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theriverman

Getting the most out of Chelsea, 4231 or 433

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So why exactly isn't this working? I was giving up to many goals so I moved my midfield pivot back to DM, but now I have trouble scoring. Other problems: never get a good performance from RB ever, defenders crowd the ball instead of man marking, striker inconsistent

My ideas:

-move RB to wingback also (ME seems to like this)

-move striker to CF

-lower tempo

-maybe get rid of shorter passing shout?

-maybe move my AMC back to M(C): AP (A)? I'm hesitant to do this because he was a huge goal scoring threat for me but I think it could make sense in the tactic.

I just finished the season 6th so I have to turn it around to keep my job. I'll have a good transfer budget and think Kante will get a good offer so I might move him and find an anchorman. Where else can I upgrade? Maybe might replace Morata, need to bring in better squad depth. I have 140 million pound transfer budget plus what I can get from moving on a few loan guys + drinkwater, Fernando (20 million), and possibly Kante.

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I read this thread and it helped a lot: 

But I sometimes have trouble translating ideas and tactics to the new match engine and tactic set up.

 

 

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Roles look a bit disjointed to me, minimal support roles there to help you with your possession instructions. With the players you have, I'd maybe try something like this; 

  • Azpilicueta to WB (S) - Pushing him forward a bit should give you a better outlet for your DMs in possession. He definitely has the attributes to be a decent outlet and crossing threat. 
  • I like the PF(A) role in a 4-2-3-1, maybe try that with Morata? Change Lucas Paqueta to AM(S) to better support the midfield.
  • Midfield looks off - Jorginho doesn't strike me as a VOL. Maybe Kante DM(S) and Jorginho DLP(S) if you're keeping them in the DM Strata.

 

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My ideas:

- Change DM-de to Anchor man: A segundo volante will be out position constantly. An anchor man prefers to hold on his position constantly. they work great together.

- Try to make your team fluidity more fluid: That is more effective for a short passing style

- More attacking right full back: Your right winger and right back will work more together. An full back attack duty and a winger with support duty will work great for a short passing style.

- AML to support duty: Same idea. Your AML also will be more likely to create chances. Your striker and AMC are currently looking to score, so i think you'll create a better balance in the attack.

I also recommend to remove the following team instructions:

- Pass into space

- Trow it long

- Distribute quickly

- counter

Play one match with this and then analyse your passing. If your players misplace to much easy passes, just let them play with an higher tempo. If the long passes don't work, play with an lower tempo.

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6 minutes ago, Spiegel said:

Roles look a bit disjointed to me, minimal support roles there to help you with your possession instructions. With the players you have, I'd maybe try something like this; 

  • Azpilicueta to WB (S) - Pushing him forward a bit should give you a better outlet for your DMs in possession. He definitely has the attributes to be a decent outlet and crossing threat. 
  • I like the PF(A) role in a 4-2-3-1, maybe try that with Morata? Change Lucas Paqueta to AM(S) to better support the midfield.
  • Midfield looks off - Jorginho doesn't strike me as a VOL. Maybe Kante DM(S) and Jorginho DLP(S) if you're keeping them in the DM Strata.

 

You don't think Jorginho can fill that role? It seems like he should be able to carry the ball forward and distribute. I have flirted with the idea of him as a DLP and that probably keeps him in position more.

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4 minutes ago, theriverman said:

 You don't think Jorginho can fill that role? It seems like he should be able to carry the ball forward and distribute. I have flirted with the idea of him as a DLP and that probably keeps him in position more.

I'm sure he'd be decent, but I don't think he has the athleticism and dribbling ability to be fully effective in the role. My idea of a VOL would be someone who's a sturdy enough defensive players (Jorginho is) but can break lines with their dribbling and offer a threat going forward (Jorginho isn't). Pogba's probably the best player I've used in the role if that gives you an idea of the skillset?

I'd look at going DLP(S) or maybe RPM(S) with Jorginho, but if you want to stick with VOL, Paqueta or even Barkley could work?
 

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1 minute ago, Spiegel said:

I'm sure he'd be decent, but I don't think he has the athleticism and dribbling ability to be fully effective in the role. My idea of a VOL would be someone who's a sturdy enough defensive players (Jorginho is) but can break lines with their dribbling and offer a threat going forward (Jorginho isn't). Pogba's probably the best player I've used in the role if that gives you an idea of the skillset?

I'd look at going DLP(S) or maybe RPM(S) with Jorginho, but if you want to stick with VOL, Paqueta or even Barkley could work?
 

I think I'll use him as a DLP and bring the AMC into a (S) role to link the offense and defense

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In terms of roles and duties:

- 3 out of your forward 4 are on attack duties, which is always problematic (unless you use some downloaded exploit tactic, but that's another story)

- From what I know about Jorginho, in this (deep 4321) system I would ideally use him as a regista (rather than volante)

- Hazard can play as an IF, but my preference would be either trequartista or APM on attack, so he would be the main source of creativity on the left

- As for the AM/ST combo, if one is on attack, the other would be on support (e.g. AMsu - DLFatt; or AMatt - DLFsu). I prefer to avoid giving a lone striker the AF role, because it usually makes him too isolated (though in certain systems can work)

- LB would be WB on support, rather than attack, so the left flank would be less vulnerable defensively

- DML (Kante) can remain a stadard DM, though I would rather opt for an anchor (again with the purpose of achieving better defensive stability)

Regarding team instructions:

- in possession: just play out of def and work ball into box and overlap left (everything else on default setting) for now; be more expressive can be added on occasion (watch the matches to see when it would make sense)

- In transition: counter and distribute to CBs & FBs (either roll out or short kicks)

- out of possession: depends on your players' strengths and weaknesses

So, this is how my preferred setup would look:

DLFat

TQ/APat        AMMsu          Wsu

 

ACM    REG

WBsu    CDco     CDde     WBde/FBsu

SKde/su

 

The RB (Azpi) would be told to sit narrower, both in order to serve as a central passing option during build-ups and to provide defensive cover for the regista.

The AMR (winger on support) would be given license to roam from position, to reduce his potential isolation on the flank and make him more involved in creation of attacks

Morata would be told to move into channels. 

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10 hours ago, jjjkkk said:

Play one match with this and then analyse your passing. If your players misplace to much easy passes, just let them play with an higher tempo. If the long passes don't work, play with an lower tempo.

can i ask - how does decreased tempo lead to  an increase in misplaced passes? In my save I've knocked tempo to slightly lower since i dont think i have the best decision makers, but have noticed at times passes sprayed wide are often before or after the wb has made the run. curious what the mechanic/interaction is there

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6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In terms of roles and duties:

- 3 out of your forward 4 are on attack duties, which is always problematic (unless you use some downloaded exploit tactic, but that's another story)

- From what I know about Jorginho, in this (deep 4321) system I would ideally use him as a regista (rather than volante)

- Hazard can play as an IF, but my preference would be either trequartista or APM on attack, so he would be the main source of creativity on the left

- As for the AM/ST combo, if one is on attack, the other would be on support (e.g. AMsu - DLFatt; or AMatt - DLFsu). I prefer to avoid giving a lone striker the AF role, because it usually makes him too isolated (though in certain systems can work)

- LB would be WB on support, rather than attack, so the left flank would be less vulnerable defensively

- DML (Kante) can remain a stadard DM, though I would rather opt for an anchor (again with the purpose of achieving better defensive stability)

Regarding team instructions:

- in possession: just play out of def and work ball into box and overlap left (everything else on default setting) for now; be more expressive can be added on occasion (watch the matches to see when it would make sense)

- In transition: counter and distribute to CBs & FBs (either roll out or short kicks)

- out of possession: depends on your players' strengths and weaknesses

So, this is how my preferred setup would look:

DLFat

TQ/APat        AMMsu          Wsu

 

ACM    REG

WBsu    CDco     CDde     WBde/FBsu

SKde/su

 

The RB (Azpi) would be told to sit narrower, both in order to serve as a central passing option during build-ups and to provide defensive cover for the regista.

The AMR (winger on support) would be given license to roam from position, to reduce his potential isolation on the flank and make him more involved in creation of attacks

Morata would be told to move into channels. 

Thanks, this was super helpful. A few questions:

1. Would TQ/APat take away Hazard's goal scoring threat? I want him to be my main source of goals, with ST and AMC coming after.

2. Doesn't WB (A/S) provide a natural overlap. Should I still use the instruction? I had it on for a while and idk if it even did much.

3. Is regista better than DLP? It is my understanding that a regista just recycles possession but I think Jorginho can offer more to my side. If that's not what the role is about then I'm willing to consider it.

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n = 1

1. In my 4-1-4-1 anemic offense the Treq playing AML is my top goal scorer through 12 games and has most assists. In general am really happy with his offensive movement/involvement. His defensive involvement (or lack thereof) really messed with the tactic. The IF(a/s) I find is too hell bent on cutting inside and ends up going 1v3 sometimes (frustrating to watch) the treq will run wide as well allowing him to get the ball into the box.  I cant seem to get IFs to score regardless of what I try though, so I might have a biased take. 

2. I use WB(s/a) and no overlap instruction. They seem to get forward just fine. Don't really notice a difference in how the team plays with the instruction ticked on/off. 

3. I've never really been able to get either to work / dominate - hopefully someone else has more insight on this. I'm not perceptive enough to see the subtle difference in performance / understand what one offers that the other doesnt. 

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12 hours ago, theriverman said:

Would TQ/APat take away Hazard's goal scoring threat? I want him to be my main source of goals, with ST and AMC coming after

TQ as a role is both a goal-scoring threat and a creator. I cannot tell you how it would affect Hazard specifically, but from what I know about him, he should be great in that role. But I think that you should not obsess yourself with making any particular player the main source of goals. Rather, you should focus on creating a tactic that will lead to good performance by the team as a whole. When you achieve that, the matter of who will score more or less goals becomes insignificant.

13 hours ago, theriverman said:

Doesn't WB (A/S) provide a natural overlap. Should I still use the instruction? I had it on for a while and idk if it even did much.

My suggestion on overlap on the left was meant only when the WB is on support duty, in order to make him more involved in the final third (because overlap/underlap increases the WB/FB's mentality and thus his propensity to bomb forward), especially in order to provide more support for Hazard out wide (and Hazard as a TQ would roam a lot and cut inside often). But you do not have to use overlap if you don't feel comfortable. Or you can use it only on certain occasions (when you see fit). But it's definitely not a necessary instruction. I personally tend not to use many team instructions, because when you make the right setup of roles and duties, you need relatively few TIs and just occasional tweaks based on what you see watching a match.

13 hours ago, theriverman said:

3. Is regista better than DLP? It is my understanding that a regista just recycles possession but I think Jorginho can offer more to my side. If that's not what the role is about then I'm willing to consider it.

It's not a question of which role is "better", but what is more suitable for a particular tactical system and a player in a specific position within that system. Jorginho is certainly good enough to play both as DLP and REG, but in this deep 4231 I would prefer him in the latter role. Or you can post a screenshot of his player profile, so that we could analyze him in more detail :brock:

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