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torchibo

4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 tactic feedback required

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The 4-3-3 should create possession but doesn't really work because my players lose the ball really quickly a.e because they shot long balls, furthermore, they can't get the opponents ball and because of these two, I have around 40% possession.

I imagine them to play like that (I don't want to show how EVERY attack has to be but to show every possible move to achieve a goal) :

Unbenan4nt.thumb.png.0725ea581301334b9709d9c2121194a9.png

The 4-2-3-1 should create a high pressing, attacking game but also doesn't work well.

I don't even know what exactly doesn't work with this tactic either. The players look crunched together, lose the ball quickly, can't get through the defense.

Unbenannt.png

Unbenannt2.png

Edited by torchibo

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The best piece of advice I can offer to you is that I think you would help yourself immensely if you played more of your players in the roles and positions they feel more comfortable with.

For e.g.

Lewandowski is not a complete forward and is even less of a False 9. Rodriguez isn't really a central midfielder (although he has played there in the past) he is far better suited to a number 10 role either in the CAM position or out wide. Finally, Robben is left footed so it makes no sense to play him as a winger on the right flank.  

You need to be more descriptive in defining how you want the team to play so that others can help you better, people can't help you build something if they don't know what you're trying to build. It would also be good if you posted some analysis of the games where you are observing the problems you stated. Also, what is your definition of attacking football? 

All the best

Edited by pheelf

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43 minutes ago, pheelf said:

The best piece of advice I can offer to you is that I think you would help yourself immensely if you played more of your players in the roles and positions they feel more comfortable with.

For e.g.

Lewandowski is not a complete forward and is even less of a False 9. Rodriguez isn't really a central midfielder (although he has played there in the past) he is far better suited to a number 10 role either in the CAM position or out wide. Finally, Robben is left footed so it makes no sense to play him as a winger on the right flank.  

You need to be more descriptive in defining how you want the team to play so that others can help you better, people can't help you build something if they don't know what you're trying to build. It would also be good if you posted some analysis of the games where you are observing the problems you stated. Also, what is your definition of attacking football? 

All the best

Of course, the players aren't in their best roles because of my priority to show the tactic itself and not with the fitting players.

 

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Without delving deeper into details, just take a look at the left side of your 4-3-3 tactic - all players are on attack duty (LB - WBa, LCM - APa & AML - IFa), meaning the left flank is completely open for the opposition to exploit and hit you on the counter.

And then, in a bottom-heavy formation such as 4231, you have as many as 3 out of (possible) 4 front players on attack again. 

So both your setups are very much unbalanced when it comes to roles and duties.

And all this without even a mention of team instructions, which are only making things worse.

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6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Without delving deeper into details, just take a look at the left side of your 4-3-3 tactic - all players are on attack duty (LB - WBa, LCM - APa & AML - IFa), meaning the left flank is completely open for the opposition to exploit and hit you on the counter.

And then, in a bottom-heavy formation such as 4231, you have as many as 3 out of (possible) 4 front players on attack again. 

So both your setups are very much unbalanced when it comes to roles and duties.

And all this without even a mention of team instructions, which are only making things worse.

Please elaborate on the Ti rather than making fun of them.

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2 minutes ago, torchibo said:

Please elaborate on the Ti rather than making fun of them.

He's not making fun of them. Just pointing out that the roles/duties are imbalanced in a way that there isn't going to be stability in your shape. Thus it likely isn't going to work well regardless of TI. 

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1 minute ago, VinceLombardi said:

He's not making fun of them. Just pointing out that the roles/duties are imbalanced in a way that there isn't going to be stability in your shape. Thus it likely isn't going to work well regardless of TI. 

Maybe I misinterpreted but If I ask for advice instead of a bit of advice I read ,, And all this without even a mention of team instructions, which are only making things worse. '' then it seems to pretty unnecessary and a bit like ,,mocking''.

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4 minutes ago, torchibo said:

Maybe I misinterpreted but If I ask for advice instead of a bit of advice I read ,, And all this without even a mention of team instructions, which are only making things worse. '' then it seems to pretty unnecessary and a bit like ,,mocking''.

His answer was perfectly fine.

If you want people to take you seriously and offer detailed advice, then you need to put effort in yourself. You've opened the thread looking for assistance yet haven't really given any details about what you are wanting, what the actual issues are, how long its been happening and so on. If you want detailed, useful replies then you yourself are going to have to put effort into the thread and ask specific questions too. You're the only person who access to your saved game. That means unless you give specific or add details about what you are wanting, people can only give you general meaningless advice. 

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6 minutes ago, Cleon said:

His answer was perfectly fine.

If you want people to take you seriously and offer detailed advice, then you need to put effort in yourself. You've opened the thread looking for assistance yet haven't really given any details about what you are wanting, what the actual issues are, how long its been happening and so on. If you want detailed, useful replies then you yourself are going to have to put effort into the thread and ask specific questions too. You're the only person who access to your saved game. That means unless you give specific or add details about what you are wanting, people can only give you general meaningless advice. 

As I said I don't think that his answer is fine but this thread shouldn't be about his comment.

I do have screenshots about how I imagine it to look like and the tactics itself and I'm asking for feedback on the tactic I've built. I've done it many times without stats and Experienced Defender even said that my Ti's are bad so you actually don't need the stats to give me feedback but if it helps I'm going to add some problems I saw.

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2 minutes ago, torchibo said:

As I said I don't think that his answer is fine but this thread shouldn't be about his comment.

I do have screenshots about how I imagine it to look like and the tactics itself and I'm asking for feedback on the tactic I've built. I've done it many times without stats and Experienced Defender even said that my Ti's are bad so you actually don't need the stats to give me feedback but if it helps I'm going to add some problems I saw.

Actually we do need the stats if you want helpful specific details. What Experienced Defender said is all general advice and he's just guessing at what the issues are. He's probably along the right lines but without actual details from yourself, it still is only a 'guess' on his part. 

Adding screenshots, stats, examples etc is more beneficial because people can give you proper answers then and give you information that actually applies to your save and help you fix your issues.

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43 minutes ago, torchibo said:

Please elaborate on the Ti rather than making fun of them.

I didn't make fun at all, and I'm really sorry if you understood my comment in that way. The reason I refrained from going deeper into detail - not only on TIs but also on roles and duties - is that people sometimes take suggestions literally. For example, I give someone just an idea of how he/she could (not should) set up roles, duties and instructions in a certain type of tactical system in order for it to be better balanced, and then they literally "copy and paste" these suggestions without even thinking about whether it would be suitable for their players, instead of taking my advice just as an example from which they can learn about basic tactical principles and then implement them based on the strengths and weaknesses of their squad.

I hope you understand what I mean :)

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28 minutes ago, torchibo said:

Experienced Defender even said that my Ti's are bad so you actually don't need the stats to give me feedback but if it helps I'm going to add some problems I saw.

I didn't mean your TIs are "bad" in and of themselves, but in the context of what was already mentioned in my post.

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3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I didn't make fun at all, and I'm really sorry if you understood my comment in that way. The reason I refrained from going deeper into detail - not only on TIs but also on roles and duties - is that people sometimes take suggestions literally. For example, I give someone just an idea of how he/she could (not should) set up roles, duties and instructions in a certain type of tactical system in order for it to be better balanced, and then they literally "copy and paste" these suggestions without even thinking about whether it would be suitable for their players, instead of taking my advice just as an example from which they can learn about basic tactical principles and then implement them based on the strengths and weaknesses of their squad.

I hope you understand what I mean :)

Ok, I'm glad we could clarify this problem.

I would prefer explanations rather than things I can copy&paste but I tried so hard and long (300hours without joy and success) that I believe I'm stupid for not understandings this game.

For me, the tactics above are almost perfect but then I see what they look like in game and they contradict completely with my image. I looked at every source even simple one like https://medium.com/@v_maedhros/understanding-roles-in-football-manager-and-real-life-part-1-73054cfbb303.

 

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On 19/01/2019 at 18:17, torchibo said:

Ok, I'm glad we could clarify this problem.

I would prefer explanations rather than things I can copy&paste but I tried so hard and long (300hours without joy and success) that I believe I'm stupid for not understandings this game.

For me, the tactics above are almost perfect but then I see what they look like in game and they contradict completely with my image. I looked at every source even simple one like https://medium.com/@v_maedhros/understanding-roles-in-football-manager-and-real-life-part-1-73054cfbb303.

 

I can only tell you that I learned most about FM (especially tactics) on this forum and watching Rashidi's videos on the "Bust the net" YT channel :thup:

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