with experimentation and just enjoy the game in a relaxing way without worrying too much about whether a bad run of form will send 250 hours of your life directly into the crapper.

But there IS a "no sack" option.

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It sucks, but it happens. Part of your job is to get out of the bad bits of form as much as keeping the good times going. If you get sacked, you get sacked. It happens sometimes. I honestly think it is a little bit of an over reaction to quit the game forever because you experienced on half of a very bad season. It would be weird to quit playing the save, even. Although given you want a no sack option, just save the game at the start of every season/month or however long you find acceptable. If things go to hell, reload and try again. You keep the save you love, and you can keep the good times going.

If you want advice about getting out of the downward spiral, I can try that too. Go back to basics and focus on doing simple things. Especially just focus on draws. Be easy on your players, encourage them, praise them, etc. Do not be too harsh unless they really, really deserve it. One or two wins and everything will be okay again.

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Whats team cohesion like? I've found it to be very powerful in FM19. My team feels unbeatable when it gets to a certain point, but when it's low I can't seem to ever get consecutive good results. 

Edited by Lathund

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7 hours ago, jujigatame said:

Mostly sympathy and an overall moan.  For 9 years FM has always been a constant for me and it would feel weird if I just quit permanently without writing anything about it, especially towards an audience who would "get it".  Hell, if I tell my wife I'm quitting FM she'd just say "it's about time!"

Although if anyone else has actually seen this sort of insane form spiral and managed to combat it successfully, it would be lovely if they could share their experience.

Honestly I would prefer if FM had a "no sack" mode where you couldn't be sacked.  Then you could be a little more free with experimentation and just enjoy the game in a relaxing way without worrying too much about whether a bad run of form will send 250 hours of your life directly into the crapper.

Sometimes it would be nice to just play a one-club game where you go wherever the club goes. Maybe it could just force you create a new manager character each time you get sacked to keep histories and achievements separate. I don't like the current 'unsackable'  reward in FMT - doesn't feel right to just continue with a failing manager. Call it 'club mode' as opposed to current 'manager mode'

I've had death spirals like that in the past. I've never identified what conditions trigger it, but sometimes it seems the game generates a perfect storm of negative outcomes (maybe created by the rate of change in confidence and morale in relation to performance on the pitch?) and it is extremely difficult to turn around - normally you scrape a draw or two and then get a win an things pick up; sometimes you get the boot before that happens. 

In that situation I normally jump before I'm pushed, but if you are playing the club you support and have put a lot of time into the save being able to continue even through relegations would be good.

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7 hours ago, White Flag said:

But there IS a "no sack" option.

Is there?

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7 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

It sucks, but it happens. Part of your job is to get out of the bad bits of form as much as keeping the good times going. If you get sacked, you get sacked. It happens sometimes. I honestly think it is a little bit of an over reaction to quit the game forever because you experienced on half of a very bad season. It would be weird to quit playing the save, even. Although given you want a no sack option, just save the game at the start of every season/month or however long you find acceptable. If things go to hell, reload and try again. You keep the save you love, and you can keep the good times going.

If you want advice about getting out of the downward spiral, I can try that too. Go back to basics and focus on doing simple things. Especially just focus on draws. Be easy on your players, encourage them, praise them, etc. Do not be too harsh unless they really, really deserve it. One or two wins and everything will be okay again.

I've never managed more than 1 club in a single save.  Really I have no interest in it.  I've sunk 250 hours into this Everton career, having to start over with another team feels like a horrific prospect.  I may try save-spamming as you suggest but depending on how that goes things could get very joyless and time consuming, very quickly.

Edited by jujigatame

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4 hours ago, Lathund said:

Whats team cohesion like? I've found it to be very powerful in FM19. My team feels unbeatable when it gets to a certain point, but when it's low I can't seem to ever get consecutive good results. 

Match cohesion is "very good" and leadership support is "excellent".  Locker room atmosphere is down to "average" because of the horrific streak we're on.

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1 hour ago, rp1966 said:

Sometimes it would be nice to just play a one-club game where you go wherever the club goes. Maybe it could just force you create a new manager character each time you get sacked to keep histories and achievements separate. I don't like the current 'unsackable'  reward in FMT - doesn't feel right to just continue with a failing manager. Call it 'club mode' as opposed to current 'manager mode'

I've had death spirals like that in the past. I've never identified what conditions trigger it, but sometimes it seems the game generates a perfect storm of negative outcomes (maybe created by the rate of change in confidence and morale in relation to performance on the pitch?) and it is extremely difficult to turn around - normally you scrape a draw or two and then get a win an things pick up; sometimes you get the boot before that happens. 

 In that situation I normally jump before I'm pushed, but if you are playing the club you support and have put a lot of time into the save being able to continue even through relegations would be good.

In many ways I wish FM was a simpler game.  As in, the performances on the pitch were just attributes + tactics, and that's it.  The introduction of morale, motivation, cohesion, and all these additional factors just make it more and more difficult to explain what you see on the pitch.  The team seems like it can consistently create more chances than opponents (except big opponents like Liverpool/Tottenham/etc.) but the finishing is terrible, and opponents always find ways to score without chance creation:

- Set pieces
- Long shots
- Crazy dribbling runs, usually when a winger cuts inside and just blows by all defenders
- Bizarre defensive errors, frequently defensive headers into very dangerous areas

At first I used to get angry when I'd see this stuff, but now it's more like despair.  My head goes into my palm, I shake my head, and I hit continue not knowing what else to do.

I mean, maybe this is realistic.  It's not like a team with good players can't perform poorly for long stretches of time.  But as a game, it's not fun in the slightest, and it does feel like something in FM19 has made this sort of spiraling effect much stronger than in the past.  I've played since FM11 (I know many here have played longer than that) and I've never experienced anything quite this awful before.  And I've now experienced it twice in the same career!

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34 minuti fa, jujigatame ha scritto:

In many ways I wish FM was a simpler game.  As in, the performances on the pitch were just attributes + tactics, and that's it.  The introduction of morale, motivation, cohesion, and all these additional factors just make it more and more difficult to explain what you see on the pitch. 

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing... However it's what happens on the pitch that can get baffling...

How long can we live with the "it's likely a visual glitch" or "it's a known issue" or "it's a workaround to an almost unfixable problem" explainations we've been getting?

I've seen players do incredibly stupid things that can't possibly be justified by tactical instructions ets, unless we're back to the long-time problem of Tactical Creator not really translating its visuals into what you'd expect in the ME.

In short: I don't mind the psychological/mental bits, as long as I don't have to work around stuff like "wingers can't cross" or "lazy strikers loitering around in the box and doing nothing"

34 minuti fa, jujigatame ha scritto:

The team seems like it can consistently create more chances than opponents (except big opponents like Liverpool/Tottenham/etc.) but the finishing is terrible, and opponents always find ways to score without chance creation:

- Set pieces
- Long shots
- Crazy dribbling runs, usually when a winger cuts inside and just blows by all defenders
- Bizarre defensive errors, frequently defensive headers into very dangerous areas

At first I used to get angry when I'd see this stuff, but now it's more like despair.  My head goes into my palm, I shake my head, and I hit continue not knowing what else to do.

That's anyone's guess though...

Of course it can be your tactics, or some conflicting instructions, or the AP (S) role not working for your formation like you'd think it would etc... But I also maintain the quirky nature of the ME can indeed be frustrating.
However, I'm quite sure I've also been on the right end of some of those surreal situations, so I can't be a hypocrite and say the whole thing sucks etc.

Still, seeing you've been doing relatively better against Top Clubs, maybe it's a matter of the weaker opponents playing conservative and hitting you on the counter (or in some crazy situation)... Maybe you'd have tried to freshen things up with a bit of rotation and a new tactical approach...

Also, a quick reload after the Newcastle (or Preston) defeat'd have worked wonders for your team and for your sanity... As I've said many times, it's not cheating if it's single-player and you don't save scum every other game AND then brags about your 180 games undefeated streak (that'd have lasted 2 games without reloading).

 

 

34 minuti fa, jujigatame ha scritto:

I mean, maybe this is realistic.  It's not like a team with good players can't perform poorly for long stretches of time.  But as a game, it's not fun in the slightest, and it does feel like something in FM19 has made this sort of spiraling effect much stronger than in the past.  I've played since FM11 (I know many here have played longer than that) and I've never experienced anything quite this awful before.  And I've now experienced it twice in the same career!

 

Honestly I've never been in such a situation... Even with the crappiest side, I've always managed to steal an odd win or draw that kept things in check. But yes, losing streaks seem to have become much harder to handle and to rectify.

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For me the frustration is more that the play and the results of that play seem disconnected, and it kills the enjoyment of watching a match play out.

When you watch a game IRL the excitement builds with the quality of the attack.  In most cases you know whether the chance is going to come to something or not - so in many cases you know the goal is coming. You hear it in the crowd noise; feel it in the atmosphere if you're physically at a game.

As any filmmaker or musician knows excitement is a function of tension and release,  The drama of football comes in the same way, but the current ME too often fails to deliver on chances that are 'definite goals' and scores more often out of nothing situations that don't have any build-up to generate the pre-goal tension.  This screws with our perception of how football normally acts creating a very dull experience as after playing a fairly small number of games you are conditioned to stop expecting your good chances to result in anything.  This, more than anything, is why I think people find recent editions of FM so unsatisfying.

And it all started with the nerfing of strikers several iterations back to get the stats back in line without solving the underlying defensive and midfield play that was allowing too many good chances to occur.

 

Edited by rp1966

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7 hours ago, Carninho said:

Football manager simulation too close to the real thing... 🙄 

Play it out, if you get the sack move on and manage another team. 😀

Yeah. Getting sacked is part and parcel of it. As is struggling. It's almost forgotten how many actual managers are average or worse. Can't all be Guardiola. So help I can offer, sympathy I can't really say I have as that's the nature of the game which is a reflection of the sport itself. It's a bit "get on with it or get out of it"

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2 hours ago, jujigatame said:

Is there?

Yeah, you can do so via the in-game editor. 

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Thats actually the only big reason to leave FM , to have to pay for a no sack option.Yeah i know realis and all excuses to get ore one..i am Manager of a Premier league club , if i cna be that i should be not be allowed to get sacked and have a fuun game not caring to always be succesful to be able to manage the club i love. Its actually a basic thing to enjoy these kind of game. Being to invested forgetting ones live and yes having a run of bad succes is actually soething very else, but not having the basic fature for free to anage the club you love and just that one is actually a major dark spot on this game  which had always spoilt my fun tothe point i didnt buy past iterations and always consider and often decide against to get the new one just because of this. When buying a game i actually would like to be able to play it the style i want without additional purchases that should be basic options. I am have become cool though and i know only the wallett decides and it did and does negatively just because of this sometimes.

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I just don't get this at all. If that's your only problem, just quickly create a new manager and continue. Seriously, it takes 2 minutes. No offense, but this has to be the worst reason I have ever heard on these forums to criticize the game.

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2 ore fa, rp1966 ha scritto:

As any filmmaker or musician knows excitement is a function of tension and release,  The drama of football comes in the same way, but the current ME too often fails to deliver on chances that are 'definite goals' and scores more often out of nothing situations that don't have any build-up to generate the pre-goal tension.  This screws with our perception of how football normally acts creating a very dull experience as after playing a fairly small number of games you are conditioned to stop expecting your good chances to result in anything.  This, more than anything, is why I think people find recent editions of FM so unsatisfying.

This is actually quite an interesting point.

However, while momentum is a factor in football (you "feel" the goal is coming when a team has been dangerous and/or dominating), it's also a rather unpredictable sport.

In that vein, FM doesn't do a bad job at that, as you can easily see your side (or the opposition) dominate AND score for fun, while there are also "those games" when strikers can't hit a hangar door and the opposition will literally stumble on the ball and score their one and only chance.

Where I agree with you, however, is how inconsequential the matches are. Not just in a "that's not how I meant my team to play" way, like people have been complaining for ages regarding the Input/Output discrepancies between (alleged) tactical setup and ME rendition of said tactics, but also, and IMO mainly, when it comes down to presenting a coherent and sensible match.
It's even a bit difficult to explain properly. When you watch, say, Liverpool v Fulham, you expect the game to follow a certain path. Same goes for pretty much every club or kind of scenario... Top Club v minnows, open 'end-of-the-season' game, relegation battle etc... Of course it doesn't ALWAYS follow the expected pattern, but it's quite consistent and "predictable".

In FM instead it feels like a completely random experience. You're Man City facing Burton, it can end up with a life-like trouncing or with a tense affair you'll barely get out of with a win.
And the more evenly matched the two sides are, the most ridiculously "random" it gets.

Sometimes your team can't score despite creating 10 chances, and the ME looks actively out to screw you out of a goal (strikers hitting the woodork 3 times in the same move, shooting wide from a great position, keepers saving everything, players shooting instead of passing to an open teammate in the six-yards box...). Other times your technically gifted side can't string two passes together. Or, conversely, an abjectly poor CM pairing will play like they're Xavi and Pirlo, completing precise through balls for your mediocre striker. Who'll have a 120% conversion rate.

Long story short: in FM there is a general air of "randomness" that pervades the ME... A nothing-move can result in a goal, following a couple of unexpected events or a "it's a goal, surely!" attack will come to nothing because the winger fell asleep, the striker froze on the spot or the ACM decided to run himself into a dead-end.

 

4 minuti fa, bleventozturk ha scritto:

I just don't get this at all. If that's your only problem, just quickly create a new manager and continue. Seriously, it takes 2 minutes. No offense, but this has to be the worst reason I have ever heard on these forums to criticize the game.

Keeping the save going wasn't the issue here...

The OP was befuddled by how a stable and moderately successful career spiraled into a neverending winless streak basically out of nowhere for no apparent reason and with little chance to fix it.

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That randomness is an inherent part of football, you know. It's probably one of the most unpredictable sport disciplines in the world. 

That said, we don't know everything here. It could very well be that the OP overachieved the past few seasons and that he's just not able to cope with the fact that teams will set up more defensively against him due to his good results. 

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2 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

Sometimes your team can't score despite creating 10 chances, and the ME looks actively out to screw you out of a goal (strikers hitting the woodork 3 times in the same move, shooting wide from a great position, keepers saving everything, players shooting instead of passing to an open teammate in the six-yards box...). Other times your technically gifted side can't string two passes together. Or, conversely, an abjectly poor CM pairing will play like they're Xavi and Pirlo, completing precise through balls for your mediocre striker. Who'll have a 120% conversion rate.

Didn't your mother tell you a million times not to exaggerate when you were growing up? :D

Also, this notion that the match engine will be out to get you at random times is completely false. The ME cannot differentiate between AI-controlled and user-controlled teams. Now I'm certain that has been said a million times on these forums. :p

8 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

Long story short: in FM there is a general air of "randomness" that pervades the ME... A nothing-move can result in a goal, following a couple of unexpected events or a "it's a goal, surely!" attack will come to nothing because the winger fell asleep, the striker froze on the spot or the ACM decided to run himself into a dead-end.

Isn't that football, though? Every single week, you'll see goals come out of nowhere, and great attacking opportunities fizzle out due to human error. That happens at all levels of football.

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So you want to be successful EVERY single season and never experience a horrendous bad patch which can last from a week or two, or even months? I am glad the game is getting harder; after all, its football SIMULATION, and SI are striving to towards this more and more. #suchislife 

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Yeah. The one thing that needs pointing out is that the ME isn't out to get you. Has no idea who is who in terms of user and AI, or rather it doesn't differentiate 

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1 ora fa, CFuller ha scritto:

Didn't your mother tell you a million times not to exaggerate when you were growing up? :D

Also, this notion that the match engine will be out to get you at random times is completely false. The ME cannot differentiate between AI-controlled and user-controlled teams. Now I'm certain that has been said a million times on these forums. :p

12 minuti fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

Yeah. The one thing that needs pointing out is that the ME isn't out to get you. Has no idea who is who in terms of user and AI, or rather it doesn't differentiate 

 

1 ora fa, RBKalle ha scritto:

ME looks actively out to screw you

I didn't say it does screw us on purpose, just that sometimes it feels like it's doing so.

And yes, it's been made abundantly clear that the ME can't differentiate between Human and AI.

39 minuti fa, Preveza ha scritto:

So you want to be successful EVERY single season and never experience a horrendous bad patch which can last from a week or two, or even months? I am glad the game is getting harder; after all, its football SIMULATION, and SI are striving to towards this more and more. #suchislife 

Yeah no...

The moment you can achieve back-to-back Top4 finishes with Everton (not to mention the gazillions of "Conference-to-CL glory" or "Treble with Newcastle in Season 2" stories), realism is just a cool buzzword to justify some annoying quirks or some questionable choices in the game, while other aspects are happily (and rightfully) rooted in the Power Fantasy camp.

Such a poor run of form'd have been perfectly natural and acceptable, hadn't it come after four straight seasons of overachieving.

BTW, surely the OP has made some huge mistakes, because already relatively deep into a save, having enjoyed better-than-expected results, he'd have been in the clear already. Or at least still challenging for the usual Top4 positions.

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1 minute ago, RBKalle said:

 

I didn't say it does screw us on purpose, just that sometimes it feels like it's doing so.

And yes, it's been made abundantly clear that the ME can't differentiate between Human and AI.

Yeah no...

The moment you can achieve back-to-back Top4 finishes with Everton (not to mention the gazillions of "Conference-to-CL glory" or "Treble with Newcastle in Season 2" stories), realism is just a cool buzzword to justify some annoying quirks or some questionable choices in the game, while other aspects are happily (and rightfully) rooted in the Power Fantasy camp.

Such a poor run of form'd have been perfectly natural and acceptable, hadn't it come after four straight seasons of overachieving.

BTW, surely the OP has made some huge mistakes, because already relatively deep into a save, having enjoyed better-than-expected results, he'd have been in the clear already. Or at least still challenging for the usual Top4 positions.

Ok so you just expect him to continue overachieving for the next decade without a bad spell? Come on mate, this is football. Not netball

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1 hour ago, KlaaZ said:

That randomness is an inherent part of football, you know. It's probably one of the most unpredictable sport disciplines in the world. 

That said, we don't know everything here. It could very well be that the OP overachieved the past few seasons and that he's just not able to cope with the fact that teams will set up more defensively against him due to his good results. 

I mean I definitely overachieved at least a little bit for 2 straight seasons.  Everton doesn't usually qualify for the Champions League.  But that doesn't really explain a sudden mid-season disastrous drop like this.  Hell, two sudden mid-season drops in consecutive seasons!

I feel very confident this isn't a tactical issue.  I believe it is some combination of bad morale/motivation management and bad luck.  I'd be happy to ride it out but the impending sack doesn't really allow for that.

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i agree with the OP, you should quit, possibly forever. Just so im clear, im not agreeing with the reasoning, just the quitting 

Edited by Ross Ingersoll

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1 hour ago, Preveza said:

So you want to be successful EVERY single season and never experience a horrendous bad patch which can last from a week or two, or even months? I am glad the game is getting harder; after all, its football SIMULATION, and SI are striving to towards this more and more. #suchislife 

No, I don't want to be successful every season.  I just want to not be so disastrously terrible that I get sacked despite using the same tactics that got me perfectly decent results for 4 or 5 straight seasons.

Edited by jujigatame

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59 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Yeah. The one thing that needs pointing out is that the ME isn't out to get you. Has no idea who is who in terms of user and AI, or rather it doesn't differentiate 

I'm absolutely not saying the ME is out to get me, or making any claims about the ME "knowing" who I am and being biased in favor of the AI.  I'm sure it is possible for this very same thing to happen to AI-controlled teams.

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5 minutes ago, Ross Ingersoll said:

i agree with the OP, you should quit, possibly forever

You're sweet.

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You're not scoring enough for my money. You have the odd game you score a few but they seem very much against the trend rather than with it. So you need to look at what your team is doing on the attacking front.

Considering at times a single player in the right position can carry a team attacking wise if you've let a player leave or brought in a replacement for them and they don't do the same. There is a need to be looking more towards what you can create offensively for sure. If you can't score goals, you're never going to win matches. 

So what's changed, because a new signing or such really isn't working out for you.

- - -

For what its worth, football changes in your saves over time. Despite some of the great tactics dotted around on these forums last year on FM18, by far the most effective tactic to use in a 12/13 year period was a sweeper based system in my save. It was bizarre, yet the best way to play. And the time for that passed as well. 

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24 minutes ago, jujigatame said:

No, I don't want to be successful every season.  I just want to not be so disastrously terrible that I get sacked despite using the same tactics that got me perfectly decent results for 4 or 5 straight seasons.

Do you think real life managers use the exact same tactic as in plug and play every single game for years? Tactics get found out. Football, like other sports, get with the times and evolve. Change up a few things and I am sure you will be up there asap 

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hace 1 hora, Preveza dijo:

Do you think real life managers use the exact same tactic as in plug and play every single game for years? Tactics get found out. Football, like other sports, get with the times and evolve. Change up a few things and I am sure you will be up there asap 

Whatever is happening to @jujigatame, I'm not sure is tactical related. Unless using a terrible tactic, which doesn't seem the case according to his previous results, teams perform, at least, according to the quality of their players.

That doesn't mean you can't have a mediocre season or a bad run but seeing the sack because he didn't adapt would be weird, if his basic tactic is decent.

 

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2 hours ago, santy001 said:

You're not scoring enough for my money. You have the odd game you score a few but they seem very much against the trend rather than with it. So you need to look at what your team is doing on the attacking front.

Considering at times a single player in the right position can carry a team attacking wise if you've let a player leave or brought in a replacement for them and they don't do the same. There is a need to be looking more towards what you can create offensively for sure. If you can't score goals, you're never going to win matches. 

So what's changed, because a new signing or such really isn't working out for you.

- - -

For what its worth, football changes in your saves over time. Despite some of the great tactics dotted around on these forums last year on FM18, by far the most effective tactic to use in a 12/13 year period was a sweeper based system in my save. It was bizarre, yet the best way to play. And the time for that passed as well. 

I totally agree that I'm not scoring enough.  But I don't have a clear way to improve that.  My tactics are already relatively aggressive.  My attacking players aren't world-class but I don't have the money or reputation to remedy that.  The way I see my opponents scoring is largely through set pieces and other oddball scenarios that it's hard to exactly gameplan for.  So I'm at a bit of a loss.

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2 hours ago, Preveza said:

Do you think real life managers use the exact same tactic as in plug and play every single game for years? Tactics get found out. Football, like other sports, get with the times and evolve. Change up a few things and I am sure you will be up there asap 

It's not RL, it's a game.  Plenty (if not the vast majority) of FM players only use 2-3 different tactics in their career, with perhaps some minor variations.

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Just now, jujigatame said:

It's not RL, it's a game.  Plenty (if not the vast majority) of FM players only use 2-3 different tactics in their career, with perhaps some minor variations.

I am certain that a lot of people tweak their tactics more than you think. Yes its a game, but it should be more of a simulation of real football, and to have continued success without any slump, would be naive to think so. I want the days where you could use one tactic forever and have continued over achievement gone, because to be frank, that isn't true football simulation. If you want that, there is FM touch.

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I've replayed the same match (home vs. Chelsea) now 11 times and it's been a baffling ordeal.  I've been completely unable to win, going 0-6-5.  The results themselves are not so shocking (although I figured I'd win at least once) but what's shocking is that I managed to create more chances than them in the majority of the matches.  I'm not sure if this is unique to FM19 or it's something that's always been the case that I've never really paid attention to, but it seems like chance creation doesn't have a very strong correlation to actual results.

EDIT: Case in point, I replayed a 12th time which resulted in a heavy 4-1 loss.  Yet somehow I only lost 1-0 in CCCs, and actually had more HCs, 2-0.  It's like chances have become (or always were) a meaningless stat.

EDIT: 0-8-6 now.  14th attempt was a 0-0 draw where I won 2-0 in CCCs, 1-1 in HCs.

Edited by jujigatame

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5 hours ago, jujigatame said:

I've replayed the same match (home vs. Chelsea) now 11 times and it's been a baffling ordeal.  I've been completely unable to win, going 0-6-5.  The results themselves are not so shocking (although I figured I'd win at least once) but what's shocking is that I managed to create more chances than them in the majority of the matches.  I'm not sure if this is unique to FM19 or it's something that's always been the case that I've never really paid attention to, but it seems like chance creation doesn't have a very strong correlation to actual results.

EDIT: Case in point, I replayed a 12th time which resulted in a heavy 4-1 loss.  Yet somehow I only lost 1-0 in CCCs, and actually had more HCs, 2-0.  It's like chances have become (or always were) a meaningless stat.

EDIT: 0-8-6 now.  14th attempt was a 0-0 draw where I won 2-0 in CCCs, 1-1 in HCs.

Why are you replaying it. And why are you focusing on chance creation stats?

Just feels like you're replaying it for the sake of getting a positive result without actually knowing what you're doing. Which against Chelsea, seems like a waste of time. 

Of course it's a baffling ordeal. You're not scoring enough, you don't really know how to change that , you're playing a very good side. Why would you expect to win a tough game when you don't really know how you're trying to win it. 

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Look at Burnley last season, they were brilliant at times and finished in 7th place. This season however, they have really struggled. Same tactics, same players. 

Do you think Sean Dyche is questioning real life's match engine? These things happen.

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13 ore fa, Preveza ha scritto:

Ok so you just expect him to continue overachieving for the next decade without a bad spell? Come on mate, this is football. Not netball

And where did I say that?

The thing is: is the OP was able to overachieve from the get go with Everton, assuming he didn't bring in an entire starting XI of inconsistent players (who look good on paper but don't deliver on the pitch), there's little reason for him to go from Top3 to 2016-17 Sunderland.

If "realism" is the goal, he shouldn't have been able to qualify for the CL, barring the odd weird season. However, since "realism" is a bit of an on-and-off concept in FM, it's fair to assume a sudden and long-lasting collapse isn't common or expected.

Let's be honest: in a game where almost everyone can overachieve (often to ludicrously unrealistic levels), you can't blame someone for being surprised and a bit upset when his power fantasy crumbles like a house of cards a couple of seasons into it.

12 ore fa, Preveza ha scritto:

Tactics get found out. Football, like other sports, get with the times and evolve. Change up a few things and I am sure you will be up there asap 

Except tactics don't get found out in FM. That's just as much as a myth as the cheating AI.

What MAY happen is that AI teams tend to play more defensively against a side they perceive as "stronger", and if said team has been punching well above its weight, facing a more defensive opposition can create all sorts of problems.
Basically if you relied on counterattack and suddenly the opposition team is sitting back because they're "afraid" to concede, your plan goes begging and there isn't a viable alternative to break them down.

An alternate tactic is a smart thing to have, but not because AI adapts to what works. It's just because they go defensive against sides seen as better than them.

Edited by RBKalle

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I too feel that once you start losing it's incredibly difficult to pull out of it.

I should have realised there was a problem after I lost the first 10 games I played on FM19!  Obviously now they're my ex-club.

In my latest match, after I went behind in the 20th minute at home to Southport the match commentary said "Nuneaton seem to have absolutely no answers to their current predicament".  That 'current predicament' is 13 games without winning (D2 L11) and a drop from 9th to 19th in VNN.  I've tweaked and overhauled the tactics and tbh the only two draws I got were after replaying following defeats.  I'm expecting the sack now but I don't really care any more.  Three seasons in and I've converted decent players in my team to donkeys and allowed other teams to score worldies past me for fun.

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You're just saving and reloading seemingly trying to the same thing (or very similar) over and over again.

You're looking at headline figures but are you looking in the match analysis? It's very easy to create 40 shots a game, in fact it's one of the biggest issues I have getting to grips with each year. I can create tactics for fun that will pepper the goal with an inordinate amount of shots - from outside the box. At that point you're just hoping for some wonder goals. The aim is surely to be creating chances between the penalty spot and the goal, in my mind that's the "danger zone" of where the majority of good goalscoring chances are to be gotten. 

Passing combinations can also be very useful, what if your tactic is ostracising 2-3 players from build up player? What if it's actually holding 2-3 players back? Again, it's very easy to create a possession system that actually stops you attacking because players are needed further back up the pitch as part of your ball retention. This is far and away the best tactical insight, but for me I find I can start addressing a lot of my problems just by looking at passing combinations and shot spread in match analysis because theoretically in my mind I don't visualise how a PI or TI might impact the whole dynamic of the team - what I can work with though is seeing the outcome of what I've tried. 

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6 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Why are you replaying it. And why are you focusing on chance creation stats?

Just feels like you're replaying it for the sake of getting a positive result without actually knowing what you're doing. Which against Chelsea, seems like a waste of time. 

Of course it's a baffling ordeal. You're not scoring enough, you don't really know how to change that , you're playing a very good side. Why would you expect to win a tough game when you don't really know how you're trying to win it. 

I am replaying it just for the sake of a positive result, so I don't get sacked and can continue my career.  Although I'm also attempting to gather some information about how the ME works as I do so.  I'm not changing my tactics in any significant way with each attempt.

I'm focusing on chance creation because that's essentially how the game suggests you optimize your tactics, so I think there's value in examining how it actually relates to match results.

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4 hours ago, ExeChris said:

I too feel that once you start losing it's incredibly difficult to pull out of it.

I should have realised there was a problem after I lost the first 10 games I played on FM19!  Obviously now they're my ex-club.

In my latest match, after I went behind in the 20th minute at home to Southport the match commentary said "Nuneaton seem to have absolutely no answers to their current predicament".  That 'current predicament' is 13 games without winning (D2 L11) and a drop from 9th to 19th in VNN.  I've tweaked and overhauled the tactics and tbh the only two draws I got were after replaying following defeats.  I'm expecting the sack now but I don't really care any more.  Three seasons in and I've converted decent players in my team to donkeys and allowed other teams to score worldies past me for fun.

I got sacked four games later after 4 points in 17 games.  My last game was a 1-0 home defeat against 9 men.

They won the next game 3-0 including a goal for my striker who'd gone 22 games without scoring...

Edited by ExeChris

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2 ore fa, ExeChris ha scritto:

I got sacked four games later after 4 points in 17 games.  My last game was a 1-0 home defeat against 9 men.

They won the next game 3-0 including a goal for my striker who'd gone 22 games without scoring...

You got Mourinhoed...

If you can still reload, try to play with Instant Result and see how/if your AssMan wins it...

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3 hours ago, jujigatame said:

I am replaying it just for the sake of a positive result, so I don't get sacked and can continue my career.  Although I'm also attempting to gather some information about how the ME works as I do so.  I'm not changing my tactics in any significant way with each attempt.

I'm focusing on chance creation because that's essentially how the game suggests you optimize your tactics, so I think there's value in examining how it actually relates to match results.

1) Even a positive result may not save your career

2) What information are you trying to gather? At this point, its not about the match engine, its about your approach. I would start with your tactical set up, and the ability and state of your players

3) "I'm focusing on chance creation because that's essentially how the game suggests you optimize your tactics, so I think there's value in examining how it actually relates to match results." This isn't true. Stats are an output first and foremost, what you do with them is up to you. I've never worried about doing that, if i get the big picture right, by and large the results come. Your persistent slump says you've got far bigger issues than what qualifies as CC/HCs

You've replayed it like 15 times now. What sort of highlight level are you watching it on? When your attacks breakdown, are you pausing and having a look. Ditto when the opposition carve through you? 

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3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

1) Even a positive result may not save your career

2) What information are you trying to gather? At this point, its not about the match engine, its about your approach. I would start with your tactical set up, and the ability and state of your players

3) "I'm focusing on chance creation because that's essentially how the game suggests you optimize your tactics, so I think there's value in examining how it actually relates to match results." This isn't true. Stats are an output first and foremost, what you do with them is up to you. I've never worried about doing that, if i get the big picture right, by and large the results come. Your persistent slump says you've got far bigger issues than what qualifies as CC/HCs

You've replayed it like 15 times now. What sort of highlight level are you watching it on? When your attacks breakdown, are you pausing and having a look. Ditto when the opposition carve through you? 

1) It will save it at least temporarily, which is about all I can ask for.  It's either that or give up.

2) The stuff about the ME is really more for my curiosity than anything.  For instance, it took me 19 tries to finally win.  My given odds of winning the match were 4-1.  This seems a bit off.

3) It is true.  When you go to the tactics analysis screen, it measures the successfulness of your tactics by chances for/against.  In my experience with FM19, more so than any other year's installment of FM, is that chances created are a totally meaningless stat in relation to actual in-game success.  In fact chances in general seem to be in incredibly short supply.  I have a tactic that only allows a chance every 282 minutes, which seems kind of ludicrous and definitely not what I'm used to seeing on that screen in prior versions of FM.

I play on extended highlights.  I already mentioned the most common scenarios that I see producing goals.  Once in a while you see a nice counterattack or creative play but generally it is:

- Set pieces
- Long shots
- Blistering dribbling runs, almost entirely by wingers
- Strange defensive errors, usually headers into dangerous areas

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53 minutes ago, jujigatame said:

1) It will save it at least temporarily, which is about all I can ask for.  It's either that or give up.

2) The stuff about the ME is really more for my curiosity than anything.  For instance, it took me 19 tries to finally win.  My given odds of winning the match were 4-1.  This seems a bit off.

3) It is true.  When you go to the tactics analysis screen, it measures the successfulness of your tactics by chances for/against.  In my experience with FM19, more so than any other year's installment of FM, is that chances created are a totally meaningless stat in relation to actual in-game success.  In fact chances in general seem to be in incredibly short supply.  I have a tactic that only allows a chance every 282 minutes, which seems kind of ludicrous and definitely not what I'm used to seeing on that screen in prior versions of FM.

I play on extended highlights.  I already mentioned the most common scenarios that I see producing goals.  Once in a while you see a nice counterattack or creative play but generally it is:

- Set pieces
- Long shots
- Blistering dribbling runs, almost entirely by wingers
- Strange defensive errors, usually headers into dangerous areas

1) given that you're not learning anything, you'd likely lose the next game and get sacked anyway

2) if your approach is flawed, then odds don't really matter, you're going get stuffed regardless. Which is what's happening right here 

3) no, it really isn't. And your experience is colored by the fact you're stumbling along with an approach that is barely working for you. Hence the slump. Stop narrowly sticking to conclusions that aren't even accurate in the first place. 

4) extended doesn't actually show you that much. You should be watching on comprehensive. 

If you are genuinely trying to get out this slump, then I'd suggest being open minded. This isn't a freak bug costing you a goal or a game, it's a constant slide into decline. And that's entirely on you and the only way out, if there even is at this point, is to fundamentally reassess what you're doing. We still haven't seen how you're setup or the quality of players available to you 

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@jujigatame

I’ve not played FM now in a couple months or so, I can honestly say I don’t miss the scripted momentum tosh, if I load a game up, I don’t want to examine before things, for example, examining the next opponent, it’s like playing fifa and examining the opponent rather than JUST enjoying playing it your way. On FM you have to stick to what the developers believe in, you can’t put angry without a player then missing an open goal or your defence giving the usual off form penalty away within a couple games. I love the work S.I do, I love FM, but it is milleniums behind other games in the fun department, FIFA career is miles better, even New Star Soccer on phones is more fun, right now I play FC Pro chairman game where you start a club and you’re the chairman obviously by the name.. on this I have done 7 seasons today, Rocket League blows FM out the water in terms of fun, on FIFA you change mentallity based on the flow of the game, on FM, you change mentality, it disprups the players match understanding, if I loaded FM up now and my striker was off form and missed open goals or my off form team kept giving penalties away, i’d turn it off, because it might be realistic but it over emphasises things, I mean crosses have been broke for years on FMs aswell. 

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