Searching for a team performance

[dan_bre_1988]

I'm Man United, playing a 433 and whilst I'm getting the results, I'm struggling (other than beating Chelsea 4-0 3rd or 4th game in) to get a good team performance. I'm getting 2/3 playing a 7 or 8 (normally as they scored/assisted) and the rest are 6's usually.

Any advice on my tactics appreciated to try get more out the players. Cheers!

[Tyrinko]

15 hours ago, dan_bre_1988 said:

I'm Man United, playing a 433 and whilst I'm getting the results, I'm struggling (other than beating Chelsea 4-0 3rd or 4th game in) to get a good team performance. I'm getting 2/3 playing a 7 or 8 (normally as they scored/assisted) and the rest are 6's usually.

Any advice on my tactics appreciated to try get more out the players. Cheers!

You have AF who is far from teammates to support, next you have DM in defense role and another CM in defensive role. In transition who is supporting the front three? Maybe lack off runner from deep

[Experienced Defender]

What I like in your tactic:

- unlike most people (especially those managing big clubs), you aren't using (extremely) aggressive defending (like higher/much higher DL or LOE, extremely urgent pressing and counter-press) 

What I believe is/could be problematic in your tactic:

- as Tyrinko already noted, the isolation of the lone striker (AF), which is further compounded by the lack of deep midfield runners

-  AML as IF on attack and the striker as also being on attack duty (AF) are potentially incompatible, as both tend to attack similar zones (areas of space) in the final third, so a better option would be to either set the striker to support duty in order to create more space for the attacking IF or to set the IF (AML) to support duty instead

- it's not to say that AF is a "wrong" role for a lone striker, but if you want him on attack duty anyway, maybe you should consider some less "advanced" role (e.g. PF on attack or DLF on attack), so that his aforementioned isolation would be somewhat mitigated 

- why have you opted for the "Focus play through the middle" TI? Given that Man Utd is a top team, most opponents will look to defend against you and pack the defense exactly in the central areas you want to attack (exploit). Also bear in mind that "focus play down the middle" increases the mentality of CBs (and I think also of DM), which can make your defense potentially vulnerable to counter-attacks via balls over the top

- why (slightly) lower tempo? It gives the opposition enough/too much time to get (back) into their defensive positions and thus defend more effectively against you. I think United have good enough players who are capable of playing on a higher (or at least normal) tempo

[dan_bre_1988]

On 20/01/2019 at 22:52, Experienced Defender said:

What I like in your tactic:

- unlike most people (especially those managing big clubs), you aren't using (extremely) aggressive defending (like higher/much higher DL or LOE, extremely urgent pressing and counter-press) 

What I believe is/could be problematic in your tactic:

- as Tyrinko already noted, the isolation of the lone striker (AF), which is further compounded by the lack of deep midfield runners

-  AML as IF on attack and the striker as also being on attack duty (AF) are potentially incompatible, as both tend to attack similar zones (areas of space) in the final third, so a better option would be to either set the striker to support duty in order to create more space for the attacking IF or to set the IF (AML) to support duty instead

- it's not to say that AF is a "wrong" role for a lone striker, but if you want him on attack duty anyway, maybe you should consider some less "advanced" role (e.g. PF on attack or DLF on attack), so that his aforementioned isolation would be somewhat mitigated 

- why have you opted for the "Focus play through the middle" TI? Given that Man Utd is a top team, most opponents will look to defend against you and pack the defense exactly in the central areas you want to attack (exploit). Also bear in mind that "focus play down the middle" increases the mentality of CBs (and I think also of DM), which can make your defense potentially vulnerable to counter-attacks via balls over the top

- why (slightly) lower tempo? It gives the opposition enough/too much time to get (back) into their defensive positions and thus defend more effectively against you. I think United have good enough players who are capable of playing on a higher (or at least normal) tempo

My tactics are probably lost in translation. I'm not a massive player of FM due to time constraints (hence picking a big team that I know well)

I take the point about AF and going to try him on support. The idea was I want to dominate the ball, with intricate passes and play (1-2s, 3rd man runs) in final 3rd to open defense with through balls to Af and If(a) with the width coming from FBs. 

Lower tempo was for the aforementioned controlling possession. When I play high tempo players always seem to make silly passes, giving it away needlessly so I lowered tempo to try improve this.

[Experienced Defender]

21 minutes ago, dan_bre_1988 said:

I take the point about AF and going to try him on support. The idea was I want to dominate the ball, with intricate passes and play (1-2s, 3rd man runs) in final 3rd to open defense with through balls to Af and If(a) with the width coming from FBs.

You can achieve a lot of that with a CF on support or trequartista (who is on attack duty, but has complete freedom). And don't think that a striker with support duty is not going to get into the box and make himself available for through balls when an opportunity presents itself. It's simply in the striker's nature to attack the box 

 

25 minutes ago, dan_bre_1988 said:

Lower tempo was for the aforementioned controlling possession. When I play high tempo players always seem to make silly passes, giving it away needlessly so I lowered tempo to try improve this.

I didn't mean that you should play on extremely high tempo. Just higher or standard/slightly higher. And focusing play through the middle is limiting your options as well IMO. 

[dan_bre_1988]

18 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You can achieve a lot of that with a CF on support or trequartista (who is on attack duty, but has complete freedom). And don't think that a striker with support duty is not going to get into the box and make himself available for through balls when an opportunity presents itself. It's simply in the striker's nature to attack the box 

 

I didn't mean that you should play on extremely high tempo. Just higher or standard/slightly higher. And focusing play through the middle is limiting your options as well IMO. 

Thanks for the advice. I've tried Lukaku as a CFa and he's a big oaf. Doesn't contribute in general play at all and I don't see Rashford as being cut out for that role? Could try him as a trequartista I suppose.

I'll try standard tempo for a few games and see how it goes. The idea of focus play through the middle is my FBs are the only players who are providing natural width. The rest are looking to play in central areas so was hoping for one-twos and neat interplay as this suits Rash more than crosses into the box 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, dan_bre_1988 said:

Thanks for the advice. I've tried Lukaku as a CFa and he's a big oaf. Doesn't contribute in general play at all

I was talking about CF on support duty, not attack. Maybe Lukaku isn't the right choice for the role anyway. I don't know his attributes in FM19.

[dan_bre_1988]

13 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I was talking about CF on support duty, not attack. Maybe Lukaku isn't the right choice for the role anyway. I don't know his attributes in FM19.

I'll try him as a CFs. Do you think my midfield roles compliment each other ok? I keep switching Pogba between AP and Mezzala and unsure what role to give Herrera. I like the idea of Pogba being a mez but not sure if it clashes with the IFa (I have the IF on attack rather than support to get him further forward and nearer the AF)

[Experienced Defender]

Pogba can play almost any role in central midfield, but which one would be the best in your tactic depends on others (especially those around him). For example, I believe he would be very good as a RPM. But then again, he would probably be no less good as an APM (on either duty), or MEZ (on either duty). 

If you played Pogba as MEZ on support (MCL), he could work pretty well with the IFatt (AML), but then your left back should be more conservative, lest the flank be poorly protected against opposition counter-attacks. So the left back could then be a FB on either support or defend, a WB on defend or (my favorite choice) - IWB on defend. I hope you understand what I mean and why.

Regarding Herrera, can you post a screenshot of his profile? Because without knowing his attributes, I can hardly tell you which role(s) would suit him best within your system.

[dan_bre_1988]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

So the left back could then be a FB on either support or defend, a WB on defend or (my favorite choice) - IWB on defend. I hope you understand what I mean and why.

What are the benefits of IWB? That's the one role I've never really understood the purpose of and when/how to use him.

As for Herrera, I will post a ss of his profile tomorrow night when I can next get on. Cheers

[Experienced Defender]

1 minute ago, dan_bre_1988 said:

What are the benefits of IWB? That's the one role I've never really understood the purpose of and when/how to use him.

When the team is in possession, an IWB drifts inside (provided there is another wide player in front of him, either in wide midfield or in AMR/L position. When out of possession, he plays like a standard full-back/wing-back (i.e. protects his flank). In a system like yours (433), he can be very useful. For example, if you use a mezzala (MCL), an IWB (LB) on defend duty will occupy an area behind him and provide defensive cover (basically playing as an additional quasi-DM). But you can use him on support and attack duties as well, depending on the rest of your system. An example of how you can use an IWB on attack in a 433:

PFat

IFsu                                       Wsu

CMat      DLPsu

HB

FBsu       CD        CD       IWBat

 

[dan_bre_1988]

So IWB is best for styles which is possession based? 

Below is Herreras stats. What role do you think is best? I want to use Pogba as a mezzala and Matic as DLP (feel he offers more than if he was a HB)

[haagendasz]

If I may offer some opinions. i also have a save with ManU and with same formation. My standard formation as follow :

DR: WB-s ; DL: WB-a ; DC : both CD-d

DM: DLP-d or HB-d

MCL : MEZ-s ; MCR : BBM or BWM-s (vs tough opponent)

AML : IF-s ; AMR : AP-s or W-s

STC : CF-a or TM-a

When I have Pavard playing I have him as BPD-d, but when he misplaced a lot of passes then back to CD-d.

Herrera and Fellaini are always my BBM or BWM. Except when I don’t have players for DLP-d then Herrera goes there.

CF-a is always Sanchez, when Lukaku plays, he is TM-a.

AP-s on right winger is for Mata. Lingard goes there as W-s. 

Pogba always as Mezalla, sometimes as AP-a on MCL when I don’t have Mata playing.

If I need to be aggressive on the wing I chose CWB on support or sometimes attack depending on the opponent. But the duty is always opposite of the winger in front of him.

[dan_bre_1988]

17 hours ago, haagendasz said:

If I may offer some opinions. i also have a save with ManU and with same formation. My standard formation as follow :

DR: WB-s ; DL: WB-a ; DC : both CD-d

DM: DLP-d or HB-d

MCL : MEZ-s ; MCR : BBM or BWM-s (vs tough opponent)

AML : IF-s ; AMR : AP-s or W-s

STC : CF-a or TM-a

When I have Pavard playing I have him as BPD-d, but when he misplaced a lot of passes then back to CD-d.

Herrera and Fellaini are always my BBM or BWM. Except when I don’t have players for DLP-d then Herrera goes there.

CF-a is always Sanchez, when Lukaku plays, he is TM-a.

AP-s on right winger is for Mata. Lingard goes there as W-s. 

Pogba always as Mezalla, sometimes as AP-a on MCL when I don’t have Mata playing.

If I need to be aggressive on the wing I chose CWB on support or sometimes attack depending on the opponent. But the duty is always opposite of the winger in front of him.

How do you find that works for you? It's very similar to me really except I have Herrera as a CMs next to Pogba. What TIs do you have?

[Experienced Defender]

20 hours ago, dan_bre_1988 said:

So IWB is best for styles which is possession based? 

Not necessarily. You can use him in any tactical style if the role fits into the overall tactic and of course if you have the right player for the role. Don't use any role just for the sake of using it, but always look at the bigger picture (i.e. general context).

 

20 hours ago, dan_bre_1988 said:

Below is Herreras stats. What role do you think is best? I want to use Pogba as a mezzala and Matic as DLP (feel he offers more than if he was a HB)

Looking at Herrera in isolation, he can play a number of midfield roles - DLP, CAR, BTB. Now, if you want Matic as the DM in DLP role and Pogba as a MEZ, then I would play Herrera either as CAR or BTB, depending on the rest of your setup. An example:

TQ

IFat                                      IFsu

MEZsu     CAR

DLPde

   FBsu       CD      CD        FBat

Or (another example):

TQ

APsu                                  IFat

MEZsu     BBM

DLPde

       FBat     CDco    CDde       FBsu      

Or even:

TQ

APsu                                IFat

MEZat     CAR

DLPde/su

(I)WBde    CDco    CDde    WBsu

[dan_bre_1988]

Thanks for that. I will bear them points in mind and tweak my tactic 

Will let you know how I get on.

[haagendasz]

On 25/01/2019 at 18:01, dan_bre_1988 said:

How do you find that works for you? It's very similar to me really except I have Herrera as a CMs next to Pogba. What TIs do you have?

So far so good more than 70% win with this formation including some heavyweight opponents, sometimes I had troubles breaking down defensive opponents but with a little tweak I can managed that. I also have 2 different formations so this is my primary but I always change the formation depending on the opposition.

TI was, play wide (if opposition has 2 DM), shorter passing, work ball to box, play out of defense, counter, counter-press, take short kick, distribute to CB, higher LOE, standard defensive line, more urgent pressing, offside trap. 

TI is always changing depending on the opposition. If they are so defensive then WBIB and shorter passing are out of the window. I also lower the LOE to normal to draw them out.