The Thing That is Going To Drive Me Away From This Game! Player Talks.

[YUK0N]

I understand you have to talk to your players.

But I don't see why this can't be done easier somehow. I'm disabled so I pretty much can play all day... So lets say I play 8 hours... almost 5 of them hours are talking to players...

1)Once a week for praising or criticizing. This I try to do before any game to get morale up as high as possible.

2)After every game telling them they played well or not. This can be twice or once a week.

3)Every 2 weeks, Really should be one you gotta talk to your youth teams... WHAT is the Lower league Head coach for.

4)Then their is the dreaded not playing enough or new contracts or someone is unhappy because they think the defense isn't strong enough or has enough depth??? Really??? Your the player. I'm the manager that just led you and the team to 15 straight wins. You've been giving a contract just play. I get dragged down when I have to go through every player and talk to them, It's the same ole mouse clicks for certain situations and it gets nauseating to think I;m sitting here arguing with a computer generated player that isn't real in the first place.

Yes there should be talking, but by God sometimes I just want to work on my next game tactic or do some scouting to replace the complainers for someone else who will probably just complain. or get through the next match. But my OCD in me see's the training reports come in and I dread it cause I know I gotta go through every player. Hey nice job on your training this week... Gee thanks for noticing coach I will now go bust my butt for you. Hey how about doing it because THAT'S WHAT YOU GET PAYED FOR and not everyone in the world gets payed to play soccer. Actually I payed to argue with computer generated players to play for me. Am I crazy? Doe's someone have a solution cause I want to keep playing this game but I truly am frustrated with all the senseless mouse clicking.

Or if you make one mistake going through the monotonous talks, you make one wrong click.. And the player flips out on you cause you hit the wrong mouse click... I love the game don't get me wrong and I'm new to it. But the constant baby sitting computer generated players is almost to much for me to handle. I'm posting this after just 6 months of discovering FM2018 and yes I'm on FM2019 now and I'm fed up with the constant mouse clicking..

Can't you make it so you can do the whole team at once? There has to be an easier way... Anyways rant over, but this will unfortunately be the one thing I get tired of, I'm already tired of it...  now I'm waiting for the person to tell me you don't have to pay attention to it at all and nothing wrong would happen and they would still play the same.. Which I may try for myself. But for a players morale to be down because he thinks there isn't enough depth on the team when I the manager know I have a better player in the reserve team that will be better then him coming up when I feel he is ready or want him to, or even worse and he is an influential player and more start thinking the same?? Dang give me the option to tell them I got someone in the reserves that's gonna be replacing you if you don't get out there and start playing and let me worry about the rest! Really are you joking? Do you see my point?. And then all this after being promoted 2 years straight... Kinda frustrating.

Am I missing something? Or do I need to wake up again and do more talks with my morning coffee before I can skip to the next day or game?

This is in no way mean spirited or anger, its pure frustration of having to do way more baby sitting then coaching my team.

[JaJake]

Apologies if this seems obvious... But just don't do it? I hardly ever interact with my players outside of occasionally praising or criticising their training (about one player a month). If a player comes to me with a concern I'll go through it, but it's rare and usually related to playing time. Never had any issues with morale that couldn't be attributed to performance in the league.

[jackob]

Sadly, a symptom of wider issues within the FM game world for me. Too many click-click-click 'procedurals', too many digital chores, too many dead cells on the spreadsheet, not enough focus on (what should be) the pleasure of managing a virtual football team! 

No interest in the predictable retort, "try the diet/FM Touch version", because this isn't quite the same thing. I do want depth, immersion, detail - but in the right places, and with meaningful outcomes. As per the above, having breathtakingly dim multiple choice conversations with emotionally deficient soccerbots is not one such area. Groundhog day doesn't even cover it.

Rather than fall foul to this kind of 'feature creep', I Wish FM would play to strength - regens to riches (player dev), diamonds in the rough (scouting, transfers), in-match moments that make you fall off your chair (game + graphics engine), sculpting a masterplan (tactics builder), developing a dynasty (the God particle in all of these long-term strategy games)...

 

[The Dude]

3 hours ago, jackob said:

No interest in the predictable retort, "try the diet/FM Touch version", because this isn't quite the same thing. I do want depth, immersion, detail - but in the right places, and with meaningful outcomes. As per the above, having breathtakingly dim multiple choice conversations with emotionally deficient soccerbots is not one such area. Groundhog day doesn't even cover it.

Rather than fall foul to this kind of 'feature creep', I Wish FM would play to strength - regens to riches (player dev), diamonds in the rough (scouting, transfers), in-match moments that make you fall off your chair (game + graphics engine), sculpting a masterplan (tactics builder), developing a dynasty (the God particle in all of these long-term strategy games)...

This.  Absolutely perfect summary of some of the problems with FM18 and FM19.  You're probably going to get some defensive responses from people, but as far as I'm concerned, you've hit the nail on the head, sir.  

[LukasZ_VCF]

Yes there is too much talking too less playing... for example if I sold a player(at the start of new season) and set him to leave after this season almost everytime at the press conference I have to set the answer about him leaving...managed to figure out which one don't mess with team morale because I want to choose optimistic one to motivate my players that they will have the chance to replace him and play better, but It was decreasing morale so I had to chose another one later something I don't remember how it goes but that we will miss him or something - it was the last one all the time

 

They should ask once about it not everytime heh

 

 

I tried few times choose options like if the team play after us the pressure will be on them because hey don't have strong minder players and I saw few times that that team (Real/Barcelona/Atletico) lost or draw that match with weak opponents, so It can be usefull of course if it was related :P

[jackob]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

This.  Absolutely perfect summary of some of the problems with FM18 and FM19.  You're probably going to get some defensive responses from people, but as far as I'm concerned, you've hit the nail on the head, sir.  

 Sadly FM19 is the first version I have bought and - having trialled - decided not to play on with. Aspects of the game are undoubtedly improved (the ME is the best yet, for example), but think that SI need a strategy on where the game is going and what it's really all about...

One aspect I would question in particular is that SI seem increasingly football industry-centric (i.e. "this is what the clubs really do, you know") rather than user-centric (i.e. "here's this thing you will really enjoy as part of your gaming experience") . A prime example of this is the evolved training function, which - while it slavishly follows apparently real-world operations - risks being tedious for the end user. This, of course, is an age-old dilemma for games purporting to be simulations...

[jackob]

5 hours ago, JaJake said:

Apologies if this seems obvious... But just don't do it? I hardly ever interact with my players outside of occasionally praising or criticising their training (about one player a month). If a player comes to me with a concern I'll go through it, but it's rare and usually related to playing time. Never had any issues with morale that couldn't be attributed to performance in the league.

On the flip-side to this, if I needn't do these things, and if the outcomes of these interactions aren't - in one way or another - significant/meaningful to my management of the football club, it rather begs the question: why are they in the game at all? 

In short, how can I be satisfied with a feature when it can be so easily/happily/without consequence either:
a. ignored entirely? (I tend to do this myself, btw)

OR 
b. outsourced to an AI? 
 

 

 

 

[The Dude]

2 minutes ago, jackob said:

and if the outcomes of these interactions aren't - in one way or another - significant/meaningful to my management of the football club, it rather begs the question: why are they in the game at all? 

Exactly.  I completely agree.  Be warned though - you're going to get a lot of negativity on here if you dare to criticise the game. 

[The Dude]

13 minutes ago, jackob said:

Sadly FM19 is the first version I have bought and - having trialled - decided not to play on with

Yes, me too.  I've played every version since CM97-98, and played them to death.  I hated FM18, but kind of made myself play it to justify paying for it.  I thought FM19 would bounce back with quality but it's deteriorated further, and I won't play it again.  I won't even buy FM20 when it emerges, as I no longer trust the brand (for various reasons).  

 

16 minutes ago, jackob said:

One aspect I would question in particular is that SI seem increasingly football industry-centric (i.e. "this is what the clubs really do, you know") rather than user-centric (i.e. "here's this thing you will really enjoy as part of your gaming experience") . A prime example of this is the evolved training function, which - while it slavishly follows apparently real-world operations - risks being tedious for the end user. This, of course, is an age-old dilemma for games purporting to be simulations...

Yet again, you've hit the nail on the head.  I've said elsewhere that the game designers need to think very carefully about which elements of the game should be abstracted, and which should be simulated.  Of course, not even that decision, if made correctly, can mitigate the rampant bugginess of the game, or the new direction of the ME which seems to be actually geared up to outwit gamers rather than give them a simulation to work within (if you believe some 'ITK' posts on the forum.

[Robioto]

I'm with you here TC. As a long term and avid player of the game I can't stand the amount of conversations I have to have.

I wouldn't mind as much if the conversations didn't feel like a lottery and as you say getting player whinging about ridiculous things when you are winning trophies and games is infuriating, click the wrong thing? He's randomly unhappy or happy and sometimes the whole squad goes down with him.

I love FM but the 'fluff' that is added to the game each year such as this is something I do not like at all. I actually find the conversations in general in FM2019 better, but there are more of them...

[YUK0N]

Quote

Sadly, a symptom of wider issues within the FM game world for me. Too many click-click-click 'procedurals', too many digital chores, too many dead cells on the spreadsheet, not enough focus on (what should be) the pleasure of managing a virtual football team! 

No interest in the predictable retort, "try the diet/FM Touch version", because this isn't quite the same thing. I do want depth, immersion, detail - but in the right places, and with meaningful outcomes. As per the above, having breathtakingly dim multiple choice conversations with emotionally deficient soccerbots is not one such area. Groundhog day doesn't even cover it.

Rather than fall foul to this kind of 'feature creep', I Wish FM would play to strength - regens to riches (player dev), diamonds in the rough (scouting, transfers), in-match moments that make you fall off your chair (game + graphics engine), sculpting a masterplan (tactics builder), developing a dynasty (the God particle in all of these long-term strategy games)... by jackob

YES!!!! This exactly... 

[HUNT3R]

6 hours ago, jackob said:

Rather than fall foul to this kind of 'feature creep', I Wish FM would play to strength - regens to riches (player dev), diamonds in the rough (scouting, transfers), in-match moments that make you fall off your chair (game + graphics engine), sculpting a masterplan (tactics builder), developing a dynasty (the God particle in all of these long-term strategy games)...

You've described what FMT is. Give it a try?

26 minutes ago, Robioto said:

I love FM but the 'fluff' that is added to the game each year such as this is something I do not like at all. I actually find the conversations in general in FM2019 better, but there are more of them...

You as well. FMT cuts the "fluff" that some do not like.

[oulzac]

I'm very tired of FM19 with the "pre-concern" ********. Players feeling we lack depth, or they deserve a new contract 6 months after signing a new one. Its gotten to the point now where I have had to buy and use the stupid in game editor to tell players to F off by resetting their unhappy every damn week.

[YUK0N]

Quote

I'm very tired of FM19 with the "pre-concern" ********. Players feeling we lack depth, or they deserve a new contract 6 months after signing a new one. Its gotten to the point now where I have had to buy and use the stupid in game editor to tell players to F off by resetting their unhappy every damn week.

Yes I call this the Prozac moment of the week. Open editor make everyone happy, rinse & repeat. Had to pay the extra 5 bucks to get the prescription filled by buying the editor.

[Neil Brock]

Whilst I appreciate the viewpoints and know that the interaction aspect of the game is something that is divisive, the sheer reality is that part of a Football Manager's job is keeping players happy. Did everyone just miss a whole aspect of this involving certain Portuguese manager and a French World Cup winning midfielder?

To the OP, talking about your player's form is something you're choosing to do, you don't have to do that. Sounds like it could do with some rethinking because if people are using it just as a 'morale boost' it'd be worth adding something lessening the effect if the manager constantly does it - would have to check as that may already be in game.

And the contract issue - if a player sees a teammate play more, or their form/team importance dramatically increases, or even a similar level player gets a huge contract elsewhere they will look to improve their contract. Just because a player wants a new one doesn't mean they have to get it. Player power is fine, but the manager isn't helpless in these situations. The pre-concern's were added to make a user informed that a player is eventually going to have an issue. You now have an opportunity to nip it in the bud before it gets to an escalated stage. 

Do people basically want a 'my player is happy no matter what option'? (That's a genuine question by the way - do you want that?)

Is the interaction in-game perfect? We're well aware it's not as to make it perfect we have to have incredibly detailed AI for every single NPC, which is 99.9% of the game. We're working within the available system - if people have a way to better represent managing player concerns and issues we're always very open to hearing them via the Feature Request forums. 

[Rashidi]

12 hours ago, YUK0N said:

1)Once a week for praising or criticizing. This I try to do before any game to get morale up as high as possible

I don't bother unless its a cup final

12 hours ago, YUK0N said:

)After every game telling them they played well or not. This can be twice or once a week.

Never bothered cos I don't want them to get swell headed :-)

12 hours ago, YUK0N said:

Every 2 weeks, Really should be one you gotta talk to your youth teams... WHAT is the Lower league Head coach for

Haven't really even noticed this as well

12 hours ago, YUK0N said:

Then their is the dreaded not playing enough or new contracts or someone is unhappy because they think the defense isn't strong enough or has enough depth??? Really??? Your the player. I'm the manager that just led you and the team to 15 straight wins. You've been giving a contract just play. I get dragged down when I have to go through every player and talk to them, It's the same ole mouse clicks for certain situations and it gets nauseating to think I;m sitting here arguing with a computer generated player that isn't real in the first place.

This is the one I love, cos if they complain, I send someone else to talk to them, if it fails I just let em know what I think. If they aren't happy I transfer list them. If they aren't getting matches they aren't good enough. If they are still pissed I move them to the reserves and let them rot. Then they don't affect anyone.

Team talks I usually let my ass man do them, same with Tunnel interviews, I don't even handle team briefings.  If you do well with the players you have chosen to start with there shouldn't be an issue. The only time you have an issue is if you didn't choose the right players for your system. I can understand the challenges, but there is a fair bit you can delegate. Contracts can be tricky, sometimes these are the ones I usually spend time dealing with players over. 

[Lord Rowell]

The clue is in the word Football "Manager". To be successful, you have to be a good people manager, just as in any other field.

At the risk of sounding like an old fart I actually like the fact that in some ways its a bit of a teaching / learning tool in how to manage people. I've seen many a person on these forums fining and hairdrying their players and wondering why they get upset? Well seriously wouldn't you if someone managed you in that way? Its important to remember that footballers are people, just like you and I.

This game, the full version, is a "simulation" of Football Management and day-to-day people management is very much a part of that, in fact I'm sure moreso than in the game.

I do understand people sometimes want to switch off from that or have a lighter experience, that's fine. As has already been said, there is FMT, and there are other games out there as well.

[YUK0N]

Quote

Whilst I appreciate the viewpoints and know that the interaction aspect of the game is something that is divisive, the sheer reality is that part of a Football Manager's job is keeping players happy. Did everyone just miss a whole aspect of this involving certain Portuguese manager and a French World Cup winning midfielder?

Talking about your player's form is something you're choosing to do, you don't have to do that. Sounds like it could do with some rethinking because if people are using it just as a 'morale boost' it'd be worth adding something lessening the effect if the manager constantly does it - would have to check as that may already be in game.

And the contract issue - if a player sees a teammate play more, or their form/team importance dramatically increases, or even a similar level player gets a huge contract elsewhere they will look to improve their contract. Just because a player wants a new one doesn't mean they have to get it. Player power is fine, but the manager isn't helpless in these situations. The pre-concern's were added to make a user informed that a player is eventually going to have an issue. You now have an opportunity to nip it in the bud before it gets to an escalated stage. 

Do people basically want a 'my player is happy no matter what option'? (That's a genuine question by the way - do you want that?)

Is the interaction in-game perfect? We're well aware it's not as to make it perfect we have to have incredibly detailed AI for every single NPC, which is 99.9% of the game. We're working within the available system - if people have a way to better represent managing player concerns and issues we're always very open to hearing them via the Feature Request forums.

Yes I said I understand you have to talk to your players, It was the first line in my post.. Its the Repetitiveness over and over again and again... In real life a manager can have a conversation face to face and talk. In FM2019 you gotta go through a repetitive system of limited answers that sometimes doesn't come close to what you want to say.

And no I don't want my player to have a happy no matter what option but there should be solution to be able to fix the problem appropriately. Example: Player comes to me and ask's for a new contract. "i'm in the lower leagues" and I have an option that says even if I wanted to I couldn't because the club just doesn't have the money.... I picked this option on a wing and a prayer and it worked, he understood. Problem solved... Make the problems solvable so the team and the day and the next game can move on. Otherwise soon we will be getting into sorry boss, I'm having trouble with the old lady at home and things aren't going well and divorce is right around the corner and football just isn't at the top of my list anymore and she wants the kids and half my money I made by sitting on the bench and now I have no ambition to make it off the bench!!. Just let us relegate the lower team talks to our lower league head coaches maybe with a monthly check in from the head coach. And maybe let us talk to the team all at once about trainings instead of having to go through each player individually cus it can drag on for over an hour depending on how many player's you have and let the lower head coaches take care of there lower teams unless something comes up that needs dealing with. Isn't that why there called reserve head coach or under 18 head coach. Or even the assistant head coach who I make sure is like minded to the way I play and relegate the training for lower teams and individuals and make adjustments where I see fit.

[The Dude]

36 minutes ago, YUK0N said:

es I call this the Prozac moment of the week. Open editor make everyone happy, rinse & repeat. Had to pay the extra 5 bucks to get the prescription filled by buying the editor.

You KNOW you're going to get ITK people and SI people telling you it's your fault, though. 

[YUK0N]

I'll even go a step further. 2 of my lower coaches got job offers. I got to ask them to stay, they said I couldn't persuade there decision. Then There is an option of how valuable he is and bang problem solved. I actually felt like he felt needed and wanted and they stayed. It was actually a worth while conversation that felt good to go through and worked all around. And the coach is more happy to stay where he feels wanted and needed then to move on somewhere else where he doesn't know what might happen... Now weather this was becuase of loyalty or not I'm not sure, they were lower coaches for me for almost 3 years. If there is gonna be problems let there be salutions.

Truth here, I'm in my 50's, yes i know I'm getting up there but in truth I have actually fell asleep doing these repetitive talks.

[The Dude]

I don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't have player interactions in the game, and I don't think anyone s saying we should be able to just have happy players all the time.  I think we all know what the word 'manager' means, and we are aware of player power IRL.  What we are talking about is the poor quality of the simulation of this in the game. 

[YUK0N]

Quote

You KNOW you're going to get ITK people and SI people telling you it's your fault, though.

So be it, but in truth when it gets so bad its the only option otherwise the whole thing seems unsatisfying to not being able to solve and problem that should be solvable. I said it to be funny, but in truth i've done it. And after your head hits the desk by the repetitiveness from falling asleep and your daughter comes in and says what happened did you fall. No I feel alseep at my desk, you know this game can be dangerous lol. bad JOKE!

[oulzac]

 

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

I don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't have player interactions in the game, and I don't think anyone s saying we should be able to just have happy players all the time.  I think we all know what the word 'manager' means, and we are aware of player power IRL.  What we are talking about is the poor quality of the simulation of this in the game. 

Oh, watch out! Everyone is going to tell you to play FMT because that version doesn't have it. The go to response for all the "how dare you criticize or bring a valid point or opinion that differs from mine" response on this forum.

[YUK0N]

Quote

Oh, watch out! Everyone is going to tell you to play FMT because that version doesn't have it. The go to response for all the "how dare you criticize or bring a valid point or opinion that differs from mine" response on this forum

Yea I see it coming but as someone pointed out above in ruins the immersion and detail. And I actually did try the touch and was done in ten minutes.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, YUK0N said:

So be it, but in truth when it gets so bad its the only option otherwise the whole thing seems unsatisfying to not being able to solve and problem that should be solvable. I said it to be funny, but in truth i've done it. And after your head hits the desk by the repetitiveness from falling asleep and your daughter comes in and says what happened did you fall. No I feel alseep at my desk, you know this game can be dangerous lol. bad JOKE!

Ignoring his incorrect comment, if you have any issue, please do report it with a save from before the talk. That way SI can look at it directly, under the hood, and can determine exactly whether it's correct or not.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, YUK0N said:

Yea I see it coming but as someone pointed out above in ruins the immersion and detail. And I actually did try the touch and was done in ten minutes.

Why? What put you off?

[YUK0N]

Quote

Why? What put you off?

I didn't play it long enough to find out I was missing my team and wanted to go back to it. I like the regular FM2019 just fine, its the repetitiveness of the same ole talks that drags out the fun... And I'm sorry about the comment about hitting my head on the desk, it never happened I was trying to be funny and it came off the wrong way, but I have feel asleep multiple times trying to get through the weekly individual training talks. My apologies about the comment.

[The Dude]

Just now, YUK0N said:

So be it, but in truth when it gets so bad its the only option otherwise the whole thing seems unsatisfying to not being able to solve and problem that should be solvable. I said it to be funny, but in truth i've done it. And after your head hits the desk by the repetitiveness from falling asleep and your daughter comes in and says what happened did you fall. No I feel alseep at my desk, you know this game can be dangerous lol. bad JOKE!

I know for a fact that I'm not the only person who has stopped playing FM19.  Another gamer and I had a long talk about this, and decided to go back to FM17.  But there are limited options about what we can do to get SI to take our concerns about FM19 seriously. 

You can talk about it on the forums, but just get told that you're using the game wrongly, or it's supposed to work that way, or you just don't understand it - none of which is helpful.  No one from SI seems to be willing to say, You know what, a lot of our paying customers aren't happy with this - we should do something. 

Or you can moan about it on social media - which I do - but I'm not kidding myself anyone at SI will take notice of that. 

Or you can stop playing the game.  Perhaps SI get to see metrics via Steam for how many people are playing the game, and if they see a downward trend they might wonder why. (I'm speculating - I have no idea whether they can track usage like this.)

The big thing is to vote with your wallet.  FM17 was  brilliant.  FM18 was bad.  FM19 is worse.  Even if SI promise to make it right, there is now no way I will buy FM20.  Won't happen.  After that, when it comes to FM21, who knows?  I'll need to see it an action from someone who has paid for it before I cough up again.    

[YUK0N]

Also why try and push the touch on us. I'm in my 50's I still just use my phone for talking to people. I really want no part of a mobile game that is watered down to play on a phone or tablet. I can hardly see now. Yes you can play it on the PC but why when you have a better product that just needs minor fixing and tweaking to make it right.

I'm new here but Ive been gaming for over 40 years since Atari and I know good games and I know what is wrong and right with a game. Maybe your trying to reach the lower generation but I wonder really how many gamers here are not in there 30's 40's and 50's and 60's that regularly buy this game that could careless about there phones. I doubt anyone will see this at SI now that Ive read a few posts and that's fine. I'm not moving my post I'm actually caring less the more I think about it. I can see the game is slowly dieing and SI needs to make some smart decisions... Funny thing is I remember playing  there baseball game on the sega genesis years ago and we all know what happened to that, but what a great baseball game that was, way ahead of everyone else at the time. I'll move on and get through what I can on the game and if I get bored with it then I'll be done with it also as are others and move on to something else because there is one thing I have learned in gaming... There is always another game to play. No offense and none taking but stop pushing on people what they don't want and you know they don't and just fix the product that made you what you are in the first place. Now let me see if I can go check out 2017 and see what that was all about since I didn't start til 2018.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, YUK0N said:

Also why try and push the touch on us. I'm in my 50's I still just use my phone for talking to people. I really want no part of a mobile game that is watered down to play on a phone or tablet. I can hardly see now. Yes you can play it on the PC but why when you have a better product that just needs minor fixing and tweaking to make it right.

Nobody is pushing anything. Your description of what you wanted from FM was exactly what FMT is. It's NOT a mobile game. It's the PC version of FMT that you can play on a tablet, if you want. It has the same ME as the full fat FM and shares a lot of other modules as well, so very, very far from FMM, which is for mobile. All that was asked is "Did you try it?". There are plenty of older people playing FMT as well, including quite a few on this forum, so don't just be so ready to dismiss it. Based on your description, it was a perfectly valid question.

If you have issue to highlight, please do it, but it's best raised in the bugs forum with a save. You have highlighted a lot that doesn't seem like issues though? Complaining that a chat went well after you told a player you didn't have the money - as a lower league club? Telling a coach he was valued and the coach appreciating it and changing his mind? All sound very valid, unless you have reasons why they're not. Then we have an issue that's worth reporting.

[The Dude]

3 minutes ago, YUK0N said:

Also why try and push the touch on us

Exactly.  Telling someone to try the touch version because they're frustrated with the poor quality of the full game is not acceptable. 

 

4 minutes ago, YUK0N said:

I'm in my 50's

Same here.  I've been playing these games longer than a lot of gamers have been alive.  But I'm regularly disrespected on these forums by people who seem to wilfully miss the point. 

 

5 minutes ago, YUK0N said:

There is always another game to play.

The market desperately needs a game to rival football manager. Nothing like a bit of competition to improve performance.  

[rp1966]

FMT is great on PC (subject to the state of the ME) by virtue of losing the vast majority of the tedious interactions - however it also loses a lot of the detail of the football world* that relates to squad building, which is what a lot of the player who have been with the series long term really love.  I think the problem is that there are two camps - those that want to play FOOTBALL manager and those who want to play football MANAGER (there's also a hell of a lot who''d quite like to be the club itself or chairman, but that's a different discussion)

 

* and the ability to build your own via the editor

 

[themadsheep2001]

26 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Nobody is pushing anything. Your description of what you wanted from FM was exactly what FMT is. It's NOT a mobile game. It's the PC version of FMT that you can play on a tablet, if you want. It has the same ME as the full fat FM and shares a lot of other modules as well, so very, very far from FMM, which is for mobile. All that was asked is "Did you try it?". There are plenty of older people playing FMT as well, including quite a few on this forum, so don't just be so ready to dismiss it. Based on your description, it was a perfectly valid question.

If you have issue to highlight, please do it, but it's best raised in the bugs forum with a save. You have highlighted a lot that doesn't seem like issues though? Complaining that a chat went well after you told a player you didn't have the money - as a lower league club? Telling a coach he was valued and the coach appreciating it and changing his mind? All sound very valid, unless you have reasons why they're not. Then we have an issue that's worth reporting.

This. 

Also as someone who spends a lot of time around football and rugby clubs as a job, I don't think FM goes far enough. People underestimate the level of interaction. It's not perfect in FM, and any buggy interactions should be quashed, but as a concept it's definitely worth it's place 

[The Dude]

No one is saying there's no place for the interaction in FM.  The issue is the poor quality of the simulation. 

[rp1966]

3 minutes ago, The Dude said:

No one is saying there's no place for the interaction in FM.  The issue is the poor quality of the simulation. 

I would have thought the technology is there now for something chatbot-like to replace at least some of the multi-choice questions (media questions maybe)., which would at least offer a little variety to the interaction. But the player whinge threshold is the thing that really needs dialling down - realistic or not. 

 

[The Dude]

52 minutes ago, rp1966 said:

realistic or not. 

Absolutely.  There are 'ITK' people on the forums who will tell you the interactions are true to life, or should be even more extreme, but the thing is, that's just their opinion - to which they, like us, are entitled.  But as I've said elsewhere, there is an issue about how far you can take realism (actually I strongly dispute the notion that player interactions on the game are realistic, but for the sake of argument...)  before you damage game play.  Because, simulation though it is, FM is a game.  It is played for pleasure.  If the search for realism and detail is undermined because the quality of that simulation is poor, then the game becomes unenjoyable.  I can't stress this enough - it's the quality of the simulation that is the issue.  The amount of simulation, or level of detail if you like, becomes a big issue only when the quality of it is poor (or, of course, if the amount of simulation tips over into the absurdly extreme, but it hasn't yet).     

We will continue to have a problem getting SI to take our concerns seriously while ever there are people missing this point: Poor quality simulation makes for unhappy gamers.  When moderators or SI employees respond to our concerns by telling us we are wrong, or we don't understand the game, or that's how it's supposed to work, or any one of the other justifications, they are simply missing the point about people wanting to enjoy the game.  No amount of someone telling me this is how the game was designed is going to make me think it's been designed well.

To use an analogy: No game is liked by all people.  Chess for example - some people hate it (I love it).  But you never find people who play chess saying that the rules are rubbish, or there should be less pawns and more bishops, or whatever.  On the other hand, not everyone likes FM, either.  But even people who do like the game, who want to play it, are saying there are things that aren't right with it.  Many of these are people with vast gaming experience.  And more to the point, SI - they are paying customers.  

[YUK0N]

Realism or not, worthiness of it being in the game is what is really warranted here If its in the game make it at least solvable. Just because we fans don't see this go on behind the scenes, because I think if the fans really did then there would be a lot less fans. Fans who go out and work and bust butts in jobs that they will never have to do because they get to play a game for a living. I guess I'm just from the wrong generation and I'm assuming the generation making the game is much younger then me who will never know the times before which made it so easy for them now. But I digress into an area in which I don't want to go.

   I just want the game I love to be fixed which I am almost sure can be fixed quite easily.

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The market desperately needs a game to rival football manager. Nothing like a bit of competition to improve performance.   by THE DUDE

I agree with you and when I said other games I meant other then Soccer cause I know there are none out there as good as this. If only PES would put a managerial system in there game like this now that would be a game.. SI mixed with the PES engine, now that would be cool. But your right we won't see that until people start refusing to buy the inferior product there now making.  But there are other good games. Ive been having a blast with the new Transport Fever. But I understand some just want to play there football game as do I, but I've been around gaming way to long to know when companies do not listen to there fans or customers or anything else. $$$$ is all they see and the only thing they understand is not seeing the $$$ so unless this game is fixed, it also will be my last one I purchase. Its easy for programmers, there like movie makers when one is done and its not to be made anymore they will move to the next one no matter what kind it is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is what they care about most.

[themadsheep2001]

Not everyone will like something, but here's the thing some do. And the other key is: SI might like something too. Listening to people doesn't mean automatically doing whatever they say. Nor does it mean they have to agree with them. Discourse goes both ways. You can't say people need to listen, but not also listen to others. People often forget that SI also want to make the game they want too, as well as trying to make a game an incredibly diverse base wants too.

[HUNT3R]

And that they are in direct contact with professional clubs so will have a much better idea of how much these talks tend to happen. From what I've gathered over the years, it happens fairly often. It's more important to note the result of the convo (whether the player was happy or not), what was said and the player's personality. Some are professional and will accept things even if it's not 100% what they want. Others want it their way and that's it.

[YUK0N]

Quote

Not everyone will like something, but here's the thing some do. And the other key is: SI might like something too. Listening to people doesn't mean automatically doing whatever they say. Nor does it mean they have to agree with them. Discourse goes both ways. You can't say people need to listen, but not also listen to others. People often forget that SI also want to make the game they want too, as well as trying to make a game an incredibly diverse base wants too.

I guess time will tell $$$$$$$ to see if what you suggest holds water. But for me I think there is more holes in that bucket then can be plugged. Ive seen to many game companies, even this one since the 80's do it over and over again. I think you can sit here and say one thing but where are the numbers to back that up. It doesn't hold water to me.

[YUK0N]

Quote

And that they are in direct contact with professional clubs so will have a much better idea of how much these talks tend to happen. From what I've gathered over the years, it happens fairly often. It's more important to note the result of the convo (whether the player was happy or not), what was said and the player's personality. Some are professional and will accept things even if it's not 100% what they want. Others want it their way and that's it.

Thats all fine and dandy but make it at least solvable!!

[themadsheep2001]

Also: just to kill this myth about PES' engine. It actually cannot simulate a proper match in the way FM's engine can. It's only advantage is it's graphical look, which isn't a surprise since it cost $100,000,000 to develop over 5 years

[YUK0N]

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Also: just to kill this myth about PES' engine. It actually cannot simulate a proper match in the way FM's engine can. It's only advantage is it's graphical look, which isn't surprise since it cost $100,000,000 to develop over 5 years

I just said it would be cool. We all know the graphics engine is the last thing on SI's mind.

[mack4ever]

I'd disagree with you completely about how necessary talking to your players is in the game.

My last 3 saves:

Liverpool - Purely to get used to the game, I won the league in my first season by 10 points, won the league with a record points tally, FA Cup, League Cup and Champions League in my second season, won the league, FA Cup and Champions League in my third season.

Leicester - Won the league by a point in my first season, won the league and reached Champions League quarter final in season 2, won both in season 3.

Sunderland - Won League 1 in season 1, Championship with a record points total in season 2 and finished 5th in the Premiership in season 3.

In all of those saves the total amount of player talks I've done has been damn near zero. About half a dozen times a season I'll criticise a player after a match, probably twice a month I'll praise or criticise a player for their training performance and once or twice a season I'll have to speak to a player who has developed a concern.

I have never had a problem with motivation, or unhappy players or anything else related to the players really.

Talking to the players all the time can help if you do it but it's not going to cause you any big problems if you don't.

[YUK0N]

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now I'm waiting for the person to tell me you don't have to pay attention to it at all and nothing wrong would happen and they would still play the same..  - me

you

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I'd disagree with you completely about how necessary talking to your players is in the game.

My last 3 saves:

Liverpool - Purely to get used to the game, I won the league in my first season by 10 points, won the league with a record points tally, FA Cup, League Cup and Champions League in my second season, won the league, FA Cup and Champions League in my third season.

Leicester - Won the league by a point in my first season, won the league and reached Champions League quarter final in season 2, won both in season 3.

Sunderland - Won League 1 in season 1, Championship with a record points total in season 2 and finished 5th in the Premiership in season 3.

In all of those saves the total amount of player talks I've done has been damn near zero. About half a dozen times a season I'll criticise a player after a match, probably twice a month I'll praise or criticise a player for their training performance and once or twice a season I'll have to speak to a player who has developed a concern.

I have never had a problem with motivation, or unhappy players or anything else related to the players really.

Talking to the players all the time can help if you do it but it's not going to cause you any big problems if you don't.

Almost the exact post Ive been waiting for the whole time for someone to literally tell me mate it doesn't matter either way.... OK great... I will now save it and try it if it doesn't work I'll go back to my regular save cus I got to much time in it. But if what you say doe's work then I say... WHY? Why have it then at least to this point, why have it if it means nothing. It is not necessary the talks but the reasons and non solvable resolutions that aren't there. But if it all means nothing then why???

I'll check back in with my findings after giving your suggestion a try to see if what you suggest is really true. Someone else said the same also but not quite to the point to where I thought it was possibly believable.

[alian62]

13 hours ago, The Dude said:

This.  Absolutely perfect summary of some of the problems with FM18 and FM19.  You're probably going to get some defensive responses from people, but as far as I'm concerned, you've hit the nail on the head, sir.  

It's all about the money though . Pressure to release the next installment with new features to tempt purchasers . In a nutshell everyone knows what they are getting when they buy the game . We crave for better stadiums and better match engines and graphics but get new features that really don't do much . 2017 boasted dynamic rivalries? What's so dynamic ? They even remove features I've noticed . I read Miles saying the 3D game is not the most important thing but he is incorrect . The end product us the most important . What's the point if having a good game if the ending is rubbish . People always remember the end of a movie

[LukasZ_VCF]

14 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

Whilst I appreciate the viewpoints and know that the interaction aspect of the game is something that is divisive, the sheer reality is that part of a Football Manager's job is keeping players happy. Did everyone just miss a whole aspect of this involving certain Portuguese manager and a French World Cup winning midfielder?

To the OP, talking about your player's form is something you're choosing to do, you don't have to do that. Sounds like it could do with some rethinking because if people are using it just as a 'morale boost' it'd be worth adding something lessening the effect if the manager constantly does it - would have to check as that may already be in game.

And the contract issue - if a player sees a teammate play more, or their form/team importance dramatically increases, or even a similar level player gets a huge contract elsewhere they will look to improve their contract. Just because a player wants a new one doesn't mean they have to get it. Player power is fine, but the manager isn't helpless in these situations. The pre-concern's were added to make a user informed that a player is eventually going to have an issue. You now have an opportunity to nip it in the bud before it gets to an escalated stage. 

Do people basically want a 'my player is happy no matter what option'? (That's a genuine question by the way - do you want that?)

Is the interaction in-game perfect? We're well aware it's not as to make it perfect we have to have incredibly detailed AI for every single NPC, which is 99.9% of the game. We're working within the available system - if people have a way to better represent managing player concerns and issues we're always very open to hearing them via the Feature Request forums. 

But it kind of works weirdly with contracts for example if I have 1st team or key players in my team and they want to make a contract now its like I click and ask him what he wants then he tell me he was wondering about new contract but its fine because I ask him...and I had a young player barely like 3 stars worth like less than 5mln euro not that great yet for first team but I won the league and wanted him to get some match time in last matches because it didn't matter if I will draw or lose and he came asking about much better contract like 6 times more because he is 1st team regular lol :P

[LukasZ_VCF]

10 hours ago, mack4ever said:

I'd disagree with you completely about how necessary talking to your players is in the game.

My last 3 saves:

Liverpool - Purely to get used to the game, I won the league in my first season by 10 points, won the league with a record points tally, FA Cup, League Cup and Champions League in my second season, won the league, FA Cup and Champions League in my third season.

Leicester - Won the league by a point in my first season, won the league and reached Champions League quarter final in season 2, won both in season 3.

Sunderland - Won League 1 in season 1, Championship with a record points total in season 2 and finished 5th in the Premiership in season 3.

In all of those saves the total amount of player talks I've done has been damn near zero. About half a dozen times a season I'll criticise a player after a match, probably twice a month I'll praise or criticise a player for their training performance and once or twice a season I'll have to speak to a player who has developed a concern.

I have never had a problem with motivation, or unhappy players or anything else related to the players really.

Talking to the players all the time can help if you do it but it's not going to cause you any big problems if you don't.

what tactic do u use ?

[jackob]

14 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Nobody is pushing anything. Your description of what you wanted from FM was exactly what FMT is. It's NOT a mobile game. It's the PC version of FMT that you can play on a tablet, if you want. It has the same ME as the full fat FM and shares a lot of other modules as well, so very, very far from FMM, which is for mobile. All that was asked is "Did you try it?". There are plenty of older people playing FMT as well, including quite a few on this forum, so don't just be so ready to dismiss it. Based on your description, it was a perfectly valid question.

If you have issue to highlight, please do it, but it's best raised in the bugs forum with a save. You have highlighted a lot that doesn't seem like issues though? Complaining that a chat went well after you told a player you didn't have the money - as a lower league club? Telling a coach he was valued and the coach appreciating it and changing his mind? All sound very valid, unless you have reasons why they're not. Then we have an issue that's worth reporting.

Understood - but, as per my commentary above, it alarms me that FMT is so often used as a catch-all way of quashing any user feedback around the number of flabby, semi-redundant features that litter the full-fat title. 

------

To be clear, FMT strikes me as an eminently sensible, and indeed well-executed, example of market segmentation. SI have identified a portion of its user base who want something streamlined, fast, 'lite' and portable. The proposition delivers the goods for that particular market. All fine here. 

The issue is that I, and I suspect YUKON too, do not belong to that segment. We are, in fact, your CORE, hardcore FM lovers. We want the full works, the whole shebang. We want to give hundreds of hours. We want to totally immerse ourselves in the game world....
It's just we have some feedback about what that whole shebang looks like. We believe the whole shebang needs to trim down in some areas (hit the gym, lose the scar tissue from 10 year-old code) and build some new muscles in others (innovate around areas of strength). 

 

[jackob]

(YUKON btw sorry to drag you into my 'we' - I appreciate you may not agree 100% with everything I said. Was just trying to galvanise the point)