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Asclepius

4231 2 holding midfielders

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In a 4231 wide would the two holding midfielders be better suited with  a dlp on defend and a cm on support (which is my setup). However I see people on YouTube use a dlp on defend with a ball winning midfielder on support. My thinking is that the ball wining midfielder would chase the ball leaving huge gaps which the opponent can exploit. Also box to box midfielders on a 4231 would also leave huge gaps because they have a roam from position PI.

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1 hour ago, Asclepius said:

In a 4231 wide would the two holding midfielders be better suited with  a dlp on defend and a cm on support (which is my setup)

There is nothing wrong in that particular setup of the two. However, there are also some other combinations that work well (e.g. DLP-BTB, DLP-CAR, CMd-CAR etc).

 

1 hour ago, Asclepius said:

However I see people on YouTube use a dlp on defend with a ball winning midfielder on support. My thinking is that the ball wining midfielder would chase the ball leaving huge gaps which the opponent can exploit

That's the reason why I also tend to avoid a BWM in that system, though it can also work and is not wrong per se. But when creating any tactical system, you should consider the complete picture, not just a couple of roles. In a 4231 people usually make mistakes with the setup of the front four, rather than the two MCs.

Edited by Experienced Defender

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11 hours ago, Asclepius said:

In a 4231 wide would the two holding midfielders be better suited with  a dlp on defend and a cm on support (which is my setup).

My typical combo is DLP-S and a different role with a defend duty so both have Hold Position to form a base for the front 4, though you can do other combos.

11 hours ago, Asclepius said:

However I see people on YouTube use a dlp on defend with a ball winning midfielder on support. My thinking is that the ball wining midfielder would chase the ball leaving huge gaps which the opponent can exploit.

Well in a 4231 wide you have a gap between your defence and midfield, especially on the flanks. Having a "sitting" player won't really help in that formation since he will be in space and not as deep as a DM to shield DCs.

Its a risk vs reward, risk him bring caught out or missing his tackle vs winning the ball back quickly to maintain pressure or maybe in a position to launch a quick attack. 

Everyone makes the BWM role sound like it turns players into mindless idiots but it doesn't, they don't just go running around like a headless chicken, if the ball is near them then yes they try and go win it. The type of player is important to, a high aggression player who lacks other mental attributes could be a bit rash and caught out even if playing another role.

11 hours ago, Asclepius said:

Also box to box midfielders on a 4231 would also leave huge gaps because they have a roam from position PI.

Depends what the other players around him are doing.  You might have a role like IWB covering him. Would also need to consider what the front 4 are doing for the BBM to have space near the box.

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@summatsupeer Thankyou for your reply. 

Also I have another question, when playing the 4231 would using a DLF, Target man, and or Complete Forward occupy the same space as the AMC. For instance I have my AMC as an Advanced playmaker and I usually put my striker as a Pressing forward. 

My thoughts are that having an AMC especially an AP you do not need your striker on a support role also that DLF Target man and Complete Forwards hold up the ball therefore getting in the space of the AMC. 

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Players occupying the "same" space is not necessarily a bad thing. For example, it can be good when you want to create overloads. Btw, bear in mind that TM, DLF and CF are different roles and therefore behave differently. CF for example has a hard-coded Roam from position PI, so he will be exploring free spaces in different areas. And you can always use PIs to additionally influence how a certain player/role plays. You also need to consider the roles and duties you assign to other players (positions), as well as your overall tactic. So when making tactical decisions, always look at the whole picture.

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4 hours ago, Asclepius said:

occupy the same space 

If they're standing around in the same area then you probably have an issue. Sometimes players will be in similar areas but moving different ways which can lead to good combinations. 

AP tends to drop deep so whilst starting as a AMC he will often be in CM so a support forward might be able to use the AMC area.  The question is how does having two central attackers dropping deeper work in your tactic.  If you want Pass Into Space / Risky Passes or fast direct attacks with vertical ball movement, does that fit the movement of the roles?  Maybe those roles fit more with players making themselves available for passes to feet more often in a patient possession style?  What you need changes from tactic to tactic so don't dismiss combinations out of hand, see how they play on the field and then make a decision.

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On 07/01/2019 at 09:59, summatsupeer said:

My typical combo is DLP-S and a different role with a defend duty so both have Hold Position to form a base for the front 4, though you can do other combos.

I used to do that as well, but thinking of making it more generic (i.e. no playmaker duties) I've wondered whether CM/S-D is the go-to or, if you want to be even more secure, given that four are up top, two Defend roles. Makes me wonder if that would allow more freedom for the wingbacks, but I'd imagine both would have to be impressively fit players to hold that midfield if so. 

(Hopefully this isn't too long to be considered a necro, apologies if so.)

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20 minutes ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

I used to do that as well, but thinking of making it more generic (i.e. no playmaker duties) I've wondered whether CM/S-D is the go-to or, if you want to be even more secure, given that four are up top, two Defend roles. Makes me wonder if that would allow more freedom for the wingbacks, but I'd imagine both would have to be impressively fit players to hold that midfield if so. 

(Hopefully this isn't too long to be considered a necro, apologies if so.)

Well don't have to have a playmaker in there.  I'm not sure what benefit having two defend duties in central midfield would give.  Okay you the FBs can be more aggressive, but how does that work with your wide forwards and the AMC + ST?  Do you then become a wing heavy style? Are the wide forwards coming inside or staying wide as wingers?  Or dropping+coming inside as a wide playmaker?

My first thought when thinking about two defend duty central midfielders is, do you really want two defensive midfielders?

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My first choice at the moment is a DLP-S and a BWM - D on that formation. \

I adjust these though depending on the opposition - will sometimes go with a DLP & BTB or Mez to put a bit more pressure on the opposition. I'm not a fan of BWM on Support in this formation as he tends to wander less with Defend.

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On 03/07/2019 at 18:08, summatsupeer said:

Okay you the FBs can be more aggressive, but how does that work with your wide forwards and the AMC + ST?  Do you then become a wing heavy style? Are the wide forwards coming inside or staying wide as wingers?  Or dropping+coming inside as a wide playmaker?

My first thought when thinking about two defend duty central midfielders is, do you really want two defensive midfielders?

If I was brainstorming basically: Pressing forward A, two Inside forwards A/S and an AM/S.

Regarding the two Defend duties, I would have to look at it if I ever ran with it, but the idea would be to use them to create depth as I wouldn't need another player moving up into the central attacking areas in theory, but I was thinking along the lines you mentioned; having players with 'hold position', since MC/S if I remember right does get forward a bit and doesn't have hold position active. I've not gone with a Double Defend midfield before mind you, usually I stick to just the one.  Perhaps I'm overthinking it and a MC with enabled hold position is the way forward? :P

 

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In my current iteration I have 2 Attack duty full backs, 1 Support and 1 Defend for my centre midfielders, a Support AM, two Attack wide players and a Support striker. The reason I have all the Attack duties out wide though is twofold:

a) I'm Lyon, my best attackers are Fekir, who I play wide right, and Memphis, wide left, with roles (Trequartista and Inside Forward, respectively) that cut inside congesting the middle, so I need overlapping full backs to help stretch the play

b) My full backs (Rafael and Ferland Mendy) are both better offensively than defensively, so why not embrace it by sticking them on Attack duties and have the centre be where we derive our stability from? Tousart-Ndombele-Aouar is very good at keeping the ball, and whilst the former is a BWM the latter are decent in terms of Positioning too. 

I'm going for pro-active, possession play though. If you have different players or a different goal in sight, might be worth sprinkling the Attack duties around in different areas.

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